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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 30 post(s) |
Ch3244
Azule Dragoons
Sspectre
4
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:22:00 -
[331] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:jonnykefka wrote:It adds another "risk" weight to botting. Many corps won't touch botters, especially as bot-acquired assets are seized. If the practice of "scarlet letters" is itself advertised, it basically means anyone who chooses to bot does so knowing that they will lose all of the assets they gain and probably have to biomass their char if they ever get caught. It's all risk vs. reward calculations, so up the risk and the overall behavior of botting will likely become less common. But does simply adding risk without the capacity to become a good citizen by curbing action make sense is I guess what I'm curious about? I know EVE and I know actions should have results but I'm a bit concerned about the terms. The red letter need not be permanent. Perhaps 3-6 months, maybe a year or more depending on the amount of isk involved.
The reality is it would become permanent, because someone would surely establish a database with everyone who was ever marked. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
3181
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:38:00 -
[332] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:AkJon Ferguson wrote:The primary advantage of the scarlet letter would undoubtedly be as a deterrent and I support the concept for that reason.
Maybe the scarlet letter could be removed after say 1 year of good behavior? But I could argue that there are plenty of other deterrents in place. This one has the additional negative of also providing a disincentive for turning into a Good Guy, which is something we've been trying to prevent.
Can't do the time?
Don't do the crime.
Are you talking about applying the "Scarlet letter" to the account or the character used to bot? "Casual" botters rarely bot with their mains - heck, they usually use a seperate account anyway so far as I am aware. Can you produce stats that would indicate that the concern you are raising is numerically significant?
I agree that a scarlet letter applied to a specific character - one which is now locked into that account - is likely to lead to the character being biomassed, but I'm not convinced that this would be "fatal" to the player involved. If someone has no more involvement with EVE than to bot, then good riddance to them. If the player is involved in actual gameplay, then they'll switch to some other method of generating income (hopefully an EULA-compliant one).
The main benefit to we the players of "scarlet letters" is to be able to unambiguously identify botters, and those organisations that tolerate or even cater to them.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Ceratin
Dark-Rising
3
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:09:00 -
[333] - Quote
WeRWatchingU wrote:One of the biggest problems with this entire idea, is the fact that I personally know of several accounts that have been banned for botting, but the person who owned the accounts never used a bot. He's disabled, mines to support his sons efforts in null sec
He's been band twice, just because he has auto reject on and doesn't talk to anyone in local. EVER. The pilots that gank him report him as a bot because he doesn't respond to their hails, nor does he cry in local when he gets poded. He's just dedicated to providing isk for his son in null sec
How would any of this be fair to a pilot like this? The fact that you can get baned just because you auto-reject convos, don't talk in local, but sit and mine for 16-18 hours a day religiously.... there are more pilots like this than you'd think. I personally know of several handicapped people that mine for hours on end, in the same manor, so that they can buy plexs' to play EVE.
Since mining is a simple repetitive task that takes little focus, there are actually several institutions that provide laptops for their residence to play EVE. What do they do? MINE. Yet their accounts get banned all the time, just because they auto reject convos and never talk in local
It's even more pathetic that when they do get banned, they can't petition it because they can't even get on the forum to start one. If their pilots get named, it makes them a target for the pilots that shouldn't even be able to get into a ship in high-sec to start with. The whole system of reporting someone as a bot-then them getting banned needs to be reworked, if your going to publish a list.
Being banned just because joe-the-ahole tried to convo you and you auto rejected it, so he reports you as a bot, is about as lame as as it gets. If your going to publish a list,
LOL shut up
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
965
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:45:00 -
[334] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Benilopax wrote:As CCP were saying at fanfest, as people are saying about Mitts.
It's all about consequences.
You do something bad there are consequences, as long as it's made clear to people beforehand I say do it. This is actually my biggest problem with the thing. We'd be putting ourselves in the position of making a solid statement that would incur player consequences and I prefer to stay out of the sandbox if that makes sense.
That's the whole problem when you take position. You get in the sandbox like it or not once you flag the char, so either you guys smash it straight from the first attempt or you implement something telling yourselves "noes noes I can't see it" while eye balling on it.
You want to make it a good player?
-smash his wallet, take him 50% SP, char stuck in account. 2nd attempt just biomass everything.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
446
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:57:00 -
[335] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:I'll try to respond to your post, but just to keep this thread a bit cleaner, I'm not going to quote everything that you said 1) "pretty much known" is fancy forum speak for "I'm guessing this is how they do it, but I really don't know". You and me both know it. Neither of us are security experts, and honestly, despite the criticism, there's probably only a handful of people in Eve with the ability and experiance to do Screegs job, most are just forum warriors.
Being a very "public face" on the MD forum, heavy investor / consultant and auditor (= super "investigator"), I had many opportunities to talk with hundreds and hundreds of players, hundreds of full API keys and much more, including hi sec, lo sec, WH and 0.0 individuals and alliances. I found out a number of botters and even RM Traders both before and after being caught. It's why I have a certain knowledge of what happens and how it goes. You maybe don't, but I do.
BeanBagKing wrote:2) I don't think or expect that CCP would make a public apology if they did make a mistake. This is something I'd like to hear more about from Screegs. Have you guys ever found you've made a mistake? Have you been corrected by that player and/or his petition? What is done in the case that you do find yourselves in error? On second thought I have heard of someone petitioning a macro ban and getting it reversed with an appology from the GM. https://sites.google.com/site/khromtor/oldrigs Now, there may have been some trouble involved in getting it reversed. I'll be honest and admit that after getting home at 10pm I don't feel like re-reading the entire page, but the first section contains the part I'm referencing.
That was a very rare case of extreme multi-boxing NOT of botting.
This is very important to say, because the former can prove he has the actual hardware at hands and show how he does it, the latter CANNOT EVER.
A guy who gets tracked for botting (i.e. because somebody reported him):
- Won't know an investigation has been started on him. All he will see is either nothing or a sudden interruption of gameplay.
- Even if he had, he won't have any tool to gather evidence on his favor.
- If he gets banned he's insta-forum banned, insta-ANYTHING EvE banned. Only way to contact CCP is a very ancient and obsolete general contact form, where he'll be in the same queue with spam, people asking CCP for info about the game, general contact information and so on. This means that by the time he gets the first reply (weeks) his ban has already been lifted, making the whole petitioning process pointless.
- During these weeks he will lose his in space assets or at least have them sitting passively and with no shields etc.
- Of those I talked with, no one EVER got reimbursed. No one EVER was given any tool to prove his innocence. No one EVER got the process reversed. No one EVER got shown the logs claiming his wrongdoing.
It's a completely single-sided process where the accused party is completely excluded off any way to defend themselves. Can't produce proof, can't send logs (the few residing on the client).
- They ban all the related accounts (I don't know how but seeking for same subscriber payment details could be the way) yet in case of behavioral ban, CCP don't track of non bottable contemporary activity played on the other accounts. I.e. in theory you can get banned because you were investigated on 2 open clients while actively chatting in corp with 10 other people on a third. Nor sending the chat log of such convo will be accepted as proof (can be tampered of course!)
Basically who gets accused is IMPOTENT, be him guilty or be him innocent. The handful who buy another subscription JUST to post in General Discussion about their innocence, get autobanned after a short while (I think next downtime but THIS is hard to find information), they also get manually banned sooner, because talking about a ban, and all of this usually only cause mass derision and disbelief by the angry mob.
I have no reason to believe or not believe that those who told me this were actually innocent or not (guess what? No evidence can be gathered by me either except for RMT) but if you extract only the procedures used to deal with them, the whole process sucks and I would not want anyone innocent to be hit by such a truck. Expecially in a game where you spend many years achieving something and where everybody else are out to remove you whatever the means involved.
BeanBagKing wrote:
Again, it's placing the power in the hands of the players, which I think is a good thing.
No, it's placing power in the hands of a bunch of hateful idiots who can't wait to throw their frustrations over the designated Star Marked pariah. Just look at the other threads in the first page for abundant proof.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
51
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:00:00 -
[336] - Quote
First conviction for botting - no name and shame
Second conviction for botting - name and shame |
Sturmwolke
151
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:14:00 -
[337] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:
How do you buy a new tengu pilot when you don't have any ISK to buy it with?
- Assets, sell them. One that comes to mind are floating secure cans. If only CCP allows scanning them down .....
- ISK laundering operations. Seemingly legit schemes used as cover.
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Doctor Eezee
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
103
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:22:00 -
[338] - Quote
So I just skimmed over the thread, because I couldn't really be bothered to actually read 17 pages of the same bad arguments.
Somehow people actually think that people with the "Scarlet Letter" will actually continue to use that character. People will just quit the game.
CCP will lose money and the players haven't actually gained anything, because 92% of first time offenders never do anything again.
And the guys who actually should be banned, the "hardcore botters", will just buy another Tengu char, because 6b is not that much and people will always find ways to hide their isk somewhere.
I'm pretty sure that at most 1/10th of the guys in here have actually watched the presentation, otherwise they wouldn't make these suggestions.
"My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack; if it is a vessel equal to yours, attack; and if it is stronger than yours, also attack..." - Admiral Stepan O. Makarov |
Headerman
Quovis
CORE Alliance
773
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:28:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Please try to stay on topic. If this thread gets garbaged (Sarah Palin License to invent words) then we'll clean it but I'd rather we just stick to the topic and provide some really good input personally.
You know i once tried to stay on topic like you...
... But then i took an arrow in the knee.
The Apostle : I want a kangeroo
Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians
Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US?
Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Florestan Bronstein
United Highsec Front
The 99 Percent
486
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:30:00 -
[340] - Quote
Sin Pew wrote:Florestan Bronstein wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:
3) CCP detects botting behaviour and bans EVERY SINGLE ACCOUNT associated with that player
CCP does not always success at this as evidenced by many posts on botting forums. They often seem to leave some accounts alone for reasons that even the botters themselves don't understand. And of course serious botters try very hard to keep accounts separated. once the isk has been converted into rl money the botter doesn't have to worry much about asset seizure anymore - as the post you replied to points out it is very much a race against the clock that CCP has to win. Yeah, it's clear the Inquisition and the Holocaust are great examples to follow then. I'm sure Joan of Arc would love the idea.
I have already posted my opinion two times in this thread, not going to post it a third time.
As to your post - I'm not a religious person but I have great respect for the catholic church and that institution's ability to transfer its doctrine through the times. In my opinion the relentless fight against heresy - prominently starting with the Arians in the 3rd century and the Nestorian Schism in the 5th was absolutely crucial to the survival and success of a recognizable Christian creed.
The large number of protestant churches each with its own set of beliefs and more recently the pentecostal churches introduce an element of ambiguity and the notion of faith being based on personal preference (as opposed to one universal truth) which are highly dangerous to the role of Christianity as a common/uniting source of values and beliefs.
If you think I have an issue with the Inquisition you are wrong.
(yes, the case of Joan of Arc was an unfortunate and politically motivated one - but a retrial happened very soon after her death and she was cleared of all accusations of heresy. But when dealing with people with "visions" I generally approve of the stance that Dostoyevsky's Grand Inquisitor takes: it is sincerely regrettable but sometimes you have to do all the wrong things for the right reasons). |
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Kell Tarhun
The Crooked Path
BLACK-MARK
15
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:37:00 -
[341] - Quote
Dear CCP Sreegs
It my opinion you asking huge population of 0.0 players "Do you wan't your profits to be minimalized".
By marking bot player you simply give us players option to see which player is involved in RMT and botting.
Many of us wait for such move for years.... Many of my friends left this game considering no real actions against boting in 0.0 and in game. Personally i see those bots i reported still running and making isk.
1 single botting corporation is capable to ruin enjoyment of thousand players as those who know whats going on see no sense fighting vs endless isk in botters wallet.
Giving us option to actually see involved chars in botting is great idea.
Benefits:
- players will see that CCP team started to do sth against RMT and botting as atm there is more public relation manouvers than real fight vs bots as i see in 0.0
- high sec players might move to 0.0 as there will be more space for real players as botters leave (alliances need to make profit, if bots gone players will generate it)
Losses:
- well those who gain isk using bots will propably flood you of ideas against making their interest public
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Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
81
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:51:00 -
[342] - Quote
By all means mark the person as a cheater, all their accounts. But put a time limit on it, if they dont re-offended in 12-18 month then clean the slate. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
449
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:00:00 -
[343] - Quote
Kell Tarhun wrote:
Benefits:
- players will see that CCP team started to do sth against RMT and botting as atm there is more public relation manouvers than real fight vs bots as i see in 0.0
- high sec players might move to 0.0 as there will be more space for real players as botters leave (alliances need to make profit, if bots gone players will generate it)
CCP has started to do more than "sth" against RMT.
- They hired CCP Sreegs and a team just to tackle the issue.
- They are changing loot and bounties over the months to make certain obvious bot friendly activities harder (i.e. ratting nerf).
- They have invented PLEX and now more or less controlling their price as a direct competition against RMTers (in multiple dimensions).
- They introduced client side detection.
All these things are not so blatant but are statistically relevant.
Sadly it'a a game of police and thieves, therefore the RMTers will always try and find new ways to counter CCP's policing.
0.0 is particularly hard, because 0.0 is the perfect bot paradise. The RMTers will go in rarely if ever frequented out of hand places. Few guys to report them compared to hi sec (where every ice mining system and missioning system has dozens in local all the time, all eyes who can see and click report). Often times, those who could report them are blue to them.
Their bots are not the stupid hi sec mining bots: their bots detect who enters in local, can warp around, can warp to POS. I would not be surprised if they also mimicked some human behavior or could reply to easy questions.
Basically CCP are doing great with the statistic detection systems but don't have the ability to put a squadron of employees watching over the players shoulders in hundreds of 0.0 systems. The statistic detection system might be partially or totally automated, while the "I report 0.0 bot => CCP employee checks it out over days => action taken" process could take a lot of time.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Kell Tarhun
The Crooked Path
BLACK-MARK
15
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:31:00 -
[344] - Quote
[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]
CCP has started to do more than "sth" against RMT.
- They hired CCP Sreegs and a team just to tackle the issue.
- They are changing loot and bounties over the months to make certain obvious bot friendly activities harder (i.e. ratting nerf).
- They have invented PLEX and now more or less controlling their price as a direct competition against RMTers (in multiple dimensions).
- They introduced client side detection.
/quote]
1) Hiring dev that made this idea is very good idea
2) loot and bounties hurts real players not bots......real players will make isk harder - bots will make their standard ammount just by increasing their numbers
3) plex is finall way of buying isk. Before boter even decide to buy isk he will "Wash" it using so many other possibilites this game got to offer that ccp investigation of isk made by bots might be impossible to track.
Imagine you making isk of bot. You buy salvage for example, you make rig, you sell rig, you buy blueprint, you make ship, you sell ship.....you buy plex of isk made by selling ship...
Thats one of many ways ccp can be easily tricked and if they check source...they will see profit of ship sold....
4) client side detection can do nothing against Virtual Machines that bots using.
You can make Eve client on them and use 1 pc with multuply ammount of them. Makes no real diffrent to botters....
SO yes i agree to you just with point 1)
That ccp Sreegs made this post and good idea that got chance to give us info about those RMT guys |
quickshot89
No trouble in the midst
STR8NGE BREW
10
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:32:00 -
[345] - Quote
A big yes from me, name and shame the player, we have no need for cheats in game, better to get rid of them by taking away the thing they do best, which is hiding away un-noticed |
ed jeni
SKULLDOGS
RED.OverLord
18
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:19:00 -
[346] - Quote
as a corp CEO i would like to see if any applications to corp had been flagged as botting in say 12months prior to their application. then i can at least make an informed decision as to whether they should be allowed in or not.
i would suggest that this flag is only viewable to CEO and maybe directors.
of course there will no doubt be a bit of naming and shaming but consequences of prior bad behavior sometimes come back to haunt those responsible.
if allowed, then at least within corp we can keep an eye out to make sure that the practice has ceased and if not we can quickly remove them from corp.
whether this flag should remain after a char sale cycle is complete is not an easy one to answer though.
its not an answer to the botting issue but it does reduce the laundering of botting accounts.
Ed |
bornaa
GRiD.
138
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Posted - 2012.03.28 15:32:00 -
[347] - Quote
If its problem "what if they do turn good again".
Even if i think that once a criminal all ways a criminal.
Do you erase criminals police file so that you encourage him to become good???
Criminal must be marked forever.
But, lets get back to idea for CCPs calmer mind,
but crime flag on all first time banned accounts for a time of like 18 months. (18 payed months of gametime!!!!!!)
That months must be connected to the time account is active.
so that time passes out only if owner is PAYING that account for next 18 months.
Player will be paying if its important char for him and if its alt you know that its not important to him and he would kill it anyway.
-> locking of chars to account must be permanent from first strike.
And for second offence flag it forever!!!
And yea, we all must see the flags!!!!!
CEOs are persons like everybody else and we all need to know if we do business with ex criminal. |
Avila Cracko
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
238
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Posted - 2012.03.28 15:37:00 -
[348] - Quote
khm, khm... 
Of course that goons are against this
@ CCP:
Make world better for little, non criminal, people. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
449
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 15:49:00 -
[349] - Quote
Kell Tarhun wrote:
2) loot and bounties hurts real players not bots......real players will make isk harder - bots will make their standard ammount just by increasing their numbers
No, because real players went to do hi sec incursions anyway and rats are capped in the amount that can be killed per day per system.
Kell Tarhun wrote:
3) plex is finall way of buying isk. Before boter even decide to buy isk he will "Wash" it using so many other possibilites this game got to offer that ccp investigation of isk made by bots might be impossible to track.
PLEX is a CCP control on ISK value and a legit alternative to buying money. RMTers have been damaged by PLEX introduction much more than by the anti-botting campaigns.
Kell Tarhun wrote:
Imagine you making isk of bot. You buy salvage for example, you make rig, you sell rig, you buy blueprint, you make ship, you sell ship.....you buy plex of isk made by selling ship...
Thats one of many ways ccp can be easily tricked and if they check source...they will see profit of ship sold....
There are quicker and easier (and safer) ways to wash money than this.
Kell Tarhun wrote:
4) client side detection can do nothing against Virtual Machines that bots using.
You can make Eve client on them and use 1 pc with multuply ammount of them. Makes no real diffrent to botters....
Client side detection fingerprints the account used, CCP bans all the related accounts, VM or not.
Without it, all the illicit 3rd party software use could not be proved / detected and CCP would be still at 2005 situation of having to manually check every suspicious player by hand.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
449
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 15:53:00 -
[350] - Quote
bornaa wrote:If its problem "what if they do turn good again".
Even if i think that once a criminal all ways a criminal.
Do you erase criminals police file so that you encourage him to become good???
Criminal must be marked forever.
I would hate to live in your country.
There are plenty of "criminals" who had to steal stuff because they were in a contingency (lost job, a family disgrace, long hospital cures). You mark and ruin the life of people who were slammed in a corner, beaten down and then made an example for the stupid mob to burn on a stake.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Mirima Thurander
Total Annihilation.
G00DFELLAS
271
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Posted - 2012.03.28 16:11:00 -
[351] - Quote
you can also look at it from this point.
there not botting in there alliance that they like but they can have alt accounts that bot, your giving warnings to ALL the accounts botter's own give that they could get flag as a botter and removed from there main alliance because of it.
lets give an example.
BoB has 5 accounts.
bob has 3 of thos accounts botting away in a anonymous corp in high sec.
bob plays 2 of these accounts in his corp hes a part of out in null. playing like normal.
well his bots get found and ALL 5 accounts are flaged.
now his playing accounts are flagged as botters and he is shamed for it and could possibly be kicked from his corp that hes part of on his none botting accounts.
now you have it where if they bot they had best hope there corp/alliance doesn't care about bots.
or there botting could mes up there none botting accounts.
lets go ahead and add one more layer on to this and go ahead and say even IF they biomass there players all new players on that account come out flaged.
in the end its still just 1 more way to discourage it.
discouraging botting is JUST as important as stopping the botters we have now.
I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
449
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Posted - 2012.03.28 16:53:00 -
[352] - Quote
It's already like this. All the accounts get banned and nothing points at CCP not putting purple letters on all of them afterwards.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
adam smash
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.03.28 17:13:00 -
[353] - Quote
If CCP wants to reform the botter, the first strike needs to be a light one... as it is now...
After that sure... mark them. Either everyone here was a perfect kid and never did any wrong or... I mean come on.
< used to shoplift as a kid... was caught... never did it again.
Part of being caught the first time was, no record of it. Putting this into eve...
At this point IMO it is more worth not doing it again than once you been named... once you were named what do you have to lose?
If CCP names the bots (the first time) your marked... odds are that chars eve life is pretty much over... might as well bot it up... maybe even bot it up to RMT now because again... chars life is over.
If CCP does not name the bot (the first time) that char if they were going to reform, well... the char can go play eve as normal with no blacklash...
The reaction in the thread here for those who say mark... kinda proves the point... once you get a mark you are done IMO you might as well bot it up... or just biomass the char.
No mark gives you the chance to turn around, ONE chance.
And yes people are gona say well if you don't want to be marked don't start... very true I go back to the "I guess you were a perfect kid" doing no wrong (gov laws or parrents laws) and the fact CCP said they want to reform the bots not just remove them. |
Alain Kinsella
97
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Posted - 2012.03.28 20:10:00 -
[354] - Quote
Paging CCP Sreegs....
We're pretty much running in circles about this for now. Waiting to see what his reactions to current discussion is.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
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BrainDrain
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 20:48:00 -
[355] - Quote
I can't see anything useful coming out of naming and shaming players.
However, I could see some sort of background checking service (paid for in whatever the monocle currency is or ISK) provided by CCP being useful to corp CEOs to help them vet new members.
It could start with infractions levied by CCP (botting and other instances of being naughty) and it could easily become an extremely comprehensive profile of the player in question. Of course, the more comprehensive the report, the more it will cost.
This feature could be limited to only corp CEOs and directors, but it could be open to all players and compliment their corp applications. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex
Cosmic Consortium
1101
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Posted - 2012.03.28 21:13:00 -
[356] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:You are however giving us the opportunity to identify them and deal with them in different ways. Some corps *cough* might seek out these players, under the assumption that they would increase profits at whatever cost. Some corps may hunt these players, or deny them access. You've created a mechanic that the players can deal with in whatever way they want.
How will chasing scarlet lettered capsuleers increase profits?
They have been caught botting, they have had their illegitimately gained production confiscated, so they are now stuck playing the game legitimately with no assets. What are you going to gain by hunting these people, besides satisfying your own bloodlust?
BeanBagKing wrote:To answer your specific question, what would the benefit be to us, I think it would mostly be in the area of recruiting. However, the way I envision it there could (and probably would) be people that form "their game" around hunting botter accounts in the same way there's anti-pirate corps. The benefit is that our sandbox grows, there's more options for us.
Do you realise that most "bot hunters" will just blow up anyone who doesn't answer chat requests within 30 seconds? They head out to mining fleets and start bumping people. If you don't react to the bumping in some way within a minute, they decide that you must be a botter and therefore a legitimate target. They don't care whether you're actually botting or not, they're just looking to rationalise their ganking. I guess for some reason ganking legitimate miners is somehow "bad" whereas ganking botting miners is somehow "good", but there is no moral weight applied to making an incorrect judgement that someone is a bother. I don't know why they bother: just gank and be done with it.
BeanBagKing wrote:Edit: For another isk sink/game mechanic, tie the removal of the botting "tag" to bribing concord. You straight up pay isk to have it removed.
So next time someone wants to accuse me of botting, they check my CONCORD record, see that I have no "marks" against me, so they figure, "ah, so this evil botter just paid off CONCORD! That makes my ganking them doubly justified and I don't have to feel guilty about depriving this miner of their Hulk!"
BeanBagKing wrote:For me the question is less "should it be done?" and more "HOW should it be done?"
You're just rationalising your shaky morality. All of these scarlet letter supporters are only interested in an excuse to gank someone. Grow a spine, take responsibility for your own actions and acknowledge that you just like cheap kills. Scarlet letters will not make your ganking morally justifiable, except to the lynch mob mindset.
Remember that by the time the scarlet letter is applied, the botter had already been punished by CCP. Vilification by the players is not going to help that player stick to the straight and narrow.
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BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
137
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Posted - 2012.03.28 21:28:00 -
[357] - Quote
Quote:How will chasing scarlet...
In that instance I meant seeking them out to recruit them (bringing their profits into the corp). Others would hunt them. Sorry.
Quote:Do you realise that most "bot...
Right now there is no real way to tell if someone is or has been a botter (not for the players), so yea, they gank anyone that they feel even might be. If you gave players a way to tell the difference yes, some might still just gank anyone they see (some will always do that). I'd bet a lot of ISK though that there would be a certain group that would only hunt those that had been "tagged", much like the anti-pirate corps that exist in game now. Only a trial would tell though.
Quote:So next time someone wants to...
That's an awful big leap in logic. Most people don't bot, the general assumption would be if you don't have the tag, you're probably one of those. If you start making leaps in logic like that I could assume almost anything I wanted to about you. You don't have a negative sec status. You're probably some griefing pirate that just ratted away his neg status! I mean comon... If people want to justify something they'll always find a way to do it. This doesn't give them any more or less of a way than they do now.
Quote:You're just rationalising...
I'm rationalizing stuff? You just had an argument that went along the lines of "He doesn't have a tag, therefor he must be a botter". People will rationalize anything. Also, look at my history. I live in 0.0 and participate almost exclusively in fleet fights. I don't need or want a reason to gank anyone. Grow a spine? My ganking? My actions? My cheap kills? Talk about rationalizing stuff again... You make the assumption that just because I'm for something I must be an evil pirate killing hulks off the jita undock or something.
If people want an excuse to gank someone they'll make one. Or hell, it's Eve, they'll make none at all and just gank anyway. They've free to do that. They don't need a reason, therefor this doesn't give them any more or less of a reason than they have before.
The botter may be punished by CCP, but that doesn't mean that this punishment cannot be extended to the players. A pirate is "punished" by CCP by not allowing him to enter certain sec status systems, or a faction warfare player into certain other regions. However, those players may still be attacked or helped by other players as they see fit. Again, let the players decide, put the power in their hands.
If you think they need help getting reformed, sticking to the straight and narrow, start an organization designed to HELP people with those tags. I have no problem with that. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex
Cosmic Consortium
1101
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 21:33:00 -
[358] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:The main benefit to we the players of "scarlet letters" is to be able to unambiguously identify botters, and those organisations that tolerate or even cater to them.
The benefit of "scarlet letters" is to be able to unambiguously identify accounts which have been caught botting and punished by CCP.
Go read Les Miserables. Just have a think about the implication of the yellow ticket ("release papers" for paroled criminals).
In real life, we have the opportunity to perform police checks on potential employees. This is an expensive service, and requires the consent of the party being examined.
I'd be happy with this kind of system:
- Mara Rinn applies to Corporation X, authorises a CONCORD crime check
- Corporation X recruiter can request a CONCORD crime check for some tens of millions of ISK
- CONCORD will issue the recruiter a confidential report of the number of Mara Rinn's security status losses, and any convictions for botting, and killmails for all own-corp kills
- Due to (new) rules in the EULA, any attempt to share this information outside Corporation X recruitment will result in a permaban for all accounts of the recruiter, all CEO/Director level characters in the corporation, and anyone caught in possession of the information.
This allows recruiters to protect their corporations from lazy people without resorting to "scarlet letters". The penalties of ISK up front and the potential for permabanning if misused should reduce the abuse of this system. Of course, this will simply result in shady corporations using disposable accounts for recruitment corps within an alliance.
How long until we have a prominent null sec alliance leader on stage at the Alliance Panel talking about how they managed to game this system, laughing at how this care bear they recruited in Corporation X has never had a security hit for anything, but wants to go play in null sec. LOL!
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Pawnee
hirr
Against ALL Authorities
8
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Posted - 2012.03.28 21:46:00 -
[359] - Quote
Awesome, I got not one answer on my post and instead people discuss about justice, false positives and what not. As if there were many laws in this game. Somebody has to mention of course the holocaust, Godwin's finest.
Meanwhile the botters, I named, had another 2 days of undisturbed business. Under this circumstance we do not need Scarlett letters.
Happy botting. |
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
253
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 21:49:00 -
[360] - Quote
If character did show up w/a scarlet letter it shoudl show up pn the contracts or market page...
Also would be nice to ID alliances that support it. Not to black list but maybe where to focus some operations that bots tend to be vulnerable to.
Need more-ádecent content a casual player can access in a 1-2h play period that is actually fun and contributes to long term personal and corp goals. This applies to PvE and PvP. |
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