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TQ Rail Bug: Optimal and Falloff graph is inverted

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Garramon	Posted - 2004.06.16 05:49:00 - [1] I(Megathron) had my buddy(Megathron) start out at 15km, and shot with my 425 rails as he moved straight away from me. At Optimal range (30km with AM), I finally started hitting, but low hits. The damage increased as he got further away. It peaked at about 57km...which just so happens to be my Optimal+Falloff. After about 5km more, I couldn't hit him once again. Therefore, it appears as if the math calculating the dmg is inverted from the proposed graph. I have not tried this with any other rails. Could someone please test and verify. ------------------------------------------------
Ripp Tyde	Posted - 2004.06.16 07:43:00 - [2] i hafta agree the 425s have become useless!! at ranges below optimal never hit once. at optimal very few hits and for weak damage at about 45km 200+ was my max. these r all against BS. The hit % and damage has been fubar'd please fix it. i just finally got my scorp yesterday befor patch and was loving the damage i was getting made training and paying for such a big gun worth it. now i feel as tho it has all been a wast of time. Ripp Tyde F.R.E.E.E. DingleBerry Bear
Strikeman	Posted - 2004.06.16 08:19:00 - [3] Garramon, I have tested the same thing and have come to the same conclusion. I could not hit anything with Antimatter, only with Iridium and only at ranges way over 60km. It does appear that there's a bug in the rails; this stuff is pretty annoying when you're killing a Sansha's Lord at 80km and his little companions fly to you at 2+km/sec; I can't land 1 shot on them and had to rely on my torp-firing buddy in his scorp to kill the small once. this DESPERATELY needs fixing CCP; this is a MAJOR bug/problem -- NAGAmazon webshop ISK is not your goal.
Chepe Nolon	Posted - 2004.06.16 08:26:00 - [4] This makes sense. I started at optimal (30.3km with AM L) and started moving away from my target, and I started to hit better an better until I hit optimal+falloff. Withing optimal-falloff I hit nothing but thin air, even with a good med-slot tracking computer online and activated.
Kildarin Farushna	Posted - 2004.06.16 08:31:00 - [5] tracking computers, try installing tracking computers.... ____ ->Lawless<- >>>New Formula<<< >>In your local 0.4 system soon<<
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2004.06.16 08:39:00 - [6] Actually it has less to do with the guns and more to do with people's piloting. You also need to open up your autoscanner to show you the radial and transversal velocities. With 425's I could hit moving frigs at distances as low as 13km with Plutonium L ammo. You just have to figure out the max transversal speed your turrets can hit at and manuever your ship to accomodate that. (Think ships from the 18th century with cannons on the sides for this) It's all about positioning your ship and playing the angles. It will be easier to hit a farther distances. However this has nothing to do with your Optimal range. Optimal range is the distance at which your dmg modifier is highest. If you are using Antimatter, you are borderlining with your tracking ability to get you optimal. However if you switch to Lead or Thorium, you will be well within your gun's optimal range. You will also hit farther out too. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
Chepe Nolon	Posted - 2004.06.16 08:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Marcus Grisbius Actually it has less to do with the guns and more to do with people's piloting. You also need to open up your autoscanner to show you the radial and transversal velocities. With 425's I could hit moving frigs at distances as low as 13km with Plutonium L ammo. You just have to figure out the max transversal speed your turrets can hit at and manuever your ship to accomodate that. (Think ships from the 18th century with cannons on the sides for this) It's all about positioning your ship and playing the angles. It will be easier to hit a farther distances. However this has nothing to do with your Optimal range. Optimal range is the distance at which your dmg modifier is highest. If you are using Antimatter, you are borderlining with your tracking ability to get you optimal. However if you switch to Lead or Thorium, you will be well within your gun's optimal range. You will also hit farther out too. I think I will try thorium (or other ammo) once again, and see if you are right. According to the devblogs, you should hit best at optimal (not just most damage) and less at optimal+falloff. At ranges less than optimal, tracking should count more and more the closer the range gets. But your post makes more sense. Why should am ammo make the turret track better? There should be two optimal ranges defined on the turret. One for damage and one for the breakpoint in range (ie where there is no use going further away for better hits). Or just making optimal range the middle of those two optimal ranges. Btw I think they tried hitting targets that stood still. Tracking should have anything to do here.
Strikeman	Posted - 2004.06.16 09:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Marcus Grisbius Actually it has less to do with the guns and more to do with people's piloting. You also need to open up your autoscanner to show you the radial and transversal velocities. With 425's I could hit moving frigs at distances as low as 13km with Plutonium L ammo. You just have to figure out the max transversal speed your turrets can hit at and manuever your ship to accomodate that. (Think ships from the 18th century with cannons on the sides for this) It's all about positioning your ship and playing the angles. It will be easier to hit a farther distances. However this has nothing to do with your Optimal range. Optimal range is the distance at which your dmg modifier is highest. If you are using Antimatter, you are borderlining with your tracking ability to get you optimal. However if you switch to Lead or Thorium, you will be well within your gun's optimal range. You will also hit farther out too. just accept that there's a bug atm; adapt, no prob, but when it's fixed it'll work again. also, OFCOURSE we're using (t2) tracking comps men, no noobs here ... -- NAGAmazon webshop ISK is not your goal.
Chepe Nolon	Posted - 2004.06.16 10:01:00 - [9] Originally by: Strikeman just accept that there's a bug atm; adapt, no prob, but when it's fixed it'll work again. also, OFCOURSE we're using (t2) tracking comps men, no noobs here ... Adapting for temp. bugs is expensive in the long run. Buying 6-7 Dual 250mm or the new 300mm will cost a bit too much if this is considered a bug and changed so 425mm (and 1400mm) hit a bit more.
Garramon	Posted - 2004.06.16 12:07:00 - [10] Originally by: Kildarin Farushna tracking computers, try installing tracking computers.... I had a mid-slot tracking comp on. This is not a tracking issue. Both ships were megathrons, and neither were moving. Accept that this bug exists would ya! ------------------------------------------------
Jim Bond	Posted - 2004.06.16 13:56:00 - [11] Yes ive got to agree, ive got 5 tracking enhancer2s on and im doing full dmg at 45-75km with antimatter ammo, under 45km i cant hit anything. This pretty sucks as am is supposed to be close range ammo.
Phaethon	Posted - 2004.06.16 15:48:00 - [12] From my testing yesterday vs npc cruisers, it seem the bug also affects blasters. Setup was a Megathronwith Ion cannons and a t2 tracking comp. gallente bs lvl4 large hybrids lvl4 all other relevant gunnery skills at lvl4. Ammo: AM Below 3,5km (optimal) I couldn't hit anything 5-10 km weak to mediocre dmg between 10 and 15km I was wrecking for 700+ 15-20 lot's of misses and a few wreckings. Biggest change for me was that I actually made it through 720 (120*6) rounds of ammo while killing about 30 cruisers. I also experienced a gun lockup while testing auto reload. I can't say for sure why but this is approx what I did. Warp to target Press F1 to target the five cruisers in space. Not using scanner. All guns has 2-5 rounds in them. full load of ammo in cargo. Guns start firing on the first cruiser and one of the guns go dry and starts reloading (flashing icon) While gun1 reloads the other guns kill the cruiser, and 2-6 deactivate, ready for next target. Gun1 does not reload, but keeps flashing until I dock I'm pretty sure this bug has been there before, a few months ago and that it was related to activating and possibly deactivating the guns with no target locked. So it's not 100% certain it has to do with the new autoreload function. WTB. Infifitrator I drones
Drogos	Posted - 2004.06.16 16:03:00 - [13] Some testing by myself and corpmates last night bear Garramon's theory out. Oveur, Eight, Hellmar... someone... Fix this! -=-=-=-=-=-=- Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated. -Sun Tzu
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2004.06.16 17:18:00 - [14] Actually I dont think it's a bug. If you read the dev blog on the tracking changes it's pretty clear that if you exceed the turrets tracking speed you will not be able to hit at all. Previously you still had a % chance of hitting. With the new formula it works more like it should work. You can figure out the max speeds your turrets can hit by calculating your turrets tracking stats. This requires a little bit of math skills to be applied. The damage formula also figures in a base sig resolution on the gun. For the 425's it's 400 and 250's it's 200. This is comparable to the sig radius of the ship classes, 400 being average for bships, 200 being average for cruisers. So at a speed within your turret tracking speed you will be roughly half as likely to hit a cruiser for the same amount of damage as a battleship. Above tracking speed you wont hit at all. I did the calculations on the tracking speed for my skills and figured out the transversal velocity max for my guns and I've been hitting as the guns are described. It requires more involvement than 'Orbit' 'F1-F8' but it still works. I'm not exactly sure how the formula figures the standing still testing but I know that standing still pre-patch firing on stations, you would miss from time to time. All in all it's not a bug, it's actually working in line with what the devs had said it would. There may be some minor tweaking here and there but I wouldn't expect anything significant to change. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
geewiz	Posted - 2004.06.16 17:20:00 - [15] Yep, I also completely agree with Garramon's comments above, the 425mm on my mega have been rendered useless i sat at 25-30km with AM fitted and fired at 2 Moas for 5 mins and managed to do them 25% damage had to deploy my drones to kill them which is laughable. I know the damage of large hybrids has been reduced against cruisers but frankly this is a joke. Please sort it. geewiz
Turyleon Caddarn	Posted - 2004.06.16 17:31:00 - [16] AHA!! that is the problem.. iw as trying to determine why i couldnt shoot a cruiser in my battleship, both were travelling 0m/s, but for some reason, even at my exact optimal range i was not hitting very often... getting closer didnt help, but getting further away did, this cant be a tracking issue, as in my test, both ships were completely stationary :) this needs to be fixed... any close range ships could own me atm o.O "I know this game, it's called Cat and Mouse. There's only one way to win......... Don't be the mouse."
GardenerOfEden	Posted - 2004.06.17 03:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Marcus Grisbius Actually I dont think it's a bug. If you read the dev blog on the tracking changes it's pretty clear that if you exceed the turrets tracking speed you will not be able to hit at all. Previously you still had a % chance of hitting. With the new formula it works more like it should work. ... All in all it's not a bug, it's actually working in line with what the devs had said it would. There may be some minor tweaking here and there but I wouldn't expect anything significant to change. Indeed but the concern I have is with the Dev Blog explanation is where the new graph dips under the old graph at longer sniper range ie where the distance would otherwise help the tracking of your ship's turrets to catch up with the target ... EVE is a massive social experiment of human interaction facilitated by computer technology
LiNkIsMaXiMuS	Posted - 2004.06.17 03:39:00 - [18] If any1 knows the formulas about this new tracking and tranversal velocities and stuff which i dont get plz post it so i can furthur understand thses tracking changes.....
Kaito'Li	Posted - 2004.06.17 07:32:00 - [19] 425mm is a long range weapon used for long range fighting. Nuff said. Confucius he say, "Bugger this, I'm off for a beer"
Chepe Nolon	Posted - 2004.06.17 07:45:00 - [20] Is it just me, or do others feel that the tracking issue with guns requires more math-knowledge than the average player has? Fair enough that more speed (rad/s) is better for hitting orbiting items. But the calculation of breakpoints for transversal velocity, vs tracking speed, signatures etc starts to be a bit complex for my liking. How about a meter at the side of each target that shows the probability in percent (or 1 to 10 or whatever) of a hit when the mouse hovers over the different guns? Or just a number blinking under the target. I tried yesterday with neutron blasters (ok, they are the slowest large blaster, but anyway) and it worked webing the rats, using a tracking enhancher II and a named tracking computer I (can't use tracking computer II yet). It worked ok, but it's even more difficult keeping optimal than shooting with rails. I ended up releasing drones when I met two Guardian Initiates. They cut one into scrapmetal before I even got down to armour on the other. So I guess I will build myself a domi once again while I wait for a statement if this should stay or be tweaked a bit.
Periclese	Posted - 2004.06.17 09:16:00 - [21] 280mm Howitzers have optimal range listed as 10,000m and falloff listed as 7,500m. That can' be correct can it? Maybe a seperate bug, I presume rail guns are still listed correctly? Sounds like a generic problem with projectiles. Cheers.
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.06.17 09:34:00 - [22] Originally by: Periclese 280mm Howitzers have optimal range listed as 10,000m and falloff listed as 7,500m. That can' be correct can it? Maybe a seperate bug, I presume rail guns are still listed correctly? Sounds like a generic problem with projectiles. Cheers. What exactly is the problem with that, falloff is added onto optimal. which means you should have about a 50% change to hit another cruiser at 17.5kms out (optimal+falloff) and about a 100% change at 10km and below 10km it depends on tracking alone whether or not you hit. For the rest of you. 425s are LONG LONG LONG range turrets, which hit well at around their optimal, they do not have the tracking to be able to shove in antimatter and use em at 20-30km to hit fast( and I think there is a problem atm with the to hit formula taking transversal velocity into acount to severly ) targets. If you're fighting at those kind of ranges use turrets that are made for those kind of ranges, not turrets that are designed for 60km+ ranges. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.06.17 09:37:00 - [23] First: yes there seems to be a bug where you hit better beyond falloff range then between falloff and optimal. Having nothing to do with tracking as targets are stationary. Secondly, yes 425 rails are THE long range gun on TQ and always were (highest optimal). Make bookmarks, fill up with 3-4 tracking mods in low and use iridium at 100km-120km (optimal range). You WILL hit there without trouble, unless there are more bugs involved. At those ranges tracking cannot have an inluence on accuracy any longer unless transversal speed is very high. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Kinnison	Posted - 2004.06.17 09:53:00 - [24] I'm having the same problem with 250 rails. Before patch, with iridium I was getting 80+ hits at 40km. After patch, range seems to have decreased to about 30km and damage hovers around 50-60. I haven't tried fighting with rails at 5km, but it makes sense that it doesn't work. Can someone explain this to me please? Pretty please?
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.06.17 09:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Kinnison I'm having the same problem with 250 rails. Before patch, with iridium I was getting 80+ hits at 40km. After patch, range seems to have decreased to about 30km and damage hovers around 50-60. I haven't tried fighting with rails at 5km, but it makes sense that it doesn't work. Can someone explain this to me please? Pretty please? I'm assuming this is against NPCs which have had their defenses upped by quite a bit which would explain the lessened damage. And don't try, it won't work. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
geewiz	Posted - 2004.06.17 10:14:00 - [26] If the "425mm is a long range weapon used for long range fighting" why does AM have an optimal range of 30km?? Fair enough if this was not the case, the original posting was about the damage been seemingly inverted from the graph which as a number of people have demonstrated would seem to be the case. Appreciate we have to adapt to new models for guns but the original point is still vaild IMO. Gee
Dispader	Posted - 2004.06.17 17:13:00 - [27] All you "there's no bug here, there's no bug here, install 5 tracking computers, long range guns" etc. Take it and shove it. There's a bug, pls get off the frickin' high horse.
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2004.06.17 19:17:00 - [28] It takes a little math but it's not too complicated. Basically to figure out the MAXIMUM Transversal Speed (horizontal speed) at which your guns can track use this equation Max Spd = Range * Gun Tracking Modifier For a 425 Rail (base stats) Max Spd at 30km is as follows: Max Spd = 30,000 * 0.006 = 180 m/s 250mm rail at 30km is as follows: Max Spd = 30,000 * 0.015 = 450 m/s That's the fastest target you can be able to hit. However each turret size has it's own sig resolution. A 425 has one of 400m, which means it's designed to hit battleships. To hit a cruiser which has a sig radius of 200m you would divide the Max Trans Velocity by 2. Thus making the max velocity of a cruiser 90m/s at 30km and for a frig it's 45m/s Doing the same with a 250mm (which has a 200 sig resolution) would result in a standard 450m/s against cruisers but all the way up to 900m/s against bships. Frigs would be down to 225m/s. You can see the benefit of higher tracking. This is the maximum. You will get fewer hits and hits for less damage as you get closer to the maximum. You will get the best hits at a near 0 trans velocity. This doesnt mean that the object must be standing still. You can maneuver your ship to make it be relatively still for you to hit. This may mean that you have to slow down or speed up to engage enemies and adjust on the fly to they're responses. The optimal range of the ammo is a completely different matter. It determines the range at which you could make the most damage on a stationary target. The tracking function determine what percentage of that damage you will receive. So even if you are at the optimal range for the ammo, you may only get a 2% hit because the ship is going too fast for your tracking. Falloff works similar to a bell curve allowing for a more gradual falloff as opposed to before. Large guns are going to be good for 2 things, bships and stations. Medium guns will be best for cruisers and assisting with destroying bships or destroyers. Frigs will destroy other frigs and assist with hitting cruisers. Destroyers will the wipe the floor of frigs. It is still possible to hit anything with any gun though, it just requires the situation to be right for the hit to land. There is no bug. Only math. Once you get the math you'll be fine. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
PASTOR TROY	Posted - 2004.06.17 20:46:00 - [29] Quote: Basically to figure out the MAXIMUM Transversal Speed (horizontal speed) at which your guns can track use this equation Max Spd = Range * Gun Tracking Modifier For a 425 Rail (base stats) Max Spd at 30km is as follows: Max Spd = 30,000 * 0.006 = 180 m/s 250mm rail at 30km is as follows: Max Spd = 30,000 * 0.015 = 450 m/s That's the fastest target you can be able to hit. However each turret size has it's own sig resolution. A 425 has one of 400m, which means it's designed to hit battleships. To hit a cruiser which has a sig radius of 200m you would divide the Max Trans Velocity by 2. Thus making the max velocity of a cruiser 90m/s at 30km and for a frig it's 45m/s Doing the same with a 250mm (which has a 200 sig resolution) would result in a standard 450m/s against cruisers but all the way up to 900m/s against bships. Frigs would be down to 225m/s. You can see the benefit of higher tracking. This is the maximum. You will get fewer hits and hits for less damage as you get closer to the maximum. You will get the best hits at a near 0 trans velocity. This doesnt mean that the object must be standing still. You can maneuver your ship to make it be relatively still for you to hit. This may mean that you have to slow down or speed up to engage enemies and adjust on the fly to they're responses. I never was never good at math so lets see if i got this right... so basically in this situation .. If im fighting someone in a bs and they acheive a speed of lets say 400m/s using afterburners at the 30km range then I will never hit them with a turret even though they are in my optimum range because my 425rail wont track fast enough. In conclusion I should sell my 425's.. buy 250's.. build alot of drones and train to use a raven because missiles dont miss. Ok. thanks for the info... Thanks again CCP... wasn't like I trained a long time or anything to get my mega working properly. :-\
Doc Brown	Posted - 2004.06.17 23:23:00 - [30] Edited by: Doc Brown on 17/06/2004 23:25:16 I just did some testing with 425 rails + Antimatter ammo (34,500 optimal; 28,800 falloff; 0.0066 tracking). My target was the always deadly and dangerous "Cache Container" At Optimal + Fall off (max range) = 63km 20 out of 40 hit for varying damages (ship was stationary) At Optimal 10 out of 10 hit At 1/2 Optimal 8 out of 9 hit When I was at 1/2 optimal (15 km) I started flying my ship on about a 45degree angle of attack away from the Cache Container. Once my ship started doing over 80m/s all my shots missed. No hits while flying away from 15km to ~27km (0 hits out of 23 shots) The leason learned: Keep your ship stoped if you want to hit anything. Finally, if Cache Containers are not a vaild test target please tell me why. _________________________________________________ There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations.

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