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ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.09 19:38:00 -
[1]
I've been teaching myself C++ and only have about 2 weeks of learning under my belt. I'm comfortable with strings, arrays, pointers (more or less), functions, what the various data types are, how to use relational operators, etc. Just starting to play around with classes and structs. But I'm very much aware that I have a hell of a lot to learn. Since I'm not taking a class, how do I tell when I am "competent" at C++?
__________________________
 Quote:
...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
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ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.09 19:38:00 -
[2]
I've been teaching myself C++ and only have about 2 weeks of learning under my belt. I'm comfortable with strings, arrays, pointers (more or less), functions, what the various data types are, how to use relational operators, etc. Just starting to play around with classes and structs. But I'm very much aware that I have a hell of a lot to learn. Since I'm not taking a class, how do I tell when I am "competent" at C++?
__________________________
Quote:
...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
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CryoHead
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Posted - 2008.09.09 19:51:00 -
[3]
When you'll look like this or this.
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CryoHead
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Posted - 2008.09.09 19:51:00 -
[4]
When you'll look like this or this.
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Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2008.09.09 21:36:00 -
[5]
when you've finished some projects and your stuff works without shit suddenly exploding.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.09.09 21:48:00 -
[6]
when you start wishing you had picked another language
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ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.09 22:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Keta Min
when you've finished some projects and your stuff works without shit suddenly exploding.
The most complicated thing I've managed so far is a prime number generator. 
__________________________
Quote:
...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.09 23:40:00 -
[8]
I did what you did, taught myself C++ out of a book it was painful as all hell learning it. I know C really well (work with it almost daily). I wanted to write a quick gui front end for some stuff I'd written (needed to connect to an oracle DB extract data, then tidy it up and display it to the user once my C program had finished with it). I thought no problem C++ will be a breeze.
I bought a few books and dived right into it *ugh* its a messy messy language to work with, don't get me wrong I love my C but C++ has just had so many things crammed into it over the years I get the feeling it's about to collapse under it's own bloated weight at any minute. I got my project done but it wasn't pretty, haven't really touched C++ since then. A guy at work introduced me to Perl I love it, absolutely perfect language when you need to throw something together quickly that just works, haven't looked back since then.
As for your question I'd recommend wrapping your head around classes and templates when you can make sense of those two things you should be well on your way to being competent with the language.
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Sharupak
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.09.10 00:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CryoHead
When you'll look like this or this.
Nah, thats what they look like when they are still in high school. This is what they look like when they get employed as a programmer... Linkage
_______________________________________________
RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.09.10 00:20:00 -
[10]
Programming is a means to an end. Choose an end that requires programming. When you do that, if it was too easy or short of your goals, pick something a little harder.
Whatever you do, I recommend setting your intermediate goals at very short intervals that don't require a lot of work to achieve. I've tried learning to program in one fell swoop. I eventually learned how while working on small hello-world type stuff in OGRE. Adding little bite-sized pieces of functionality without paying attention to overall design.
You're usually not smart enough at overall design to be able to efficiently worry about it for a long time. It's like a virgin talking about relationships, or an Eve player talking about getting laid
---------------------------------------
Originally by: Red Raider
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
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Sharupak
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.09.10 00:34:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Keta Min
when you've finished some projects and your stuff works without shit suddenly exploding.
The most complicated thing I've managed so far is a prime number generator.
LOL! I just did the regular number counter one time and I was curious to see how long the computer would take to count to a million.
It takes a long ****ing time LOL!
_______________________________________________
RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.10 09:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sharupak
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Keta Min
when you've finished some projects and your stuff works without shit suddenly exploding.
The most complicated thing I've managed so far is a prime number generator.
LOL! I just did the regular number counter one time and I was curious to see how long the computer would take to count to a million.
It takes a long ****ing time LOL!
That's odd. It takes my program 3 and a half minutes to find all the primes between 1 and 100 million. Regular numbers (if I remember correctly are factors of a power of 60) should be much easier to find. They'll just be of the form 2^i * 3^j * 5^k. Just count up each of the i's j's and k's.
Okie dokie, I'll have a crack at this.
__________________________
Quote:
...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
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ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.10 10:25:00 -
[13]
Almost done, I'm just stuck on trying to create a quicksort algorithm for my array of regular numbers. It keeps accusing me of trying to convert doubles into chars, which is blatently untrue. The word "char" doesn't even APPEAR in the code. 
__________________________
Quote:
...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
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Victor Valka
Caldari
Kissaki Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.10 10:29:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Sharupak
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Keta Min
when you've finished some projects and your stuff works without shit suddenly exploding.
The most complicated thing I've managed so far is a prime number generator.
LOL! I just did the regular number counter one time and I was curious to see how long the computer would take to count to a million.
It takes a long ****ing time LOL!
That's odd. It takes my program 3 and a half minutes to find all the primes between 1 and 100 million. Regular numbers (if I remember correctly are factors of a power of 60) should be much easier to find. They'll just be of the form 2^i * 3^j * 5^k. Just count up each of the i's j's and k's.
Okie dokie, I'll have a crack at this.
No. He meant something like this:
###
i = 0
x = 1000000 #one million
while i <= x - 1:
i += 1
print i
### Take Py ~2sec. Unless you're a complete beginner and do something in the tune of:###
i = 0
x = 1000000 #one million
while i <= x - 1:
i += 1
print i
print i
###
This takes so much more time.... 
Originally by: Spaztick
You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
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ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.10 10:51:00 -
[15]
I don't see the difference except the second one outputs twice.
__________________________
Quote:
...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
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Sharupak
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.09.10 11:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Sharupak
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Keta Min
when you've finished some projects and your stuff works without shit suddenly exploding.
The most complicated thing I've managed so far is a prime number generator.
LOL! I just did the regular number counter one time and I was curious to see how long the computer would take to count to a million.
It takes a long ****ing time LOL!
That's odd. It takes my program 3 and a half minutes to find all the primes between 1 and 100 million. Regular numbers (if I remember correctly are factors of a power of 60) should be much easier to find. They'll just be of the form 2^i * 3^j * 5^k. Just count up each of the i's j's and k's.
Okie dokie, I'll have a crack at this.
No. He meant something like this:
###
i = 0
x = 1000000 #one million
while i <= x - 1:
i += 1
print i
### Take Py ~2sec. Unless you're a complete beginner and do something in the tune of:###
i = 0
x = 1000000 #one million
while i <= x - 1:
i += 1
print i
print i
###
This takes so much more time....
Yup, option 2
_______________________________________________
RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.09.10 11:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I don't see the difference except the second one outputs twice.
The first one counts to a million, then outputs the text "1000000". The second counts to a million and outputs the current number as text each cycle, then finally outputs "1000000" again. Printing text just requires a lot of processing overhead, that's all.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.09.10 11:20:00 -
[18]
C++ was fun in the 90's, but nowdays it's a huge waste of time to learn unless you really want to use it for its remaining 4-5 years in specific areas where there isn't a good replacement for it yet.
In order to be considered competent at C++ nowdays, you will need to be proficient at OOP, using Templates/STL and at least know something about thread safety. IMHO.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 11:36:00 -
[19]
Well I've been applying for jobs, and a fair few of them ask you to know C++ or be willing to self-learn it. So it's hardly pointless.
__________________________
Quote:
...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Federation Zone Operations Command
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Posted - 2008.09.10 11:51:00 -
[20]
Learning C++ is extremely usefull as you will have to learn how memory and pointers work.
After you've finally mastered it and understand how to program efficiently you can move to Java which will handle all that for you.
You will code shit in Java as well if you haven't learned to code in C++ first.
Ah, those golden days of hunting those 4 bits that didn't get deallocated in a 100.000 line program...*sighs*.
--------------------------------------------------
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles - Sun Tzu |
Victor Valka
Caldari
Kissaki Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 14:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I don't see the difference except the second one outputs twice.
The first one counts to a million, then outputs the text "1000000". The second counts to a million and outputs the current number as text each cycle, then finally outputs "1000000" again. Printing text just requires a lot of processing overhead, that's all.
It is not so much the processing overhead as it is the output lag. The program can only continue processing once the OS has returned control to it after the device driver has returned to OS. Uh. At least I think that's the correct way to explain it.
Anyone care to correct me? 
Originally by: Spaztick
You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
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ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 14:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I don't see the difference except the second one outputs twice.
The first one counts to a million, then outputs the text "1000000". The second counts to a million and outputs the current number as text each cycle, then finally outputs "1000000" again. Printing text just requires a lot of processing overhead, that's all.
It is not so much the processing overhead as it is the output lag. The program can only continue processing once the OS has returned control to it after the device driver has returned to OS. Uh. At least I think that's the correct way to explain it.
Anyone care to correct me?
My understanding was that quite a bit of the lag was created by converting between binary and decimal integers. The variable is stored in the computer as binary, it then needs to perform a calculation to convert it to decimal and display the result.
__________________________
Quote:
...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
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Ami Nia
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 14:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
My understanding was that quite a bit of the lag was created by converting between binary and decimal integers. The variable is stored in the computer as binary, it then needs to perform a calculation to convert it to decimal and display the result.
In C/C++, depending on your output medium, chances are that you spend much more time actually outputting it than you spend converting.
But it all depends.
It is very easy to check, however: convert it to a string in a static buffer without printing. Time the difference between this and actually printing it.
---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
So we can 1 v 1 with Garmon.
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LordSwift
INTERSTELLAR ENTERPRISE
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Posted - 2008.09.10 14:46:00 -
[24]
My brain hurts reading your nerd speak. I have personally tried to teach myself C++, maybe i dont have the drive to sit down and teach myself. Maybe i should go back to college. (Yeah i know im dumb) Hehe!!
Wish i could go back. Well done on getting further than me. All i managed to write is a small program that asks you to enter your name and then says "Hello Lordswift" Back to me.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.09.10 15:07:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Nyphur on 10/09/2008 15:08:49
Originally by: Victor Valka
It is not so much the processing overhead as it is the output lag. The program can only continue processing once the OS has returned control to it after the device driver has returned to OS. Uh. At least I think that's the correct way to explain it.
Anyone care to correct me?
Yeah that's correct as far as I know. I couldn't think of a better term than processing overhead at the time.
Originally by: Pan Crastus
C++ was fun in the 90's, but nowdays it's a huge waste of time to learn unless you really want to use it for its remaining 4-5 years in specific areas where there isn't a good replacement for it yet.
The majority of companies putting out 3D games still use C/C++ for efficiency reasons.
I prefer languages that handle crap like garbage collection and thread safety themselves, I've never had the misfortune of having to hunt down a dozen little memory leaks in a program and I don't intend to get into that position. I've been using C# with the XNA framework lately and it's fairly good. There's a decent active development community and both C# and XNA have excellent documentation. C# is more like Java than it is like C, I actually find it a lot easier to deal with than C but that's probably because I've used Java a lot.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 15:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Learning C++ is extremely usefull as you will have to learn how memory and pointers work.
That's ANSI C you're thinking of ...
Quote:
After you've finally mastered it and understand how to program efficiently you can move to Java which will handle all that for you.
You will code shit in Java as well if you haven't learned to code in C++ first.
Many people, including me, think that having "OK" knowledge of C/C++ is actually harmful if you want to be a good Java programmer.
Quote:
Ah, those golden days of hunting those 4 bits that didn't get deallocated in a 100.000 line program...*sighs*.
man alloca(3) ...
Also, Java has garbage collection. ;-P
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Sothis Antares
PBA Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.11 19:00:00 -
[27]
poasting in a nerd wannabe thread.
also, c++ > java
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.11 22:01:00 -
[28]
I got a C++ compiler for christmas when I was 13, my first PC language. I never learned a huge amount of the language, but it got me into good programming habits early on.
I would say you're competent at it when you've been using it for a few years and can spot obscure problems with other people's code on sight.
-
DesuSigs |
Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.09.12 03:08:00 -
[29]
As was said above, when you finish some projects and they work and someone else can look at your code and make sense of it.
As a side bonus, once you've learned C++ you can learn anything - the principles are the same, the syntax is usually similar. After I did some stuff in C++ I did some projects in perl, php, javascript, and even Ruby.
Don't really use my programming skills much anymore though - wasn't making me any money.
---
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Rialtor
Amarr
Yarrrateers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:22:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Rialtor on 12/09/2008 17:23:14
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I've been teaching myself C++ and only have about 2 weeks of learning under my belt. I'm comfortable with strings, arrays, pointers (more or less), functions, what the various data types are, how to use relational operators, etc. Just starting to play around with classes and structs. But I'm very much aware that I have a hell of a lot to learn. Since I'm not taking a class, how do I tell when I am "competent" at C++?
You're competent at C++ at about the time you realize that the answer to the question doesn't really matter. Knowledge of the syntax of C++ doesn't really matter. It's nothing 5 minutes on google wouldn't accomplish for a particular function or library.
A programming language is just a some syntactic and semantic rules.
What is important is being a good programmer. Change you mindset to think that C++ is just a tool you're using to understand programming concepts. Once you understand the underlying concepts that's when you realize that language isn't really the important part.
But C++ is a good choice to start learning these concepts in since it's a more "raw" programming language.
If you're really serious about continuing your studies. Just understand what functions are, and some basic output commands. Then move to creating Objects, learn what the different types of constructors are, overloading, etc. Knowing what objects are and how they work is the foundation to Object Oriented Programming. After that I suggest getting a book on Programming Languages so you start to abstract your view of programming. Then start to learn some more advanced algorithms and data structures.
Also, you might want to look at applications of C++ itself, and why it is still used today to know where to focus your studies.
After you learn about OOP and Advanced Data Structures like Mutexes. You can start to have a mindset to work on multithreaded applications. So about the time you get the hang of OOP and multithreading, I'd say you're now competent at C++. Also to have it working in a real-life application, not just code snippets from somewhere. A text editor is a good example of something you can make that's simple, and uses both of those concepts.
---- sig ----
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:35:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/09/2008 17:35:59
When you can put together a program with classes in such a way that you dont have to restructure the classes every time you want to add significant features, you have become good.
Its much, much more difficult than it sounds, trust me. Learning the syntax is just the basics. Its where you go from there that matters.
So once you are done with the C++ syntax, start reading books about how to build object oriented programs.
---
Originally by: Roguehalo
Can you nano Titans?
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Ami Nia
|
Posted - 2008.10.18 10:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Many people, including me, think that having "OK" knowledge of C/C++ is actually harmful if you want to be a good Java programmer.
This is the typical language war sentence. The standard reply being "Many people, including me, think that having any knowledge of Java is actually harmfull if you want to be a good programmer."
---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
So we can 1 v 1 with Garmon.
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Ryysa
Paisti
|
Posted - 2008.10.18 10:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Nyphur
The majority of companies putting out 3D games still use C/C++ for efficiency reasons.
Not for long, google "Jake2" :)
It's faster than the original, which was written in C++.
EW Guide - Music Downloader - My Music |
Ryysa
Paisti
|
Posted - 2008.10.18 10:30:00 -
[34]
As someone with SCJP certification, I can only second what Rialtor said.
Once you learn to code, the language doesn't really matter, it's only a matter of ramming the syntax into your head - whether you use Java, C, Perl or a Turing machine ;)
EW Guide - Music Downloader - My Music |
Taedrin
Gallente
Celestial Ascension
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.18 10:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I've been teaching myself C++ and only have about 2 weeks of learning under my belt. I'm comfortable with strings, arrays, pointers (more or less), functions, what the various data types are, how to use relational operators, etc. Just starting to play around with classes and structs. But I'm very much aware that I have a hell of a lot to learn. Since I'm not taking a class, how do I tell when I am "competent" at C++?
I'm am going to laugh at you when you first encounter the "Dreaded Diamond Diagram of Death". Either that or cry.
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Taedrin
Gallente
Celestial Ascension
Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2008.10.18 10:36:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Nyphur
The majority of companies putting out 3D games still use C/C++ for efficiency reasons.
Not for long, google "Jake2" :)
It's faster than the original, which was written in C++.
I know! Let's play the Programming Language Benchmark Comparison Game!
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Ryysa
Paisti
|
Posted - 2008.10.18 10:41:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Ryysa on 18/10/2008 10:43:24
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Nyphur
The majority of companies putting out 3D games still use C/C++ for efficiency reasons.
Not for long, google "Jake2" :)
It's faster than the original, which was written in C++.
I know! Let's play the Programming Language Benchmark Comparison Game!
Microbenchmarks are useless.
Also, I don't see jRockit neither IBM JVM there, which are way faster than sun's implementation.
My point was, that you can easily code a FPS in java these days, and companies are beginning to do so.
Java vs C++ debate is pointless. The better language is the one you are more skilled at. However, the global trend has been very negative for C/C++ usage and positive for Java/C# over the last five years.
EW Guide - Music Downloader - My Music |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
|
Posted - 2008.10.18 11:05:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Ryysa
Edited by: Ryysa on 18/10/2008 10:43:24
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Nyphur
The majority of companies putting out 3D games still use C/C++ for efficiency reasons.
Not for long, google "Jake2" :)
It's faster than the original, which was written in C++.
I know! Let's play the Programming Language Benchmark Comparison Game!
Microbenchmarks are useless.
Also, I don't see jRockit neither IBM JVM there, which are way faster than sun's implementation.
My point was, that you can easily code a FPS in java these days, and companies are beginning to do so.
Java vs C++ debate is pointless. The better language is the one you are more skilled at. However, the global trend has been very negative for C/C++ usage and positive for Java/C# over the last five years.
I find Scala rather more interesting than Java these days (from a programming perspective) and it's fully interoperable with Java.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Ashundi silver
Vault of Prophecies
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.10.18 12:01:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Ashundi silver on 18/10/2008 12:01:26
Edited by: Ashundi silver on 18/10/2008 12:00:57
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I've been teaching myself C++ and only have about 2 weeks of learning under my belt. I'm comfortable with strings, arrays, pointers (more or less), functions, what the various data types are, how to use relational operators, etc. Just starting to play around with classes and structs. But I'm very much aware that I have a hell of a lot to learn. Since I'm not taking a class, how do I tell when I am "competent" at C++?
www.cplusplus.com
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Ami Nia
|
Posted - 2008.10.18 21:41:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ryysa
Java vs C++ debate is pointless. The better language is the one you are more skilled at. However, the global trend has been very negative for C/C++ usage and positive for Java/C# over the last five years.
I disagree.
Java vs C++ is pointless because they are totally different languages. It's like comparing apples and oranges.
But the better language is not always the one you are more skilled at: it very much depends on what application you are developing (ironically EvE has been developed on a language that is not the best for an MMO, and we pay it with lag).
The global trend is NOT going from C++ to Java/C#. It is going from local applications to web services and browser based applications. This implies more use of Java and less use of C++.
Take the internet and browser based applications out of the equation and Java use us close to nil. Only consider them and C++ use is close to nil.
If you develop embedded systems, real time systems, 2D/3D CAD/CAM/CAE applications, operating systems, avionics etc. etc. then C/C++ is what you want, not Java and not even C#.
---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
So we can 1 v 1 with Garmon.
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Irma Phelbs
|
Posted - 2008.10.19 13:29:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Irma Phelbs on 19/10/2008 13:30:35
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Since I'm not taking a class, how do I tell when I am "competent" at C++?
The day you understand that book :
Modern C++ Design: Generic Programming and Design Patterns Applied
Edit : linkify, forgot how craptastic those forums were...
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TimMc
Gallente
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2008.10.19 13:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sothis Antares
poasting in a nerd wannabe thread.
also, c++ > java
Of course it is, anyone can learn Java. Its a starter language. I am learning Java in my uni course atm, then it'll be Python and C++.
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Roxanna Kell
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.10.19 13:52:00 -
[43]
Its easier to learn chinese.
Quote:
There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
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donzie
Caldari
Stormlord Battleforce
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.10.19 14:15:00 -
[44]
Originally by: TimMc
Originally by: Sothis Antares
poasting in a nerd wannabe thread.
also, c++ > java
Of course it is, anyone can learn Java. Its a starter language. I am learning Java in my uni course atm, then it'll be Python and C++.
You will see that a lot of people that start selflearning a program language, will start with C++.
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Originally by: CCP Atropos
I was like, "no wai dude" and they were like "uhuh" so I said "NO WAI" and they said "uhuh" |
Ryysa
Paisti
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Posted - 2008.10.19 14:26:00 -
[45]
Originally by: TimMc
Of course it is, anyone can learn Java. Its a starter language. I am learning Java in my uni course atm, then it'll be Python and C++.
Yeah, and you probably can do ****all with the language.
If you ever pass the SCJP exam, then ring back. The really big difference between C++ and Java is that you must handle memory allocation yourself. However, it's not like it's hard to code in a memory leak in Java.
Either way - simple stuff is simple in any language - be it C, C++ or Java. You are going for strong words, but you don't even have the grasp of either of these languages.
Not to mention, in Java development it is not about the knowledge of the language itself as much, it's about knowing the various libraries and frameworks - spring framework, hibernate etc.
EW Guide - Music Downloader - My Music |
Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.10.19 16:07:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Irma Phelbs
Edited by: Irma Phelbs on 19/10/2008 13:30:35
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Since I'm not taking a class, how do I tell when I am "competent" at C++?
The day you understand that book :
Modern C++ Design: Generic Programming and Design Patterns Applied
Edit : linkify, forgot how craptastic those forums were...
Alexandrescu's book is what i pointed several C++ compiler developers to when I was arguing with them why full support of template specifications (including support for template definitions in a separate translation unit) is important.
There are several little errors in that book. But is still a nice primer for template programming.
The new, upcoming, C++ standard will make it somewhat "old", however.
Too bad there's very few people that will ever use the new language specification.
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Originally by: CCP Mitnal
So we can 1 v 1 with Garmon.
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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.10.19 16:25:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Amni Nia
If you develop embedded systems, real time systems, 2D/3D CAD/CAM/CAE applications, operating systems, avionics etc. etc. then C/C++ is what you want, not Java and not even C#.
That's wrong also, look at RTSJ, it can easily handle realtime - there is also lots of java hardware nowadays.
Your information is about 5 years old.
For operating systems and avionics C and ADA are the only languages that are currently used. Java is not even worth mentioning. Not even C++ can handle those reliably (I was almost derided when I considered C++ as an option for a small subsystem of an on board weapon control, but my analysis actually proved ADA would make for a better choice so they pretended I didn't).
For real time systems ... there are several definitions of that. If you must DEMONSTRATE in advance the exact timing of each and every stimuli response (this is my definition) I doubt Java can crank it. For "just in time" systems where you only need to guarantee an upper bound to each response, than it may do. But then many other languages also would.
As for "Java hardware", I can just say that every single modern microprocessor is "C hardware", that we have had "Lisp hardware" so far back as 40+ years ago and that in the early 80s Intel was playing around with concepts that would make a hardware with direct support for languages like smalltalk and that today would make for nice C++, Java, Python, RUBY, C# hardware machines. But they abandoned it.
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Originally by: CCP Mitnal
So we can 1 v 1 with Garmon.
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jason hill
Caldari
Clan Shadow Wolf
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:32:00 -
[48]
 I think I have just had my head fried.... again
destroy everything you touch |
Ryysa
Paisti
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Posted - 2008.10.21 15:00:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ami Nia
stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH1yUXd9krU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXct7Bzdhzw
Get your facts straight...
EW Guide - Music Downloader - My Music |
ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Zetsubou Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.21 16:07:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ryysa
Get your facts straight...
But wonky facts are more interesting.
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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:30:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Ami Nia
stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH1yUXd9krU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXct7Bzdhzw
Get your facts straight...
The single axis inverted pendulum could probably be written in a couple dozen languages. Even a segway has more complex code than what is demoed there.
The robot real time requirements are totally unclear from the video. What they have shown are just two predefined sequences that can probably be programmed in basic and barely require any computation at all. Granted they SAY they are doing it interactively, so there must be more than what is shown.
In any case those are two demos of soft real time systems written in Java. The demos were from the company that invented Java. They are probably the only two softwares of the kind (ok, no, there are other too. Maybe a few dozens. So what?)
How's that proving anything?.
One thing they present as a plus is that they are running on a standard platform with Solaris. That alone is a reason NOT to consider it a viable solution in critical environments. Solaris is not a hard-real-time operating system. Plus you do not want a "standard platform" In those cases where you do not have the space, the power, the thermal conditions etc. to fit it. If it cannot run on a custom designed processor, it is not a viable solution.
Besides, is SUN finally giving out the source code of all that?
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Originally by: CCP Mitnal
So we can 1 v 1 with Garmon.
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Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:29:00 -
[52]
You've only really made it in programming when you can program in Malebolge, Intercal and Unlambda.
Quote from Intercal:
"NTERCAL has many other features designed to make it even more aesthetically unpleasing to the programmer: it uses statements such as "READ OUT", "IGNORE", "FORGET", and modifiers such as "PLEASE". This last keyword provides two reasons for the program's rejection by the compiler: if "PLEASE" does not appear often enough, the program is considered insufficiently polite, and the error message says this; if too often, the program could be rejected as excessively polite.
The compiler, appropriately named "ick," continues the parody. Anything the compiler canĘt understand, which in a normal language would result in a compilation error, is just skipped. This "forgiving" feature makes finding bugs very difficult; it also introduces a unique system for adding program comments. The programmer merely inserts non-compileable text anywhere in the program, being careful not to accidentally embed a bit of valid code in the middle of their comment."
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Ryysa
Paisti
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:54:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Ryysa on 21/10/2008 22:58:43
Originally by: Ami Nia
The robot real time requirements are totally unclear from the video. What they have shown are just two predefined sequences that can probably be programmed in basic and barely require any computation at all. Granted they SAY they are doing it interactively, so there must be more than what is shown.
You didn't listen, did you?
They explicitly said, that the computations are done every millisecond and if it misses a SINGLE one the robot will tear itself apart.
Also, the inverted pendulum... BASIC? Do you seriously think you will have enough reaction time?
Have you EVER coded a real time system before?
Quote:
In any case those are two demos of soft real time systems written in Java. The demos were from the company that invented Java. They are probably the only two softwares of the kind (ok, no, there are other too. Maybe a few dozens. So what?)
How's that proving anything?.
Well, I'd like you to explain, why Java hardware microchips are being massproduced right now.
Quote:
One thing they present as a plus is that they are running on a standard platform with Solaris. That alone is a reason NOT to consider it a viable solution in critical environments. Solaris is not a hard-real-time operating system. Plus you do not want a "standard platform" In those cases where you do not have the space, the power, the thermal conditions etc. to fit it. If it cannot run on a custom designed processor, it is not a viable solution.
You are missing the point. JVM runs on any platform it is implemented on. Intel, AMD64, ARM, Itanium whatever.
Your statement of a "custom designed processor" is also complete bullshit. It can run on a dedicated microchip if it needs. Doesn't matter.
Quote:
Besides, is SUN finally giving out the source code of all that?
That happened also like... 5 years ago.
You are completely anti-java for some reason.
May I ask you which language you code for a living? Or do you just copypaste angry posts on a forum?
The future is not a language where you have to allocate memory and mess with pointers, it's higher level languages - such as Java, Python (getting it's own JIT), C# etc.
It's not a language which fails RUNTIME after some time and blows up your expensive robot or tool, or worse, your passenger, but a language that has proper error recovery and easy clustering + failover.
We are inventing faster and faster microchips, but human lives and population (manhours) are not increasing at an even closely comparable number.
What if you had all the computing power in the world, but few programmers? You would code in the language that it would be faster(fastest) to develop/debug in.
Would that be ASM? C? C++? no way. Would that be Java? C#? more likely.
Either way - you are missing the point and your arguments bear no merit.
Please educate yourself on the subject, before shouting angry nonsense, I am done wasting my time on you.
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