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Love Clam	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:47:00 - [1] It has become a trend to use spamming general discussion as a means of accomplishing an objective. Im sure a fairly small percentage of people actually use these forums but certainly having all your alts and your friends create a post everyday called "My Why Hi Sec Is Bad Whinethread" can make it look like there are a large number of people that would like to see a change. What motivates these threads? Greed Wanting the game to be easier for you Legitimate concerns. Greed probably covers most of the current hi sec nerf related threads: If hi sec gets nerfed who is in the best position to make ISK? Certainly wanting the game to be easier fits into this: If no one can make a living in empire then a small percentage of the playerbase is in a position to have a much easier life. Legitimate concerns? Every ship in the game fits a damper - legit. Every ship in the game fits a nano - legit. Please CCP dont make the mistake of thinking there is anything legitimate at all about the current spate of threads calling for hi sec ner***e, they fit solely into categories 1 and 2. I imagine the number of alt accounts is dwindling at the minute and now is a delicate time for Eve: get it right and subscriber numbers will continue to increase, get it wrong and you might as well start that inscription for your tomb stone.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:51:00 - [2] Edited by: Maximillian Bayonette on 08/09/2008 16:53:21 Nope, you're wrong, but you continue believing what you wrote if that makes you sleep better at night. It's amusing how desperate you carebear alts are getting. Afraid that CCP might actually balance their game properly? /Edit: Love Clam sounds an aweful lot like one of those isk farming botters operating out of Ingunn. Never heard of isk farmers posting in readable English before.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:54:00 - [3] First, I think true hisec occupants would adjust to most of the suggested changes in hisec. You think they would leave. These are our opinions and observations, backed by no empirical evidence for or against. Let's please keep this in mind. Second, what one person sees as a legitimate advantage, another will see as an unfair disadvantage. Just as you see these forums littered with complaints about salvage ninjas, ore thieves, suicide attackers, 'losec is full of pirates' and 'EvE will never grow if it keeps allowing players to kill each other', they are littered with the opposite. Though I admit, the hisec-nerf threads have gotten a little out of whack. Third, there are many legitimate concerns with perceived imbalances. The fact that you don't respect the opinions of others and thus class them out and warn CCP to ignore them completely speaks volumes of your personal bias and vendetta. CCP should never ignore a complaint, but I think most complaints will be proven to be nothing more than user preference, and little to do with actual gameplay dynamics being flawed. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Love Clam	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:56:00 - [4] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Nope, you're wrong thank you for your succinct and penetrating insights I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. also lol on the edit CCP wants a bigger chunk of the market that involves bringing in lots of players that....wait for it....are going to want to PVE in hi sec. If they make the mistake of hitting it too hard they can kiss those people good bye.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Love Clam It has become a trend to use spamming general discussion as a means of accomplishing an objective. Im sure a fairly small percentage of people actually use these forums but certainly having all your alts and your friends create a post everyday called "My Why Hi Sec Is Bad Whinethread" can make it look like there are a large number of people that would like to see a change. What motivates these threads? Greed Wanting the game to be easier for you Legitimate concerns. Greed probably covers most of the current hi sec nerf related threads: If hi sec gets nerfed who is in the best position to make ISK? Certainly wanting the game to be easier fits into this: If no one can make a living in empire then a small percentage of the playerbase is in a position to have a much easier life. Legitimate concerns? Every ship in the game fits a damper - legit. Every ship in the game fits a nano - legit. Please CCP dont make the mistake of thinking there is anything legitimate at all about the current spate of threads calling for hi sec ner***e, they fit solely into categories 1 and 2. I imagine the number of alt accounts is dwindling at the minute and now is a delicate time for Eve: get it right and subscriber numbers will continue to increase, get it wrong and you might as well start that inscription for your tomb stone. Posting in an "ISK farmer revenge thread". CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Love Clam	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:57:00 - [6] Originally by: Ruze The fact that you don't respect the opinions of others and thus class them out and warn CCP to ignore them completely speaks volumes of your personal bias and vendetta.. whats good for the goose...
Love Clam	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Malcanis Posting in an "ISK farmer revenge thread". quoting spam.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Love Clam Originally by: Ruze The fact that you don't respect the opinions of others and thus class them out and warn CCP to ignore them completely speaks volumes of your personal bias and vendetta.. whats good for the goose... ...is exactly what the carebear whiners who have threadnaughted their way into safety are getting. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Malcanis Posting in an "ISK farmer revenge thread". Hmm. First three replies are made by the kings of the 'hisec is imbalanced' argument. A-M-A-Z-I-N-G And lets not start that DD troll sht. It's annoying enough having to ignore his dumb ss ... Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:59:00 - [10] Originally by: Love Clam Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Nope, you're wrong thank you for your succinct and penetrating insights I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. also lol on the edit CCP wants a bigger chunk of the market that involves bringing in lots of players that....wait for it....are going to want to PVE in hi sec. If they make the mistake of hitting it too hard they can kiss those people good bye. If CCP does what you say they should do, Eve will be dead within six months. CCP knows this. They aren't stupid like you, you see. Eve has always been, and - as long as some of the more carebear minded new devs are put on a leash - always will be a PvP centric cold and harsh universe. Some of you want to mess up this system that has worked for five years. Those of us who are able to think further than our own selfish needs will do what we can to make CCP realise that catering to their original subscribers is what has kept the game going, and catering to game-hopping carebear wusses like you will be the end of the game.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Malcanis Posting in an "ISK farmer revenge thread". Hmm. First three replies are made by the kings of the 'hisec is imbalanced' argument. A-M-A-Z-I-N-G And lets not start that DD troll sht. It's annoying enough having to ignore his dumb ss ... You can't possibly expect me to resist that kind of temptation. After all, I am a griefing immoral cowardly pirate ganker, am I not? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Love Clam	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Eve has always been, and - as long as some of the more carebear minded new devs are put on a leash - always will be a PvP centric cold and harsh universe. Some of you want to mess up this system that has worked for five years. Those of us who are able to think further than our own selfish needs will do what we can to make CCP realise that catering to their original subscribers is what has kept the game going, and catering to game-hopping carebear wusses like you will be the end of the game. I think the times, they are achanging. now whats that thingy, that phrase again? oh yeah: Adapt or gbtw
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette If CCP does what you say they should do, Eve will be dead within six months. CCP knows this. They aren't stupid like you, you see. Eve has always been, and - as long as some of the more carebear minded new devs are put on a leash - always will be a PvP centric cold and harsh universe. Some of you want to mess up this system that has worked for five years. Those of us who are able to think further than our own selfish needs will do what we can to make CCP realise that catering to their original subscribers is what has kept the game going, and catering to game-hopping carebear wusses like you will be the end of the game. I think this is following the same assumptions the op is making, though. CCP makes a change that impacts many lives (whether the individuals know it or not), and instead of a mass exodus of all those hardcore PvPers, they adapted. If CCP changed hisec to be safer but far less profitable, you most likely would not see a mass emoragequit, but players just adapting within three weeks to the new status quo. Course, if they do end up going to far in betraying the loyal playerbase with 2+ years per account, the game will crash. What line is drawn in the sand? There isn't one. It's different for everybody. Most won't realize that they are betrayed until well after it happens, and I think CCP's smart enough to do it slowly. But you ** off 30k subscribers to gain 40k more, and that's 30,000 players going from forum to forum sharing how CCP is worse than SOE, don't play EvE, and how anything CCP produces is a lie. Negative word of mouth and bad advertising will KILL a game quicker than anything else. And it kills that game, and will put the nail in the coffin for WOD well before it comes out. Originally by:** CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Love Clam Greed probably covers most of the current hi sec nerf related threads: If hi sec gets nerfed who is in the best position to make ISK? People who are willing to leave hi-sec. Terrible isn't it, being rewarded for taking risks, whatever next. Originally by: Love Clam Certainly wanting the game to be easier fits into this: If no one can make a living in empire then a small percentage of the playerbase is in a position to have a much easier life. Quite the opposite, it's too easy, I'd like it to be able to take greater challenges and be rewarded for them. Originally by: Love Clam Legitimate concerns? Every ship in the game fits a damper - legit. Every ship in the game fits a nano - legit. This has what to do with your argument? Originally by: Love Clam Please CCP dont make the mistake of thinking there is anything legitimate at all about the current spate of threads calling for hi sec ner*e, they fit solely into categories 1 and 2. Your trolling right? "Don't listen to anyone else listen to me, they all have selfish motives and mine are pure?" How absurd. Originally by:** Love Clam I imagine the number of alt accounts is dwindling at the minute and now is a delicate time for Eve: get it right and subscriber numbers will continue to increase, get it wrong and you might as well start that inscription for your tomb stone. "Listen to me or die! I know whats best for EVE my opinion is fact for I has seen teh future. Dooom... DOOOOOOOM!" You know what might actually kill this game? Becoming just another MMO. Ceasing to appeal to it's niche market. Because there will be other games in time and they will appeal to those seeking complete safety and quality PvE far more than EVE does and many of them will leave. There is too much easy money in EVE, there are too many people "finishing" the hi-sec game and leaving for other pursuits, there's not enough reason to go out and PvP when many of the best rewards are in hi-sec. It's like putting many of the best items in the starting area of a game. No one is being forced out of hi-sec, most of us don't want people forced out of hi-sec, we want reasons for to leave, reasons to play the game. I want hi-sec to remain for casual players, the PvE crowd, and even for me when I want to play in peace. But I also want there to be reasons to form social groups, to be creative, to get out there, and do stuff.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Love Clam Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Eve has always been, and - as long as some of the more carebear minded new devs are put on a leash - always will be a PvP centric cold and harsh universe. Some of you want to mess up this system that has worked for five years. Those of us who are able to think further than our own selfish needs will do what we can to make CCP realise that catering to their original subscribers is what has kept the game going, and catering to game-hopping carebear wusses like you will be the end of the game. I think the times, they are achanging. now whats that thingy, that phrase again? Your happy until you realize that CCP care's very little for the player experience or keeping their promises, and if they betray one they betray all. Don't try to fool yourself. If a bunch of players quit in anger because of something CCP did that changed the core concept of why they play the game, you would most likely jump off what you'd perceive to be a sinking ship. Market FACTS prove that the PvE playerbase that these changes seem to be appealing to have three-to-seven month max attention spans. EvE's PvE content is horrible compared to games geared specifically around that content. The game design of EvE means that the more players in fewer systems, the worst their game experience will be (lag). Without the loyal PvPers, the market dies. Numbers start to go down, more players start to leave cause they were iffy anyway. Lot's of factors and suppositions here. But for five years EvE has had a steady track record of success. Why would they jeapordize that now, I wonder, to appeal to an audience that won't stay around? Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Love Clam	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:16:00 - [16] I wonder too. Yet can you argue that they are doing anything else? Many of the recent changes seem to be taking eve in this direction. Pleasure to debate a point with someone that actual debates it Ruze. To quote/reply/quote/reply/quote/reply person: TL:DR
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Love Clam I wonder too. Yet can you argue that they are doing anything else? Many of the recent changes seem to be taking eve in this direction. Pleasure to debate a point with someone that actual debates it Ruze. To quote/reply/quote/reply/quote/reply person: TL:DR Irony overload.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Love Clam I wonder too. Yet can you argue that they are doing anything else? Many of the recent changes seem to be taking eve in this direction. Pleasure to debate a point with someone that actual debates it Ruze. To quote/reply/quote/reply/quote/reply person: TL:DR Greyscale seems to have affirmed my own fear that they are trying to trying to reach that kind of audience. I fear it, because one of the reasons I don't play other MMORPG's on the market is because I don't like that type of game. Hisec is where we PvE, losec is the battlegrounds, and nulsec is where we play 'empires'. I've seen all kinds of arguments go both ways, taken part in a bunch of them (on both sides), and have come to one conclusion, even if it doesn't solve everything. It's all a matter of security and the tradeoff your willing to make for it. In losec or nulsec, security is gotten from effort, either yours or those of your teammates. Profit made from whatever activity you do is subject to many hardships, not the least of which being finite resources, logistics to market what is gotten, and effort to operate securely without losing your equipment/pod. Hisec, though, is becoming safer by the patch. Is something wrong with that? Not really. I don't like it that way, but it ain't my game. I would like to see a more robust system of crime, more ways for players to be 'good guys', overall more player interaction. Not the cheap method of invincible NPC's that are also infallible. So if they aren't going to make it more robust, at least do something to counter it. Let players who wish to live in hisec under the protection of the NPCs' to still pay for that protection. They don't have to expend effort for it, but I do think they should be taxed. Again, when a tax is implemented, the hisec guys would adapt. Those looking for the best profit, the guys already simply using hisec for the cheap income source it provides, would move to the next best thing. But it would offer different 'flavor' to the mix, and effect every hisec occupation equally (instead of just missioners or miners). Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:31:00 - [19] Originally by: Lady Karma Originally by: Love Clam I wonder too. Yet can you argue that they are doing anything else? Many of the recent changes seem to be taking eve in this direction. Pleasure to debate a point with someone that actual debates it Ruze. To quote/reply/quote/reply/quote/reply person: TL:DR Irony overload. Hey, I just threw my shirt in the dryer this morning. I didn't iron anything, so I'm not sure how I could have overloaded said irons ... Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:32:00 - [20] Originally by: Love Clam What motivates these threads? Greed Wanting the game to be easier for you Legitimate concerns. You missed a couple People like you that want to turn the game into hello kitty online Lulz
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:37:00 - [21] Edited by: SoftRevolution on 08/09/2008 17:37:21 Quote: Hisec, though, is becoming safer by the patch. Is something wrong with that? Not really. I don't like it that way, but it ain't my game. I would like to see a more robust system of crime, more ways for players to be 'good guys', overall more player interaction. Not the cheap method of invincible NPC's that are also infallible. This could definitely be a bit deeper than it is now. EA / FW seems like the ideal opportunity to introduce this. I like the concept of having letters of marquee and it being fine and dandy with the Gall Fed if I hunt Caldari shipping generally. It'd have to be based on standings I think. Also, a tax system seems to address the concerns of the "HIGH SEC IS FULL OF ALTS! " crowd without stepping on the "ZOMG PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SHOOT ME! " crowd's toes too much. They could even tie it in with the war dec revisions somehow. EVE RELATED CONTENT
Sarin Adler Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:41:00 - [22] Lvl4 are being stealth-nerfed (harder & less rewards for a lot of the new missions), CCP is aware of the problem, carebears have lost allready. The next steep is to bost lowsec. --- Alts, the root of all evil.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:42:00 - [23] Considering that there's a lobby going both ways, CCP is most likely just going to do whatever they want. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:42:00 - [24] Originally by: Love Clam It has become a trend to use spamming general discussion as a means of accomplishing an objective. Im sure a fairly small percentage of people actually use these forums but certainly having all your alts and your friends create a post everyday called "My Why Hi Sec Is Bad Whinethread" can make it look like there are a large number of people that would like to see a change. What motivates these threads? Greed Wanting the game to be easier for you Legitimate concerns. Greed probably covers most of the current hi sec nerf related threads: If hi sec gets nerfed who is in the best position to make ISK? Certainly wanting the game to be easier fits into this: If no one can make a living in empire then a small percentage of the playerbase is in a position to have a much easier life. Legitimate concerns? Every ship in the game fits a damper - legit. Every ship in the game fits a nano - legit. Please CCP dont make the mistake of thinking there is anything legitimate at all about the current spate of threads calling for hi sec ner*e, they fit solely into categories 1 and 2. I imagine the number of alt accounts is dwindling at the minute and now is a delicate time for Eve: get it right and subscriber numbers will continue to increase, get it wrong and you might as well start that inscription for your tomb stone. dont worry, carebear...your High Security space wont be nerfed. If anything, it will be made more secure for you tools. _____________________ Originally by:** Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:46:00 - [25] Why is it always, "My way or Eve will die"? Whatever. Here's a poser for you: - If CCP created the Overdrive module - and they created the microwarp drive module - and they also created pirate implants - and they created leadership skills and gang warfare links - and then later they created the polycarbon engine housing rig and drug boosters that upped speed = Do you think that the combination of all that maybe resulted in things going a wee bit fast? (come on... it's an easy one) Here's another: - If CCP created the insurance mechanism which worked pretty well when the mineral market was in one state - then later they created the drone regions which has put the mineral market in another state = Do you think that might have resulted in a situation where battleships only have an end cost of 7-9million isk? And maybe that is bad for the game as a whole? Well, it lead to the increase in suicide ganking, and judging by your tone I would guess you would probably vote well on the side of, "Suicide ganking = Bad". So, here's your last one: - If CCP created a game that was seemingly based on risk vs reward judging by the incremental value in resources the further away from hisec space you got - Then CCP added many other things which took that ratio of incremental value and skewed it drastically to a more black and white line which resulted in alot of the lowsec value ending up on par with hisec = Would you maybe conclude that the game is possibly a bit out of wack? That the people voicing the opinion that it is indeed out of wack might not care about anyone's greed or ease of gaming and just want to see things returned to a balanced state? I think we have established in the first two examples that CCP is not infallible. They make changes to the game that have repercussions they didn't intend and things go off track a bit. Otherwise why would they have just made a change to CONCORD? "Woops. We didn't intend that. Let's bring that one back in line." So tell me, oh Shellfish of Love, why is it that the "legitimate balance concerns" are only ever legitimate when they affect the hisec crowd adversely? Like... suicide ganking. Any positives that get unintentionally floated hisec's way, well... "those are OUR RIGHT!" That is, if CCP doesn't want their game to die. It seems pretty ironic that you would call out greed as a motivator when the hisec people benefiting from unintentional love are as tight lipped about it as... clams. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:51:00 - [26] Edited by: Ruze on 08/09/2008 17:51:39 Just to tickle your ntsack a little, Roy, but you make some damn good arguments at times. Originally by:* CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.09.08 18:00:00 - [27] Originally by: Ruze Edited by: Ruze on 08/09/2008 17:51:39 Just to tickle your n*tsack a little, Roy, but you make some damn good arguments at times. alt spotted. - -
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon	Posted - 2008.09.08 18:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Faife Originally by: Ruze Edited by: Ruze on 08/09/2008 17:51:39 Just to tickle your n*tsack a little, Roy, but you make some damn good arguments at times. alt spotted. Not quite
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.08 18:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Faife Originally by: Ruze Edited by: Ruze on 08/09/2008 17:51:39 Just to tickle your n*tsack a little, Roy, but you make some damn good arguments at times. alt spotted. Thanks for the compliment, Ruze. Now get back to haulin them rocks! No time for poastin! Hut, hut, hut, move it! <3 Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Love Clam	Posted - 2008.09.08 18:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Hieronimus Rex People like you that want to turn the game into hello kitty online My main is SirMolle and im going to make you feel my Titan for that. Roy: good arguments what can i say? I suppose more than anything I was looking to say: Dont listen - to me or anyone else for that matter. Ive enjoyed everything CCP have done so far but lately they seem a little too swayed by general discussion for my liking.

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