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The "airplane on a conveyor belt" thought experiment... just... ouch.

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Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:35:00 - [61] Originally by: Kaeten Edited by: Kaeten on 09/09/2008 15:33:03 Originally by: Reven Cordelle If planes flew by "blowing air" over their lift surfaces, jet planes would not get off the ground, neither would airliners or microlites." the thing is that those jetplans ACTULLY MOVE and are not sitting on a convayer belt... so ofc it wouldn't take off the engine PULLS the whole aircraft forward, as the wings are moving through the air it provides lift. I swear you're lacking a couple of braincells, you just contradicted your own ****ing drawing. You've inadvertantly answered your own question as to why ANY plane will take off if sat on a conveyor. Either you're like.. incredibly young and have not yet finished school, which i can allow for.. Or you need to go back to school. I can't tell.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:35:00 - [62] HOLY CRAP people! Can you PLEASE get out of the dark middle age? Abandon all that witchcraft, folks. It's really simple: As long as airplane wheels can spin freely (and thats how they are built these days, and theres no word about the fictional pilot pulling the fictional wheelbrakes on the fictional plane), it doesnt matter what the conveyor belt does. The planes propeller/jet engines pulls the plane through the air, which is the medium that matters... Short version: it takes off just fine. Only chance it doesnt would be; conveyor belt moves so fast that the ballbearings/tires melt and lock up the wheels.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:36:00 - [63] Originally by: Reven Cordelle gain lift from their local air whilst the engine propels the plane through the air. this local air must be moving over the wings for the wings to provide lift yes? question is, if the propeller isn't making this air move through the wings.. what is? Cause if my mind, I wing can't just sit still and lift itself. ________________________ I'M POOR
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:37:00 - [64] Yes it will take off because it isn't driven by it's wheels, they are just there to minimise friction between the plane and the ground. Therefore the thrust from the engines will give it the required air speed, which is what it needs to get lift, and bears no relation to the wheels and the conveyor belt. -------------------- What? Me Worry? --------------------
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:37:00 - [65] Originally by: P'uck HOLY CRAP people! Can you PLEASE get out of the dark middle age? Abandon all that witchcraft, folks. It's really simple: As long as airplane wheels can spin freely (and thats how they are built these days, and theres no word about the fictional pilot pulling the fictional wheelbrakes on the fictional plane), it doesnt matter what the conveyor belt does. The planes propeller/jet engines pulls the plane through the air, which is the medium that matters... Short version: it takes off just fine. Only chance it doesnt would be; conveyor belt moves so fast that the ballbearings/tires melt and lock up the wheels. middle age lol. I want ot understand why it's like this, something wrong with learning? In my mind it can't, thats why I'm arguing out all my points. ________________________ I'M POOR
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:38:00 - [66] Originally by: Bistot Kid Yes it will take off because it isn't driven by it's wheels, they are just there to minimise friction between the plane and the ground. Therefore the thrust from the engines will give it the required air speed, which is what it needs to get lift, and bears no relation to the wheels and the conveyor belt. the ground has nothing to do with the air, it's the air that lifts the plane ________________________ I'M POOR
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:41:00 - [67] Originally by: Kaeten heres my thoughts in a picture /facepalm To simply show you how ridiculous your concept is... how do you explain jets fly ? The air doesn't get "sucked" over any wings at all by the jet engines. The engines simply supply FORWARD THRUST (they push back the air very fast, so even if the air is very light, the speed at which it's pushed gives enough counter-force to the propeller, which pulls the engine forward), which causes the airplane to move forward eventually (the only thing attempting to pull it backwards is MINOR friction from the wheels, and minor drag from the non-propeller-moved air), which in turn causes the stationary air to flow over the now-starting-to-move wings of the airplane, which in turn provide lift. No motion, no lift, no matter how hard the (horizontal) propellers might blow, how many there are or wherever the hell they're located on the wing. The only way to get lift like that from a propeller is if the propellers were NOT orientated horizontally but at an angle, or even vertically (see VTOL aircraft). _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:43:00 - [68] Edited by: Kaeten on 09/09/2008 15:44:07 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kaeten heres my thoughts in a picture /facepalm To simply show you how ridiculous your concept is... how do you explain jets fly ? The air doesn't get "sucked" over any wings at all by the jet engines. the jet engine sucks the plane through the air. as the plane moves through the air, the wings pass through the air, and provide lift... i think you misunderstood the purpose of that picture, the picture is as if that plane was on a converyer belt as was "stationary". ________________________ I'M POOR
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:45:00 - [69] Originally by: Kaeten Originally by: Reven Cordelle gain lift from their local air whilst the engine propels the plane through the air. this local air must be moving over the wings for the wings to provide lift yes? question is, if the propeller isn't making this air move through the wings.. what is. as far as i can remember the airflow the propeller pushes over the wings is rather neglectable when it comes to lift. the propeller creates lift over its blades and thus pulls the plane forward. the plane accelerates through the air, thus creating lift on its wings. if the propeller-pushed airstream would be fast enough for that effect, you could chain a cessna to the rear wall of the hangar, turn on the engine, and float on the spot.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:46:00 - [70] Edited by: Kaeten on 09/09/2008 15:46:25 Originally by: P'uck the plane accelerates through the air, thus creating lift on its wings. the thing is, the wings arent moving at all, you could walk forward to them and poke them because the planes on a conveyer belt... ________________________ I'M POOR
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:51:00 - [71] Edited by: P''uck on 09/09/2008 15:51:47 that's just a fallacy, think again. or different: how exactly would the conveyor be keeping the propeller from creating (forward) lift on itself?
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:53:00 - [72] Edited by: Kaeten on 09/09/2008 15:53:31 Originally by: P'uck that's just a fallacy, think again. so I'm standing on the ground watching this experiment, to MY EYE it looks like it's standing still? ________________________ I'M POOR
Voltain BEER Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:56:00 - [73] Originally by: Kaeten the jet engine sucks the plane through the air. as the plane moves through the air, the wings pass through the air, and provide lift... A Jet engine compresses air it intakes, adds fuel and burns it out the back. The sucking bit of a jet engine can just be seen as fuel (the air part); it provides no thrust, which comes out of the back burny end. DesuSig
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:56:00 - [74] Originally by: P'uck The planes propeller/jet engines pulls the plane through the air, which is the medium that matters... can agree with the the plane is being pulled through the air. However where does the air around it's wings get its speed(to mkae the wings lift)? ________________________ I'M POOR
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:57:00 - [75] Originally by: Voltain Originally by: Kaeten the jet engine sucks the plane through the air. as the plane moves through the air, the wings pass through the air, and provide lift... A Jet engine compresses air it intakes, adds fuel and burns it out the back. The sucking bit of a jet engine can just be seen as fuel (the air part); it provides no thrust, which comes out of the back burny end. kk, I don't know how it works tbh, i know just that it sucks air into the engine and makes the thing go forward lol. ________________________ I'M POOR
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.09 16:04:00 - [76] Edited by: Akita T on 09/09/2008 16:06:00 Originally by: Kaeten the jet engine sucks the plane through the air. as the plane moves through the air, the wings pass through the air, and provide lift... So, how's a propeller different from a jet, eh ? They both serve the exact same purpose (suck air in front, eject in the back), the only difference is in how they do it (mainly mechanic vs mainly thermal). Quote: i think you misunderstood the purpose of that picture, the picture is as if that plane was on a converyer belt as was "stationary". ...and the next split second, the propeller itself (pushed forward by the air it displaced towards the back) starts pulling the airplane forward, while there's still no significant air drag to the airplane (far less than forward pull from the propeller anyway), there's little or next to no friction force from the wheels either, which spin around freely, and the plane picks up speed the exact same way as it would do if it was powered by a jet engine. EDIT: Originally by: Kaeten can agree with the the plane is being pulled through the air. However where does the air around it's wings get its speed(to mkae the wings lift)? The air doesn't get any speed. The air sits still. It's the plane that's moving. It was never stationary to begin with ever since it fired its engines, it was constantly picking up speed. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.09 16:08:00 - [77] There's a lot of stuff moving RELATIVE to each other, and that's where all the mysteries are at
Int3r Minmatar Athena Enterprises Caduceus Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.09 16:10:00 - [78] Step by step: The plane starts to move forward relative to the air around it. The conveyor belt adjusts its speed, to compensate for the accelleration of the wheels. The wheels instantly accellerate to the new speed of the conveyor belt, plus the speed of the plane relative to the air (and the base of the conveyor belt). The conveyor belt tries to match the speed of the wheels again, but in the meantime the plane has already started to move. The wheels instantly take on the new belt speed, plus the current speed of the plane, etc.. It breaks down to 4 scenarios: Scenario 1 "the thrust lever of death" The wheels are frictionless, and the conveyor belt can adjust speed instantly. As soon as the pilot pushes the thrust lever, the whole situation starts to suck badly. The belt instantly accellerates to such ludicrous speeds that the conveyor belt explodes in a burning plasma ball of death, taking everything with it. Ofcourse, the plane fails to take off. Scenario 2 "stuck by the teeth" The belt can adjust speed very fast, and the belt is stronger than the wheels of the plane. When the pilot starts to accellerate the plane, the belt will keep trying to match the speed of the wheels so fast, that the wheels burn op. Plane gets stuck, and the happy belt stops. Scenario 3 "So long, sucker" The belt can adjust speed very fast, and the belt is weaker than the wheels of the plane. Same story as scenario 2, except that the belt breaks down, and the plane takes off with insanely hot wheels. Scenario 4 "The boring real world" The belt is slow as crap at adjusting speed. The plane starts to move, and the belt adjust speed to match the new speed of the wheels. The wheels instantly take on the new belt speed + plane speed, and it takes time for the belt to realize that. The plane takes off without much hassle. btw, Akita, tnx for the picture, it took a while before i got it
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 16:11:00 - [79] I don't know why yous are all saying that the plane was stationary then, becasue if it was it wouldn't lift, however as the drag is comming from the air the plane is infact moving forwards. Would be diffrent if the car got its propulsion from the groudn with it's wheels. ok cool thanks guys, think I understand now ________________________ I'M POOR
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 16:12:00 - [80] Originally by: P'uck There's a lot of stuff moving RELATIVE to each other, and that's where all the mysteries are at i'm pretty tired and forgot the fact that the thrust comes from the air and not the ground lol ________________________ I'M POOR
Bish Ounen Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.09.09 17:42:00 - [81] Uhhh... guys? Mythbusters already did this one. They created a simulation of a giant conveyor by dragging a superlong, superstrong sheet of special cloth behind a truck. (simulates the moving top of a conveyor belt) They put a piper cub on the cloth facing the opposite direction of the "conveyor" motion, and the damn thing took off easily. Why? BECAUSE THE PLANE'S WHEELS ARE FREE SPINNING! The forward momentum is provided entirely by the prop. The wheels are superfluous and impart so little backward momentum due to friction that the engine AT IDLE can easily overcome it. All that happens during takeoff is that the wheels spin really fast, the plane moves forward as normal, and takes off as normal. Another way of approaching the problem is to take the wheels entirely out of the equation: Can a FLOAT PLANE take off from a (rapids free) river in an UPSTREAM direction? Absolutely. The physics are no different on the "conveyor", provided the conveyor is long enough for the plane to gain takeoff speed without falling off the end. It makes no difference how fast the conveyor is going, the plane will always take off. You guys seriously need to watch Mythbusters more often. Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
Ryysa Paisti Paisti Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 17:48:00 - [82] Holy shit Kaeten. Go to school and stop drinking. EW Guide - KB Tool - My Music
KingsGambit Caldari Knights	Posted - 2008.09.09 17:53:00 - [83] Originally by: Akita T If you and me (assumed to be identical in physical stats) are sitting on an icy lake and there's two wooden planks on top of eachother, and I want to move the upper plank in my direction, while you attempt to stop me from doing that by pulling the bottom plank in the opposite direction... can you stop me ? Or, better still, what exactly do you think it will happen ? WTF? Originally by: KaiTech The plane would only take of if the airspeed around it's wings would be high enough, it's got nothing to do with the groundspeed. This is exactly correct. The ground speed is negated by the conveyer belt and thus the plane is effectively standing still relative to the wind. Therefore it cannot take-off. -------------
Inoshuu Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.09 17:58:00 - [84]
Bish Ounen Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.09.09 18:04:00 - [85] Edited by: Bish Ounen on 09/09/2008 18:06:35 Originally by: KingsGambit This is exactly correct. The ground speed is negated by the conveyer belt and thus the plane is effectively standing still relative to the wind. Therefore it cannot take-off. This is exactly WRONG. Go watch the Mythbusters episode. ("Airplane on a Conveyor Belt") You can WATCH the plane take off for yourself! Your entire concept of how this works is 100% backwards from reality. See my post above: Take the wheels OUT of the equation and put the plant on Floats on a river. Will the plane take off? OF COURSE. Same principles apply with the conveyor concept. EDIT: Added link to episode info from Mythbusters wiki. Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.09.09 18:07:00 - [86] Doesn't anyone else see it?! We're being trolled by /b/tards! _______ ◕◡◕
Bish Ounen Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.09.09 18:12:00 - [87] Originally by: Great Artista Doesn't anyone else see it?! We're being trolled by /b/tards! Hmmm... There is much wisdom in this one... /Yoda Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
CryoHead	Posted - 2008.09.09 18:31:00 - [88] Yeah, the MythBusters have already confirmed it: the plane took off.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 18:38:00 - [89] Originally by: KingsGambit stuff What i thought before, however... this is what would happen if it's not using air to make it go forward, if it was a car on a convayer belt it would stand still, but since the plane is using air to push it forward it really has nothing to do with the ground. ________________________ I'M POOR
Ryysa Paisti Paisti Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 18:50:00 - [90] Err... Plane measures airspeed, not speed at the wheels. Seriously, have you guys even finished school? And if you have, did you do so much drugs that nothing is left of your brain? A 12 year old can solve this. EW Guide - KB Tool - My Music

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