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Confirmed
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.26 13:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Confirmed on 26/08/2008 13:42:22
Edited by: Confirmed on 26/08/2008 13:42:04
There is an extreme imbalance that seems to exist in game that has created some logistical nightmares.
In 0.0 you have the great high end rocks of Arkanor, Bistot, and Crokite. They're very valuable, if you're in it for the ISK.
If you're in it to produce though, there is an extreme imbalance of the availability/quality of the lower end ores that produce the ever needed Trit, Isogen, and Mexallon.
For example capital ship production can easily consume 100m tritanium. To get those level of resources you would need to mine 35,000,000 units of Concentrated Veldspar.
The average spawn in 0.0 space of veldspar rocks in a 4 - 6 belt system may at most yield about 2,497,500 units of veldspar across the three class of roids.
I know there was discussion of changing the mechanics of belts in general which I don't know how I feel/agree with it, and there are mechanics that let you get ore from empire out to 0.0 or vice versa. However since the Rorqual can't be used in <0.4 you end up buying uncompressed minerals or uncompressed asteroids. If you need 100m of tritanium that's about 1 billion of volume. To move that level of tritanium out of empire and into 0.0 you would need to easily jump 10 freighter loads. The logistical chain for that is a bit of a nightmare, and economically unfeasible.
That's where the compression of minerals into items came from by building them into something small, shipping them, re-processing them, yet that was nerfed near the trinity release. The jump freighter was introduced as a supposed fix to this but it flat out doesn't hold enough to make it economical, never mind the cost of the ship itself.
I think what the challenge here is that while in 0.0 the Rorqual when used as a compression platform can take 16,000 m3 of arkonor and turn it into 800 m3 of compressed arkanor, there is nothing in empire that can do this. Sure in 0.0 you can compress 16,650 m3 of veld to 417 m3 of compressed veld but there isn't a veld shortage in empire, and it is not economical to do so in 0.0 compared to the value that arkonor, bistot, and crokite have value to compress and move to empire trit has no value such as that and no way to reduce the mass for logistical purposes.
So I guess this is a request to release the Orca that was mentioned so long ago.
I would think making something that could fit three mining links, and small tractors, yet hold a decent amount of ore and the ability to compress 'the low ends' such as the minerals that don't require refinery efficiency to specialize in (Veld, Scordite, Pyroxes, Omber, Hemorphite, jaspet, kernite) only.
I would envision it having a cargo hold of 20,000 m3 (half the rorqual's base) and only the special ability of being able to fit 3 mining links and industrial core, along with two highs for small tractor beams. I would think leaving the capital tractor & clone bay to the rorqual. Make it as about as maneuverable as an indy to give it half a chance to get away from pirates and a drone bay about half the size of the rorqual for some level of defense. you could do two lows, and 5 mid slots.
So this wouldn't be a 'capital' class ship requiring 'capital' skills. however it could require say Tactial Shield manipulation 4, shield operation 4, advanced starship 1, and mining barge 5 to fly the thing, and then the BPOs for the lows are supported by a new module but you can't compress anything that requires refinery efficiency.
This way, you would have empire loving folks able to put compressed ore up for sale and then null-sec loving folks the ability to move large amounts of un-refined ore to their respective manufacturing hubs.
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Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2008.08.26 15:03:00 -
[2]
Definitely supported, the Orca needs to be put back on the table.
I see a handful of possible market side effects, however:
Bringing ore compression and other mining logistics to Empire will make it easier for ISK farmers and macro miners to mine, which is bad. Empire ores and the minerals derived from them will go down in value as mining efficiency and capacity increase, which is bad for the honest empire miners.
On the other hand, making empire mining less lucrative will encourage more pilots to accept risk by migrating toward 0.0, which is overall desirable for game balance.
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Thomas Hardy is going to eat your brains. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.26 15:07:00 -
[3]
Your numbers are bad - 100m trit is 1 million m3, not 1 billion. That's a little over one freighter load.
Aside from that, I'd be interested in seeing something that could compress minerals in highsec for logistics purposes, like a Rorqual. For that matter, I'm not sure I'd be offended by the thought of Rorquals being like JFs and BOs, and being able to use gates, though I'd be careful with that idea.
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Fix the forums! |
Kumiko Kosshi
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Posted - 2008.08.26 16:04:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Your numbers are bad - 100m trit is 1 million m3, not 1 billion. That's a little over one freighter load.
If I read correctly, he was commenting on the volume of the veldspar containing 100million units of trit, not the direct volume of the trit itself.
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ManofFace
K.O.R.
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.08.26 16:14:00 -
[5]
Supported. Very good idea.
Now where's my $20 (j/king)
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To err is human,
to get caught is just plain stupid.
-Anonymous |
procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.08.26 16:36:00 -
[6]
why not do do something about the veld in 0.0. make it have like 5x-10x the refine rate instead of the 5% and 10% bonus. then it becomes practical to mine or at least less failure. atm most of my trit in 0.0 comes from rat loot.
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Confirmed
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.26 16:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: procurement specialist
why not do do something about the veld in 0.0. make it have like 5x-10x the refine rate instead of the 5% and 10% bonus. then it becomes practical to mine or at least less failure. atm most of my trit in 0.0 comes from rat loot.
The reason I didn't suggest a new roid is that I think it would open it up for abuse by macro mining.
There are lots of truesec -0.1 to -0.3 systems out there. If there aren't any major battles going on it's pretty easy to wander around and find spots where there are isk farming ratters that just sit there for days shooting <700m reward leaving all the wrecks. I can see something like a 5x or 10x the trit roid being beaten to death.
yes the orca can be abused the same way in empire. however, if someone wanted to put a concerted effort into stopping it you don't have to worry about making your way through a hostile power block to the 'uncharted' regions of 0.0 that no sov. exists to find them.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.26 18:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kumiko Kosshi
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Your numbers are bad - 100m trit is 1 million m3, not 1 billion. That's a little over one freighter load.
If I read correctly, he was commenting on the volume of the veldspar containing 100million units of trit, not the direct volume of the trit itself.
Yeah, but what idiot carries around veldspar? You dock up, refine, and move the trit. Well, unless you're Chribba, but the OP isn't.
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Fix the forums! |
procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.08.26 18:52:00 -
[9]
ok for completeness. i am a fan of a complete revamp of asteroids in eve. The sec status in a region where an asteroid first appears in will stay with normal ore. say 1.0 for veldspar and -.3 for arkonor. above that by .5 and you are in a a 50% yeild zone so 50% ark is up to .2. below that by .5 and you are in a 50% increased yeild zone. so down to .5 you have 150% yeild veld and down to -.8 you have 150% arkonor. at the end of each .5 band is another so from .5 to 0 veld is at say 2x. below that you have a progression.
the numbers are entierly made up and subject to balancing but the point is that the empire in more developed areas have systematically mined down the best of each asteroid until only poorer asteroids exist now. this would make low sec mining always more valuable than high sec mining because you can grab 1.5x veld instead of 1x veld if trit is the most profitable mineral to mine or switch to another. there will be sweet spots people who pay attention will capitalize on around .5 and 0 sec status and a reward for holding deeper truesec for miners instead of just ratters.
The whole thing shouldn't be too difficult to program if the current system uses sec status to determine the ore in the belts anyway.
this also makes sure that mining veld in 0.0 is a better source of tritanium than rats because that bothers me more than probably anything else. I can't mine any significant qty of trit for my production needs in my hulk but a few hours gives me the zyd and mega for a bs.
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Confirmed
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.26 19:05:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Confirmed on 26/08/2008 19:07:31
I appreciate your stance on completely revamping. However I think that's a separate topic.
What i'm asking for is a logistics issue more than a 'what rock can I shoot' or 'i want high value stuff in empire/not in empire' thing.
What I'm pointing to is this.
I need a ton (literally) of trit out in 0.0. Based on how roids spawn, it's impossible to mine a ton without taking down 3 - 4 systems.
In empire there is a large population of people that are happy to mine said ton as there is a higher ratio of veld rocks compared to 0.0.
333 Veld rocks refined = 1000 trit, or 10m3 of storage space.
So I need 100,000,000 units of trit, or 1,000,000 m3 of space.
However, if I could buy compressed ore in empire
1 compressed veld cube = 417 m3 of space in a hold.
Refined, it equals 500,000 units of trit taking up 5000 m3 of space.
To get 100,000,000 units of trit I would need 200 compressed veld cubes at 83400 m3 of space to transport.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.26 19:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Confirmed
333 Veld rocks refined = 1000 trit, or 10m3 of storage space.
So I need 100,000,000 units of trit, or 1,000,000 m3 of space.
However, if I could buy compressed ore in empire
1 compressed veld cube = 417 m3 of space in a hold.
Refined, it equals 500,000 units of trit taking up 5000 m3 of space.
To get 100,000,000 units of trit I would need 20 compressed veld cubes at 8340 m3 of space to transport.
Again, your math is a problem. If a compressed veld cube is 500k trit in 417 m3, then you'll need 200 of them, and 83,400 m3 of space.
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Fix the forums! |
Confirmed
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.26 19:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Again, your math is a problem. If a compressed veld cube is 500k trit in 417 m3, then you'll need 200 of them, and 83,400 m3 of space.
you caught me before my edit went through. :)
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Winchestori
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.27 07:27:00 -
[13]
supporting this cause :words:
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Padanemi
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Posted - 2008.09.04 13:19:00 -
[14]
gief orca :P
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Outo
Phoenix Propulsion Labs
Lost Sheep Domain
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Posted - 2008.09.05 04:41:00 -
[15]
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Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.09.05 06:18:00 -
[16]
Supported, kind of.
While I agree that the logistics of mining need a severe overhaul, I don't think the Orca is the way to go about doing that. The ore multiplier is a good idea that deserves implementation (so you can have like 8 grades of each ore, with the yield going up substatially as the system security goes down).
With the multiplier, there will be a reason to mine Veld in .6 systems. At the moment, aside from population, there is no reason to move to lower securities to mine ores available in the higher ones. This will also solve the problem mentioned above, as the Veld roids in 0.0 will be 2x - 5x as much yield.
The base yield could be the same, but higher and lower grades varied, even if on a set naming system. Therefore, in 0.0, you'd get Exquisite Veldspar [4x yield] but basic Arkanor; while in 0.9, you might have only base-grade Veldspar but also Polluted Arkanor [1% yield].
Honestly, while the Orca does sound kinda neat, it's guaranteed use in the hands of macrominers would become a nightmare for honest miners. I cannot either give support to this thread or malign it, but I simply think it needs a new method for achieving the much-desired goal.
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Cheap Dude
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Posted - 2008.09.05 06:26:00 -
[17]
Well.. I think we will see the Orca in the industrial patch in december. I am against moving large ammount of ore/mins in the universe.. Why? Because it destroys local markets in favor of 1 big universe wide market. If you ask me, they should remove all cargospace on jumpdrive able ships!
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procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.09.05 12:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cheap Dude
Well.. I think we will see the Orca in the industrial patch in december. I am against moving large ammount of ore/mins in the universe.. Why? Because it destroys local markets in favor of 1 big universe wide market. If you ask me, they should remove all cargospace on jumpdrive able ships!
then what use is a jump frieghter?
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SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:41:00 -
[19]
I always thought it was odd that 0.0 relied so heavily on Empire space. You can't actually fly out to 0.0 space, start a corp, start an alliance, get an outpost, and hold a system without HEAVY HEAVY logistics from Empire.
The simple fact that you need POS fuels which are sold by NPC makes 0.0 unrealistic to be honest. There is no reason why you need to go to Empire to BUY stuff to live in 0.0 space. But that's my opinion.
The thing the OP Brings up is just another reason why 0.0 is just not as attractive as it could be. There should be Capital Mining Lasers and Mining Fighters. CCP have said they want people to spread out and live lose in low/sec 0.0. Yet they also want them to be tethered to Empire.
For the OPs specific issue I would much rather see different levels of ore..
Veldspar ONLY in Empire. Denise Veldspar in Low Sec, Concentrated Veldspar in 0.0. Then push up the amount of Trit in each level. So maybe Double the Trit in Denise, and then double it again in Concentrated.
That way the 0.0 Veld roids will not be the size of planets :)
Amarr for Life |
procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.09.05 18:34:00 -
[20]
they would still be huge just not totally worthless in comparison. my problem is that ratting provides more lowends than mining. I don't think it is the ratting that is broken as it scales up rather well. you simply can't mine bs level quantities of veld.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.05 18:42:00 -
[21]
Originally by: SencneS
I always thought it was odd that 0.0 relied so heavily on Empire space. You can't actually fly out to 0.0 space, start a corp, start an alliance, get an outpost, and hold a system without HEAVY HEAVY logistics from Empire.
The simple fact that you need POS fuels which are sold by NPC makes 0.0 unrealistic to be honest. There is no reason why you need to go to Empire to BUY stuff to live in 0.0 space. But that's my opinion.
The thing the OP Brings up is just another reason why 0.0 is just not as attractive as it could be. There should be Capital Mining Lasers and Mining Fighters. CCP have said they want people to spread out and live lose in low/sec 0.0. Yet they also want them to be tethered to Empire.
For the OPs specific issue I would much rather see different levels of ore..
Veldspar ONLY in Empire. Denise Veldspar in Low Sec, Concentrated Veldspar in 0.0. Then push up the amount of Trit in each level. So maybe Double the Trit in Denise, and then double it again in Concentrated.
That way the 0.0 Veld roids will not be the size of planets :)
0.0 is the wild west in '700 and '800. From the est and civilization come glass, precision machinery pieces, chemicals for the ammunitions, dynamite, trains and steam boilers for the sawmills and so on, for a myriad of items, some small some big.
Some of them could be produced locally but the cost was prohibitive (you don't build a plant capable of building steam boilers to power 1 sawmill), for others it required expert personnel that was available in numbers only in the east, mostly it was because the production was convenient only if you could sell to a large number of costumers.
So it is pretty normal that 0.0 can't live at his top level without imports from empire and at the same time empire can't live at his top level without imports from 0.0.
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Kumiko Kosshi
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Posted - 2008.09.19 16:28:00 -
[22]
Um, station sim extraordinaire???
How about allowing for compression of minerals in station? However, apply production costs like heavy water to run the production line? (or some other fuel). Still require the industrial reconfiguration skill as with the industrial core, but allow for it to be done in station.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:57:00 -
[23]
90% of 0.0 have ore like empire imbalance ? FIx empire ore to be veld only and remove refining from empire missions.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 19:25:00 -
[24]
My concern with this is that it'll just accelerate the cap-ships arms race that's going on.
Capital ships should be hard to build, and take a lot of logistics. Given the massive wealth of the "top tier" alliances right now, if you remove most of the logistical challenges to popping them out like frigs it's just going to lead to even more server busting fleets than we have currently.
If the servers better supported these massive capital fleets, I'd be all for it. Given the current state of the servers, though, being able to casually field hundreds of caps doesn't make much sense.
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.09.19 22:48:00 -
[25]
The issue of capship accumulation I don't think is tied to economics. Instead, consider these two known issues:
1) Entropy isn't working on capitals because carriers effectively support more carriers and are impossible to attack without obscene DPS on the field. Another "broken" ship is the DDD Nano-Titan when used in a cyno-camping role.
2) There is no accumulation of other ships because the more that fly, the more that die. Entropy favors wrecks over ships. Only caps are seen as exceptions, and only in certain cases.
Economics aren't what create capital creep. Imbalances in Eve entropy do. Provide a capital sink and the entropy will go away such that capital production will balance capital consumption to a more healthy extent. At that point, 0.0 wealth can be raised without too much concern over creating a power imbalance between empire and 0.0 "empires."
OP is cool with me. Creating logistics nightmares doesn't make the game fun or fare. Let us move tons and tons of stuff and build and fly and get blown up as many times as we can stand. Grinding is not a fundamental principle of MMO's.
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Originally by: Red Raider
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
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Padanemi
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Posted - 2008.09.23 07:42:00 -
[26]
Let me ammend my original post (of two words).
The need is for buffing logistics, making it easier to move minerals from place A to place B.
There is no NEED to change belt compositions, JUST so that 0.0 corps can get trit easier on their own, in an unbalanced way towards high-sec. Same way as high-sec NEEDS the low-sec minerals, same way low-sec should NEED the massive amounts of high-sec minerals that are produced in high-sec.
You have a demand, there is a supply. Trade.
The bottleneck is at hauling all those minerals back and forth, so address that issue directly.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.23 15:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Padanemi
Let me ammend my original post (of two words).
The need is for buffing logistics, making it easier to move minerals from place A to place B.
There is no NEED to change belt compositions, JUST so that 0.0 corps can get trit easier on their own, in an unbalanced way towards high-sec. Same way as high-sec NEEDS the low-sec minerals, same way low-sec should NEED the massive amounts of high-sec minerals that are produced in high-sec.
You have a demand, there is a supply. Trade.
The bottleneck is at hauling all those minerals back and forth, so address that issue directly.
The bottleneck is that killing rats in 0.0 you get isk immediately. From the drops you can recover some juicy faction stuff that can be moved easily to a market.
Mining ore you need to mine it, refine it and then sell the minerals before you see any isk.
Even if the rewards were at the same level most people would prefer the first option as it require less work.
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Gotrek65
Brimstone Order
R-I-P
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Posted - 2008.09.24 12:25:00 -
[28]
supported
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Astria Tiphareth
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.09.29 13:16:00 -
[29]
Whilst I empathise with a fellow industrialist, I'd point out that in theory, transit of goods from empire to null-sec or vice-versa should be target number 1 for pirates, a popular reason for their existence, and the best reason for a logistics train beyond the obvious that your enemies should have logistics to attack.
Sadly, jump freighters render a lot of this moot, so I do struggle with the notion that says moving large quantities is too difficult - it's become a lot easier than it used to be.
I think I'd be quite keen on ore compression in empire and mass export to null-sec of low-end minerals (I could dust off my mining skills, and it'd give more of the industry side reasons to mine and fewer reasons to cart freighters around) if the actual transit to null-sec entailed some risk. Semi-supported, but with sympathy for the already endangered pirates. In fact, compressed ore would be smaller and easier to 'fence' and so supported, but with a desire for CCP to look at just what traffic low-sec pirates are supposed to be preying on.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Environmental Effects
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.09.30 19:17:00 -
[30]
Quote:
I would envision it having a cargo hold of 20,000 m3 (half the rorqual's base)
Damn. And how many low slots does it have? My Iteron 5 is 38,000m3. Just 3 low slots makes this better then a fully expanded iteron 5 with NO rigs. How many rigs does this have? 2-3? Damn this boy will be epic industrial ship. Easily better then all other ships. With the exceptions of freighters.
Quote:
along with two highs for small tractor beams.
Oh boy that smokes beauty. I can smoke out 2jetcans in my hulk in like half hour and then come in with this boy. Tractor them and take them both immediately. My iteron 5 can pick up 1 jetcan + about 11,000m3 and has 2 tractors. BEAUTY.
Quote:
Make it as about as maneuverable as an indy to give it half a chance to get away from pirates and a drone bay about half the size of the rorqual for some level of defense. you could do two lows, and 5 mid slots.
damn son. You are basically making the 30 days for iteron 5 worthless training. Go for this one right away.
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"There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Ranamar
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Posted - 2008.09.30 23:34:00 -
[31]
Someone could whack me over the head with a "balance" cluebat, if they have a reason to, but logically I don't see why you shouldn't be able to configure a normal fab (i.e. station industry) to do ore compression like a ship floating in space can. Of course, I also don't see why you shouldn't be able to produce just about anything (small, anyway...) with a Rorqual's Industrial Core, if it is "reconfiguring" itself into a factory...
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Trist Ian
Free Galactic Enterprises
Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.10.02 23:07:00 -
[32]
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Mika Katon
The Greater Goon
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.09 22:10:00 -
[33]
Supported.
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Molock Saronen
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Posted - 2008.10.10 11:35:00 -
[34]
Your main argument seems to be the ability to compress high-sec ore. Just wondering why one would need the Orca for that purpose. Wouldn't it be much easier to implement the possibility to use compression blueprints inside stations like another poster already suggested?
That way one could mine veldspar in high-sec, transport is to a station with a factory slot, compress it and then transport it to 0.0 to be decompressed.
Just wondering why the Orca comes in to play here.
(All for an Orca btw , but failing to see why it would be the best solution for this specific problem.) |
Minsk2k6
Veyr
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Posted - 2008.10.10 14:56:00 -
[35]
Supported for sure a empire baby Rorqual for those people who want to fly a rorqual but dont have the skills yet
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