EVE Search - Black holes capturing light. Hows does that work?

All Channels

Out of Pod Experience

Black holes capturing light. Hows does that work?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:22:00 - [31] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 01/09/2008 13:29:36 Originally by: Leonora Webb Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 12:57:45 Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 12:55:51 Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 12:55:34 Originally by: Crumplecorn So what speed, pray tell, does light do in its own reference frame? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The speed of light is constant in all reference frames. edit: Oh I think you're referring to time and length dilation then? Where, if a photon could see, it'd arrive at it's destination immediately. I see where you're coming from. Yes. And the relevance to the question at hand is that gravity should have no effect on photons because they have no mass, yes this also means they should have infinite speed, but they only do from their own (theoretical) reference frame, not anyone else's, so the "photons are massless and so should behave thusly" line of argument can be shown to not work. Here's a question: Does time go backwards inside the event horizon of a singularity? Beyond the event horizon the light cone is tilted such that all lines lead to the singularity. Is it tilted so far that things can go back in time?
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:36:00 - [32] Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 13:38:44 Good question. I don't know the answer, to be honest. I know there's some dreadfully weird things that can happen, but I don't know the detail. I suppose I could visualise such a situation where a light-cone is tilted that far, hard to say what that implies. One of my professors loves this kind of thing, I'll have to ask him when I return. I also know someone personally (one of the top scientists in his field) who refuses to believe in black holes, they're still a contreversial subject. We need an in-game physics channel :) Maybe there is one already...
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:40:00 - [33] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/09/2008 13:44:37 Originally by: Leonora Webb Good question. I don't know the answer, to be honest. hahah I do. But you'll have to beg. It's quite a lame question actually.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:59:00 - [34] Edited by: Akita T on 01/09/2008 14:03:01 I can only at most of you. Ok, slowly, basic "what we think we know today about photons", semi-classic interpretation (bit of photon bla bla, mostly newtonian stuff). Photons have no REST mass (or, at least they are assumed to have none, because they don't exist at speeds lower than c). In their own reference frame, photons might have some mass, or they might not... but they have zero speed (in its own reference frame, everything has zero speed for itself, duuh). For all intents and purposes, for a human observer (aided by whatever devices you want), they are pure (kinetic) energy that behaves similar to what a particle would behave when interacting with other particles. The "theoretical" mass of the photon (for impulse/energy calculations when it interacts with other particle and BEHAVES like a particle, to some degree) can be calculated with E=mc^2, where E=hc/wavelength, so mcc=hc/wavelength, therefore m = h/(cwavelength) = h*frequency/c (here h is Planck's constant). If manage to leech enough energy out of the photon (decrease frequency / increase wavelength) so that the photon would have to "dip" below the speed of light, the photon ceases to exist. You can only leech energy in discreete quantities (quanta), so there is such a thing as "the weakest possible photon", and there's a limited number of photon energies between two given frequencies. So... how does all this black hole mumbo jumbo come into this ? Simple as pie, actually. Due to how photons interact with regular particles, for each individual photon, you have a certain (theoretical/interaction) mass, derived from their (kinetic) energy, which depends on frequency... the higher the frequency, the larger the "fake mass". In order to "escape" a gravity well, any particle has to SHED kinetic energy (into potential energy) depending on how much mass it has. A black hole is simply a gravity well so powerful, that the photons would have to shed MORE kinetic energy than they already have in order to escape it... and their frequency doesn't really come into this, because their "fake mass" is larger the more kinetic energy they carry, so all frequencies are affected equally bad. So, there you go, the definition of a black hole (how massive a black hole has to be to be considered a black hole) and the explanation why photons are "trapped". I say "trapped", because they don't just vanish... they keep "spinning" around the black hole, (almost//theoretically) never leaving its gravity well... so, to an outside observer, it's as if they were "sucked" into it.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.09.01 14:00:00 - [35] After a five hour photoshop session, I give the op an explanation... IN PICTURE FORMAT! Clickeh. Basically, the light gets pulled in because the space which it travels in is too much of a up-hill for it to get over it. So it bends and bends further into the sinqularity. I'm not a physicsist, since physics never works anyway (nyah nyah), so feel free to correct any mess ups in the pic.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.01 14:06:00 - [36] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/09/2008 14:06:37 Originally by: Akita T Due to how photons interact with regular particles, for each individual photon, you have a certain (theoretical/interaction) mass, derived from their (kinetic) energy, which depends on frequency... the higher the frequency, the larger the "fake mass". In order to "escape" a gravity well, any particle has to SHED kinetic energy (into potential energy) depending on how much mass it has. A black hole is simply a gravity well so powerful, that the photons would have to shed MORE kinetic energy than they already have in order to escape it... and their frequency doesn't really come into this, because their "fake mass" is larger the more kinetic energy they carry, so all frequencies are affected equally bad. So, there you go, the definition of a black hole (how massive a black hole has to be to be considered a black hole) and the explanation why photons are "trapped". I say "trapped", because they don't just vanish... they keep "spinning" around the black hole, (almost//theoretically) never leaving its gravity well... so, to an outside observer, it's as if they were "sucked" into it. A quite long description of the Doppler effect and a faint shot at Hawking radiation.
Leonora Webb Gallente CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.01 14:07:00 - [37] Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 14:07:20 Originally by: Great Artista I'm not a physicsist, since physics never works anyway (nyah nyah), so feel free to correct any mess ups in the pic. I resemble that remark! Anyhow, that is a rather nice picture :) Akita, also a good post. I've learnt to not feed the troll, now.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.01 14:15:00 - [38] Originally by: Leonora Webb Edited by: Leonora Webb on 01/09/2008 14:07:20 Originally by: Great Artista I'm not a physicsist, since physics never works anyway (nyah nyah), so feel free to correct any mess ups in the pic. I resemble that remark! Anyhow, that is a rather nice picture :) Akita, also a good post. I've learnt to not feed the troll, now. When you go to see your teacher don't forget to start with "I know this sounds lame but". Aside from that you are excused.
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.01 14:25:00 - [39] Originally by: Leonora Webb Originally by: Crumplecorn Anything with zero mass travels at infinite velocity. This is incorrect. Particles with zero mass move at the speed of light. Are we so sure of that? If you are observing those same zero mass particles at 99.9999% the speed of light, how fast are they going?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.01 14:30:00 - [40] Originally by: Sharupak Originally by: Leonora Webb Originally by: Crumplecorn Anything with zero mass travels at infinite velocity. This is incorrect. Particles with zero mass move at the speed of light. Are we so sure of that? If you are observing those same zero mass particles at 99.9999% the speed of light, how fast are they going? The speed of light. My point was referencing their own reference frame.
Vek NaVek	Posted - 2008.09.01 14:48:00 - [41] Oh Akita T, is there anything you don't know. Help me Akita T, you're my only hope.
Akiba Penrose The Movement	Posted - 2008.09.01 14:58:00 - [42] Maybe this can help you in understanding the complexity of particles: Double-slit experiment Wikipedia Double slit experiment made easy by Dr.Quantum (youtube) Not a direct answer to your question, but still relevant.
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.01 15:11:00 - [43] Thanks for some very interesting replies. For a moment there I thought it was going to decend into mud slinging but.. it seems to have worked out quite well. I had heard the frequency shift stuff before a long time ago too. The photoshop diagram helped get my head around the curved space issues. I wonder how quantum entanglement is effected when one entangled photon goes in, and the other stays outside.... anyone?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.01 15:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Dr Slaughter I wonder how quantum entanglement is effected when one entangled photon goes in, and the other stays outside.... anyone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.01 15:29:00 - [45] Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 01/09/2008 15:29:33 Originally by: Crumplecorn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox Bloody hell.. just when I thought I was starting to 'get it'.
Zalathar Minmatar Stellar Research Incorporated DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.09.01 15:31:00 - [46] where it gets interesting is that you can theoretically put a photon in orbit of a black hole. I find this facsinating as it is delicioulsy counter intuitive to people without a layman's knowlege in physics, and that it is just incredibly neat. On to the main subject, it is not gravity as a force that affects the photon, its rather the relativististic warping of space time. The drawing is a very good visual explanation fo that. If you want an easy to do metaphore, image a mattress. this will be spacetime. then put a heavy object on your spacetime mattress, it will be surrounded by a dent or depression in the mattress. thats the space time being warped by mass. then role a marble along the mattress, and if it gets to the dip it will roll in, and stay in. thats gravitational attraction. You may consider that an awful bastardisation of science, but its a good way of explaining it, and was used to demonstrate space time distortion by one of the great astophysicists, though i cant remeber who.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.01 15:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Zalathar where it gets interesting is that you can theoretically put a photon in orbit of a black hole. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_sphere
Sikander 2	Posted - 2008.09.01 16:06:00 - [48] Ok, heres MY explanation : The black hole is actually a gingerbread house in a fairytale and light goes in to eat the gingerbread but gets cooked by a wicked witch. Something like that anyway
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.01 16:42:00 - [49] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Zalathar where it gets interesting is that you can theoretically put a photon in orbit of a black hole. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_sphere I liked you better before you started posting in this thread. Now I've got lots of interesting reading to do... Hey Zalathar, talking about bastardization of science.. so if the black hole was f.. err.. a large hungry person with poor mental control, and the photons were pies.. I don't fancy the chances of them (the pies) orbiting for very long...
Technomagez Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.01 17:23:00 - [50] Originally by: Dr Slaughter Bugged me for years. I was told light has no mass and black holes have huge gravity. I know gravity effects mass. Light doesn't have any.. why does it still get trapped? I'm guessing the gravity is warping space time so the photons gets stuck? Bit weird. Or do photon's really have mass? Anyone have a simple answer? Chuck Norris is sitting inside the black hole, sucking in all the light with a straw...
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.01 17:26:00 - [51] Originally by: Technomagez Originally by: Dr Slaughter Bugged me for years. I was told light has no mass and black holes have huge gravity. I know gravity effects mass. Light doesn't have any.. why does it still get trapped? I'm guessing the gravity is warping space time so the photons gets stuck? Bit weird. Or do photon's really have mass? Anyone have a simple answer? Chuck Norris is sitting inside the black hole, sucking in all the light with a straw... Sweet, now someone post up with a rick roll so we can hit that wicket!

Pages: 1 [2] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.