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The "airplane on a conveyor belt" thought experiment... just... ouch.

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Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.09.10 19:35:00 - [151] thank you some one finally understands that wheels dont give a plane fcking lift _
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.09.10 19:37:00 - [152] Originally by: NanDe YaNen Originally by: Straight Chillen I dont see how moving on a conveyor belt provides a sufficient airstream to reduce enough pressure on the topside of the wing to create lift. Depending on your frame of refernce, such as an observer to the side, the plane would be stationary. As its not moving foward, it's not moving through the air, and as such its not getting any lift. So no, your plane would stay grounded. Now if the conveyor belt is moving the air too, thats a different scenario. Bernoulli's Principal Simplified I will from here forth link to this post every time I want to discredit your input on any subject. I'd do the same but you'd have to have a good idea first. _
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.10 20:03:00 - [153] Edited by: P''uck on 10/09/2008 20:04:15 Originally by: Dionisius If the plane has no motion relative to the wind, there will be no lift to force the plane up. You just have to be trolling. How in heavens name would the conveyor belt magically turn the plane into being stationary relative to the air? All it does is spin the wheels, and the plane only needs those so it doesnt scratch the ground seriously, I give up. If you didnt get it by now, you probably never will... edit; the picture you linked is actually a very nice visualization of why and how it takes off
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.09.10 20:04:00 - [154] That means that planes flying against the wind will fly faster, right? _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.10 20:06:00 - [155] Edited by: P''uck on 10/09/2008 20:09:58 Originally by: Pwett That means that planes flying against the wind will fly faster, right? In some way, yes, relative to the wind. Relative to the ground, no. edit; well actually just no, theres a max speed thats set by the engine and the structural integrity. with some wind from the rear they can go a bit faster relative to the ground. Ever seen an RC plane stand still in the air (relative to the ground ofc ), because the wind was blowing in the opposite direction? Pilots of those styrofoam thingies do it all the time. Compared to the air it goes max speed. compared to the ground its zero, sometimes less. (edit; i fear this will only inject more confusion into the conveyor argument )
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.09.10 20:10:00 - [156] hehe, this should clear up the argument This, I will get, for you. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.10 20:12:00 - [157] Originally by: Pwett hehe, this should clear up the argument This, I will get, for you. I wonder if there is a counter T-Shirt. maybe with an "(Unless Jesus wants it to.)" small print ...
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.10 20:14:00 - [158] Originally by: Dionisius Edited by: Dionisius on 10/09/2008 19:48:01 If the plane and ground speed are matched the plane does not move period! Notice the question dummies " An airplane is standing on a (very/sufficiently) long, powerful and fast conveyor belt. The airplane pilot attempts to take off moving forward. The controller of the conveyor belt is making the conveyor belt move in the opposite direction with the same speed. Can the plane take off, yes or no ? " Both speeds are matched! If you have V0 condition you aren't at proper speed to take off look at the freaking picture Akita posted - > PICTURE And for the genius stating that the engines propel the plane, true, now your assumption is on a normal strip, take the example and you don't have enough attrition for that you have to generate more power in order to move the plane forward, which is not the case. Second, the belt itself does not generate enough airflow to cause the sustenance needed to lift the plane, which is for a plane to take off. And p'uk or puke... lol @ you , seriously. Edit: For more clearance The plane gets its lift via the Bernoulli effect. This has to do with wing shape and its interaction with air moving rapidly past. If the plane has no motion relative to the wind, there will be no lift to force the plane up. I think thats the clearer my English can be for the moment :P Hey Kor anon! I changed my mind! I just figured out who gets culled or ww3d! Seriously, is this like some sort of brain disease! PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW TEH COVEYOR COUNTERACTS THE PROPULSION FROM A JET ENGINE OR PROPELLOR!!! "Because it moves backward at the same speed the plane moves foward " Is not a ****ing answer! BECAUSE THE PLANE WHEELS ROLL FREELY THE CONVEYOR HAS NO WAY TO EXERT A FORCE ON THE PLANE TO COUNTERACT THE FORCE OF THE JET PROPULSION! I am done, this thread is making me yell now! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.10 20:22:00 - [159] I felt the urge to type in caps, too
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.09.10 20:50:00 - [160] Originally by: Sharupak Originally by: Dionisius Edited by: Dionisius on 10/09/2008 19:48:01 If the plane and ground speed are matched the plane does not move period! Notice the question dummies " An airplane is standing on a (very/sufficiently) long, powerful and fast conveyor belt. The airplane pilot attempts to take off moving forward. The controller of the conveyor belt is making the conveyor belt move in the opposite direction with the same speed. Can the plane take off, yes or no ? " Both speeds are matched! If you have V0 condition you aren't at proper speed to take off look at the freaking picture Akita posted - > PICTURE And for the genius stating that the engines propel the plane, true, now your assumption is on a normal strip, take the example and you don't have enough attrition for that you have to generate more power in order to move the plane forward, which is not the case. Second, the belt itself does not generate enough airflow to cause the sustenance needed to lift the plane, which is for a plane to take off. And p'uk or puke... lol @ you , seriously. Edit: For more clearance The plane gets its lift via the Bernoulli effect. This has to do with wing shape and its interaction with air moving rapidly past. If the plane has no motion relative to the wind, there will be no lift to force the plane up. I think thats the clearer my English can be for the moment :P Hey Kor anon! I changed my mind! I just figured out who gets culled or ww3d! Seriously, is this like some sort of brain disease! PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW TEH COVEYOR COUNTERACTS THE PROPULSION FROM A JET ENGINE OR PROPELLOR!!! "Because it moves backward at the same speed the plane moves foward " Is not a ****ing answer! BECAUSE THE PLANE WHEELS ROLL FREELY THE CONVEYOR HAS NO WAY TO EXERT A FORCE ON THE PLANE TO COUNTERACT THE FORCE OF THE JET PROPULSION! I am done, this thread is making me yell now! Here - http://science.howstuffworks.com/airplane.htm Go see this link it explains better than i can. _____________________________________
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.09.10 21:09:00 - [161] Edited by: Vabjekf on 10/09/2008 21:11:21 Edited by: Vabjekf on 10/09/2008 21:10:13 Originally by: Dionisius Edited by: Dionisius on 10/09/2008 19:48:01 If the plane and ground speed are matched the plane does not move period! Notice the question dummies Yes, yes it does move. Quote: " An airplane is standing on a (very/sufficiently) long, powerful and fast conveyor belt. The airplane pilot attempts to take off moving forward. The controller of the conveyor belt is making the conveyor belt move in the opposite direction with the same speed. Can the plane take off, yes or no ? " Both speeds are matched! If you have V0 condition you aren't at proper speed to take off look at the freaking picture Akita posted - > PICTURE And if the plane is moving forward at a speed of 10generic measurements per millisecond, the treadmill will be moving backwards at 10generic measurements per millisecond. They will both be moving at 10 generic measurements per millisecond compared to the surrounding scenery (and in opposite directions), but will be moving at 20 generic measurements per millisecond in relation to each other. Because the plane does not care that it is on a treadmill one bit. Only its wheel bearings will get hotter. It will take off like it was on a normal runway.
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.09.10 21:17:00 - [162] Originally by: Vabjekf Edited by: Vabjekf on 10/09/2008 21:11:21 Edited by: Vabjekf on 10/09/2008 21:10:13 Originally by: Dionisius Edited by: Dionisius on 10/09/2008 19:48:01 If the plane and ground speed are matched the plane does not move period! Notice the question dummies Yes, yes it does move. Quote: " An airplane is standing on a (very/sufficiently) long, powerful and fast conveyor belt. The airplane pilot attempts to take off moving forward. The controller of the conveyor belt is making the conveyor belt move in the opposite direction with the same speed. Can the plane take off, yes or no ? " Both speeds are matched! If you have V0 condition you aren't at proper speed to take off look at the freaking picture Akita posted - > PICTURE And if the plane is moving forward at a speed of 10generic measurements per millisecond, the treadmill will be moving backwards at 10generic measurements per millisecond. They will both be moving at 10 generic measurements per millisecond compared to the surrounding scenery (and in opposite directions), but will be moving at 20 generic measurements per millisecond in relation to each other. Because the plane does not care that it is on a treadmill one bit. Only its wheel bearings will get hotter. It will take off like it was on a normal runway. If the belts speed and plane are the same in oposite directions how can the plane be moving ffs? You don't have AIR DISPLACEMENT neither under nor above the wings to generate lift force. Airplanes don't take off simply based on jet trust, thats assuming you are talking about an ordinary jetplane. And you aren't taking tha plane's weight into account also. _____________________________________
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.10 21:19:00 - [163] Edited by: P''uck on 10/09/2008 21:26:20 Originally by: Dionisius If the belts speed and plane are the same in oposite directions how can the plane be moving ffs? Meditate upon the fact that planes aren't Honda Civics, then return. edit; maybe this helps: Some folks seem to assume that the conveyor's movement is in fact the force pulling back on the plane. THAT IS ****ING WRONG. The friction in the ball bearings and the momentum of the tires, that's pretty much ALL the force there is, which you dont have in a "normal" takeoff. well, actually just half of it, the other half is there in a normal takeoff too. But I dont know why we're still arguing about it. You just cannot be serious. Guess I'm just THAT bored.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.09.10 21:24:00 - [164] A plane's wheels only purpose is to keep the plane from grinding over the ground. It will accelerate and lift off if you'd just hover it over the ground. The conveyor belt will simply cause the wheels to start rotating at great speeds but it will not affect the velocity of the plane after a certain level of thrust. The wheels do not accelerate the plane! -------- Ideas for: Mining
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.10 21:26:00 - [165] I seriously hope the person that thought this up and decided to express it to someone else dies in a fiery conveyor belt accident! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.09.10 21:27:00 - [166] Edited by: Vabjekf on 10/09/2008 21:28:47 Originally by: Dionisius ... Because the plane is pushing against the air, not pushing against the ground. If it helps pretend the plane is some sort of hovercraft/plane hybrid. Floating on a cushion of air. The ground moving under it does not matter, because it only moves if it pushes against something, or something pushes against it. A wheel on an aircraft is like that cushion of air. They are both simply devices trying to negate friction. The fact that it is a wheel does not matter, its not used to drive the airplane, only to make it 'slippery' in relation to the ground. Yes because there is no frictionless surface the ground moving backwards would cause the aircraft to slow down a tiny tiny bit, but it could not hold it in place.
Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2008.09.10 22:18:00 - [167] The answer depends on the observer: For an observer moving with the conveyor the airplane gets distance and departs like on a runway. Therefore it will lift up. For an observer not on the conveyor the airplane won't move and therefore won't lift up. This is well known as the take-off-paradoxon.
Archonus Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.09.10 23:30:00 - [168] probably already posted here somewhere but.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ul_5DtMLhc [url=http://www.simshaun.com/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39011][/url]
P'uck	Posted - 2008.09.10 23:57:00 - [169] OMG pilot guy in that vid My faith in mankind, its DESECRATED
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.11 00:14:00 - [170] Originally by: P'uck OMG pilot guy in that vid My faith in mankind, its DESECRATED My thoughts exactly! Apparently you dont have to understand the principles of flight to get your pilots license! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.11 01:47:00 - [171] Originally by: Archonus probably already posted here somewhere but.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ul_5DtMLhc Thanks for the vid, hillarious. Hadn't seen it before. Added it to OP. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.09.11 02:10:00 - [172] I only read the first couple of pages here, but for anyone who still doesn't get it, try this... Put a toy car on a treadmill. Set the treadmill to go amazingly fast (like 12 mph or whatever its max is). Now reach in and push the car backwards on the treadmill. Wasn't hard, was it? It's because you (the drive mechanism) are not attached to the treadmill, all you have to do is overcome the bearing friction on the wheels and it's easy. And of course, the wheels are spinning at whatever speed the treadmill is moving at plus the speed you're pushing backwards at. It's the same principle for a plane. The drive mechanism (the engine) is not attached in any way, shape, or form to the ground, except for the free-spinning wheels. If you put it on a treadmill it'll take off like it's not even there, the wheels will merely spin a bit faster. Now, if you put a giant world-domination class fan behind the plane and turn it on, THAT will keep it from taking off (or even moving at all) as it does act like some people think the treadmill does, by countering its propulsion to keep it stationary. And yes, the Mythbusters did this a while ago. It was busted ---
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.09.11 10:29:00 - [173] Originally by: Archonus probably already posted here somewhere but.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ul_5DtMLhc That thing wich they called an experience was so badly performed and so far away from the original question that its even an embaracement to science. Anyways the answer remains NO for obvious reasons. _____________________________________
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.09.11 10:46:00 - [174] Ok, time for an actual pilot and aerospace engineering student to come in and give the correct answer. The most obvious trap here is the assumption the question expects you to make, that a plane's wheels work like car wheels. They don't. Except for a tiny amount of friction between the wheel and axle, a plane's wheels spin freely. The belt simply can not apply force to the airplane, no matter how fast it is moving. The only way the belt can prevent the airplane from taking off is for one of the following to be true: 1) The airplane is barely able to take off (whether due to lack of runway distance, too much load, etc) normally, and the tiny amount of force applied through friction in the wheels is enough to keep it from reaching takeoff speed. The plane runs off the end of the runway and crashes. 2) The airplane's wheels are unable to survive the extra stress of moving twice as fast and fail. The result is much higher friction between the destroyed landing gear and the moving belt, and the belt is able to apply force to the airplane and stop it from moving. While #2 is definitely a risk and depends on the airplane, it's probably not enough. The Cessna 172 I fly can, with a soft-field takeoff, get the wheels off the ground at around 30-40 knots. And as demonstrated by me (and every other student pilot in the history of flying), the airplane is quite capable of surviving a landing at 60 kts. A brief time with the wheels rotating at the equivalent of 80 kts is unlikely to break anything, so the plane flies away just fine. If you still disagree, go get a toy car and a treadmill. Turn the treadmill on as fast as you like, but the car on the belt, and push it forward. Notice that you can move it forward as fast as you like, no matter how fast the belt is moving. Come back here and post your concession that I am right. Anyone who still thinks the plane fails to take off is either a ****ing idiot or a troll. I leave it to you to decide which.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.11 10:50:00 - [175] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 11/09/2008 10:54:20 I couldn't be arsed reading this thread, what with having read it multiple times on multiple forums before. I just thought I'd point out, in case it hasn't been pointed out already, that the confusion does not arise from the difficulty of the question. (except in the case of complete idiots) There are multiple phrasings of this thought experiment, some which suggest that the conveyor belt is given enough power to negate all forward thrust of the aircraft (thus making the question "Will a stationary aircraft take off on engine thrust alone?" - No), others which suggest it merely matches the speed of the aircraft (thus making the question "Will an aircraft accelerate on a conveyor where a ground vehicle would not?" - Yes). The argument arises when people who interpreted it one way encounter people who interpret it the other way. These are two different questions, with two different answers, so they can never agree. - DesuSigs
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.09.11 11:18:00 - [176] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Ok, time for an actual pilot and aerospace engineering student to come in and give the correct answer. The most obvious trap here is the assumption the question expects you to make, that a plane's wheels work like car wheels. They don't. Except for a tiny amount of friction between the wheel and axle, a plane's wheels spin freely. The belt simply can not apply force to the airplane, no matter how fast it is moving. The only way the belt can prevent the airplane from taking off is for one of the following to be true: 1) The airplane is barely able to take off (whether due to lack of runway distance, too much load, etc) normally, and the tiny amount of force applied through friction in the wheels is enough to keep it from reaching takeoff speed. The plane runs off the end of the runway and crashes. 2) The airplane's wheels are unable to survive the extra stress of moving twice as fast and fail. The result is much higher friction between the destroyed landing gear and the moving belt, and the belt is able to apply force to the airplane and stop it from moving. While #2 is definitely a risk and depends on the airplane, it's probably not enough. The Cessna 172 I fly can, with a soft-field takeoff, get the wheels off the ground at around 30-40 knots. And as demonstrated by me (and every other student pilot in the history of flying), the airplane is quite capable of surviving a landing at 60 kts. A brief time with the wheels rotating at the equivalent of 80 kts is unlikely to break anything, so the plane flies away just fine. If you still disagree, go get a toy car and a treadmill. Turn the treadmill on as fast as you like, but the car on the belt, and push it forward. Notice that you can move it forward as fast as you like, no matter how fast the belt is moving. Come back here and post your concession that I am right. Anyone who still thinks the plane fails to take off is either a ****ing idiot or a troll. I leave it to you to decide which. For a aerospace student you are missing quite a bit on interpretation, look at the question and think your studies trough, you have more that one answer to the question depending on what craft you are considering. And stop using the car example, cars do not work has planes. _____________________________________
Liver Damage	Posted - 2008.09.11 13:35:00 - [177] Edited by: Liver Damage on 11/09/2008 13:35:47 Originally by: Dionisius Anyways the answer remains NO for obvious reasons. It really doesn't. How, exactly, is the belt preventing the plane from moving forwards through the air?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.11 14:02:00 - [178] Originally by: Dionisius And stop using the car example, cars do not work has planes. That car does, as the 'thrust' is being applied to the body.
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.09.11 14:20:00 - [179] Edited by: Dionisius on 11/09/2008 14:25:01 Edited by: Dionisius on 11/09/2008 14:24:31 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Dionisius And stop using the car example, cars do not work has planes. That car does, as the 'thrust' is being applied to the body. You realize that the source of movement of the car is the wheels and that the source of movement for the plane is the reactor or propeller and air displacement under and above the wings right? And weight / speed ( airspeed ) have a crucial importance in a place takeoff, no one is considering this. Other than that you have the old small planes with propellers and the more modern airliners of private jets that use reactors, all with differing in aerodinamical properties, while the small propeller plane can takeoff due to the fact that it has, - lightweight - Propeller is in front of the wings() () therefore generating enough airflow through the wings that creates the desired pressures for them to lift the plane. A private jet or a regular airliner wouldn't take off, they don't meet these conditions, if the conveyor always matches the planes speed it will never achieve the enough air mass displacement to lift. For a better example, take the carrier catapult into consideration, why do the pilots have to be in full throttle and lower fuel than usual? Weight and airspeed issues, they have to take off in a rather small space and achieve enough airspeed with minimal possible weight in order to the plane to keep going, this wouldn't happen in the said conveyor in a regular craft with both speeds ( conveyor and plane ) matched. _____________________________________
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.11 14:37:00 - [180] Originally by: Dionisius Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Dionisius And stop using the car example, cars do not work has planes. That car does, as the 'thrust' is being applied to the body. You realize that the source of movement of the car is the wheels and that the source of movement for the plane is the reactor or propeller and air displacement under and above the wings right? And weight / speed ( airspeed ) have a crucial importance in a place takeoff, no one is considering this. Other than that you have the old small planes with propellers and the more modern airliners of private jets that use reactors, all with differing in aerodinamical properties, while the small propeller plane can takeoff due to the fact that it has, - lightweight - Propeller is in front of the wings() therefore generating enough airflow through the wings that creates the desired pressures for them to lift the plane. Taking off in an aircraft isn't solely a speed experience. Ok, I think I understand this now as I discussed this with my wife, and she kept repeating the same crazy ***ing answers but I think I understand why now... You do realize that the object of the experiment is normal take off! Not trying to take off in a stopped state! The conveyor is the size of the runway and the object is for the plane to move foward generating enough ground speed so that the wings will generate lift. My wife was saying no because she interpenetrated the question to mean that the question was telling her to imagine that the conveyor belt "DID" prevent the plane from moving forward for the purposes of the imaginary scenario. Like she understood that IRL the plane would move forward on the conveyor, but she thought from interpreting the question that you were supposed to imagine that the conveyor was preventing the plane from moving. Now, with that out of the way. The difference with the car is that the point of force for both the conveyor and car are the DRIVE WHEEL! On a normal road, the car generates movement because of the high amount of friction between the rubber of the tire and the pavment surface. Neither surface is going to give so the wheel has to roll pushing the car foward. But on the conveyor, the road surface gives way alleviating the torque force of the drive wheel. In a plane, the wheels are free spinning. This changes the scenario because the conveyor must apply equal force to the thrust of the jet engine that would be propelling the plane foward (yes from the perspective of some dude sitting in a budwieser chair on solid ground going "tarnation, WTF are they doing at the airport these days) to eventually get enough speed so that the wings and generate lift for takeoff. It cannot do this because the rolling of the airplane wheels alleviates the torque force of the conveyor by rolling. _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.

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