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Black holes capturing light. Hows does that work?

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Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:25:00 - [1] Bugged me for years. I was told light has no mass and black holes have huge gravity. I know gravity effects mass. Light doesn't have any.. why does it still get trapped? I'm guessing the gravity is warping space time so the photons gets stuck? Bit weird. Or do photon's really have mass? Anyone have a simple answer?
ThaDollaGenerale The Priory	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:31:00 - [2] Light is considered energy AND matter. i.e. it has particles (matter) that are transmitted in waves. Their weight is extremely negligble, but it's there. Black holes have so much gravity that they managed to pull them in via the warping of space time. ...I think. I studied biology in college.
kor anon Amarr Grail Seekers	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:33:00 - [3] Originally by: ThaDollaGenerale Light is considered energy AND matter. i.e. it has particles (matter) that are transmitted in waves. Their weight is extremely negligble, but it's there. Black holes have so much gravity that they managed to pull them in via the warping of space time. ...I think. I studied biology in college. I dont think this is right. In fact light continues to go in a straight line, but the space around it warps so that the light appears to be caught. Something along those lines, i cant remember exactly
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:41:00 - [4] Originally by: kor anon Originally by: ThaDollaGenerale Light is considered energy AND matter. i.e. it has particles (matter) that are transmitted in waves. Their weight is extremely negligble, but it's there. Black holes have so much gravity that they managed to pull them in via the warping of space time. ...I think. I studied biology in college. I dont think this is right. In fact light continues to go in a straight line, but the space around it warps so that the light appears to be caught. Something along those lines, i cant remember exactly Yeah, he's not right, photons have no mass. You're basically right, Einstein's gravitation is a curving of spacetime, not a force. We say light follows a null geodesic. Geodesics generalise the concept of straight lines to curved space, for example a line drawn on the surface of a sphere.
Dan Glebitts Blackhole Militia	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:44:00 - [5] I would imagine it like pulling a plug in a sink. The water being space itself. Gravity warps space so that when the straight beam of light passes by it is pulled in, most probably circling the proverbial plug hole until it is gobbled up. The same effect can be seen around large celestrial bodies. Light is bent around the object as it passes. But there "plug hole" isnt large enough to suck it in. In fact if im correct it is how they found the first planets orbiting other systems. That would be my laymans explanation of my limited knowledge of physics.
Keta Min Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:45:00 - [6] Linkage
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:52:00 - [7] Anything with zero mass travels at infinite velocity. But, from our frame of reference, light doesn't. So you know there's something screwy there from the outset. It's obviously hax.
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Crumplecorn Anything with zero mass travels at infinite velocity. This is incorrect. Particles with zero mass move at the speed of light.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:01:00 - [9] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/09/2008 11:04:25 Photons have no mass so they're not affected by gravity however a black hole causes an infinite curvature in the fabric of space-time. It is bent in itself and light cannot escape it.
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:04:00 - [10] seeing as how we allready have a black hole thread going i to have question seeing as how black holes are cloapes stars, are they literally a hole in the sence that we think of them, or is it still the star. just collapsed into a very small point and every bit of matter it sucks up gets added to its own mass?
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:04:00 - [11] Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 11:04:07 Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/09/2008 11:03:50 Photons have no mass so they're not affected by gravity however a black hole causes an have infinite curvature in the fabric of space-time. It is bent in itself and light cannot escape it. sigh Read my post above. Light IS affected by gravity, but gravity is not a force. Space doesn't have to be infinitely curved to affect light, all objects with mass will do it.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:08:00 - [12] Originally by: Leonora Webb Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 11:04:07 Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/09/2008 11:03:50 Photons have no mass so they're not affected by gravity however a black hole causes an have infinite curvature in the fabric of space-time. It is bent in itself and light cannot escape it. sigh Read my post above. Light IS affected by gravity, but gravity is not a force. Space doesn't have to be infinitely curved to affect light, all objects with mass will do it. And wtf did I say? Jesus
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:11:00 - [13] Edited by: Arvald on 01/09/2008 11:12:06 Originally by: Leonora Webb Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 11:09:18 Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 11:04:07 Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/09/2008 11:03:50 Photons have no mass so they're not affected by gravity however a black hole causes an have infinite curvature in the fabric of space-time. It is bent in itself and light cannot escape it. sigh Read my post above. Light IS affected by gravity, but gravity is not a force. Space doesn't have to be infinitely curved to affect light, all objects with mass will do it. Originally by: Arvald seeing as how black holes are cloapes stars, are they literally a hole in the sence that we think of them, or is it still the star. just collapsed into a very small point and every bit of matter it sucks up gets added to its own mass? The latter, essentially. All the mass is compacted in to a point of zero volume, and therefore infinite density. This is the spacetime singularity at the centre of the black hole. Of course it's been theorized that black holes can evaporate, though. Bear in mind this is all theory. Many physicists have a lot of trouble with black holes (we hate infinity), some don't believe in them at all. ok thanks for clearing that up for me also this thread made me think of this song
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:13:00 - [14] Originally by: YouGotRipped And wtf did I say? Jesus Huh? Well you said some things that were incorrect so I corrected them for you. Firstly that light is not affected by gravity, and secondly the implication that only infinite spacetime curvature can cause light to bend.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Leonora Webb Originally by: YouGotRipped And wtf did I say? Jesus Huh? Well you said some things that were incorrect so I corrected them for you. Firstly that light is not affected by gravity, and secondly the implication that only infinite spacetime curvature can cause light to bend. Hello? Check the OP. I merely adapted to the context, however you Eve playing pet physicists know only one version the one in the books and that's it. So keep pasting.
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:29:00 - [16] Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 11:29:14 I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. If you're gonna write a laymans explanation, you should say things that are actually correct. I think you have some misconceptions, is all. There's no need for the aggresive stance, we're all learning here. For future reference, I'm a physics post-graduate student, but I did not specialise in anything relating to gravitation for my degree. I did computational modelling, looking in to magnetic fields in the solar corona. My phd is on non-linear optics. What I write here comes mostly from my head, with some background reference if I'm unsure of something.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Leonora Webb For future reference, I'm a physics post-graduate student, but I did not specialise in anything relating to gravitation for my degree. I assure you this particular info does not require a specialization in gravitation etc etc.
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:39:00 - [18] Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 11:40:17 That's why I wrote "for future reference". I wouldn't expect to have to go in to the complexities of Einstein gravitation on a game forum, the subject is immense. I'm merely outlining where my main interests and areas of research are. Anyway this is like arguing with a brick wall, I'm stopping now.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Leonora Webb Originally by: Crumplecorn Anything with zero mass travels at infinite velocity. This is incorrect. Particles with zero mass move at the speed of light. Read past the first sentence before responding. o/
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:23:00 - [20] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/09/2008 12:23:45 Originally by: Leonora Webb Anyway this is like arguing with a brick wall, I'm stopping now. But I thought we were doing this for the sake of arguing.
Louis deGuerre Gallente Federation Zone Operations Command	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:33:00 - [21] All objects with mass (so yes, even you !) curve space. Light always follows a straight line in space, always travelling at the same speed of about 300.000 km/sec. It will only appear to deviate from a straight path if it passes close to a very massy object which can curve space significantly. Acutally the light is still going straight, but it follows a straight path in curved space. We've observed our sun during eclipses and stars behind it seem to be in the wrong place if their light passes very near the sun. In fact, the stars are just were they should be, it just appears to us that they've moved as their light has followed a curved path to us due to the sun's gravity curving the space around it. Another example is supermassive galaxies, usually quasars, which curve light around them so a galaxy behind them appear above AND below them and sometimes even to both sides as well. A black hole has such massive gravity that it not just curves space, it actually rips it into a whirlpool. Anything coming too close is doomed as it will get sucked in. When light comes to close a straight line is an infinite spiral down the sink and it can also never escape. We don't really know what happens then as our math fails when dealing with inifinities like singularities. Which is why we can theorize our universe backward to a tiny fraction of a second a second of the beginning of the universe, but not the actual start, when the universe was infinitely small and infinitely dense.
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Leonora Webb Originally by: Crumplecorn Anything with zero mass travels at infinite velocity. This is incorrect. Particles with zero mass move at the speed of light. Read past the first sentence before responding. o/ Oh, I did. The rest of your post is fine, your first sentence is indeed incorrect, though. Anything with zero mass travels at the speed of light, not infinite speed.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Leonora Webb Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Leonora Webb Originally by: Crumplecorn Anything with zero mass travels at infinite velocity. This is incorrect. Particles with zero mass move at the speed of light. Read past the first sentence before responding. o/ Oh, I did. The rest of your post is fine, your first sentence is indeed incorrect, though. Anything with zero mass travels at the speed of light, not infinite speed. So what speed, pray tell, does light do in its own reference frame?
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Leonora Webb Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Leonora Webb Originally by: Crumplecorn Anything with zero mass travels at infinite velocity. This is incorrect. Particles with zero mass move at the speed of light. Read past the first sentence before responding. o/ Oh, I did. The rest of your post is fine, your first sentence is indeed incorrect, though. Anything with zero mass travels at the speed of light, not infinite speed. Well it is infinite speed from its own frame of reference.
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:45:00 - [25] Originally by: Crumplecorn So what speed, pray tell, does light do in its own reference frame? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The speed of light is constant in all reference frames.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Louis deGuerre Which is why we can theorize our universe backward to a tiny fraction of a second a second of the beginning of the universe, but not the actual start, when the universe was infinitely small and infinitely dense. Oh, I got that... The singularity, created within a black hole, begins to expand. Upon reaching a critical mass/density, what are known as "Big Bang" events, occur. These happen fairly continuously, since universes are very adept at producing black holes. As a result, there are an unimaginable number of universes in our local multi-verse, alone.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Leonora Webb Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 12:57:45 Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 12:55:51 Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 12:55:34 Originally by: Crumplecorn So what speed, pray tell, does light do in its own reference frame? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The speed of light is constant in all reference frames. edit: Oh I think you're referring to time and length dilation then? Where, if a photon could see, it'd arrive at it's destination immediately. I see where you're coming from. another edit: These things are so much easier to talk about in real life :) I think that only objects with mass are subject to time/length dialation as they accelerate towards C. Light has no mass.
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Karii Ildarian Originally by: Louis deGuerre Which is why we can theorize our universe backward to a tiny fraction of a second a second of the beginning of the universe, but not the actual start, when the universe was infinitely small and infinitely dense. Oh, I got that... The singularity, created within a black hole, begins to expand. Upon reaching a critical mass/density, what are known as "Big Bang" events, occur. These happen fairly continuously, since universes are very adept at producing black holes. As a result, there are an unimaginable number of universes in our local multi-verse, alone. Citation Needed.
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:09:00 - [29] Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 13:10:03 Originally by: Karii Ildarian I think that only objects with mass are subject to time/length dialation as they accelerate towards C. Hmmm, I think distances can contract, at speed. Such as the famous muon experiment, in the muon-frame, the distance the muon has to travel is contracted. At the speed of light, the gamma factor becomes infinite, so lengths are reduced to zero. Difficult to say, therefore, what the photon thinks it is doing, because if you could be in that reference frame, you'd arrive at your destination but you wouldn't have actually travelled any distance. Ahh, life is so much more comfortable sitting still.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:11:00 - [30] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Karii Ildarian Originally by: Louis deGuerre Which is why we can theorize our universe backward to a tiny fraction of a second a second of the beginning of the universe, but not the actual start, when the universe was infinitely small and infinitely dense. Oh, I got that... The singularity, created within a black hole, begins to expand. Upon reaching a critical mass/density, what are known as "Big Bang" events, occur. These happen fairly continuously, since universes are very adept at producing black holes. As a result, there are an unimaginable number of universes in our local multi-verse, alone. Citation Needed. You got a better explanation?

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