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Breaking the Lightspeed Barrier...?

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Lendwill	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:34:00 - [1] If the ships in Eve Online had a visual effect for when they first surpass the speed of light (299 793 km/s), what would it be? Would the ships lights elongate? Would it turn pitch black with no shadows? Is there a rationale behind why there is no visual effect? If so, what is it?
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:37:00 - [2] when you engage your warp drive it enters a sort of "tunnel" visually. I've always interpreted it as your ship is traveling at a subluminal velocity within the tunnel, but the tunnel itself is travelling faster than the speed of light... so maybe from your frame of reference the ship would look fine?
Baldour Ngarr Interwarp Plexus Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:42:00 - [3] Something along those lines. Basically, your ship does not "surpass" the speed-of-light barrier because nothing ever can; rather it warps the space around itself so that the far distant point to which it is travelling is effectively a lot closer. Or some such technobabble. Feel free to invent an alternative justification; I don't know if CCP ever created a detailed "official" one. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:48:00 - [4] There is a boom when you break the 1 AU/s barrier, but that's it. Always thought the warp drive created a frictionless bubble around the ship that allows it to shift through space without mass restrictions but require accurate navigation and friction control to have you end up where you want to be. Hence also the warping through objects, as you are not really touching them due to the frictionless spatial bubble around you not affecting the space you pass through. Think of a glass sphere passing between two sheets of cloth. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Athanasios Anastasiou The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:52:00 - [5] http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_05.asp
Planks Unjustified Ancients of MuMu	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:56:00 - [6] /me puts on specs The boom you hear seems to only occur when you hit max warp speed, be it 3 AU in BC or 13 AU in inties etc. OK so the ship in the warp bubble is not breaking any light speed barrier, but it would be cool if everything outside the bubble that flits by at godknows how many times the speed of light had some sort of distortion effect when the bubble effectively breaks the light barrier. By the way, I've noticed that if you warp a ship that's on fire, the flames stretch out to infinity so maybe this effect is already covered. /me take specs off
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:06:00 - [7] BTW. The warp tunnel shows a red/blue shift as light would change, depending on the movement towards or away from a light source. That effect is observed in stars moving in relation of (our) earth's perception. I like how CCP took real science into account when developing science fiction effects. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Lendwill	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:16:00 - [8] Planks: stretching the stars and planets out like a structural fire would be very interesting, although that would also mean everything outside the tunnel would eventually go pitch black (if black is actually what you would "see"). I imagine the point you are warping to and had warped from would still be visible if the warp tunnel is like a tube with no distortion at either end. I wonder what the justifcation is for having the ship's thrusters going in the warp in the first place? I know the easy answer for everything is "it's what the ship's computer lets you see," but that sure is boring.
Planks Unjustified Ancients of MuMu	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:23:00 - [9] It's probably best to just throw realism out the window and give a light show during warp. After all, you can see the laser beams, but in space a laser beam would be invisible due to there being nothing for the beam to light up. Give us showy effects when breaking the light barrier!
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Planks It's probably best to just throw realism out the window and give a light show during warp. After all, you can see the laser beams, but in space a laser beam would be invisible due to there being nothing for the beam to light up. Give us showy effects when breaking the light barrier! Actually, space is remarkably dirty. There is a considerable amount of particulate matter, especially inside a solar system. This of course assumes the lasers are of a visual spectrum, most are not. Microwave, Xray, etc And here comes the RP... Your pod adds sound, why wouldn't it add light to lasers and flashes from gun fire? (specifically, hybrids are "rail" based, no explosive powder involved, no fire, no flash, IRL)(to be really *****y, rail guns have an "arc" effect IRL but it's almost invisible due to it being VERY hot and nearly white to the naked eye. It might show up in the dark, but it probably wouldn't in the ambient light levels of eve) ______________________________________________ Goon FC(08/12/06):"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"

Chipan Asty	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Your pod adds sound, why wouldn't it add light .. etc [/quote I want my pod to add lightbarrier breaking effects! :)
Andrew Olaffsen	Posted - 2008.09.05 00:00:00 - [12] I purchased the XBOX 360 game "Mass Effect" and it has a pretty good FTL travel animation and even has a kind of encyclopedia explanation thingy of how it works.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.05 00:12:00 - [13] Oh well... The difference between Fantasy and Science Fiction is that Science Fiction is putting an effort into explaining their magic. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Dramius Perpetua Umbra Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.05 00:14:00 - [14] technically, if you were traveling at reletivistic speeds, there would be a huge red shift in what you saw and the size of objects would get very small and squished. But then again, that's not appealing in a game, so we have a neat looking tunnel effect created by a casmir vaccuum which according to eve, allows ships to transcend the light barrier
Sol ExAstris	Posted - 2008.09.05 00:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Abrazzar BTW. The warp tunnel shows a red/blue shift as light would change, depending on the movement towards or away from a light source. That effect is observed in stars moving in relation of (our) earth's perception. I like how CCP took real science into account when developing science fiction effects. While its cool that CCP made reference to an actual effect, it is of course not accurately scaled. For those of you that are curious what "surpassing" the speed of light would look like, it is helpful to imagine the sonic waves in and around an aircraft as it breaks the sound barrier, however there is a crux in the problem that I will get to in a sec. As you pick up speed, the light in front of you would effectively be moving faster due to the relative difference in speed. This means that reds would shift to blues, infra reds would shift to reds, and blues would become invisible. This would continue down the spectrum until you were seeing radar waves as regular colors. Conversely, the light behind you would redshift tremendously, causing ultraviolet to downshift into blues, and reds to go out of your seeable range (maybe this is how superman can see xrays eh? He flys away so fast that they downshift into his visible spectrum, lol). Another strange thing that would happen is that much of your vision would get dimmer. This is because of the time dialation slowing you down relative to the rest of the universe. You would still think things were happening at a normal rate, but the rest of the universe would seem to be in slow-motion, meaning that if the same number of photons hit your eye in a given period of the universe's time, your eyes would see them hit over a much extended period of time (going to infinity at the speed of light). This last problem has a counter paradox involved though. As you go near the speed of light, you will inevitably hit more photons in your front side as you plow through space, causing you to have an increasing number of photons hit in the universe's frame of reference. Which wins out, the increasing numbers per unit of time, or the rapidity with which you seem to percieve them? You have me there, I can't answer that one, but its interesting to speculate about none-the-less. And then we finally hit *the* problem. The Speed of Light. This is the point at which the universe goes wtf and the equations do to. The relativistic compensation is 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) and gets multiplied into several newtonian equations such as F=ma or tacked onto things as simple as t. And its position can make things go to 0, or infinity. Mass becomes infinitely huge, hence why we can never actually accelerate anything to c. Time and length go to 0. But if t goes to zero how do you then surpass the speed of light if you cannot progress into the future's next millisecond to do so? And furthermore, what does the equation mean once you have suprassed c and you are given non-real results for mass/time/length? In summation, this is why videogames and sci-fi in general have to cheat real physics in this department :)
Avin Kardi	Posted - 2008.09.05 01:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Sol ExAstris Originally by: Abrazzar BTW. The warp tunnel shows a red/blue shift as light would change, depending on the movement towards or away from a light source. That effect is observed in stars moving in relation of (our) earth's perception. I like how CCP took real science into account when developing science fiction effects. While its cool that CCP made reference to an actual effect, it is of course not accurately scaled. For those of you that are curious what "surpassing" the speed of light would look like, it is helpful to imagine the sonic waves in and around an aircraft as it breaks the sound barrier, however there is a crux in the problem that I will get to in a sec. As you pick up speed, the light in front of you would effectively be moving faster due to the relative difference in speed. This means that reds would shift to blues, infra reds would shift to reds, and blues would become invisible. This would continue down the spectrum until you were seeing radar waves as regular colors. Conversely, the light behind you would redshift tremendously, causing ultraviolet to downshift into blues, and reds to go out of your seeable range (maybe this is how superman can see xrays eh? He flys away so fast that they downshift into his visible spectrum, lol). Another strange thing that would happen is that much of your vision would get dimmer. This is because of the time dialation slowing you down relative to the rest of the universe. You would still think things were happening at a normal rate, but the rest of the universe would seem to be in slow-motion, meaning that if the same number of photons hit your eye in a given period of the universe's time, your eyes would see them hit over a much extended period of time (going to infinity at the speed of light). This last problem has a counter paradox involved though. As you go near the speed of light, you will inevitably hit more photons in your front side as you plow through space, causing you to have an increasing number of photons hit in the universe's frame of reference. Which wins out, the increasing numbers per unit of time, or the rapidity with which you seem to percieve them? You have me there, I can't answer that one, but its interesting to speculate about none-the-less. And then we finally hit *the* problem. The Speed of Light. This is the point at which the universe goes wtf and the equations do to. The relativistic compensation is 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) and gets multiplied into several newtonian equations such as F=ma or tacked onto things as simple as t. And its position can make things go to 0, or infinity. Mass becomes infinitely huge, hence why we can never actually accelerate anything to c. Time and length go to 0. But if t goes to zero how do you then surpass the speed of light if you cannot progress into the future's next millisecond to do so? And furthermore, what does the equation mean once you have suprassed c and you are given non-real results for mass/time/length? In summation, this is why videogames and sci-fi in general have to cheat real physics in this department :) Wow...
AtomizerX Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.09.05 01:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Lendwill If the ships in Eve Online had a visual effect for when they first surpass the speed of light (299 793 km/s), what would it be? Would the ships lights elongate? Would it turn pitch black with no shadows? Is there a rationale behind why there is no visual effect? If so, what is it? You're forgetting that regular warp drive speeds do not exceed the speed of light; the only time this happens is when you use a gate or jump drive. Even then, you don't know exactly how fast you're going unless you know the distance involved and the actual time it took to travel that distance; jumping only takes a few seconds as far as us players are concerned, but you don't really know how much time your pilot experiences. Then again, it's only a game so none of that matters. I would, however, like to point out that per the OP the screen does turn black like you suggested when you jump and exceed the speed of light, albeit the effect is simply part of the game's session change. --- BPCs for sale; see character's bio in-game for details. EVEMail if interested. *Nyx Outpost Platforms
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.05 01:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Something along those lines. Basically, your ship does not "surpass" the speed-of-light barrier because nothing ever can; rather it warps the space around itself so that the far distant point to which it is travelling is effectively a lot closer. Or some such technobabble. Feel free to invent an alternative justification; I don't know if CCP ever created a detailed "official" one. this is actually how it works, its how the star trek warp drives work as well the ship creates a field around itself and it literally shrinks space in front of the ship and expands it behind the ship, so its just decreasing the distance between objects in front of you and increasing the distance of objects behind you Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Lendwill	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:20:00 - [19] Originally by: AtomizerX You're forgetting that regular warp drive speeds do not exceed the speed of light; the only time this happens is when you use a gate or jump drive. Even then, you don't know exactly how fast you're going unless you know the distance involved and the actual time it took to travel that distance; jumping only takes a few seconds as far as us players are concerned, but you don't really know how much time your pilot experiences. Then again, it's only a game so none of that matters. I would, however, like to point out that per the OP the screen does turn black like you suggested when you jump and exceed the speed of light, albeit the effect is simply part of the game's session change. You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp.
AtomizerX Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:42:00 - [20] Originally by: Lendwill You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp. I hope I'm not the only one here to read this and realize you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not at all mistaken about warp in Eve, you are. Why don't you do the math and figure it out for yourself? I'd ask you to support your statement but since it's obviously incorrect you just need to realize that for yourself and adjust your post. I'll give you a little hint to get you started: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=1+light+year+in+astronomical+units&btnG=Search So, if 1 ly is equal to over 63k au, and the slowest-warping ship is, what, a Freighter? Then that's 0.7 au/sec... and have you figured it out yet? Or, look at it this way: if you warp from gate-to-gate a distance of, say, 40 au and it DOESN'T take you an imperceptible fraction of a second, then you AREN'T traveling many times faster than the speed of light. I don't have anything personal against you or anyone else, but PLEASE do your research before posting obvious fallacies. --- BPCs for sale; see character's bio in-game for details. EVEMail if interested. *Nyx Outpost Platforms

Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:50:00 - [21] Originally by: AtomizerX Originally by: Lendwill You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp. I hope I'm not the only one here to read this and realize you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not at all mistaken about warp in Eve, you are. Why don't you do the math and figure it out for yourself? I'd ask you to support your statement but since it's obviously incorrect you just need to realize that for yourself and adjust your post. I'll give you a little hint to get you started: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=1+light+year+in+astronomical+units&btnG=Search So, if 1 ly is equal to over 63k au, and the slowest-warping ship is, what, a Freighter? Then that's 0.7 au/sec... and have you figured it out yet? Or, look at it this way: if you warp from gate-to-gate a distance of, say, 40 au and it DOESN'T take you an imperceptible fraction of a second, then you AREN'T traveling many times faster than the speed of light. I don't have anything personal against you or anyone else, but PLEASE do your research before posting obvious fallacies. err... he's definitely right. 1 AU = the distance from the earth to the sun. As you can read anywhere, it takes several minutes for light from the sun to reach the earth. If you want specific examples, it took several minutes for instructions to reach the rovers on Mars. EVERY warp in eve takes < 2 minutes, max. Even ones of over 100AU! You might not be traveling many times the speed of light, but you are certainly exceeding it.
Lendwill	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:51:00 - [22] Edited by: Lendwill on 05/09/2008 02:52:40 1 Astronomical Unit = 149 598 000 kilometers (Google search, "au") the speed of light = 299 792 458 m/s (Google search, "speed of light") (299 792 458 m/s) / 1000 = 299 792.458 km/s 149 598 000 km / (299 792.458 km/s) = 499 seconds 499 seconds / 60 seconds = 8.31 minutes thus 1 Astronomical Unit = 8.31 light minutes It has been an interesting thread so far. Don't get offended so easily. Note: Just saw your edit. Thanks for that.
deadman69	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:53:00 - [23] Edited by: deadman69 on 05/09/2008 02:53:10
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:54:00 - [24] Originally by: AtomizerX Originally by: Lendwill You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp. I hope I'm not the only one here to read this and realize you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not at all mistaken about warp in Eve, you are. Why don't you do the math and figure it out for yourself? I'd ask you to support your statement but since it's obviously incorrect you just need to realize that for yourself and adjust your post. I'll give you a little hint to get you started: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=1+light+year+in+astronomical+units&btnG=Search So, if 1 ly is equal to over 63k au, and the slowest-warping ship is, what, a Freighter? Then that's 0.7 au/sec... and have you figured it out yet? Or, look at it this way: if you warp from gate-to-gate a distance of, say, 40 au and it DOESN'T take you an imperceptible fraction of a second, then you AREN'T traveling many times faster than the speed of light. I don't have anything personal against you or anyone else, but PLEASE do your research before posting obvious fallacies. OK. Google Astronomical nit and Speed of Light and use a freaking calculator. Light needs 8 minutes and 20 seconds to travel one (1) AU A freighter takes less than 2 seconds (=1/30th of a minute) Now please, tell me again that traveling at 0.7 AU per second is slower than the speed of light. Use a calculator and maybe your elementary school math teacher to get it right.... -------- Ideas for: Mining
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:57:00 - [25] Originally by: AtomizerX Edited by: AtomizerX on 05/09/2008 02:50:47 On second thought, I don't care to get involved in an Internet Argument at the moment. You dont want to get involved because you did the math and realized you were completely, embarrassingly wrong. We get it, don't worry.
AtomizerX Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:58:00 - [26] The only thing I can tell you to address your original question is that it's just a game. Don't expect it to be realistic, but then again nobody's done most of the things in this game (FTL travel, space combat, cloning, etc.) so there isn't necessarily an expected realistic counterpart. Why aren't there some special visual effects, even if nobody knows what they should be? Well, chalk it up to lack of interest, lack of desire, or lack of willingness to spend any more funding developing a relatively minor detail in the game. Personally I'd rather CCP spent time adjusting game mechanics and fixing the damn exceptions the game's been throwing since the patch than some minor visual effects. That's not the answer you're looking for, however. --- BPCs for sale; see character's bio in-game for details. EVEMail if interested. *Nyx Outpost Platforms
Deserak Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.05 03:00:00 - [27] Damn everyone was too fast...I didn't get to say there was 31.536 million seconds in a year
Arkeladin	Posted - 2008.09.05 03:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Arkeladin on 05/09/2008 03:45:10 Originally by: Planks /me puts on specs The boom you hear seems to only occur when you hit max warp speed, be it 3 AU in BC or 13 AU in inties etc. OK so the ship in the warp bubble is not breaking any light speed barrier, but it would be cool if everything outside the bubble that flits by at godknows how many times the speed of light had some sort of distortion effect when the bubble effectively breaks the light barrier. By the way, I've noticed that if you warp a ship that's on fire, the flames stretch out to infinity so maybe this effect is already covered. /me take specs off Look again, and know some real science. Rotate your view around your ship while it's flying in the "tunnel". Notice that there's a color shift as you rotate the view? That's scientifically accurate, and is called "Doppler Effect". As you move down the tunnel at close to lgitspeed, light coming from in front of you is blue-shifted, light behind you is red-shifted due to apparent frequeny-change based on your velocity. Now, CCP is NOT accurate in terms of the intensity of the effect - they are accurate about the effect being there. "Warp" travel is EvE is basically a distance-shrinking effect, that either through folds or some other method shortens the distance between two points, which is why you can't warp to a undefined spot - you need to define the endpoint of the "warp tunnel" to create it. Travel WITHIN the warp tunnel itself is subluminal - otherwise, NOTHING would be able to be seen either inside or outside the tunnel, as all energy waves would be shifted to zero in effect by the relative velocity between them and your ship. The "boom" on entering warp would be excplained by the particles (with their high constant velocity) hitting the back of your ship once warp was entered and your ship itself reached constant velocity. The "light tunneling" effect has already been given a explanation, and is to be expected as the ship closes in on lightspeed. Enough technobabble for you?
Kzintee Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.05 04:47:00 - [29] You get Ludicrous Speed
Paramite Pies Minmatar Kasrkin Innovative Assembly	Posted - 2008.09.05 06:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Kzintee You get Ludicrous Speed Glad I am not the only one who caught that movie today. __________________ EVE-Online. Love it? Hate it? Just play it! Or go back to Runescape.



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