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my anti-macro idea - think "asteroids"

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Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.04 19:46:00 - [1] Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 04/09/2008 19:47:47 Everybody who is anybody has proposed an idea to beat macro-miners, and all have been logically proven to be ineffective because macros could be programmed to deal with them. So here is my idea, go ahead and rip it to pieces. But to me it seems like a workable solution. The idea is basically taken from the game "Asteroids". Your mining ship is equipped with a "mining laser" which has a simple function: to blow up the asteroids. (That is, it does not teleport ore into your cargo by the miracle of laser technology.) Asteroids would be of several types -- new types like "granite" and "basalt" -- each containing one or more popular ores. But these ores would be beneath the surface. As you pulverize asteroids with your lasers, they would split into pieces. These would be smaller "rock" asteroids, and as you continued to blast them the pieces would get smaller and smaller. Large rocks would become medium rocks would become small rocks. When you blast a tiny rock, "nuggets" of valuable ore and of worthless rock would result. You'd then have to scoop them with a tractor beam or a small, fast ship. The first implication of this is that mining requires constant attention -- every time an asteroid breaks up, you need to target the new ones and fire your lasers. You also have to micro-manage your tractorbeams or maneuver to catch the ore. Granted all of these could be done by a macro program. Read on. The new thing here is that mining becomes a more tactical activity in which cooperation is more important. No longer is it Hulk > Covetor > Retriever > Osprey > Tormentor. An ideal team might be a Hulk blasting the big asteroids, a Retriever shooting the mediums, and some cruisers and frigates blasting the small ones and scooping up the valuable bits of ore. Due to the slow locking time of big ships, a Hulk that tries to blast the small asteroids and scoop the ores by itself can easily be outcompeted by tiny frigates; but tiny frigates working all day cannot smash as much big rock as an exhumer. The reason this would hurt macros, I think, is that there'd be a significant amount of competitive pressure here -- if you're a newbie who can't fly a Hulk, you could situate yourself next to a Hulk and just let him do the work for you, while you grabbed the rewards. Macros, including ice-mining macros, would suffer because newbies and thieves would rob them blind. Results I'd expect: 1. less solo mining in big ships 2. more team mining in corporations 3. greater ability to interfere with others' mining 4. more wars over real conflicts (not just PVP for fun) 5. mining somewhat more fun (?) and profitable
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.09.04 21:01:00 - [2] Some miners might welcome such a change, others would curse it. Originally by: CCP Atropos the physics engine has balls I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:26:00 - [3] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker The first implication of this is that mining requires constant attention -- every time an asteroid breaks up, you need to target the new ones and fire your lasers. You also have to micro-manage your tractorbeams or maneuver to catch the ore. Granted all of these could be done by a macro program. Read on. no..... a lot of people (myself included) mine while doing other things (such as lightly flame people on the forums). This kills that part of eve completely. It also makes it a hell of a lot harder for solo/noob miners as ore thiefs are gonna have a field day with this. While professional macro's almost always work in groups and can act super fast to get around this.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.05 00:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Typhado3 Originally by: Joe Starbreaker The first implication of this is that mining requires constant attention -- every time an asteroid breaks up, you need to target the new ones and fire your lasers. You also have to micro-manage your tractorbeams or maneuver to catch the ore. Granted all of these could be done by a macro program. Read on. no..... a lot of people (myself included) mine while doing other things Yeah, but that's the problem! The reason human players don't like mining, and the reason it's easy to write macros for mining, is the same. Mining requires a couple of simple actions that can be performed simply through the overview (no maneuvering, tactics, etc) and a hell of a lot of waiting around. Making it an active, at-the-keyboard activity should increase the fun. Making tactics important reduces the ability of macros. Making it open to ore thieves is good because (1) the community would never accept a modification to mining that made it "safe" and (2) it means any lone Hulk pilot is going to be robbed blind. Sure, you could program a team of five macro characters to work together as a coordinated team, but it takes a much, much more sophisticated macro program.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens	Posted - 2008.09.05 11:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Typhado3 no..... a lot of people (myself included) mine while doing other things (such as lightly flame people on the forums). This kills that part of eve completely. It also makes it a hell of a lot harder for solo/noob miners as ore thiefs are gonna have a field day with this. While professional macro's almost always work in groups and can act super fast to get around this. Lol, you actually PAY to play a game AFK? You see, the above is the actual problem with mining. It's so gosh-darn boring that noone wants to sit there and watch it. While THIS particular change isn't what I have in mind, it sure is a hell of a lot better than the current system. The current system is however good for killing braincells. Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Tascaithos	Posted - 2008.09.05 11:52:00 - [6] While I don't think this idea is perfect, few in this forum are. Overall it's a nice start, and I think a good designer could hone it into something more workable. I like the way it adds realism - no teleporting lazers, but actual shooting rocks to break em up so you can get at the contents. Jeez, it's almost realistic! I also like how it gives mining a teamplay aspect, and some depth beyond number crunching. Two thumbs up.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.05 11:59:00 - [7] a) playing asteroids for ten minutes is fun, for 4 hours is a bore. b) "You also have to micro-manage your tractorbeams or maneuver to catch the ore". Manoeuvring, in a mining barge? Possibly loaded with ores? Tractor beams so you lose high slot and get less from mining? c) get hit by a rock and flung 40 km away. Look how fast is your barge returning in the mining range d) "An ideal team might be a Hulk blasting the big asteroids, a Retriever shooting the mediums, and some cruisers and frigates blasting the small ones and scooping up the valuable bits of ore." Wonderful, remember the 2-3 haulers, some defender against thieves, the guy hat should have been here but has no come, and how many people you would need to mine? 20? e) less solo mining in big ships - more team mining in corporations". Mining is one of the activity that can be done solo, a great advantage is you are not in the main playing times or if you need to do something but don't want to involve the whole corp. Essentially your idea would create "wonderful" mining corps, the perfect target for high sec war dec, but nothing useful for the game. No PvPers would stay in a corporation focused on mining, but your idea would force player to join a corp focused on mining if they were interested in mining. The end result would be even less legitimate miners, while macro probably would be very fast in getting new programs dealing with the change.
Sir Substance Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.05 12:56:00 - [8] so basically you want to force miners to have two accounts, so they dont get swarms of nublets stealing their ore. how can i put this? F$#K OFF! i think that adequately conveys my opnion about what is the worst idea i have ever seen on this forum. the speed nerf looks like an idea of pure genius to this. - PvPers always say "GB2WoW". the message is that EVE is hard, and people just need to deal with it. wasn't it funny how when nano's started making it hard for them, that all went out the window?
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.05 17:01:00 - [9] You know the negative responses I'm getting are the best indicator that I've found a winning idea here: "I won't be able to mine AFK!" "I'll have to think about what I'm doing, pay attention to where the asteroids are and where my ship is moving, etc..." "I won't be able to play with myself without a second account!" "Miners will have to take action to deal with pirates and thieves!"
Nik W	Posted - 2008.09.05 17:28:00 - [10] I like the idea of mining being more interactive, because currently it's only fun in groups so you have someone to talk to. Hauling can be tedious too - more on that in a minute. I don't like the idea of requiring multiple players to mine without being robbed blind. There isn't always someone online to play with, so solo mining still needs to remain feasible, but group mining can by all means be more profitable. To solve the tractor beam wasting a high slot problem, a mid slot module called an ore collector could be created. This has a side effect of lowering the tank level of a Hulk if they are solo mining. In groups the hauler can fit the ore collector, allowing the Hulk to be better tanked. This would make hauling more interactive as well. It's an interesting idea, and could be cool if done right.

Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.05 17:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Nik W I don't like the idea of requiring multiple players to mine without being robbed blind. There isn't always someone online to play with, so solo mining still needs to remain feasible, but group mining can by all means be more profitable. It wouldn't prevent solo miners, it would just mean that solo mining is more profitable in a frigate/cruiser/Procurer, because a lone Hulk by itself would blast the rocks but wouldn't be able to snag the precious bits. This would mean that groups would be more profitable. Currently, when people plan mining in a group, they expect less profit. Imagine two hulk pilots and a hauler... they're all thinking they can each earn 2/3 hulk-hour quantities of ore per person per hour. Each hulk pilot knows he can earn a full hulk-hour quantity per hour if he is working solo with an alt to haul. The only reason to mine in a group is (a) security and (b) social benefits, or "for the corp". Under my proposed system, two guys mining together could earn more per person than one alone, and three could earn even more per person. For a solo pilot, you could still mine alone, but you wouldn't bring the absolute biggest ship, you'd have to accept a smaller firepower in exchange for the agility.
Wrangler Al Caldari Shadow's Hunters Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.05 17:44:00 - [12] I have always thought the current "magic laser" way of mining is strange, but I think changing it radically like this would upset too many. They could however do a slight graphic change and wrap the mining laser beam with the Jump effect graphic (with the large cone at the asteroid end) to convay the idea that the laser is breaking up the rock and there is a tractor beam/containment field that the mining unit projects to collect the minerals that are broken off. Also Large veld asteroids should be replaced with empty asteroid shells (as seen in missions) rather than just blinking out of existance
Nik W	Posted - 2008.09.05 18:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Nik W I don't like the idea of requiring multiple players to mine without being robbed blind. There isn't always someone online to play with, so solo mining still needs to remain feasible, but group mining can by all means be more profitable. It wouldn't prevent solo miners, it would just mean that solo mining is more profitable in a frigate/cruiser/Procurer, because a lone Hulk by itself would blast the rocks but wouldn't be able to snag the precious bits. This would mean that groups would be more profitable. Currently, when people plan mining in a group, they expect less profit. Imagine two hulk pilots and a hauler... they're all thinking they can each earn 2/3 hulk-hour quantities of ore per person per hour. Each hulk pilot knows he can earn a full hulk-hour quantity per hour if he is working solo with an alt to haul. The only reason to mine in a group is (a) security and (b) social benefits, or "for the corp". Under my proposed system, two guys mining together could earn more per person than one alone, and three could earn even more per person. For a solo pilot, you could still mine alone, but you wouldn't bring the absolute biggest ship, you'd have to accept a smaller firepower in exchange for the agility. Now you are diverging too far. It took me way too long to get my Hulk for some n00b in a frigate to be able to out mine me. No matter how you set it up, having an alt will make it more profitable (for CCP too!) and that's ok. Hulk solo mining needs to remain possible and profitable.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.05 18:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker You know the negative responses I'm getting are the best indicator that I've found a winning idea here: "I won't be able to mine AFK!" "I'll have to think about what I'm doing, pay attention to where the asteroids are and where my ship is moving, etc..." "I won't be able to play with myself without a second account!" "Miners will have to take action to deal with pirates and thieves!" It that is your reasoning, propose tho give all non laser guns do 1 point of damage. Based on your system of valuation the protest would prove you are right.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.05 18:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Nik W To solve the tractor beam wasting a high slot problem, a mid slot module called an ore collector could be created. This has a side effect of lowering the tank level of a Hulk if they are solo mining. In groups the hauler can fit the ore collector, allowing the Hulk to be better tanked. This would make hauling more interactive as well. Better and better, reduce the "awesome" tank of a hulk. And don't forget that it will reduce the tank of all other exumers and barges at is will be a indispesable module for mining. What is this thread "the revenge of the anti miners"?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.05 18:52:00 - [16] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker This would mean that groups would be more profitable. Currently, when people plan mining in a group, they expect less profit. Imagine two hulk pilots and a hauler... they're all thinking they can each earn 2/3 hulk-hour quantities of ore per person per hour. Each hulk pilot knows he can earn a full hulk-hour quantity per hour if he is working solo with an alt to haul. The only reason to mine in a group is (a) security and (b) social benefits, or "for the corp". You have never mined? Mining in group ismore efficient, not less. You get a dedicated hauler, you get tu use the mining foreman skill, you could even have a command ship or a rorqual with mining links. Try to learn how a thing work before suggesting changes.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.05 23:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Venkul Mul Mining in group ismore efficient, not less. You get a dedicated hauler, you get tu use the mining foreman skill, you could even have a command ship or a rorqual with mining links. And you have to split the profits with the haulers, the tanks, the defenders, the rookies who are there in Ospreys, and so on. It works for a weekly mandatory corp mining op, because your personal profit is zero anyway and you don't care. But when those Hulk pilots are mining for themselves, do they ever do it in gang? I hardly ever see that.
razernc Caldari Ratio Decidendi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.05 23:13:00 - [18] how about a screen that comes up every 15 mins which you have to put in a random code that pops up with it or you get logged out after a min if you dont. This screen would stop comming up after an hour or so online. (IDEA) me!
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.05 23:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Nik W It took me way too long to get my Hulk for some n00b in a frigate to be able to out mine me. Your Hulk will still be valuable. But it'll need support. Think about it this way: A battleship is "better" than a cruiser at fighting; a freighter is "better" than a frigate at hauling. However, would you take your battleship alone into a fight against a group of Recons and HACs and Falcons? Would you transport your T2 BPOs through 0.0 in a freighter instead of a covert ops? No, of course not. Under a scheme like mine (and it is certainly open to modification and reinterpretation) tactics would matter. A group with a Hulk would smash significantly more rocks than a group without one, but you'd be stupid to mine with it alone if a bunch of Skiffs and Ospreys were following you from belt to belt. Still a powerful ship worth all the skillpoints you spent on it. This is not an anti-mining thread. Let's face it, mining sucks. Even the people who call themselves miners admit that they mine while watching TV or pleasuring their wives... they aren't actually mining because they like mining. Make mining a fun, engaging activity, where tactics and teamwork are rewarded, and you will simultaneously kill the macros and attract more people to mining.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.05 23:19:00 - [20] Originally by: razernc crosspost Thanks for spamming

razernc Caldari Ratio Decidendi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.05 23:24:00 - [21] Edited by: razernc on 05/09/2008 23:25:07 aye it tis (crosspost) because this one looks to be getting more feed back :) me!
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.05 23:25:00 - [22] Originally by: razernc aye it tis because this one looks to be getting more feed back :) Wasn't even your idea, lol
Nik W	Posted - 2008.09.06 00:16:00 - [23] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Nik W It took me way too long to get my Hulk for some n00b in a frigate to be able to out mine me. Your Hulk will still be valuable. But it'll need support. Think about it this way: A battleship is "better" than a cruiser at fighting; a freighter is "better" than a frigate at hauling. However, would you take your battleship alone into a fight against a group of Recons and HACs and Falcons? Would you transport your T2 BPOs through 0.0 in a freighter instead of a covert ops? No, of course not. Under a scheme like mine (and it is certainly open to modification and reinterpretation) tactics would matter. A group with a Hulk would smash significantly more rocks than a group without one, but you'd be stupid to mine with it alone if a bunch of Skiffs and Ospreys were following you from belt to belt. Still a powerful ship worth all the skillpoints you spent on it. This is not an anti-mining thread. Let's face it, mining sucks. Even the people who call themselves miners admit that they mine while watching TV or pleasuring their wives... they aren't actually mining because they like mining. Make mining a fun, engaging activity, where tactics and teamwork are rewarded, and you will simultaneously kill the macros and attract more people to mining. Don't get me wrong, I think you are on to an interesting idea that should be explored, but to make it so hulks can't solo mine reasonably effectively would **** me right off.
Sir Substance Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.06 00:59:00 - [24] you must realise jpe, what you propose will make mining even less profitable then it already is. the reason all the miners are screaming blue murder is because they spent a long time and a lot of isk to get to the point where they can mine as much as they do, and yet they still could make more if they had spent 1.5 months training for a raven, and running lvl 4's. if you make mining even less profitable, there will be no reason to do it at all. people will just stick to high sec and run lvl 4's all the time. the only people who will mine will be noobs and macro miners. - PvPers always say "GB2WoW". the message is that EVE is hard, and people just need to deal with it. wasn't it funny how when nano's started making it hard for them, that all went out the window?
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:54:00 - [25] is not REALLY broken...the mechanic itself, until an isk seller yeah... get paid... the macro miner issue is a isk buying issue... CCP should add PERMA message on account log in.. "ISK buying from isk sellers will result in a negative wallet, if you insist on buying isk, please purchase a game time card from CCP store and sell it to another player, thank you" ... no profit = no more farmers... rememeber, the farmers have to think about their next meal... Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.06 07:59:00 - [26] Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 06/09/2008 08:00:01 Originally by: Sir Substance you must realise jpe, what you propose will make mining even less profitable then it already is. I didn't say how much ore value would be in one of the little nuggets! I assume that CCP would balance it out. One thing to consider is that the miners replying to this are a self-selected sample of people who choose to mine under the current (boring, unprofitable) situation. That is, they are the rare few who think mining in EVE is not broken. To get a true feel for how this would go over with the EVE population, you also have to get the opinions of people who don't currently mine, but who could mine if the system were attractive.
Kikusaku bhp Mining	Posted - 2008.09.06 08:11:00 - [27] I like this idea, kinda reminds me of escape velocity novas form of mining, (even though mining as a profession in that game sucked for its own reasons) ccp could reshape their whole asteroid belt idea to be more inline with your idea, possibly a rare treat asteroid flys by your hulk with a lil bit of expensive ore, or a drone hive comes by occasionally, lower sec affects the chances and spawns. Barges could have a innate ability to collect destroyed roids, like a battery of micro tractor beams that have a range of 2-5km that pull in found ore. My ideas could use some probulating however just thought of this stuff....
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.06 08:19:00 - [28] Two more ideas came to me in a dream: 1. Asteroids should definitely move. Maybe the whole belt is moving 50-150 m/s all the time, so bookmarks and GSCs are useless. The smallest asteroids would move the fastest, accentuating the need for small speedy ships to mine them. 2. Hulk pilots could cover for their ships' drawbacks a bit by using drones: a kind that works like a small mining laser with good tracking, and another kind that has a tractorbeam and snags the goodies. So it wouldn't be impossible to mine alone in the Hulk.
Vanessa Vansen	Posted - 2008.09.06 10:06:00 - [29] Edited by: Vanessa Vansen on 06/09/2008 10:14:43 I don't like the idea ... Like mission runners, miners train for better ships to make more profit. With your idea going for mining barges and exhumers is a waste of time. Why? Simply use a battleship to reduce the big roids to smaller ones, than a battlecrusier, cruiser, destroyer, frigate. And the good thing, in a battleship you'll be able to do level 4 missions solo ... sometimes nearly as boring as mining if you have done that mission several times. The difference ... you'll have a big profit when missioning and a small one when mining. In addition, you can reprocess the loot and get some minerals, too. Sometimes even low-sec minerals. Since you trained battleships instead of barge or exhumers, you can do missions solo to make profit and join a mining op for your corp. Altogether R.I.P. mining barges and exhumers. Because of that I really hope that CCP does not incorporate your idea. edit: typing error
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.07 01:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Vanessa Vansen Altogether R.I.P. mining barges and exhumers. I don't see it that way. Why do you?



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