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T2 ships make empire faction ships junk in comparison.

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Ekrid	Posted - 2008.09.10 07:01:00 - [1] Edited by: Ekrid on 10/09/2008 07:03:30 1. they cost a lot less than faction ships. 2. you grind a lot less to get them. 3. their stats, bonuses, fittings, etc, are also better than faction. 4. wtf? for proof, check the amarr navy slicer. I'm thinking the faction run militaries should always have the best stuff. I think that would make the cost worth it. instead of T2, you have a faction ship that you use to fight in, if you could afford it. Would make sense.
Prof Patpending Bodgit and Scarper Industrial	Posted - 2008.09.10 07:03:00 - [2] Its true, a Golem costs less than a CNR... oh wait.
Havohej Minmatar Comply Or Die G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.09.10 07:04:00 - [3] It's Tech 2... you don't need any special skills trained to fly faction, all you need is ISK. T2 should be better, based on the tougher skill requirements alone - a reward for putting the time in and waiting for your benefits. Not even a 1/10 on this one, mah man. Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Ekrid	Posted - 2008.09.10 07:04:00 - [4] Edited by: Ekrid on 10/09/2008 07:05:08 amarr navy slicer. 8 mil + 5000 LPs. contracts. 30-50 mil. worse in every way to a T2 frig. I'm already flying T2 ships before having the faction to buy faction ships.
Pan Fairchild Atropos Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.10 07:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Ekrid Edited by: Ekrid on 10/09/2008 07:05:08 amarr navy slicer. 8 mil + 5000 LPs. contracts. 30-50 mil. worse in every way to a T2 frig. I'm already flying T2 ships before having the faction to buy faction ships. Meh, I always saw the faction gear as a roleplaying element. Make them better than T2 and everyone will fly it, make it cheaper then T2 and a gazillion noobs run around with poorly fitted 'elite' ships... either way neither one makes sense. Although having said that whats up with the Dramiel? 25% dmg seems like a rather nice bonus... but a rifter can do more dps oh and run points and tank and well do just about everything the Dramiel does poorly.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.09.10 07:31:00 - [6] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 10/09/2008 07:31:01 The faction ships were introduced before T2. They are far better than virtually any other T1 frigate, cruiser, or battleship. They are working as intended (I guess.)
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.10 07:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 10/09/2008 07:31:01 The faction ships were introduced before T2. They are far better than virtually any other T1 frigate, cruiser, or battleship. They are working as intended (I guess.) Not really. If you look at a number of faction frigs, they work worse then their T1 counterparts. Look at the Firetail for instance. It gets 0 slots over a Rifter, has a gun less, and worse fittings. Some of the faction ships got a overhaul recently (Sansha, all the navy cruisers) and now they're quite good. Faction BS are very good as a rule. Navy Omen / Fleet Stabber / Navy Vexor / Navy Caracal (to some extent) are all good and valid ships. Many pirate faction cruisers have been left the same way for a long time and now they suck (in comparison to navy cruisers or even T1 cruisers in some cases) and are purely showoff ships nowdays. Basically, faction frigates need fixing, and pirate faction cruisers need fixing. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.09.10 07:52:00 - [8] Last time i checked faction cruisers were about as expensive as HACs (might have changed though, so dont shoot me for this), and empire faction BS are for sure cheaper than t2 BS. So first point is incorrect Second point is also incorrect. It is pretty much fail to buy them from LP shop, just buy them from contracts.
Banana Torres Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.09.10 08:59:00 - [9] Edited by: Banana Torres on 10/09/2008 09:02:10 oops
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.09.10 09:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Cpt Branko Not really. The only advantage of the Rifter over the Firetail is higher DPS and a negligibly smaller mass. Firetail is like 50% better than the Rifter in HP and capacitor (although I don't have EFT so I'm not sure how the slower recharge time actually affects the true level of capacitor power on the Firetail.) Faction ships aren't an automatic win button in 1v1's with a non-faction T1 counterpart, but they do tend to have higher stats. The stats typically aren't good enough to justify their high prices, although it might in the case of some of the battleships, so I won't try to argue on that point.

Jalaliba Minmatar Jalaliba Trading Company	Posted - 2008.09.10 09:44:00 - [11] I don't know about the other Faction ships but the Firetail outclasses a Rifter on speed, cap recharge and overall tank, the Rifter outclasses the Firetail on DPS. Of course, the relative prices of a few hundred thousand for a Rifter compared to a couple of ten millions for a Firetail, means the Rifter is a hell of a more cost-effective warship. However, Faction Warfare does give the Faction ships a unique place due to ship restrictions, but only for level 1 & 2 missions/complexes.
Asestorian Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.09.10 09:58:00 - [12] I've always seen most of the faction ships as collectors items, or ships used by those with just a little bit more ISK than they really know what to do with. It was only ever really at the Battleship level that you could see a decent improvement and reason to spend a little more cash on setting it up, because there were no Tech II Battleships. As it is now it's still a similar case as the Tech II Battleships we have are a broken Recon type and a mission running type --- Originally by: CCP Atropos Destiny Balls
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.10 10:00:00 - [13] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/09/2008 10:02:06 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Cpt Branko Not really. The only advantage of the Rifter over the Firetail is higher DPS and a negligibly smaller mass. Firetail is like 50% better than the Rifter in HP and capacitor (although I don't have EFT so I'm not sure how the slower recharge time actually affects the true level of capacitor power on the Firetail.) Rifter has more fittings as well, and a preety big DPS difference. Saying the Firetail is better is simply incorrect at any rate. Originally by: Dirk Magnum Faction ships aren't an automatic win button in 1v1's with a non-faction T1 counterpart, but they do tend to have higher stats. Well, take a look at faction cruisers (particularly navy ones) vs T1 cruisers. They're a automatic win button assuming any skill parity - they have more slots (often significantly more), more fittings, better stats, and so on. They rock T1 cruisers much the same way HACs rock T1 cruisers. On the other hand, pirate faction cruisers (except the Sansha one - Phantasm, because Sansha ships got boosted some patches ago) preety much suck. Their fittings were not touched in years, and they often get less slots then navy faction ones. Basically, they need fixing. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Namtar Gallente Rogue Industries	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:05:00 - [14] There not as good as T2 because there T1 ships. If CCP ever put out faction T2 ships then you might have a point.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:27:00 - [15] and you point is ??? Time is not Money and minerals i mine are free!!
Borar Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:30:00 - [16] Faction ships are for noobs with low skills ,then they rock.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:34:00 - [17] Next time look at the ship before you try to buy it. Faction ships are just fun little trophies to play with ayways. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely outclassed
heheheh PedoHamma	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:39:00 - [18] yea faction ships arent suppose to be the best, just a thing to collect.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:40:00 - [19] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/09/2008 11:40:17 Originally by: DubanFP Next time look at the ship before you try to buy it. Faction ships are just fun little trophies to play with ayways. Originally by: heheheh yea faction ships arent suppose to be the best, just a thing to collect. I'll just assume you haven't even been reading (even though I conceptually disagree that they are/should be just a thing to keep in hangar). Take a, say, Fleet Stabber, or most of the other navy cruisers. They got boosted a bit ago, and are now light years better then T1 cruisers - or non-Sansha pirate faction cruisers (which are now rather broken). They're somewhat worse then HACs for flat out combat, of course (although arguably better for some things). Basically, they're fine. Other ships in the same class as them require loving. Take a Succubus when we talk about faction frigates. It's way better then T1 frigates and only somewhat inferior to AFs. Now compare it to a Firetail or a Dramiel which suck in the most spectacular fashion. Do you get the issue now? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:40:00 - [20] I wish the faction ships were more in line with named items. Meta 4, that kind of thing. Equal to T2 ships, in short. And I wish there were a lot more faction ships. Amarr Navy Slicer ... let it be on line with the Amarr interceptors, except without the extra T2 bonus. An expensive ship that is on par with T2, just like Meta 4 is on par with T2. T2 is better, due to skill bonuses, but on the base item, it's nearly the same. We need more faction ships, too. I want an Amarr Navy Punisher, or a Navy Issue Armageddon. Ahh, those would be nice. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun

Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/09/2008 11:40:17 Originally by: DubanFP Next time look at the ship before you try to buy it. Faction ships are just fun little trophies to play with ayways. Originally by: heheheh yea faction ships arent suppose to be the best, just a thing to collect. I'll just assume you haven't even been reading (even though I conceptually disagree that they are/should be just a thing to keep in hangar). Take a, say, Fleet Stabber, or most of the other navy cruisers. They got boosted a bit ago, and are now light years better then T1 cruisers - or non-Sansha pirate faction cruisers (which are now rather broken). They're somewhat worse then HACs for flat out combat, of course (although arguably better for some things). Basically, they're fine. Other ships in the same class as them require loving. Take a Succubus when we talk about faction frigates. It's way better then T1 frigates and only somewhat inferior to AFs. Now compare it to a Firetail or a Dramiel which suck in the most spectacular fashion. Do you get the issue now? Yeah, they really need to show the Dramiel some loving. Firetail? Meh, who cares about the firetail. But the Dramiel is pure sexy! Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:42:00 - [22] Edited by: Steve Hawkings on 10/09/2008 11:41:52 lol Time is not Money and minerals i mine are free!!
heheheh PedoHamma	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/09/2008 11:40:17 Originally by: DubanFP Next time look at the ship before you try to buy it. Faction ships are just fun little trophies to play with ayways. Originally by: heheheh yea faction ships arent suppose to be the best, just a thing to collect. I'll just assume you haven't even been reading (even though I conceptually disagree that they are/should be just a thing to keep in hangar). Take a, say, Fleet Stabber, or most of the other navy cruisers. They got boosted a bit ago, and are now light years better then T1 cruisers - or non-Sansha pirate faction cruisers (which are now rather broken). They're somewhat worse then HACs for flat out combat, of course (although arguably better for some things). Basically, they're fine. Other ships in the same class as them require loving. Take a Succubus when we talk about faction frigates. It's way better then T1 frigates and only somewhat inferior to AFs. Now compare it to a Firetail or a Dramiel which suck in the most spectacular fashion. Do you get the issue now? I understood the issue in the first place, there is no issue.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:44:00 - [24] Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ops original point is that if you compare faction items to named items and T2 items, you get an obviously 'superior' product over pretty much every T1 item, and on the base item, even over T2 (not including skill bonuses). Ships should reflect that trend. Faction ships should be better than even their T2 counterparts, minus a bonus and correlating skills. Resistances, fitting, etc. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:46:00 - [25] Quote: Ships should reflect that trend. Faction ships should be better than even their T2 counterparts, minus a bonus and correlating skills. Resistances, fitting, etc. why ? becuse you say so ? I disagree wholeheartedly, they are for your hangar or high sec showing off, and they require not many skills compared to T2. Time is not Money and minerals i mine are free!!
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:50:00 - [26] Originally by: Steve Hawkings Quote: Ships should reflect that trend. Faction ships should be better than even their T2 counterparts, minus a bonus and correlating skills. Resistances, fitting, etc. why ? becuse you say so ? I disagree wholeheartedly, they are for your hangar or high sec showing off, and they require not many skills compared to T2. Well, it's one of those 'if it makes sense here, why not there' moments for me. If it makes sense for faction modules to be the omgwtfpwnage, horribly overpriced modules that they are ... why does it not make sense that faction ships shouldn't reflect that? Faction modules don't require many skills compared to their T2 counterparts, do they? Maybe it's not faction ships that are broken, but faction modules. Or, maybe this is just a simple discussion and we can just agree to disagree. I don't expect any changes to come off of a single, poorly thought out 'discuss' post. Not sure where all the hate is being generated lately Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:50:00 - [27] Originally by: Steve Hawkings Quote: Ships should reflect that trend. Faction ships should be better than even their T2 counterparts, minus a bonus and correlating skills. Resistances, fitting, etc. why ? becuse you say so that's more to the point many faction items are just that, less skills better gear. the idea being that if your newer it doesn't mean your wearer if you put more time into the game. and risk more. I don't see what's wrong with giving them a role, they don't have to replace tech 2 ships to be better than them in some way, or maybe justas good. I disagree wholeheartedly, they are for your hangar or high sec showing off, and they require not many skills compared to T2.
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:51:00 - [28] Obviously you've never had a Macheriel yes thats a faction ship and with the skills in place, pretty much the best damn BS out there, least imho. Please, jump into traffic
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.10 11:54:00 - [29] Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/09/2008 11:40:17 Originally by: DubanFP Next time look at the ship before you try to buy it. Faction ships are just fun little trophies to play with ayways. Originally by: heheheh yea faction ships arent suppose to be the best, just a thing to collect. I'll just assume you haven't even been reading (even though I conceptually disagree that they are/should be just a thing to keep in hangar). Take a, say, Fleet Stabber, or most of the other navy cruisers. They got boosted a bit ago, and are now light years better then T1 cruisers - or non-Sansha pirate faction cruisers (which are now rather broken). They're somewhat worse then HACs for flat out combat, of course (although arguably better for some things). Basically, they're fine. Other ships in the same class as them require loving. Take a Succubus when we talk about faction frigates. It's way better then T1 frigates and only somewhat inferior to AFs. Now compare it to a Firetail or a Dramiel which suck in the most spectacular fashion. Do you get the issue now? I understood the issue in the first place, there is no issue. It's nice to see EvE is so friendly to the mentally handicapped. Ok, let me put it like this: (a) Some Faction ships suck horribly in comparison to other faction ships. (b) Faction ships which suck in contrast to their counterparts need a boost to bring them up to their level. (c) Faction ships which are worse then T1 need a fix. Is that so complicated to understand? Of course, people who cannot afford to PvP in faction ships will always whine that they're just a thing to collect. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
eddie valvetino Caldari ECP Rogues	Posted - 2008.09.10 12:00:00 - [30] Originally by: Ekrid Edited by: Ekrid on 10/09/2008 07:03:30 1. they cost a lot less than faction ships. 2. you grind a lot less to get them. 3. their stats, bonuses, fittings, etc, are also better than faction. 4. wtf? for proof, check the amarr navy slicer. I'm thinking the faction run militaries should always have the best stuff. I think that would make the cost worth it. instead of T2, you have a faction ship that you use to fight in, if you could afford it. Would make sense. wrong Navy Mega sub 300mill Kronos nearly 700mill I don't see ya point anyway nor do i care (\_/) (O.o) (> <)



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