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Zara Skyray
Caldari DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.02 14:00:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zara Skyray on 02/09/2008 14:01:53 The disadvantages of shield tanking in PvP have been well known for as long as I have been in EVE, and largely boil down to the fact that Warp Disruptors, Scramblers, Webbers and Microwarpdrives - modules that are considered essential for PvP - take up midslots, which shield tankers need for their tank. In contrast, armor tankers, who use lowslots for their tanks, generally have free midslots to spare for these essential modules.
To address part of this problem (in a balanced way) I propose a new module be created:
Prototype Warp Disruption Generator Range = 20km Warp Scramble strength = 2 Requires Propulsion Jamming IV Cap Usage = 5-10cap/s (balance point) Fitting Requirements = 2 pg, 60 CPU (balance point)
Possible Objections:
"Won't this make Caldari overpowered?" No. While this would certainly make Caldari more viable in PvP, the fitting requirements and cap usage of this new module would make it difficult to use on most current Caldari fits. A passive drake would have to give up 1-2 Shield Power Relays in order to remain cap stable and either fit a CPU Upgrade or give up a missile launcher to handle the additional CPU required to make the module work. Ravens and other Caldari ships with extra highslots would be similarly affected. Many traditionally passive tanked ships may have to go for an active tank in order to fit this module effectively.
Furthermore, giving shield tanking ships a highslot tackle does not miraculously fix all their problems - MWDs, Webbers and Cap Boosters still compete for valuable midslots. A Caldari pilot would either need to further sacrifice their tank to fit these modules, or would have to rely upon other ships to fill these roles.
Doesn't this change just boost Caldari at the expense of everyone else? No. This boost would also aid Minmatar shield tankers, and make any shield tank PvP ship more viable and enjoyable.
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Zara Skyray
Caldari DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.02 14:00:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Zara Skyray on 02/09/2008 14:01:53 The disadvantages of shield tanking in PvP have been well known for as long as I have been in EVE, and largely boil down to the fact that Warp Disruptors, Scramblers, Webbers and Microwarpdrives - modules that are considered essential for PvP - take up midslots, which shield tankers need for their tank. In contrast, armor tankers, who use lowslots for their tanks, generally have free midslots to spare for these essential modules.
To address part of this problem (in a balanced way) I propose a new module be created:
Prototype Warp Disruption Generator Range = 20km Warp Scramble strength = 2 Requires Propulsion Jamming IV Cap Usage = 5-10cap/s (balance point) Fitting Requirements = 2 pg, 60 CPU (balance point)
Possible Objections:
"Won't this make Caldari overpowered?" No. While this would certainly make Caldari more viable in PvP, the fitting requirements and cap usage of this new module would make it difficult to use on most current Caldari fits. A passive drake would have to give up 1-2 Shield Power Relays in order to remain cap stable and either fit a CPU Upgrade or give up a missile launcher to handle the additional CPU required to make the module work. Ravens and other Caldari ships with extra highslots would be similarly affected. Many traditionally passive tanked ships may have to go for an active tank in order to fit this module effectively.
Furthermore, giving shield tanking ships a highslot tackle does not miraculously fix all their problems - MWDs, Webbers and Cap Boosters still compete for valuable midslots. A Caldari pilot would either need to further sacrifice their tank to fit these modules, or would have to rely upon other ships to fill these roles.
Doesn't this change just boost Caldari at the expense of everyone else? No. This boost would also aid Minmatar shield tankers, and make any shield tank PvP ship more viable and enjoyable.
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kibbeard
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2008.09.02 14:06:00 -
[3]
Hi, I'm not sure you play eve-online so you may not have realised this. Low slots, which are used for armour tank, are also used for damage mods.
Armour tankers choose between gank and tank. Caldari choose between tackle and tank.
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kibbeard
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2008.09.02 14:06:00 -
[4]
Hi, I'm not sure you play eve-online so you may not have realised this. Low slots, which are used for armour tank, are also used for damage mods.
Armour tankers choose between gank and tank. Caldari choose between tackle and tank.
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Zara Skyray
DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.02 14:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: kibbeard Hi, I'm not sure you play eve-online so you may not have realised this. Low slots, which are used for armour tank, are also used for damage mods.
Armour tankers choose between gank and tank. Caldari choose between tackle and tank.
Partially true. In reality however, most Caldari tanks require both midslots AND lowslots to be effective. (The lowslots are either used for Shield Power Relays to increase passive tanking or for PDUs/Cap Flux Coils to make active shield tanking sustainable). So, it would be more accurate to say that Caldari choose between Tank, Gank and Tackle, while armor tankers choose between Gank and Tank (and get tackle basically for free).
Add to this equation that Hybrids, Projectiles and Lasers have had their damage balanced so that they require fewer damage modules to get the same damage as missiles - the traditional Caldari weapon and the disparity increases.
As a test for whether the current situation is really balanced, ask yourself whether you would be happy if the situation were reversed and damage mods required midslots and tackle/MWD/cap boosters took up lowslots. I'm guessing that armor tanking pilots would consider this a nerf and would not be happy about it. To me, that is a fairly good indication that the tradeoff you just mentioned favors armor tankers to the exclusion of shield tankers.
One last note - the high CPU requirements of the module I proposed would require a Caldari pilot to sacrifice either a high or lowslot (i.e. give up a damage mod in order to fit a CPU upgrade or give up a missile launcher). That would seem to solve the problem of Caldari getting to keep their high damage while fitting a tackle.
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kibbeard
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2008.09.02 14:33:00 -
[6]
Wrong. Shield tanks can be passive. Armour tanks cannot because they don't have natural regen. Therefore they require cap which, because lows are used by damage mods / tank, are found in the mid slots in the form of cap rechargers.
And as for missiles; you seem to forget that missiles don't have to worry about tracking or falloff, which I'd say makes up for the minimal damage loss.
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Zara Skyray
Caldari DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.02 14:59:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Zara Skyray on 02/09/2008 15:01:34
Originally by: kibbeard Wrong. Shield tanks can be passive. Armour tanks cannot because they don't have natural regen. Therefore they require cap which, because lows are used by damage mods / tank, are found in the mid slots in the form of cap rechargers.
And as for missiles; you seem to forget that missiles don't have to worry about tracking or falloff, which I'd say makes up for the minimal damage loss.
To answer your first point - yes, Shield Tanks can be passive. However, an effective passive tank requires both mid and lowslots. Essentially, a passive shield tank requires that you sacrifice BOTH tackle AND gank. This is fine for passive tanking your Drake for missions (where neither gank or tackle are that neccesary), but is nearly worthless in PvP. The cap problem faced by active armor tankers is also faced by active shield tankers, with the notable difference that armor tankers can fit cap boosters without sacrificing tank while active shield tankers have to give up a valuable, tank-required midslot to do the same (not to mention that armor reppers require less cap for the same amount of repair).
On your second point, you "seem to forget" that missiles take time to reach their target - allowing a target to warp away before being hit. This makes missiles worthless for sniping. Furthermore, armor tanking ships can easily fit webbers and MWDs - which negate the disadvantages of tracking substantially. Missile users STILL have to deal with speed - which reduces damage per missile and in extreme cases makes a target impossible to hit (basically, mechanics that are similar to tracking penalties). Also, gun users have access to tracking computers which increase both range and tracking - a module that missile don't have access to. Essentially, if your missile range or speed is inadequate, you have to fit rigs or just be content to fire uselessly.
Finally, Caldari ships generally cannot use the same size/quality of drones as their same-class counterparts, which again negates the Caldari damage "advantage."
Again, I ask you to consider whether it would be a nerf on armor tanking if the tables were turned and tackle modules were moved to lowslots and damage mods to midslots. Or, put it another way - would you rather have a Drake or a Brutix sitting with you on that gate? A Megathron or a Rokh? I think the answer is pretty obvious, and my time spent reading Battleclinic killmails would seem to support the fact that shield tanking is less viable in PvP than armor tanking.
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BlondieBC
Minmatar 7th Tribal Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.02 17:43:00 -
[8]
I agree that shield tanks are weaker than armor tank. I think this can be proved by looking at the % of players who use the various tank types. (Please CCP, run data base querry and release real numbers.)
I think the solution is to buff shield tanking some how, not to make armor and shield tank more alike. I think the best way is to:
A) Give shield 20% higher resists. Example 15 armor, 5% thermal. This should be based on the most common damage types. I.E. If Thermal is the most common damage type, add to the resists.
B) My favorite, and XL shield extenders. Multiple titans are a growing factor in 0.0 warfare. XL sheild extenders (i.e. double strength Large) would free up extra tanking slot, therefore making shield tankers stronger.
C) Buff faction shield gear. Many sheild items (such as gallente navy, rep fleet, etc) are not as good as T2 items. I would recommend boosting all faction sheild mods by 10%. I think the huge cost of these items would keep it in balance. Boost only the main item.
D) How about Faction damage controls as an idea. This helps shield tankers more than armor tankers.
There are many more possiblilities.
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Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.09.02 19:43:00 -
[9]
overpowered much. |
Zara Skyray
Caldari DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.03 13:51:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Zara Skyray on 03/09/2008 13:54:55
Originally by: Another Forum'Alt overpowered much.
I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to as "overpowered." The module I proposed perhaps? I essentially based it on the Warp Disruptor - giving it the same same range (less if you include T2 warp disruptors), roughly double the CPU, PG and cap use requirements and an additional scramble point to offset the HUGE costs of fitting it. I doubt anyone, except a shield tanker, would prefer this thing over the existing T1 warp disruptor. I can't imagine how this thing would be "overpowered."
To repeat my position in stronger words - T1 Caldari ships and other shield tankers suck at PvP in a way that no other race does. Period. I doubt that is even debatable. While Caldari do have several good T2 niche ships (Recons, SBs, Hictors, Interceptors etc) their "meat and potatoes" ships - BSs, BCs, Cruisers and HACs are grossly inferior to other ships of the same class in PvP, primarily because their tank requires that they forego many of the modules that are so essential for PvP. To list just a few:
Cap Boosters Sensor Boosters Warp Disruptors/Scramblers Microwarpdrives Afterburners Tracking Computers (Rokh/Eagle/Ferox/Moa) Stasis Webbifiers Remote Sensor Dampeners Tracking Disruptors ECM
A shield tanker who wants to put up ANY significant defense will likely only be able to fit ONE of these midslot modules.
In contrast, here's what an armor tanker might have to "give up" to fit their tank:
Damage Modules Cap Power Relays/Cap Flux Coils Reactor Control/Power Diagnostic Units Backup Sensor Arrays
Oh, and passive shield tankers would have to give up this same list of modules. Just for added nerfing.
Shield tanking and armor tanking aren't even close to even in PvP. This proposal wouldn't make shield tanking MORE powerful than armor tanking - in fact, it would still be a far cry from making them "even." It would help a little though. Maybe enough that PvP Drakes, Ravens and Rokhs would be able to fit BOTH a MWD and tackle, or Webber and tackle. Maybe enough that they would cease to be punch-lines.
If that seems "overpowered" to you, we must be playing different games.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.03 14:13:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 03/09/2008 14:17:23
Caldari is fine and does not need fixing. We do not need highslot tackle, and it would not be good for the game.
EDIT:
Quote: No. While this would certainly make Caldari more viable in PvP, the fitting requirements and cap usage of this new module would make it difficult to use on most current Caldari fits. A passive drake would have to give up 1-2 Shield Power Relays in order to remain cap stable and either fit a CPU Upgrade or give up a missile launcher to handle the additional CPU required to make the module work.
You mention "PVP", "passive Drake" and "Shield Power Relays" in the same sentence. I don't think that you really know what you're talking about...
Second edit. I've read the rest of your comments. Oh dear.
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Zara Skyray
Caldari DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.03 15:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gypsio III You mention "PVP", "passive Drake" and "Shield Power Relays" in the same sentence. I don't think that you really know what you're talking about...
This is kinda my point - the thought of flying a passive drake in pvp is ludicrous. A joke. This despite the fact that a passive drake can simultaneously put out 500-600 effective hp recharge and still deal 450dps. By the numbers, one would think this is a great ship for combat! Unfortunately, the very thing this ship is DESIGNED TO DO (passive shield tank) requires that it be totally gimped in pvp.
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procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.09.03 16:31:00 -
[13]
brick drakes are also slow and have huge signature radius for even easier targetting. I couldn't tell you the numbers but shots against drakes are typically higher quality because they have to dedicate almost every slot to their tank and then a nos or neut still turns off their hardeners and destroys them.
cereberus aren't bad snipers even with the missile issues however i am not sure how well any caldari ships can do close range. part of it is the bonuses are typically range bonuses more than damage bonuses like gallente but the other part is the lack of survivability or usefullness up close becuase of the choices you mentioned. I could support this or something like the other poster said.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.03 16:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zara Skyray
Originally by: Gypsio III You mention "PVP", "passive Drake" and "Shield Power Relays" in the same sentence. I don't think that you really know what you're talking about...
This is kinda my point - the thought of flying a passive drake in pvp is ludicrous. A joke. This despite the fact that a passive drake can simultaneously put out 500-600 effective hp recharge and still deal 450dps. By the numbers, one would think this is a great ship for combat! Unfortunately, the very thing this ship is DESIGNED TO DO (passive shield tank) requires that it be totally gimped in pvp.
I don't understand. You mention PVP, but describe mission fits.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.03 17:01:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zara Skyray
Originally by: Gypsio III You mention "PVP", "passive Drake" and "Shield Power Relays" in the same sentence. I don't think that you really know what you're talking about...
This is kinda my point - the thought of flying a passive drake in pvp is ludicrous. A joke. This despite the fact that a passive drake can simultaneously put out 500-600 effective hp recharge and still deal 450dps. By the numbers, one would think this is a great ship for combat! Unfortunately, the very thing this ship is DESIGNED TO DO (passive shield tank) requires that it be totally gimped in pvp.
It's not the lack of a scrambler - somebody else can tackle. It's the lack of a MWD that makes them terrible. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Zara Skyray
Caldari DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.03 18:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gypsio III I don't understand. You mention PVP, but describe mission fits.
My point is that shield tanks - and particularly passive shield tanks - ARE only useful for mission running, and all Caldari ships are designed to active or passive shield tank. I think that shield tanks, INCLUDING passive shield tanks - should be useful in PvP - and I think they WOULD be if they didn't keep you from fitting any useful PvP mods.
I would also agree with that poster that said that MWDs are more the problem than tackle. That may be, but I suspect that the speed changes coming down the pipe will help even the field in that regard.
My first time enjoying PVP in a Caldari ship was when I got my Onyx. The gank and tank on it was decent - much less than I could get on a Drake - but having that highslot tackle made the thing a decent gatecamper. Now, obviously I don't want Drakes running around with hictor tackles, but it got me thinking that Caldari ships could find a role in PVP if they had access to tackle.
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Sirus Ade
RillaCorp Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.09.03 19:22:00 -
[17]
The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.03 19:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zara Skyray
Originally by: Gypsio III I don't understand. You mention PVP, but describe mission fits.
My point is that shield tanks - and particularly passive shield tanks - ARE only useful for mission running, and all Caldari ships are designed to active or passive shield tank. I think that shield tanks, INCLUDING passive shield tanks - should be useful in PvP - and I think they WOULD be if they didn't keep you from fitting any useful PvP mods.
I would also agree with that poster that said that MWDs are more the problem than tackle. That may be, but I suspect that the speed changes coming down the pipe will help even the field in that regard.
My first time enjoying PVP in a Caldari ship was when I got my Onyx. The gank and tank on it was decent - much less than I could get on a Drake - but having that highslot tackle made the thing a decent gatecamper. Now, obviously I don't want Drakes running around with hictor tackles, but it got me thinking that Caldari ships could find a role in PVP if they had access to tackle.
No, this is all wrong. Ask for some advice about PVP fittings. The best PVP tanks are neither active nor passive, they're buffer tanks, and they work just as well for shields as they do for armour - the lesser EHP boost from LSEs, relative to 1600 plates, is countered by Inv fields being superior to EANMs and the small regen you get on shield buffer tanks.
The Drake in particular is a formidable PVP BC. It fits a solid buffer tank, with decent DPS and MWD and full tackle - the Onyx is just a HIC.
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Zara Skyray
Caldari DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.03 19:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gypsio III No, this is all wrong. Ask for some advice about PVP fittings. The best PVP tanks are neither active nor passive, they're buffer tanks, and they work just as well for shields as they do for armour - the lesser EHP boost from LSEs, relative to 1600 plates, is countered by Inv fields being superior to EANMs and the small regen you get on shield buffer tanks.
The Drake in particular is a formidable PVP BC. It fits a solid buffer tank, with decent DPS and MWD and full tackle - the Onyx is just a HIC.
Yes, I've fitted a Drake that way and it does work quite well for many application. There are, however, times when a repping fit would be MUCH better - and in that regard, shield tanking falls on the wayside.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.03 20:24:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/09/2008 20:25:46
Originally by: Zara Skyray
Partially true. In reality however, most Caldari tanks require both midslots AND lowslots to be effective. (The lowslots are either used for Shield Power Relays to increase passive tanking or for PDUs/Cap Flux Coils to make active shield tanking sustainable). So, it would be more accurate to say that Caldari choose between Tank, Gank and Tackle, while armor tankers choose between Gank and Tank (and get tackle basically for free).
Caldari ships suck because players fit them wrong.
Fact: Caldari lowslots are used for damage mods, three minimum and a Damage Control II.
You rely on BUFFER rather then tank to carry you through. Caldari ships do this well.
As for talking bout 'cap' and 'lowslots' in the same sentence, have you ever heard about a module called a cap booster? That's what PvP setups use.
Originally by: Zara Skyray
There are, however, times when a repping fit would be MUCH better - and in that regard, shield tanking falls on the wayside.
There are NO times when a repping fit is better then a gank + buffer fit outside of a 1v1 (or niche applications such as sitting perma-agressed on a gate) and assuming a tank-bonused ship.
In even a two-man gang, any repping fit is just a total waste.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Marlona Sky
Caldari Astroglide X
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Posted - 2008.09.04 05:02:00 -
[21]
No.
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Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.09.04 21:47:00 -
[22]
the HIC has highslot tackle problem solved
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.05 04:30:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zara Skyray Partially true. In reality however, most Caldari tanks require both midslots AND lowslots to be effective. (The lowslots are either used for Shield Power Relays to increase passive tanking or for PDUs/Cap Flux Coils to make active shield tanking sustainable). So, it would be more accurate to say that Caldari choose between Tank, Gank and Tackle, while armor tankers choose between Gank and Tank (and get tackle basically for free).
SPRs =/= PvP. The fact that you think any (non-idiot) Caldari pilot uses SPRs in PvP proves you know absolutely nothing about the subject.
And Caldari ships are just fine. In fact, they are better than fine, they're arguably the best race right now. Amarr have more pure gank, but Caldari are better at everything else. Sure, they aren't that great at solo PvP, but these days nothing is good at solo PvP.
Oh, and shield tanking is just fine as well. What you conveniently forget to mention is that 3x damage mods are even more mandatory in PvP than web/point, so armor tankers lose more tank slots than shield tankers!
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.05 11:29:00 -
[24]
ROFL 2 points @20km .
Bleat on Caldari F1-F8 headrollers.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 12:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
SPRs =/= PvP. The fact that you think any (non-idiot) Caldari pilot uses SPRs in PvP proves you know absolutely nothing about the subject.
And Caldari ships are just fine. In fact, they are better than fine, they're arguably the best race right now. Amarr have more pure gank, but Caldari are better at everything else. Sure, they aren't that great at solo PvP, but these days nothing is good at solo PvP.
Oh, and shield tanking is just fine as well. What you conveniently forget to mention is that 3x damage mods are even more mandatory in PvP than web/point, so armor tankers lose more tank slots than shield tankers!
Precisely.
Look at ships like the Myrmidon - it has a armour tank bonus, yet the best setup for the ship involves a buffer shield tank - and it gets to fit MWD, web and point on top of everything while having the same sort of buffer a plated gank Harbringer/Hurricane do.
Armour tank the same ship, and it's very meh for most situations (outside of gatecamping/etc), has relatively low damage output and its active tank is rather worthless outside of a 1v1 (and, in fact, in 1v1 situations very often, unless you've got combat boosters + tank rigs - blame it on the fact there's no combat boosters which boost flat out DPS).
Imagine that, a shield tank which is supposedly so bad outdoing a armour tank on a armour tank bonused ship for most PvP applications.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.09.05 18:53:00 -
[26]
I used to be behind this idea a long time ago, but a few skilled Caldari pilots taught me how wrong I was.
A full-rack tank, max damage mods OR tackle is fine and a defining difference between armor and shield tanks.
A lighter tank, tackle, and damage mods is fine and available to both armor or shield tanks.
A full-rack tank, max damage mods, and tackle is overpowered especially when handed only to one type of tanking. |
Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:20:00 -
[27]
Well, OP, you're forgetting something very important:
Armor tankers have fewer mid slots than sheild tankers, so they are in the same exact situation! For armor tankers it's just as difficult adding any sort of tackle, ewar, cap regen, or what-have-you to their mids when they have 1/3 as many as a comperable Caldari ship.
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Holy Lowlander
Aurora Acclivitous
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Posted - 2008.09.06 07:06:00 -
[28]
I really don't want heavy tanked torp ravens with god may know how much damage mods and the ability to tackle ..
YES this would make caldari overpowered as they can choose gank , tank and more gank.
While amor tankers have to chose , gank or tank
Quote: woot I wants a toy arbitrator !!! :O
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Ackuula
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:42:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ackuula on 21/09/2008 12:42:04 I'm all for it, just get rid of insta cap/shield recharge on dock. Sit your butt ouside like the rest of us or empty your wallet at "Joe's eZ Repair shop" in station.
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Dex Nederland
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.09.21 17:31:00 -
[30]
No, the issue is you are trying to fly Caldari ships like they are Gallente or Minmatar. Each Caldari ship has a role, it is up to you to determine the role.
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