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Yewan Kung-Fu Fighting Club 0	Posted - 2012.03.24 12:54:00 - [1] - Quote So no more getting out of a war declared on you. Small indi corps like mine get screwed either way: You pay to surrender or you pay to find an ally. Now you will see player owned griefing corps who a) start wars so that b) their silent partners can reap rewards from ally contracts. I get that the mechanics of the game design shouldn't allow an "out" in a sandbox game. On the other hand, the game should foster all play styles. While 70 percent or more like PvP, there are still some of us that just like to fly ships, research, make Isk etc...so... game tweaks to close a loophole which allows players to escape griefing but no tweak to actually remove the option to grief to begin with. Developer on record saying "yes we know that griefing will continue, but hopefully it will be more expensive and less incentive for it to happen"... Lots of evidence showing that a core group of players enjoy Eve because of griefing and evidence showing that usually ambivalent players will tend to grief when there are no consequences (lord of the flies effect). Definition of griefing: forcing another player (victim) to live with the consequence of the first players intention to cause harm or grief, sometimes for profit but not necessarily, thereby diluting the experience of the victim. Since certain game elements require a player owned corp (POS / tax control for instance), opting out of player owned corporation means giving up or diluting the game experience. Sounds like fun.
Phinger Kitsune Conglomerate 0	Posted - 2012.03.24 13:15:00 - [2] - Quote Take incursions....you are a War Target....no one will rep you. So say your funding your pvp from doing hi-se c incurions ....your game time is curtailed upon someone else just declaring war. There should be a mechanism to declare combat in Hi-sec.....but the penalty should be even higher for starting the war ...and if it is mutual war there is no financial penalty. Seriously agree that there are people who play who dont want pvp and are happy flying their ships. I started in eve years ago.....slowly expanded my skills joined a corp and was wardeced within a week of joining the corp....just to be griefed. Made for a miserable experience and one of the nails in the coffin for me to leave eve. I came back its dull in a NPC corp. joined a nullsec corp not long after having fun with fleet operations in incurions and ran into the wall of war decs. I lived with it but it was annoying......I could make money down in sanctums......but what i wanted to do was make money by doing fleet ops with groups of poeple that didnt involve being a merc/pirate. I finally quit went back to me and mate in a little two man corp and go run our incursions....and not even interested into going into a bigger corp with a the increasing magnitude of chance they will be wardecced. CCP dont get it that are huge swathes of players out in the mmo world that OPT OUT of pvp altogether. CCP want more subs......in their sandbox ....well the raw of nullsec and lowsec is where you can keep your sandbox and stop forcing stuff on players who want to reside in carebear Hi-sec.
scatter gun Legion of Nuggets 3	Posted - 2012.03.24 14:05:00 - [3] - Quote Empire space is not safe. Even without war decs, PVP HAPPENS! I am an empire carebear, I admit to the fact I live in high security space. But I am also aware I should NOT undock in a cruiser fitted with a-type energized adaptive nano membranes REGARDLESS of war dec status. I live in empire not because I want to opt out of PVP, I have an alt who blows up harbingers and hurricanes(mostly his own) on a fairly regular basis. I live in empire to avoid the politics and dedication required of being a nullsec resident. This game is almost COMPLETELY tied to PVP in one way or another. Market is completely player driven, by players for players AGAINST PLAYERS. Missions, paid for and provided by NPCS, but there are professional salvagers who make a solid living cleaning up someone elses leftovers, often without consent, raise your hand if youve ever tried attacking a ninja salvager raises hand. Incursions have fairly fierce amount of competition to get sites, many communities set high standards/requirements to get into their fleets to ensure optimal chances of WINNING contested sites. Mining, pending situations, can get pretty competitive, and I have seen wardecs go up due to over mining and disregarding the local miners. What other empire based facets of the game are there that can NOT be tied to PVP in one way or another? War decs are just one more mechanic that can be used for good(dealing with griefers being rude/mean) or to grief(people who allow themselves to be easy targets). If you want to opt out of PVP, you are in the wrong game as far as I am concerned. HOWEVER, if you do want to opt out of the war dec system, sit in NPC corps and pay the taxes(which would approximately cover losses inccured by PVP)
Te Tapunui Sleeping Dogs Awake 9	Posted - 2012.03.24 14:11:00 - [4] - Quote Whining little worms. WHY do you sign up for a game that is WIDELY spoken about in MMO circles as being harsh, then petition the creators day in and day out to CHANGE it to suit YOU? The established playerbase were attracted to eve BECAUSE its harsh. We enjoy the risks, because it makes the rewards so much sweeter. I also strongly disagree with the standard carebear argument of "move to lowsec/nullsec for REAL PVP". I personally believe the most skillful PVP is to be had in a highsec war. Its the last true bastion of solo PVP.
Se Kava Black Ops Ltd. 0	Posted - 2012.03.24 14:16:00 - [5] - Quote So, why not establish a huge hi-sec industrial alliance with most of the industrial corps in it? If your alliance controls 90% of production and market in hi-sec, griefers will run out of money pretty soon.
Tetragammatron Prime Pink Sockers 26	Posted - 2012.03.24 15:36:00 - [6] - Quote You can opt out of pvp with the new system by accepting terms of surrender which will most likely include a hefty isk payment.
Katarina Reid Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 134	Posted - 2012.03.24 15:43:00 - [7] - Quote just hide in npc corp. u wnt the benefit of having a corp defend it.
Callous Jade Narcissistic Ventures 15	Posted - 2012.03.24 17:19:00 - [8] - Quote Someone show this whiny little parasite the door. Dosnt WOW have a new expansion (swtor) you should be running off too?
Joyelle State War Academy Caldari State 6	Posted - 2012.03.24 17:41:00 - [9] - Quote There are a lot of alliances out there constantly looking for new corps. Check the alliance and corp recruitment part of the forums or ingame. It helps when you have friends and lots and lots of them. An alliance shouldn't consist of people working towards the same target but with people working towards similar goals so it pays to have pvp oriented corps in an alliance so that they can lead the way when the alliance gets wardecced.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 395	Posted - 2012.03.24 17:55:00 - [10] - Quote Don't forget that it costs more to declare war on larger corps, so even though they should be more able to defend themselves due to their extra members people are disincentivised to fight them due to the cost. So small corps who are less able to defend themselves can expect to be ground into the dirt much more often.
Sayyida al Hurra Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.03.24 20:43:00 - [11] - Quote Missed the panel. Gathered exiting corps will be tagged with alliance wars & new calculations and mechanisms for corp-on-corp wardecs. But have seen nothing explicit on corp-on-alliance or alliance-on-alliance wardecs. What's the news there?
Mechael Team Pizza Viro Mors Non Est 57	Posted - 2012.03.24 21:03:00 - [12] - Quote The only things in EVE that are not PvP are direct isk injections: mission rewards, incursion payouts, bounties from rats. The moment you even touch the market, congratulations you're a PvPer. If you don't want PvP, play a different game. Period. I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me.
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 773	Posted - 2012.03.24 21:35:00 - [13] - Quote Mechael wrote: The only things in EVE that are not PvP are direct isk injections: mission rewards, incursion payouts, bounties from rats. The moment you even touch the market, congratulations you're a PvPer. If you don't want PvP, play a different game. Period. Incursion payouts - you are competing with other players for the sites, which is economic PvP. Same thing with ratting in a system with other players attempting to also do ratting. Mission rewards, OTOH, are indeed mostly PvP-free, except for people who come into your mission pocket and interact with you in some fashion.
Zircon Dasher 87	Posted - 2012.03.24 22:10:00 - [14] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Incursion payouts - you are competing with other players for the sites, which is economic PvP. Same thing with ratting in a system with other players attempting to also do ratting. Mission rewards, OTOH, are indeed mostly PvP-free, except for people who come into your mission pocket and interact with you in some fashion. I have long thought missions needed more opportunities to engage in economic PVP. Something akin to the way incursions work.
Pulgy Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly 53	Posted - 2012.03.25 04:57:00 - [15] - Quote I approve. No range? No problem!Join the Church of the Holy BlasterGäó . A Hybrid religion.
lol fofo Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.03.25 05:27:00 - [16] - Quote looking at current dec shield alliances, maybe current decshield method is just for dropping unwanted wardec. would the decshield still works on the new wardec system ? , what happen if theres new version of decshield basically aiming to maximize the number of members just for making them so expensive to wardec? what stopping ndustrial alt corps, or small corps joining some kind permanent decshield alliance ? not really sure how alliance being managed and the mechanic of it, but i got the feeling this new wardec just switching the same issue to the opposite side, instead actually fixing the wardec mechanic.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service 5	Posted - 2012.03.25 05:30:00 - [17] - Quote Small scale wars are dead. 20mil+500K/member per week... yeah. And then the allies. Unlimited allies for the defender. You can be an ally in an unlimited number of wars. So instead of doing the Privateer thing of dec-ing everyone, you just become free allies with everyone. Unlimited wars at no cost. You declare war, you will end up at war with half of EvE.
Kira Vanachura Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1	Posted - 2012.03.25 10:04:00 - [18] - Quote My main is in a corp with 100-200 members total for our 'alliance' which mainly consists of our corp. Although we made the alliance to reduce wardecs, we still get wardecced regularly. Mostly by small corporations. Those 'PvP' corporations just want easy kills. When we assemble a fleet, they will not engage us. They just wait till we do missions, or mine. So we can't mission, mine, do incursions, transport goods etc. At the same time there is no PvP either. These wars are why many people quit. And why most of our members play other games in addition to Eve. Wars should be meaningfull. We have a POS. We should be able to say: come attack us, and if they don't the war gets invalidated. E.g. we send them a notification with location of our POS/Custom office and if they do not reinforce it in 48 hrs, we get out of the war and can do our stuff again. Would be even better if we get locations of enemy structures as well. You want war? You'll get it.
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 393	Posted - 2012.03.25 11:06:00 - [19] - Quote Yewan wrote: On the other hand, the game should foster all play styles. This is where you went wrong. EVE is not a mainstream theme park MMO offering rides for everyone 13 and up, EVE is a niche game, a dark and unforgiving universe where might makes right, and you only deserve what you can defend.
shal ri Zanzibar Land 10	Posted - 2012.03.25 11:17:00 - [20] - Quote there always seems to be a thread about a carebears point of view about the war dec sys . ok heres my point of view on wars since i do them often not for the reason to grief but for a controlled pvp battlefield that keeps it between me and you with out many outside factors. to give u situation that happens often, i dec you since i think that ur an active alliance with players that will give me a good fight. wat happens? every 1 stops logging in, drops corp within a day, stays docked,and/or loggs off when i show up in local even though i am the only one online in my corp. why do i dec corps/alliances? not for the easy kills. not to grief u. i dec u hoping for a good fight with both of us dieing saying GF atfer said engagement. the issuse with high sec is the griefer corp/alliances that use the same mind set as null bear alliances use. win at all costs. this is no fun for the carebears that try to fight and end up losing do to the high sec verson of a hot drop which would be A) logg in trap B) i have an army of repps that can dock at any point they want. now an earlier post was made that when thier alliance sets up a fleet to defend and fight thier war targets, the said targets dock. well i wonder how many they had and how may u had when this happened, no 1 is goin to fight u when u have recon plus dps plus logi. not goin to happen. now if it was a fair (lmfao fair funny thought) or even numbered fight then its a different story. some1 there needs to grow a pair of balls and start thinkin about how they can win with wat they have. as for ransoms. u would be surprised at how little war dec'ing corps talk to each other unless they are well known and/or try to build something. all in all we will just have to see how things are refined and wat its goin to be like once things come into play
Marcus McTavish EnC Heavy Industries The EnC Empire 38	Posted - 2012.03.25 11:21:00 - [21] - Quote If you plan on being a super fun mining corp that has a mining ops every other day, then you will get decced. Your just too good a target, and like a fox hunting a rabbit your will be killed. JOIN AND ALLIANCE!!! Dont make yourself look weak. Take it from the biggest group of idiots in the game, CFC. Numbers mean everything in EVE. If you dont, then: natural selection and my stuff sells for more. Win win?
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 777	Posted - 2012.03.25 13:44:00 - [22] - Quote Vladimir Norkoff wrote: And then the allies. Unlimited allies for the defender. You can be an ally in an unlimited number of wars. So instead of doing the Privateer thing of dec-ing everyone, you just become free allies with everyone. Unlimited wars at no cost. You declare war, you will end up at war with half of EvE. Which is not a fundamentally broken design like the Privateer thing was. The Privateers used it to turn large portions of hi-sec effectively into NPC-null because they wardec'd dozens of corps/alliances. Allowing the person that you wardec, to bring in unlimited allies can't be abused in the same manner. Because those allies can make a choice as to whether or not to enter the conflict, it can't be forced on them (although they might be tricked into doing so). It provides an interesting risk to being the aggressor corp in a hi-sec wardec - now you'll need to know whether that organization has friends, or the means to hire mercenaries. (I'm not saying that it won't ultimately need to be limited / balanced in some fashion. Such as making the "bring in ally" contract costing 50M ISK, or by limiting the number of ally contracts that you can have running in some fashion. Perhaps a new skill under Corporation Management that the CEO has to train. But I don't see it as being completely broken as planned.)
Kira Vanachura Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1	Posted - 2012.03.25 13:50:00 - [23] - Quote shal ri wrote: i dec u hoping for a good fight with both of us dieing saying GF atfer said engagement. You dec me against my will. And you hope I will give you a good fight. I do not want you to extend this war. I will not give you what you want.
Roime Shiva Furnace 308	Posted - 2012.03.25 14:01:00 - [24] - Quote lol @ getting good fights from hisec pilots Just fly out in the goddamn lowsec, there are good fights to be had every night and you don't have to spend a penny on wardecs. Sometimes you don't even have to find a fight, it finds you!
Cephelange du'Krevviq Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn 44	Posted - 2012.03.25 14:21:00 - [25] - Quote shal ri wrote: there always seems to be a thread about a carebears point of view about the war dec sys . ok heres my point of view on wars since i do them often not for the reason to grief but for a controlled pvp battlefield that keeps it between me and you with out many outside factors. to give u situation that happens often, i dec you since i think that ur an active alliance with players that will give me a good fight. Except the impression is that you are a very small minority of the war-deccing population.
Eryn Velasquez Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.03.25 17:15:00 - [26] - Quote As far as i see this now, there won't be so dramatic changes. The price rises, okay. Everything gets more expensive, plexes were at 300m some month ago, now they are near 500. But, instead of calculating the price like XX ISK + XX ISK per member, it should be: difference between Corp A (agressor) and Corp B (target) The bigger A and the smaller B, the more expensiv it should be to declare war. Perhaps even the actual killboard should be a reference to calculate. That would make it unattractive to declare war on small mining-corps or R&D-corps. I also see no problem with allies. The defender probably has done good political work, why should'nt it be possible to get help from the friends. And the agressor - if he finds another corp which also declares war to his target, were's the problem?
Jessie-A Tassik Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.03.25 17:42:00 - [27] - Quote CCP is very, very fortunate that everyone else is to stupid to make a spaceship MMO. This includes CCP, of course, because they chose to take the money from EVE and build two humanoid vs. humanoid MMOs. Congrats all. My faith in human nature is being ground into the dirt.
shal ri Zanzibar Land 12	Posted - 2012.03.25 20:59:00 - [28] - Quote Kira Vanachura wrote: shal ri wrote: i dec u hoping for a good fight with both of us dieing saying GF atfer said engagement. You dec me against my will. And you hope I will give you a good fight. I do not want you to extend this war. I will not give you what you want. thats the issuse with decs u think if u give a good fight that the war will never end. no. if u dont fight i dec u for longer. thats when i start to grief. give me 7 days of damn good fights and i wont have a need to dec u forever since after said period of time i will have to go and grind some isk to cover the loses during war. now if u were to fight for 7 days and said corp still kept the war goin then there is an understandable reason y u dont want to fight. i mean who wants to fight when they are tired? i know i dont.
Archdaimon Merchants of the Golden Goose 14	Posted - 2012.03.25 22:45:00 - [29] - Quote The way I see it wardeccing high sec corps as a way of making money (or griefing) should be possible. However we need to beware of several things. 1) It is not just a matter of "not liking pvp". As has been mentioned a lot of new players end in situations where the wardeccers either dock when not sure of "win" or just continue for ever. It is NOT funny for a new player to be forced to dock up for months and the "take a rifter and fight back" is just ******** against tengu's what not. 2) New player corps actually chosing to fight back is most often doing themselves a disservice. Giving people, who are looking for a fight, a fight is not a good way to make them stop the war. Dock! Cover! is. This results in very few interesting high sec wars as the following are the most likely scenarios: 1) The defenders are able to give a fight hence the attackers dock up. (And play with their alts). No fight. 2) The defenders are unable to fight back, hence dock up. (But as a new player have no alts, and will probably leave the game). No fight. 3) The defenders don't care and get ganked again and gain losing immense amount of money which again results in new players leaving the game. No decent fights. 4) The defenders call in allies and spend millions they don't have on defending themselves. The war deccers end the war. hurr. What can be done about it? Not much, but the way I see it the only way a war should be able to end was that either side surrenders. That way allies can actually have an effect. That way attackers will still dock up, but at least will be forced to do so for longer.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service 6	Posted - 2012.03.26 00:22:00 - [30] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Which is not a fundamentally broken design like the Privateer thing was. The Privateers used it to turn large portions of hi-sec effectively into NPC-null because they wardec'd dozens of corps/alliances. Oh you will get absolutely no argument from me that the Privateer model was utterly broken. But the thing is, unlimited allies only for the defender breaks the war system. Because the aggressor will be quickly drowned in a sea of free "mercs" joining the defenders side. Don't think there are many people that are going to pay 20mil+500K/member per week to be blobbed out like that. And there are going to be TONS of free "mercs"... and if I'm still playing after Inferno (and that's a big IF at this point), I'm gonna be one of them. Cuz all other limited hi-sec PvP is effectively dead.

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