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If I didn't pay for it, it's free, right?

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Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.15 15:38:00 - [1] Sad to say that most people believe that 'if I mine/loot it, it's free.' Unfortunately, this is echoed in RL by financial reporters here. My question as it relates to the Eve market: does this echo the same mentality and if so which came first? Is this a trend monetarily? Do we view our time/resources available to us as 'free' in-game as well as RL? discuss. Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
iskopoly Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.09.15 16:24:00 - [2] Time = ISK . It is all about the ISK
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.15 17:11:00 - [3] Originally by: iskopoly Time = ISK Agreed, but why the lack of perceived value? I used to think it was laziness or ignorance, but now I'm not so certain...
iskopoly Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.09.15 17:16:00 - [4] i just think there are a lot of dumb pilots as well as people who value their time differently. i think this is all good for an economy though . It is all about the ISK
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.15 17:29:00 - [5] Originally by: iskopoly i just think there are a lot of dumb pilots as well as people who value their time differently. Yes, but 'free' = 0 value And I happen to think it is not healthy for an economy, personally.
Auri Hella Downwind Trading Guild	Posted - 2008.09.15 17:42:00 - [6] Originally by: iskopoly i just think there are a lot of dumb pilots I agree. But no reason to do anything about it, these players earn me (and I think a lot of people here) quite a bit of money. I really love them
iskopoly Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.09.15 17:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Auri Hella Originally by: iskopoly i just think there are a lot of dumb pilots I agree. But no reason to do anything about it, these players earn me (and I think a lot of people here) quite a bit of money. I really love them this comment should prove my point that it is actually good for the economy if you are a smart player. meaning it provides opportunity for players to profit. how is this no good for the economy ? . It is all about the ISK
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.15 17:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Auri Hella Originally by: iskopoly i just think there are a lot of dumb pilots I agree. But no reason to do anything about it, these players earn me (and I think a lot of people here) quite a bit of money. I really love them OK, I'll agree that there's a lot of dumb pilots... but read the blog, please. The point is... is this a trend specific to MMO's? Is it ignorance translated into pixels? Would you sell a garden of fruit and vegetables for a mere $20? Does that devaluation translate to a weaker economy overall? Are my boxers to tight today?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.15 17:53:00 - [9] Originally by: iskopoly meaning it provides opportunity for players to profit. how is this no good for the economy ? I think the point is similar to one that is common for most predators. It takes a strong and wide food chain to support really powerful and effective predators. Thus the more sheople that play Eve, the more food for us predators. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.15 18:00:00 - [10] Originally by: iskopoly Originally by: Auri Hella Originally by: iskopoly i just think there are a lot of dumb pilots I agree. But no reason to do anything about it, these players earn me (and I think a lot of people here) quite a bit of money. I really love them this comment should prove my point that it is actually good for the economy if you are a smart player. meaning it provides opportunity for players to profit. how is this no good for the economy ? Actually, I believe it causes devaluation of commodities, which isn't good for any economy. What about the wholesalers who usually depend on that small business as part of their total sales? Now they don't need their veggies cause Ma Plunkett just sold them all of hers for less than they could possibly match. Where do they recoup that revenue? Chances are the wholesaler will either lower prices (if able) and cut their overall margin, or change strategies (IF they're diversified enough).
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.15 18:03:00 - [11] Edited by: Chomin H''ak on 15/09/2008 18:03:22 Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: iskopoly meaning it provides opportunity for players to profit. how is this no good for the economy ? I think the point is similar to one that is common for most predators. It takes a strong and wide food chain to support really powerful and effective predators. Thus the more sheople that play Eve, the more food for us predators. OK, so good for Eve, bad for RL? Do the 2 not translate the same? Oh yeah, o/ Shar! Edit: Sheople cracked me up
Auri Hella Downwind Trading Guild	Posted - 2008.09.15 18:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Chomin H'ak Where do they recoup that revenue? Chances are the wholesaler will either lower prices (if able) and cut their overall margin, or change strategies (IF they're diversified enough). Simple really. Buy all the underpriced product the it's-free-if-I-mine-it-myself people sell, and relist it at a proper price. Easier profit is hard to come by. I'm surprised you even need to ask.
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.15 18:09:00 - [13] Edited by: Chomin H''ak on 15/09/2008 18:13:30 Originally by: Auri Hella Originally by: Chomin H'ak Where do they recoup that revenue? Chances are the wholesaler will either lower prices (if able) and cut their overall margin, or change strategies (IF they're diversified enough). Simple really. Buy all the underpriced product the it's-free-if-I-mine-it-myself people sell, and relist it at a proper price. Easier profit is hard to come by. I'm surprised you even need to ask. Obviously, you didn't read the blog... How does the wholesaler know Ma Kettle's bringing in her prized potatoes to trade for a pint? Edit: In Eve, I buy everything under mineral value that's on the boards. This would be an example of pre-market order, I believe. Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.15 18:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Chomin H'ak OK, so good for Eve, bad for RL? Do the 2 not translate the same? Oh I did not say which philosophy I subscribed to mate. I just detailed the finer points of the above. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Manalapan Dynasty Banking	Posted - 2008.09.15 18:25:00 - [15] Edited by: Manalapan on 15/09/2008 18:26:20 The issue is that most people do not realize that minerals they mine are worth something. Most players that make ships just want to say they make ships even though they could be making more isk if they sold the minerals they mined. This is really an explanation of Opportunity Cost. This is also very bad for the game economy because if they have no perceived value to their minerals they will lower their prices (Deflation). Which is bad for the overall economic growth and progression which is towards a level of Inflation. The more people that play the game the more money enters into the economy but the prices don't follow the trend of the money supply. If this did not happen we would see the financial market boom because the price trend and money supply changes would be similar which makes investment, banking, and futures more possible and probable. This does not happen because the current way most players in the market operate. Dynasty Banking
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.15 18:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Manalapan good stuffs I'm personally not an economist. I only have rudimentary understanding from my experiences and gleamed only a small amount of terminology from reading the hell out of the MD forum and various other links/pages. I know what I mean, but it's hard to verbalize my thoughts. Way to translate, Manalapan!
Snasty	Posted - 2008.09.15 18:56:00 - [17] But what if goods created are a by-product of a hobby, in RL my partner makes and sells handmade cards and I'm always on at her to do a proper costing. "If you dont know how much they cost to make how do you know how much to charge?" "I dont care how much they cost to make, its a hobby, if it costs me a few quid thats fine, a hobby is supposed to" Now, is she wrong? ...and if Eve goods are created as a by product of a fun group activity, a mining group and producton operation, or mission running and loot generation, does the same not apply. Perhaps people are not stupid, they just have a different value on time than you or I do?
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.15 19:30:00 - [18] Wot, no Treelox in this thread?! Basically as Manalaplan said, it's about Opportunity Cost (ie what it's worth if you sold it) being accounted for in future production. If you don't take the opportunity of maximising your profit, a predator as Shar said will take that opportunity for you, thus while you don't lose money, you've lost potential profits. And because you don't lose money and you don't realise you could have made more money by thinking about it, you don't think it's necessarily bad, but it is. On a larger scale, unfortunately, there are always fewer predators than prey. It's nature. Because they aren't capitalising on all the opportunities, the market gets deflated. But in the process of cannibalizing the opportunity, the product's price can fall below the cost basis of the product and can but not always lead to deflation, thus legitimate producers who are minding their cents can't remain competitive, and the product slowly goes into the doldrums as it just isn't cost effective to produce. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.15 19:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Mr Horizontal Wot, no Treelox in this thread?! I saw it the moment it was posted, but failed to see the relvance to the OP's post and the linked article. Since the article talks about a barter system, not valuation of ones own goods as free. --
Snasty	Posted - 2008.09.15 19:39:00 - [20] Originally by: Mr Horizontal On a larger scale, unfortunately, there are always fewer predators than prey. It's nature. Because they aren't capitalising on all the opportunities, the market gets deflated. But in the process of cannibalizing the opportunity, the product's price can fall below the cost basis of the product and can but not always lead to deflation, thus legitimate producers who are minding their cents can't remain competitive, and the product slowly goes into the doldrums as it just isn't cost effective to produce. I'm no trader in RL, but if I understand you correctly you are saying that people selling, regardless of what value they place on production or gaining the item have a sort of responsibility to get the max return for the greater good of the market in general? I had not considered it on that basis, but were I to put that argument to my partner relating to her cards I can see her not being very interested in the well being of Hallmark, Clinton etc In an MMO however I am interested in the well being of most things as most things concern me one way or another? Hmm, food for thought.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.15 19:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Snasty I'm no trader in RL, but if I understand you correctly you are saying that people selling, regardless of what value they place on production or gaining the item have a sort of responsibility to get the max return for the greater good of the market in general? Yes, essentially you have a responsibility to be as greedy as you possibly can. Then when everyones eating from and feeding to the same trough, all is well Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.15 20:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Snasty I'm no trader in RL, but if I understand you correctly you are saying that people selling, regardless of what value they place on production or gaining the item have a sort of responsibility to get the max return for the greater good of the market in general? Originally by: Mr Horizontal Yes, essentially you have a responsibility to be as greedy as you possibly can. Then when everyones eating from and feeding to the same trough, all is well I would also reinforce Mr H's point here but I see it from my randian influences. (Randy influences is my genetics!) When everyone in the marketplace is seeking their own self interest, there in lies commonality of purpose. If a person is undervaluing themselves - it is not woohoo great I've got a chance or opportunity. It is still a sad thing no matter how much of a fleeting benefit I get from it right now. Undervaluing one's self, in relation to the market and/or society, is the biggest failing of all. This is why education and intellect are key ingredients to healthy interactions. And to a healthy market. For Eve Application: I'd rather everyone was smart and aggressive in their market activities. I try not to profit from idiocy. (I loathe idiocy as well) I think that far too many people profit, undeservedly, due to other's ignorance or errors. If people acted with more intelligence a lot of bottom feeders would sink to the bottom and people who don't prey on such lapses of judgment; people who actually make things and do things; might hold a better place than they currently do. Of course I can see a few people about to break out violins to play for me the notes of my pity song above... oh well. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Snasty	Posted - 2008.09.15 20:32:00 - [23] God now I'm depressed. I did not realise that by undervaluing my goods I was undervaluing myself :-)
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.15 20:57:00 - [24] Originally by: Snasty I did not realise that by undervaluing my goods I was undervaluing myself :-) If you lower the value of your goods of your own free will and for your own enlightened self interest, nope. Not at all. PS: If you hadn't noticed I'm very pro-choice about all facets of life. (politics aside) To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.15 21:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Treelox I saw it the moment it was posted, but failed to see the relvance to the OP's post and the linked article. That would be the final (STUPID) remark of the article's author... "It costs you nothing as a customer and you get something in return." _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.15 21:26:00 - [26] For those of you who under value your product, do you do so because you believe mining is free or do you do so because you're trying to sell your product fast?
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.15 21:49:00 - [27] If I valued my time in-game the way I do in real life, and converted that to ISK using GTC, any activity that makes me less than 200m ISK per hour isn't worth my time. Obviously, that's not the way I play. I play the game because it amuses me, if my only goal was getting rich I'd just buy GTCs to sell. So, is it so strange that some people undervalue their play time?
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.09.15 21:52:00 - [28] Opportunity cost.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.15 21:58:00 - [29] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome So, is it so strange that some people undervalue their play time? I only hope you realize that I am not saying people should play, or price, a certain way. Again, I'm simply about choice and the protection for people to have the choice to do things the way they want to do them. Of course I can only hope you'll allow me an opinion, not often expressed, about the behaviors as well. =) To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Cor Aidan KNIGHT'S OF THE ROUND ROOM ReZZerecteD AlckemisTs	Posted - 2008.09.15 21:59:00 - [30] Surprisingly enough, certain economic situations do not apply in EVE as they do elsewhere. Consider: Inflation. Inflation is only really bad for lenders in a typical economy since they are paid back with currency with reduced worth. Conversely, deflation hurts borrowers, because they must pay back a fixed monetary value with increasingly valuable currency. However, for those that do not lend and do not borrow, inflation and deflation are meaningless because prices and wages move together. EVE does not really have debt markets* so it is largely immune from these effects of inflation. If prices increase but wages do not it is not strictly inflation: this is simply increased demand or reduced supply (reduction in standard of living). If prices fall but wages do not, this is simply a reduction in demand or increase in supply (increased standard of living). I would argue that regardless of the people in EVE who claim that minerals are free, we experience a rare economy that is always increasing in standard of living: increases in wealth occur faster than increases in effort required to obtain that wealth. *I realize that people here in MD create a 'secondary market' of IPOs and things which resemble debt markets, but there is really no fundamental mechanism of debt in the EVE universe except for buying more than you have isk cover using certain market skills. This is because there is no mechanism in the EVE universe which can act as a repo agency to collect goods produced by those who have defaulted on their debts. While bad for those who lend funds without getting them back, the lack of consequence for the 'borrowers' (usually called scammers) means that there is really no such thing as 'debt'.

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