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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.06.15 06:01:00 -
[1]
Upon recently browsing through the database on www.eve-db.com I noticed that the skill descriptions and the skill rank had changed for all of the advanced learning skills since I last visited (which was a while ago).
Does this suggest that these skills are just placeholders and that they are merely made up by the team at Eve Database?
Or
Did the team somehow extract this change from the game's code which may perhaps suggest that these skills are geared for release sometime SoonÖ?
All Comments, Thoughts, Flames and Suggestions Welcome.
The Sloth.
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Selenajra
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Posted - 2004.06.15 07:20:00 -
[2]
Well, to put things into persepctive. ANYTHING that's not live on TQ is a placeholder. Also, after anything is live and on TQ, it is still subject to change (both small and large).
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Aitrus
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Posted - 2004.06.15 08:08:00 -
[3]
The level 5 pre-reqs make sense, so that's probably correct. (Not a hard thing to guess tho) The wierd thing is that they all show as Rank 1 (training multiplier 1) in the Eve-DB. Somehow I doubt that advanced learning skills are going to only be rank 1. I would expect at least rank 5 personally.
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.06.15 08:48:00 -
[4]
And they will probably cost 40 million each as did Research Project Management...
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Aitrus
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Posted - 2004.06.15 08:53:00 -
[5]
And I'll still buy them, as I did Research Project Management.
Training is going to get bloody expensive I think.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2004.06.15 08:53:00 -
[6]
Advanced willpower you'd be paid to accept.
Convert Stations
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.06.15 09:49:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Aitrus
The level 5 pre-reqs make sense, so that's probably correct. (Not a hard thing to guess tho) The wierd thing is that they all show as Rank 1 (training multiplier 1) in the Eve-DB. Somehow I doubt that advanced learning skills are going to only be rank 1. I would expect at least rank 5 personally.
That's correct, previously when I had looked in Eve-DB they were in as Rank 3...this has made me wonder.
Thanks for all of the comments so far.
The Sloth.
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Amin
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Posted - 2004.06.15 10:11:00 -
[8]
Although considering all the debate atm regarding the gulf between veteran and newbie characters, do you really think they'll introduce new learning skills that will allow experienced players to gain SP even faster? 
Drink StarsiÖ Relation Co-ordinator
Caldari State Citizen
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Mned Graydroggen
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Posted - 2004.06.15 10:13:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Does this suggest that these skills are just placeholders and that they are merely made up by the team at Eve Database?
Eve db uses the items list that is on in your eve folder somewhere(cnt remamber map name  )
Anyways. Many items not ingame yet have always been next in row to come ingam. CCP has added all stuff they intended on the cd, and I recon adds them with patches. Since these items where made up before final testing, the definate specs are only definate the moment the items get released.
So to answer your Q. No Eve-db doesnt make stuff up, but uses plaveholder info ccp added to the game folders from the start
hope I make sence :)
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.06.15 10:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Amin
Although considering all the debate atm regarding the gulf between veteran and newbie characters, do you really think they'll introduce new learning skills that will allow experienced players to gain SP even faster?
Valid Point. However, the way I look at it is that the skill point advantage that a Veteran player has over a n00bish player is not as severe as some players make out. This is due to the fact that despite the Veteran having more skill points than the n00b, the Veteran player usually has many skills trained to level 5. This skill training from level 4 to level 5 takes over 5 times as long to train the skill from nothing to level 4. So yes the Veteran player has more skill points, however the advantage these extra skills points give become less significant (ie. just another few % bonus for a significant investment in training time).
The reason why these advanced learning skills will help newer players comes from the fact that almost from creation these players will be able to learn most skills to level 4 at a faster rate than the Veterans ever could. This would enable these newer players to become competitive in areas like research, manufacturing and even combat in a shorter period of time.
These advanced learning skills whilst 'diminishing' the value of a Veteran players skill points, will also reward them by enabling them to train highly specialised skills with a big rank mulitplier (the existing ones and the ones that are still to be added) to a higher level much quicker.
As i said, this is just the way I look at it.
Regards,
The Sloth.
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.06.15 13:09:00 -
[11]
Will all that being said, Advanced Learning Skills will benifit both New Players and Veterans and there is a certainly a need for them as - new players have to spend months and months training to get even a basic proficiency anywhere near the skilled veterans; and the veterans need them for the soon to be onslaught of higher ranked skills
Originally by: Hardin
And they will probably cost 40 million each as did Research Project Management...
By doing this CCP will make it diffucult for new players to get them and so it will only further increase the skill point divide. However, if they were cheap and readily available to all players then it will be all of the citizens of Eve that benifit from these new skills, not just the new and certainly not just the old.
The Sloth.
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Toolbandfan
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Posted - 2004.06.15 13:36:00 -
[12]
Doesnt it make sense though that there is a large skill point gap between the newbie and veteran players? Why should a veteran player have to spend months to get where he/she is, while a newbie has to only spend a few weeks to get up to where the veteran player is? I'm a new player to the game, and I don't even agree with the idea of being able to quickly raise skills and be up there with the best players in the game. In my opinion the skill system is great the way it is. The fact that we don't have to grind like in other MMORPG's is a huge plus and makes waiting over a week just to raise one skill a level totally worth it.
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DHU InMe
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Posted - 2004.06.15 14:00:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Toolbandfan
Doesnt it make sense though that there is a large skill point gap between the newbie and veteran players? Why should a veteran player have to spend months to get where he/she is, while a newbie has to only spend a few weeks to get up to where the veteran player is? I'm a new player to the game, and I don't even agree with the idea of being able to quickly raise skills and be up there with the best players in the game. In my opinion the skill system is great the way it is. The fact that we don't have to grind like in other MMORPG's is a huge plus and makes waiting over a week just to raise one skill a level totally worth it.
I agree. Still a noob in 6 month to 12 month can get all usefull skill to lv4 wo trouble. Since a veteran taking a lot of time to train lv5 for a aditionnal 5% more point in gunnery or science...
Nice links (updated 20 Dec 04):
BP, bugs about them.
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.06.15 14:09:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Toolbandfan
Doesnt it make sense though that there is a large skill point gap between the newbie and veteran players? Why should a veteran player have to spend months to get where he/she is, while a newbie has to only spend a few weeks to get up to where the veteran player is? I'm a new player to the game, and I don't even agree with the idea of being able to quickly raise skills and be up there with the best players in the game. In my opinion the skill system is great the way it is. The fact that we don't have to grind like in other MMORPG's is a huge plus and makes waiting over a week just to raise one skill a level totally worth it.
With what I have suggested, new players will not be up there with the best players in the game - new players will never be able to be as both diverse & specialised as veteran players are (i.e. having multiple high rank level 5 skills) - rather it would give newer players some ability to compete with the veterans in certain areas. This, in reference to combat for example, would encourage more 'carebare n00bs' to PvP - an aspect most veterans want more of.
I agree with you on the fact that the training system is very good, however waiting one week to raise one skill one level soon becomes waiting many weeks to raise many higher ranked skills one level. As more skills, especially higher ranked skills are added to the game there is a more and more pressing need to add these advanced learning skills because if you are a new player it will involve months upon months of training to even access certain aspects of the game.
The Sloth.
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Dallenn
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Posted - 2004.06.15 16:41:00 -
[15]
Under 3 months, so I could be considered a new player. Yet I have learning skills to level 5, if advanced learning skills come I will buy one or two.
Nothing wrong with old players being way better. After all they have the full right to feel special after all those months :) Having to depend on other players also makes for good interaction.
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.06.17 06:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dallenn
Nothing wrong with old players being way better. After all they have the full right to feel special after all those months :) Having to depend on other players also makes for good interaction.
I agree that there is nothing wrong with old players being way better than newer players and with the release of the advanced learning skills they will still be. This is due to the fact that older players will benefit from generally having more ISK, more experience and what is more they will continue to have more skill points.
The point of my posts, I guess, is to highlight the fallacy that players will be disadvantaged by the release of advanced learning skills. As mentioned in my previous posts, the advanced learning skills will not be detrimental to anyone, they will only benifit all of Eve's citizens.
The Sloth.
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Miss
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Posted - 2004.06.18 04:33:00 -
[17]
I must admit that at first I thought that I would be disadvantaged by the addition of advanced learning skills, but now I can't wait for their release. I wonder what CCP think is a long enough wait for new players to access and become competitive in certain aspects of the game - 3 months?; a year?; never? Also with the the release of more skills to the game and higher requirements needed to use tech II gear, now would be a good time to release these advanced learning skills.
Love Miss
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Psy Corp
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Posted - 2004.06.18 07:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Amin
Although considering all the debate atm regarding the gulf between veteran and newbie characters, do you really think they'll introduce new learning skills that will allow experienced players to gain SP even faster?
who ******* cares ive played over a year a guy thats played 3 months SHOULD NOT be even close or im gonna get ****ed and leave 
I Have The Power Of The Mighty Lo.0lipop..
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Telnen Kahfir
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Posted - 2004.06.18 09:12:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Telnen Kahfir on 18/06/2004 09:14:31
Originally by: Psy Corp
who ******* cares ive played over a year a guy thats played 3 months SHOULD NOT be even close or im gonna get ****ed and leave
Imagine for a moment that you are a new player to Eve. You join a corporation and very quickly find that no matter how quickly you jump on your learning skills, you'll never ever come near the abilities of your corpmates. They think of you as a junior member, good only for light work and never bothering to give you anything meaty because there's always someone better at it. Wouldn't that be kind of discouraging?
Now, the way things are done now, a new player can very quickly become competitive, a useful member of a team or a dangerous opponent, but the older players will always have an edge. They will always be those little 5% betters.
[edited for spelling]
"Fly beyond the reaches of your own expectations. There you gain a measure of satisfaction." -- Jacques Altron, Gallente Philosopher |
fuze
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Posted - 2004.06.18 15:50:00 -
[20]
40M would bit a bit steep.
You only need to have it's previous skill trained to lvl5.
With Research Project Management you need 3 lvl 5 skills.
Same with Jump Drive and it's only 10M ISK.
20M per skill would be max I suppose. But it also would depend on costs for normal, advance and elite implants.
You could use these advance skills for certain barriers.
eg Juggernaut would require a certain amount of Willpower or Perception. And with usage of skills, advanced skills and implant you should be able to get to the minimum requirements. (tough luck if you loose an implant)
They might start using this for lvl 3 and beyond tech items as well.
But if these advance skills should kick they should have fixed the A+++ clones barrier of 24M SP I suppose.
Advanced clones? With the possibility to alter it geneticly in order to improve skillpoints as well. Needing huge sums of ISK as well risk loosing skillpoints or getting the Jovian disease.
My guess we'll not see this before the end of 106 or even 107.
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.06.18 16:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Psy Corp
who ******* cares ive played over a year a guy thats played 3 months SHOULD NOT be even close or im gonna get ****ed and leave
Psy Corp, a newer player will never be close to the amount of skill points a player like yourself, that has been playing for over a year will have (unless of course you go for months without training a skill). If you were to aquire the advanced learning skills, just like the new player, then you would be learning at [roughly] the same rate. The new player will not be able to 'catch' you.
These skills will not only help you learn new and existing skills faster, but will also enable newer players to be able to access certain aspects of the game alot quicker. As mentioned above, a new player, who can more quickly train their combat skills would encourage these tradionally 'carebear n00bs' into more PvP.
The Sloth.
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.06.18 17:09:00 -
[22]
You're are right they will never completely catch up but the advantage they will have is it would take them just 9 months to train the full set of skills a veteran (without advanced learning skills until now) has just spent a year training.
And as many people have pointed out the veteran will be training a few skills to level 5 - the smart noobie will be training a lot of their skills to level 4.
The noobie will never be quite as good as they veteran (purely on a skill point basis) but they will be so close it will make little practical difference - particularly if they specialise.
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.06.19 04:27:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hardin
You're are right they will never completely catch up but the advantage they will have is it would take them just 9 months to train the full set of skills a veteran (without advanced learning skills until now) has just spent a year training.
And as many people have pointed out the veteran will be training a few skills to level 5 - the smart noobie will be training a lot of their skills to level 4.
The noobie will never be quite as good as they veteran (purely on a skill point basis) but they will be so close it will make little practical difference - particularly if they specialise.
Agreed, however, surely there has to be a point in time where a 'n00b' shouldn't have to spend 9 months, a year, 2 years etc. to be able to be close in some aspects to that of a veteran player otherwise it will just discourage any new players to the game.
Also it is true that training a level 4 skill to level 5 only gives a few percent advantage, however the advantage the veterans have in already done this is the level 5 requirements of some skills, for example, to be able to use special ops frigates, interceptors, battlecruisers etc. This ability combined with the ability to use Tech II modules that require a higher skill proficiency is where the veteran's advantage of training skills to level 5 is - not the few bonus percent.
The Sloth.
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.06.20 04:15:00 -
[24]
Apart from the interesting debate that has occured on this thread so far, I would have thought that many more members of the Eve community would be more vocal with regards to this topic.
So do we want these advanced learning skills or not?
The Sloth.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2004.06.20 05:15:00 -
[25]
Quote:
So do we want these advanced learning skills or not?
Not yet.
MOOrovingian  "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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digitalwanderer
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Posted - 2004.06.20 21:39:00 -
[26]
Personally,i¦d like to have those advanced learning skills Asap,not so much for the improvement of skill training times when used in combination with implants,but rather,not being so dependant on those same implants to still be able to learn skills at a decent rate...
Have those advanced skills,once trained up,should provide the same skill training speed on their own as someone that only has the standard ones to lvl 5,but with the use of basic implants for instance...
My main point is that there are very few players out there that are training every skill under the sun,and a lot of those older players out there are simply training skills to lvl 5,not because they¦re actually worth the time,but it¦s rather because of the lack of more usefull skills within their field,wich aren¦t out yet...
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