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Breaking the Lightspeed Barrier...?

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Lendwill	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:34:00 - [1] If the ships in Eve Online had a visual effect for when they first surpass the speed of light (299 793 km/s), what would it be? Would the ships lights elongate? Would it turn pitch black with no shadows? Is there a rationale behind why there is no visual effect? If so, what is it?
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:37:00 - [2] when you engage your warp drive it enters a sort of "tunnel" visually. I've always interpreted it as your ship is traveling at a subluminal velocity within the tunnel, but the tunnel itself is travelling faster than the speed of light... so maybe from your frame of reference the ship would look fine?
Baldour Ngarr Interwarp Plexus Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:42:00 - [3] Something along those lines. Basically, your ship does not "surpass" the speed-of-light barrier because nothing ever can; rather it warps the space around itself so that the far distant point to which it is travelling is effectively a lot closer. Or some such technobabble. Feel free to invent an alternative justification; I don't know if CCP ever created a detailed "official" one. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:48:00 - [4] There is a boom when you break the 1 AU/s barrier, but that's it. Always thought the warp drive created a frictionless bubble around the ship that allows it to shift through space without mass restrictions but require accurate navigation and friction control to have you end up where you want to be. Hence also the warping through objects, as you are not really touching them due to the frictionless spatial bubble around you not affecting the space you pass through. Think of a glass sphere passing between two sheets of cloth. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Athanasios Anastasiou The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:52:00 - [5] http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_05.asp
Planks Unjustified Ancients of MuMu	Posted - 2008.09.04 22:56:00 - [6] /me puts on specs The boom you hear seems to only occur when you hit max warp speed, be it 3 AU in BC or 13 AU in inties etc. OK so the ship in the warp bubble is not breaking any light speed barrier, but it would be cool if everything outside the bubble that flits by at godknows how many times the speed of light had some sort of distortion effect when the bubble effectively breaks the light barrier. By the way, I've noticed that if you warp a ship that's on fire, the flames stretch out to infinity so maybe this effect is already covered. /me take specs off
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:06:00 - [7] BTW. The warp tunnel shows a red/blue shift as light would change, depending on the movement towards or away from a light source. That effect is observed in stars moving in relation of (our) earth's perception. I like how CCP took real science into account when developing science fiction effects. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Lendwill	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:16:00 - [8] Planks: stretching the stars and planets out like a structural fire would be very interesting, although that would also mean everything outside the tunnel would eventually go pitch black (if black is actually what you would "see"). I imagine the point you are warping to and had warped from would still be visible if the warp tunnel is like a tube with no distortion at either end. I wonder what the justifcation is for having the ship's thrusters going in the warp in the first place? I know the easy answer for everything is "it's what the ship's computer lets you see," but that sure is boring.
Planks Unjustified Ancients of MuMu	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:23:00 - [9] It's probably best to just throw realism out the window and give a light show during warp. After all, you can see the laser beams, but in space a laser beam would be invisible due to there being nothing for the beam to light up. Give us showy effects when breaking the light barrier!
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Planks It's probably best to just throw realism out the window and give a light show during warp. After all, you can see the laser beams, but in space a laser beam would be invisible due to there being nothing for the beam to light up. Give us showy effects when breaking the light barrier! Actually, space is remarkably dirty. There is a considerable amount of particulate matter, especially inside a solar system. This of course assumes the lasers are of a visual spectrum, most are not. Microwave, Xray, etc And here comes the RP... Your pod adds sound, why wouldn't it add light to lasers and flashes from gun fire? (specifically, hybrids are "rail" based, no explosive powder involved, no fire, no flash, IRL)(to be really *****y, rail guns have an "arc" effect IRL but it's almost invisible due to it being VERY hot and nearly white to the naked eye. It might show up in the dark, but it probably wouldn't in the ambient light levels of eve) ______________________________________________ Goon FC(08/12/06):"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"

Chipan Asty	Posted - 2008.09.04 23:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Your pod adds sound, why wouldn't it add light .. etc [/quote I want my pod to add lightbarrier breaking effects! :)
Andrew Olaffsen	Posted - 2008.09.05 00:00:00 - [12] I purchased the XBOX 360 game "Mass Effect" and it has a pretty good FTL travel animation and even has a kind of encyclopedia explanation thingy of how it works.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.05 00:12:00 - [13] Oh well... The difference between Fantasy and Science Fiction is that Science Fiction is putting an effort into explaining their magic. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Dramius Perpetua Umbra Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.05 00:14:00 - [14] technically, if you were traveling at reletivistic speeds, there would be a huge red shift in what you saw and the size of objects would get very small and squished. But then again, that's not appealing in a game, so we have a neat looking tunnel effect created by a casmir vaccuum which according to eve, allows ships to transcend the light barrier
Sol ExAstris	Posted - 2008.09.05 00:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Abrazzar BTW. The warp tunnel shows a red/blue shift as light would change, depending on the movement towards or away from a light source. That effect is observed in stars moving in relation of (our) earth's perception. I like how CCP took real science into account when developing science fiction effects. While its cool that CCP made reference to an actual effect, it is of course not accurately scaled. For those of you that are curious what "surpassing" the speed of light would look like, it is helpful to imagine the sonic waves in and around an aircraft as it breaks the sound barrier, however there is a crux in the problem that I will get to in a sec. As you pick up speed, the light in front of you would effectively be moving faster due to the relative difference in speed. This means that reds would shift to blues, infra reds would shift to reds, and blues would become invisible. This would continue down the spectrum until you were seeing radar waves as regular colors. Conversely, the light behind you would redshift tremendously, causing ultraviolet to downshift into blues, and reds to go out of your seeable range (maybe this is how superman can see xrays eh? He flys away so fast that they downshift into his visible spectrum, lol). Another strange thing that would happen is that much of your vision would get dimmer. This is because of the time dialation slowing you down relative to the rest of the universe. You would still think things were happening at a normal rate, but the rest of the universe would seem to be in slow-motion, meaning that if the same number of photons hit your eye in a given period of the universe's time, your eyes would see them hit over a much extended period of time (going to infinity at the speed of light). This last problem has a counter paradox involved though. As you go near the speed of light, you will inevitably hit more photons in your front side as you plow through space, causing you to have an increasing number of photons hit in the universe's frame of reference. Which wins out, the increasing numbers per unit of time, or the rapidity with which you seem to percieve them? You have me there, I can't answer that one, but its interesting to speculate about none-the-less. And then we finally hit *the* problem. The Speed of Light. This is the point at which the universe goes wtf and the equations do to. The relativistic compensation is 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) and gets multiplied into several newtonian equations such as F=ma or tacked onto things as simple as t. And its position can make things go to 0, or infinity. Mass becomes infinitely huge, hence why we can never actually accelerate anything to c. Time and length go to 0. But if t goes to zero how do you then surpass the speed of light if you cannot progress into the future's next millisecond to do so? And furthermore, what does the equation mean once you have suprassed c and you are given non-real results for mass/time/length? In summation, this is why videogames and sci-fi in general have to cheat real physics in this department :)
Avin Kardi	Posted - 2008.09.05 01:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Sol ExAstris Originally by: Abrazzar BTW. The warp tunnel shows a red/blue shift as light would change, depending on the movement towards or away from a light source. That effect is observed in stars moving in relation of (our) earth's perception. I like how CCP took real science into account when developing science fiction effects. While its cool that CCP made reference to an actual effect, it is of course not accurately scaled. For those of you that are curious what "surpassing" the speed of light would look like, it is helpful to imagine the sonic waves in and around an aircraft as it breaks the sound barrier, however there is a crux in the problem that I will get to in a sec. As you pick up speed, the light in front of you would effectively be moving faster due to the relative difference in speed. This means that reds would shift to blues, infra reds would shift to reds, and blues would become invisible. This would continue down the spectrum until you were seeing radar waves as regular colors. Conversely, the light behind you would redshift tremendously, causing ultraviolet to downshift into blues, and reds to go out of your seeable range (maybe this is how superman can see xrays eh? He flys away so fast that they downshift into his visible spectrum, lol). Another strange thing that would happen is that much of your vision would get dimmer. This is because of the time dialation slowing you down relative to the rest of the universe. You would still think things were happening at a normal rate, but the rest of the universe would seem to be in slow-motion, meaning that if the same number of photons hit your eye in a given period of the universe's time, your eyes would see them hit over a much extended period of time (going to infinity at the speed of light). This last problem has a counter paradox involved though. As you go near the speed of light, you will inevitably hit more photons in your front side as you plow through space, causing you to have an increasing number of photons hit in the universe's frame of reference. Which wins out, the increasing numbers per unit of time, or the rapidity with which you seem to percieve them? You have me there, I can't answer that one, but its interesting to speculate about none-the-less. And then we finally hit *the* problem. The Speed of Light. This is the point at which the universe goes wtf and the equations do to. The relativistic compensation is 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) and gets multiplied into several newtonian equations such as F=ma or tacked onto things as simple as t. And its position can make things go to 0, or infinity. Mass becomes infinitely huge, hence why we can never actually accelerate anything to c. Time and length go to 0. But if t goes to zero how do you then surpass the speed of light if you cannot progress into the future's next millisecond to do so? And furthermore, what does the equation mean once you have suprassed c and you are given non-real results for mass/time/length? In summation, this is why videogames and sci-fi in general have to cheat real physics in this department :) Wow...
AtomizerX Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.09.05 01:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Lendwill If the ships in Eve Online had a visual effect for when they first surpass the speed of light (299 793 km/s), what would it be? Would the ships lights elongate? Would it turn pitch black with no shadows? Is there a rationale behind why there is no visual effect? If so, what is it? You're forgetting that regular warp drive speeds do not exceed the speed of light; the only time this happens is when you use a gate or jump drive. Even then, you don't know exactly how fast you're going unless you know the distance involved and the actual time it took to travel that distance; jumping only takes a few seconds as far as us players are concerned, but you don't really know how much time your pilot experiences. Then again, it's only a game so none of that matters. I would, however, like to point out that per the OP the screen does turn black like you suggested when you jump and exceed the speed of light, albeit the effect is simply part of the game's session change. --- BPCs for sale; see character's bio in-game for details. EVEMail if interested. *Nyx Outpost Platforms
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.05 01:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Something along those lines. Basically, your ship does not "surpass" the speed-of-light barrier because nothing ever can; rather it warps the space around itself so that the far distant point to which it is travelling is effectively a lot closer. Or some such technobabble. Feel free to invent an alternative justification; I don't know if CCP ever created a detailed "official" one. this is actually how it works, its how the star trek warp drives work as well the ship creates a field around itself and it literally shrinks space in front of the ship and expands it behind the ship, so its just decreasing the distance between objects in front of you and increasing the distance of objects behind you Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Lendwill	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:20:00 - [19] Originally by: AtomizerX You're forgetting that regular warp drive speeds do not exceed the speed of light; the only time this happens is when you use a gate or jump drive. Even then, you don't know exactly how fast you're going unless you know the distance involved and the actual time it took to travel that distance; jumping only takes a few seconds as far as us players are concerned, but you don't really know how much time your pilot experiences. Then again, it's only a game so none of that matters. I would, however, like to point out that per the OP the screen does turn black like you suggested when you jump and exceed the speed of light, albeit the effect is simply part of the game's session change. You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp.
AtomizerX Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:42:00 - [20] Originally by: Lendwill You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp. I hope I'm not the only one here to read this and realize you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not at all mistaken about warp in Eve, you are. Why don't you do the math and figure it out for yourself? I'd ask you to support your statement but since it's obviously incorrect you just need to realize that for yourself and adjust your post. I'll give you a little hint to get you started: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=1+light+year+in+astronomical+units&btnG=Search So, if 1 ly is equal to over 63k au, and the slowest-warping ship is, what, a Freighter? Then that's 0.7 au/sec... and have you figured it out yet? Or, look at it this way: if you warp from gate-to-gate a distance of, say, 40 au and it DOESN'T take you an imperceptible fraction of a second, then you AREN'T traveling many times faster than the speed of light. I don't have anything personal against you or anyone else, but PLEASE do your research before posting obvious fallacies. --- BPCs for sale; see character's bio in-game for details. EVEMail if interested. *Nyx Outpost Platforms

Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:50:00 - [21] Originally by: AtomizerX Originally by: Lendwill You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp. I hope I'm not the only one here to read this and realize you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not at all mistaken about warp in Eve, you are. Why don't you do the math and figure it out for yourself? I'd ask you to support your statement but since it's obviously incorrect you just need to realize that for yourself and adjust your post. I'll give you a little hint to get you started: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=1+light+year+in+astronomical+units&btnG=Search So, if 1 ly is equal to over 63k au, and the slowest-warping ship is, what, a Freighter? Then that's 0.7 au/sec... and have you figured it out yet? Or, look at it this way: if you warp from gate-to-gate a distance of, say, 40 au and it DOESN'T take you an imperceptible fraction of a second, then you AREN'T traveling many times faster than the speed of light. I don't have anything personal against you or anyone else, but PLEASE do your research before posting obvious fallacies. err... he's definitely right. 1 AU = the distance from the earth to the sun. As you can read anywhere, it takes several minutes for light from the sun to reach the earth. If you want specific examples, it took several minutes for instructions to reach the rovers on Mars. EVERY warp in eve takes < 2 minutes, max. Even ones of over 100AU! You might not be traveling many times the speed of light, but you are certainly exceeding it.
Lendwill	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:51:00 - [22] Edited by: Lendwill on 05/09/2008 02:52:40 1 Astronomical Unit = 149 598 000 kilometers (Google search, "au") the speed of light = 299 792 458 m/s (Google search, "speed of light") (299 792 458 m/s) / 1000 = 299 792.458 km/s 149 598 000 km / (299 792.458 km/s) = 499 seconds 499 seconds / 60 seconds = 8.31 minutes thus 1 Astronomical Unit = 8.31 light minutes It has been an interesting thread so far. Don't get offended so easily. Note: Just saw your edit. Thanks for that.
deadman69	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:53:00 - [23] Edited by: deadman69 on 05/09/2008 02:53:10
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:54:00 - [24] Originally by: AtomizerX Originally by: Lendwill You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp. I hope I'm not the only one here to read this and realize you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not at all mistaken about warp in Eve, you are. Why don't you do the math and figure it out for yourself? I'd ask you to support your statement but since it's obviously incorrect you just need to realize that for yourself and adjust your post. I'll give you a little hint to get you started: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=1+light+year+in+astronomical+units&btnG=Search So, if 1 ly is equal to over 63k au, and the slowest-warping ship is, what, a Freighter? Then that's 0.7 au/sec... and have you figured it out yet? Or, look at it this way: if you warp from gate-to-gate a distance of, say, 40 au and it DOESN'T take you an imperceptible fraction of a second, then you AREN'T traveling many times faster than the speed of light. I don't have anything personal against you or anyone else, but PLEASE do your research before posting obvious fallacies. OK. Google Astronomical nit and Speed of Light and use a freaking calculator. Light needs 8 minutes and 20 seconds to travel one (1) AU A freighter takes less than 2 seconds (=1/30th of a minute) Now please, tell me again that traveling at 0.7 AU per second is slower than the speed of light. Use a calculator and maybe your elementary school math teacher to get it right.... -------- Ideas for: Mining
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:57:00 - [25] Originally by: AtomizerX Edited by: AtomizerX on 05/09/2008 02:50:47 On second thought, I don't care to get involved in an Internet Argument at the moment. You dont want to get involved because you did the math and realized you were completely, embarrassingly wrong. We get it, don't worry.
AtomizerX Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.09.05 02:58:00 - [26] The only thing I can tell you to address your original question is that it's just a game. Don't expect it to be realistic, but then again nobody's done most of the things in this game (FTL travel, space combat, cloning, etc.) so there isn't necessarily an expected realistic counterpart. Why aren't there some special visual effects, even if nobody knows what they should be? Well, chalk it up to lack of interest, lack of desire, or lack of willingness to spend any more funding developing a relatively minor detail in the game. Personally I'd rather CCP spent time adjusting game mechanics and fixing the damn exceptions the game's been throwing since the patch than some minor visual effects. That's not the answer you're looking for, however. --- BPCs for sale; see character's bio in-game for details. EVEMail if interested. *Nyx Outpost Platforms
Deserak Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.05 03:00:00 - [27] Damn everyone was too fast...I didn't get to say there was 31.536 million seconds in a year
Arkeladin	Posted - 2008.09.05 03:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Arkeladin on 05/09/2008 03:45:10 Originally by: Planks /me puts on specs The boom you hear seems to only occur when you hit max warp speed, be it 3 AU in BC or 13 AU in inties etc. OK so the ship in the warp bubble is not breaking any light speed barrier, but it would be cool if everything outside the bubble that flits by at godknows how many times the speed of light had some sort of distortion effect when the bubble effectively breaks the light barrier. By the way, I've noticed that if you warp a ship that's on fire, the flames stretch out to infinity so maybe this effect is already covered. /me take specs off Look again, and know some real science. Rotate your view around your ship while it's flying in the "tunnel". Notice that there's a color shift as you rotate the view? That's scientifically accurate, and is called "Doppler Effect". As you move down the tunnel at close to lgitspeed, light coming from in front of you is blue-shifted, light behind you is red-shifted due to apparent frequeny-change based on your velocity. Now, CCP is NOT accurate in terms of the intensity of the effect - they are accurate about the effect being there. "Warp" travel is EvE is basically a distance-shrinking effect, that either through folds or some other method shortens the distance between two points, which is why you can't warp to a undefined spot - you need to define the endpoint of the "warp tunnel" to create it. Travel WITHIN the warp tunnel itself is subluminal - otherwise, NOTHING would be able to be seen either inside or outside the tunnel, as all energy waves would be shifted to zero in effect by the relative velocity between them and your ship. The "boom" on entering warp would be excplained by the particles (with their high constant velocity) hitting the back of your ship once warp was entered and your ship itself reached constant velocity. The "light tunneling" effect has already been given a explanation, and is to be expected as the ship closes in on lightspeed. Enough technobabble for you?
Kzintee Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.05 04:47:00 - [29] You get Ludicrous Speed
Paramite Pies Minmatar Kasrkin Innovative Assembly	Posted - 2008.09.05 06:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Kzintee You get Ludicrous Speed Glad I am not the only one who caught that movie today. __________________ EVE-Online. Love it? Hate it? Just play it! Or go back to Runescape.

Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.05 06:46:00 - [31] If you want factual suppositions over what should or should not occur I can't help. However if you want to go with story from the prime fiction... Nothing of what you see has any reference to reality. Now that sounds even crazier but it is factually (according to the prime fiction via CCP) the case. The pod "software" is designed to represent to the pilot what is occurring in a fashion that does not overly strain the consciousness of the pilot. In essence, all that you see is a fabricated representation to keep the pilot's mind from encounter any experience beyond its inherit ability to accept or handle. Hopefully this explains much that may seem discordant with what "we" would expect from the physicality of space flight. Why do we see smoke from missiles? Simply for our minds frame of reference and (I'd suppose) a bit of showing off by the Pod Operating System coders. Why do our ships always bank in turns? Again, to give our minds a visual frame of physicality reference. With momentum our bodies (minds) expect a certain level of mass to gravity influence. Why untrain the mind to un-expect this when you can program in what is expected. However, as far as the fiction goes, nothing of what you see is "actuality". It is simply what the interface represents to you and as your minds capabilities interprets it. This also segues well into roleplay as the actual computer game can be likened to the interface your mind and the o/s presents to you. (I.e. Escape Menu Options) Start here for the Prime Fiction: Jovian Wetgrave. The real life/physics comparison to Eve virtuality is not an exploration I'm going to join in. That discussion will exceed my geek ability. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:39:00 - [32] Originally by: AtomizerX Originally by: Lendwill You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp. I hope I'm not the only one here to read this and realize you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not at all mistaken about warp in Eve, you are. Why don't you do the math and figure it out for yourself? I'd ask you to support your statement but since it's obviously incorrect you just need to realize that for yourself and adjust your post. I'll give you a little hint to get you started: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=1+light+year+in+astronomical+units&btnG=Search So, if 1 ly is equal to over 63k au, and the slowest-warping ship is, what, a Freighter? Then that's 0.7 au/sec... and have you figured it out yet? Or, look at it this way: if you warp from gate-to-gate a distance of, say, 40 au and it DOESN'T take you an imperceptible fraction of a second, then you AREN'T traveling many times faster than the speed of light. I don't have anything personal against you or anyone else, but PLEASE do your research before posting obvious fallacies. Just a tiny point: If one lightyear = 63,000 AU (approx) = the distance traveled by a theoretical beam of light in a theoretical vacuum in one year. then one Light day = 63,000/365 = 172.6 AU then one Light hour = 172.6/24 = 7.19 AU then one Light minute = 7.19/60 = 0.12 AU then one Light second = 0.12/60 = 0.002 AU Therefore light travels at approximately 0.002AU/s while your freighter travels at 0.7AU/s. So even given the figures you yourself provided the Freighter is travelling at about three hundred and fifty times the speed of light. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Patsy kavanagh	Posted - 2008.09.05 09:14:00 - [33] Originally by: AtomizerX Edited by: AtomizerX on 05/09/2008 02:50:47 On second thought, I don't care to get involved in an Internet Argument at the moment. More like on second thoughts, you have realised that not only were you completely wrong but also you were trying to be concending while being so completely wrong
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.09.05 09:31:00 - [34] "Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom!!" My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2008.09.05 09:54:00 - [35] Just a quick info for the more technically oriented. There is a classical physics paper written some years ago from Miguel Alcubierre that shows a spacetime geometry that "begs to be termed Warp Drive". In such geometry, although the ship appears to go faster than light to external observers, it actually is never going faster than the light inside the warp bubble. Of course there are the usual objections on whether that geometry is actually achievable or not, but that has never bothered science fiction. :-)
Ralara Caldari Shadow Incursion	Posted - 2008.09.05 10:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Lendwill If the ships in Eve Online had a visual effect for when they first surpass the speed of light (299 793 km/s), what would it be? Would the ships lights elongate? Would it turn pitch black with no shadows? Is there a rationale behind why there is no visual effect? If so, what is it? There is an effect: the warp tunnel and the blue-shift and red-shift. --
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.05 10:32:00 - [37] Actually the warp drive creates a depleted vacuum in which the speed of light is higher than it is in a normal vacuum. It doesn't warp anything. And a microwarpdrive has nothing to do with a warp drive of any kind either.
Flash Bombardo Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.05 10:34:00 - [38] Eh-eh !! (Wrong answer gameshow noise) "As you pick up speed, the light in front of you would effectively be moving faster due to the relative difference in speed" Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed.
Kappas. Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2008.09.05 12:23:00 - [39] Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed. Link __________________
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.05 12:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Kappas. Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed. Link Glossed over details are glossed over. Also: link. - DesuSigs

Kappas. Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2008.09.05 13:26:00 - [41] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Kappas. Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed. Link Glossed over details are glossed over. Old meme is old. __________________
Mistress Servelan	Posted - 2008.09.05 13:34:00 - [42] lol at these threads. Can I have my 4 seconds back, please? TIA
ZephyrLexx Caldari Earth Federation Space Forces	Posted - 2008.09.05 13:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Abrazzar BTW. The warp tunnel shows a red/blue shift as light would change, depending on the movement towards or away from a light source. That effect is observed in stars moving in relation of (our) earth's perception. I like how CCP took real science into account when developing science fiction effects. yeah, just like how space is really like flying around in a bucket of frogspawn jelly an- oh wait.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.05 14:35:00 - [44] The speed of light is just the end of OUR (humans) visible spectrum. Sound is actually part of this spectrum, however it is waaaaaaaaaaay lower and we experience them as vibrations/sound. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.05 14:36:00 - [45] Originally by: sg3s The speed of light is just the end of OUR (humans) visible spectrum. Sound is actually part of this spectrum, however it is waaaaaaaaaaay lower and we experience them as vibrations/sound. No. - DesuSigs
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.05 14:41:00 - [46] Last time i checked sound required a medium to travel through and light didn't.... Sound is definitely not part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
Flash Bombardo Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.05 15:11:00 - [47] Originally by: sg3s The speed of light is just the end of OUR (humans) visible spectrum. Sound is actually part of this spectrum, however it is waaaaaaaaaaay lower and we experience them as vibrations/sound. Wrongness of the first order. Sound is a kinetic vibration in a medium like air for example. Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation and although its wave like structure shares some similarities weith sound, it is completely different. If you turn the headlights on in a spaceship travelling at the speed of light, does anything happen ?
Flash Bombardo Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.05 15:22:00 - [48] Originally by: Kappas. Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed. Link Erm, what ? They've borked relativity and it wasn't headline news? I suspect not. If you turn the headlights on in a spaceship travelling at the speed of light, does anything happen ?
Dharmic Vision Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.09.05 15:49:00 - [49] Originally by: Flash Bombardo Originally by: Kappas. Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed. Link Erm, what ? They've borked relativity and it wasn't headline news? I suspect not. I've seen this before in Scientific American. Basically, it is a minor statistical difference in the actual speed of an individual photon versus the average, with the uncertainty of quantum mechanics making the difference. It has a lot of maths that I don't follow (not a physicist) but I understand the principle. I see it as a sort of physics bar trick, except needing lab equipment. The experiment pointed to what should be obvious, that there is tiny variance in exactly when photons strike, with the speed of light actually an average with some particles arriving just before others. The difference is minute, and I was not impressed with what it actually meant. The scientists were excited by demonstrating that there WAS a measurable variance and that it could be attenuated to some degree that could be someday incorporated into optical computing, but there was nothing there that actually BROKE relativity. So they could energize photons and make them momentarily faster, like a racehorse that wins by half a length rather than having a photo finish. For all practical purposes, though, it was more a matter of "We have this neat party trick." Not much meat for those of us hoping against hope that we'd ever have SIGNIFICANTLY FTL travel or even communication. And yes, I did see one or two headlines about relativity being broken-- in fundamentalist religious literature that tried to show that science is pure speculative fiction, delivered to my house in the middle of the day.
Sol ExAstris	Posted - 2008.09.05 20:20:00 - [50] Edited by: Sol ExAstris on 05/09/2008 20:23:12 Originally by: Flash Bombardo Eh-eh !! (Wrong answer gameshow noise) "As you pick up speed, the light in front of you would effectively be moving faster due to the relative difference in speed" Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed. Good catch, got careless with the wording. Apparent frequency shifts, not the speed of light. The CCP explanation of a "depleted vacuum" is probably the worst FTL drive explanation I've ever seen imho. The upper limit of the speed of light can be derived from other constants (the electrostatic constant, and the magnetic permeability constant if memory servers, but its been a while since I've seen that stuff), and can not be accelerated any more by removing stuff that could be in its way. To accelerate the light any faster you would have to change the values of those constants, which would jack the whole universe up since they also dictate things like basic atomic structure and chemical interaction.

Marsman37X Amarr Alder Space Pioneers	Posted - 2008.09.05 21:51:00 - [51] a visual 'sonic boom' would be cool, in a stuning shade of blue if i had my choice
Sardukarr	Posted - 2008.09.05 22:20:00 - [52] stupid question 1... In the real non-fiction world...what about going 99.999999999% the speed of light? stupid question 2... who has my pants? "no more damn DESERTS!"
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.09.05 22:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Khandara Seraphim Last time i checked sound required a medium to travel through and light didn't.... Sound is definitely not part of the electromagnetic spectrum. The electromagnetic spectrum requires a medium too. Nothing exists in this universe without a medium. The fact we don't yet fully understand the EM medium is just a lack of knowledge and advancement. Call the medium Space-Time, Einstein did. 50 years ago people believed that radio waves traveled via "ether". The term ethernet is based on this fallacy of science. ______________________________________________ Goon FC(08/12/06):"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.09.05 22:29:00 - [54] imagine the eve warp like a krylov tube, the tube is a faster than light pathway, but within you are going much slower than light due to frame dragging.
Setarcos Nous	Posted - 2008.09.05 23:26:00 - [55] Originally by: Sol ExAstris The CCP explanation of a "depleted vacuum" is probably the worst FTL drive explanation I've ever seen imho. ... To accelerate the light any faster you would have to change the values of those constants, which would jack the whole universe up ... Sounds like we found an in game explanation for lag.
Antimony Noske	Posted - 2008.09.06 00:48:00 - [56] I'll post some pictures for people who'd like to see what lightspeed [or relativistic] travel looks like. Here is your ship standing still: Here is your ship traveling at half the speed of light. Note how light coming from various angles seems to move: Now we are at 0.99c. The aberrations in the light you see are pretty large now. Light coming from 175 degrees behind you appear to you as a little under 120 degrees. In this image our spaceship is traveling to the left. Light has higher energy to the front, and blueshifts. Lower energy to the back, and redshifts. You can see how light from behind the spacecraft begins to wrap-around towards the front. This is similar to a fish-eye view: Finally, here is a youtube video to help you visualize what happens: Optical Effects of Special Relativity
Antimony Noske	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:51:00 - [57] Edited by: Antimony Noske on 06/09/2008 05:52:20 Originally by: Shar Tegral The pod "software" is designed to represent to the pilot what is occurring in a fashion that does not overly strain the consciousness of the pilot. In essence, all that you see is a fabricated representation to keep the pilot's mind from encounter any experience beyond its inherit ability to accept or handle. Hopefully this explains much that may seem discordant with what "we" would expect from the physicality of space flight. Why do our ships always bank in turns? Again, to give our minds a visual frame of physicality reference. With momentum our bodies (minds) expect a certain level of mass to gravity influence. Why untrain the mind to un-expect this when you can program in what is expected. However, as far as the fiction goes, nothing of what you see is "actuality". It is simply what the interface represents to you and as your minds capabilities interprets it. This also segues well into roleplay as the actual computer game can be likened to the interface your mind and the o/s presents to you. (I.e. Escape Menu Options) The real life/physics comparison to Eve virtuality is not an exploration I'm going to join in. That discussion will exceed my geek ability.[/justify] Doesn't exceed mine, though. Okay to start off with: Missiles [and other spaceships] use some simple newtonian mechanics for propulsion. In this case: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Rockets have rocket fuel which they burn to produce thrust. This thrust is a jet of particles and plasma. So the smoke trails from missiles could be construed as ash or unburnt fuel. Now, as to why ships in Eve bank through turns: Science fiction, and it's a game. Real orbital mechanics are a lot more complicated than what you see in Eve. There are a great number of restrictions on what is and is not possible or efficient. One thing to keep in mind in regards to orbital mechanics is that you are always moving. Always. Even a geosynchronous orbit around the Earth is still orbiting with the Earth around the sun, and with the sun around the Galaxy, it all depends on your perspective. Now then: think of your spaceship as a bullet. When you fire a bullet, it eventually falls back to the ground because of gravity. Well, we take this concept a step further when a spaceship goes into orbit. It behaves very much like a bullet, except it is going too fast to hit the ground, or in other words, it's missing it. Gravity tries to pull it in, but the spaceship moves forward too fast, instead you curve around and around and around the planetary body. Another way to think of it is that your spaceship is a marble, and planets are shallow bowls embedded in a table, the marble goes around and around. Traveling to another planet [by not using super-luminal drives/following the laws of physics] involves speeding up your spaceship so that it goes fast enough to leave a planet's gravity well. [Rule of thumb: Slowing down in orbit decreases your altitude. Speeding up increases it. To land on a planet, you don't point your ship down, you point it backwards.] To travel to another planet you basically speed up at the right point in your orbit so that you are flung out and eventually intercept your target. Combat in space itself is both complicated and simple. Everyone follows ballistic trajectories at ludicrous speed. Changing direction is not easy, and at the speeds involved, a pebble is enough to seriously damage or destroy your ship. Battle are nothing like what you might see in Battlestar Galactica - Ships do not behave like hulking behemoths and will not sit a few kilometers away from each other while in orbit. [This is partly because of how difficult it is to match orbits, and also because matching orbits is wholly unnecessary.] Anyways, running out of room, for those interested there is more information available at: Atomic Rockets Questions welcome!
Sol ExAstris	Posted - 2008.09.07 18:28:00 - [58] Edited by: Sol ExAstris on 07/09/2008 18:29:12 Originally by: Locke DieDrak The electromagnetic spectrum requires a medium too. Nothing exists in this universe without a medium. The fact we don't yet fully understand the EM medium is just a lack of knowledge and advancement. Call the medium Space-Time, Einstein did. 50 years ago people believed that radio waves traveled via "ether". The term ethernet is based on this fallacy of science. Radio waves are electromagnetic waves. There is indeed no "ether" to the universe, and hence the only 'medium' through which light travels is the universe itself (Space-Time), and that only assumes you can call space-time a medium since its a mathematical construct and not a physical entity like the particles in the atmosphere that make it a medium for energy transmission. If light has a proper medium, its the fields it carries with itself in the elctric and magnetic components of its self-propogation.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.09.07 18:56:00 - [59] lies lies lies lies. all energy and matter we see does travel through a medium. it travels through a uniform field of underlying energy that we can not detect (because its uniform) ^____^ Everything that exists is a flaw in this whatever it is. now excuse me while i try and fabricate my zero point bomb out of these 9 volt batteries.


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