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[Proposal] Inclusion of 'RP' alliances into FW

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Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.09.27 17:19:00 - [61] Originally by: Pithecanthropus There's no need. Alliances, whether they roleplay or not, are too powerful and too wealthy to be a part of what CCP wants to be the PVP training grounds. The idea is for hi-sec people to experience pvp in a secluded area, with a variety of ship types. And to then get interested in 0.0 to eventually move out there, or move to low sec. It's simply not designed to allow alliances to partake. Now you may say that you're a tiny rp alliance, but that doesn't mean large pvp alliances won't join up and turn FW into capital wars. Even if you set a high standing to lessen the chances of larger alliances joining, you are still setting a precedent for them to do so, and kill FW. There's a lot that people can and can't do in this game, keeping alliances out of FW is just another one. I feel sorry for you... but the big picture of alliances with FW is very unhealthy. Perhaps disbanding into one large corp is your best option... and well, very doable I might add. Consider the wide variety of players who do their own specific racial missions... who is to say in an alliance what faction they will go for or against? You could literally sit in an alliance with 1000 people and watch your standings drop to a faction that you worked so hard for by doing nothing. Alliances bring too many cans of worms... keep them out. period. So your entire argument is that the alliances wanting to join should disband the alliance and form a large corporation. How does this change the powerful & wealthy part? Your 4th paragraph describes one of the reasons large 'neutral' 0.0 alliances won't get involved. BoB/RzR/Tri aren't going to jump in if it requires the entire alliance to have a high standing with anyone of the Empires for the very reason you describe - it will drop the standings of the members with good standings to other Empires. If the players you say will be affected care about that change they will leave the alliance; thus decreasing its power and wealth. Founder Heiian Society
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.09.29 10:23:00 - [62] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 29/09/2008 10:25:37 I am less worried by these proposed changes than some of my militia counterparts, but still cautious about them. We already have an element of blob warfare at times, even some occasional POS warfare, and for the most part those that can't stand that form of warfare steer well clear and fight somewhere else, but it's still not a trend to be encouraged. Unfortunately if the enemy tactics are entirely blob-based, you end up being forced into that mode of warfare, and I do know that quite a few in the Amarr militia have expressed distaste for capital warfare, blobs, left 0.0 combat for that reason, and have no desire for its return. I object to this notion that FW is 'PvP with training wheels'. It isn't, but it does have newer players trying it, and that is a good thing. What it is however is a sec-hit-free, no SP limit, easy way to find quick fights in low-sec, close to a high-sec base of operations and learn about PvP. If I was going to attribute a reason for the reduced militia participation recently it's that the combat used to be a lot more small-gang and roaming, and people actually committing to fights they might not win; lately I have noted a trend of larger and larger fleets, and often said fleets run at the sight of an even-remotely similar force. Fighting huge battles with 80-100+ ships is dull, laggy, often has capitals, and has no real way for the individual's skills, player or otherwise, to make any difference. FW encourages, nay requires, small T1 ships like frigates and destroyers. How can they operate when someone hot-drops a carrier fleet on them? Let us not forget that FW is in low-sec and for many it was hoped to be the return of the roaming small gang, but on a larger scale. I can see a benefit from large alliances joining FW if they provided funding and support to the militia beyond direct military intervention, as the biggest criticism by those new to PvP is that funding PvP is expensive when the enemy keeps fielding carriers and battleships. Somehow I don't see the alliance coffers or resources being made available though. I would strongly argue for the operating area of Factional Warfare being increased if larger alliances can participate, to reduce the chances of one large pair of fleets dominating the battlefield. At present there are only a few ways into the Amarr theatre of operation - I have zero desire to end up with a circumstance where a large alliance decides to blockade those few entry points with hundreds of ships. I don't feel I've been won over by the arguments enough yet to see why we'd want large organised capital-backed alliance fleets versus somewhat slapdash militia fleets because the militia pilots have less SP, less ISK, fewer numbers, and aren't as used to fighting alongside each other. Any hope of the trend of more people trying PvP and actually considering more active roles in low-sec or 0.0 would very likely be dashed. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Poreuomai Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.01 13:00:00 - [63] Edited by: Poreuomai on 01/10/2008 13:02:01 Originally by: Ugleb I think that there is quite a simple solution to this and it should allow for RP groups to get in while keeping out most of the groups who are not interested in the RP behind FW. * Introduce and alliance standing for factions based on an average of all member corp's faction standings. * Set a minimum faction standing required for the alliance to enter FW. Set it high. Set it high enough that the vast majority of alliances simply won't hit it. That, brother, is an excellent solution. Originally by: Ugleb We have one corp in the alliance with just 2 members and a horrid Minmatar standing of û5.33. If this corp were removed our standing rises from +1.15 to +1.63. How does this figure change if the number of members in each corp is taken into account? FwCorpStanding=(CorpStandingCorpMemberCount) FwAllianceStanding=(SumOf(CorpStanding)/AllianceMemberCount) reads rest of thread*
Another Forum'Alt	Posted - 2008.10.01 13:16:00 - [64] CCP or whatever should manually put RP alliances who request it into FW, then random alliances can't join to blob it but RPers get to RP This is not part of my sig.
Ugleb Minmatar Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.01 16:42:00 - [65] Originally by: Another Forum'Alt CCP or whatever should manually put RP alliances who request it into FW, then random alliances can't join to blob it but RPers get to RP While it sounds good in principle, how do you quantify it? What do you have to do in order to qualify for the official rubber stamp of 'roleplay alliance'? Who do you let in and who do you turn down, just where do you draw the line? Contact the Sarz'na Khumatari
Another Forum'Alt	Posted - 2008.10.01 21:59:00 - [66] I couldn't comment on that, not being a RPer myself. Just the alliances I think of when I think of RPers - Ushra'khan, Electus Matari, PIE, CVA, Star Fraction (doubt they would join FW though) etc This is not part of my sig. ...Or is it?
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.10.01 22:15:00 - [67] Originally by: Jade Constantine Supported and added to the agenda for Sunday 28th Sept. (The arguments for this are frankly superior to those against) You fail to see that nearly the entire FW population is against this. Yet you find a few supports here worthy to push your personal agenda... wow. You are blinded by your Jade Online. Originally by: Dex Nederland So your entire argument is that the alliances wanting to join should disband the alliance and form a large corporation. How does this change the powerful & wealthy part? Try running your wealthy alliance sov towers, outposts, and maintaining 0.0 space inside a corp. Disbanding an alliance for FW gives them all the power to be a part of FW, and not just be an alliance instigator inside FW. There are ways you can be a part of FW, I suggest you do it... alliances will break FW completely. There's absolutely no reason for an alliance to be involved... none. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.01 22:36:00 - [68] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Jade Constantine Supported and added to the agenda for Sunday 28th Sept. (The arguments for this are frankly superior to those against) You fail to see that nearly the entire FW population is against this. Yet you find a few supports here worthy to push your personal agenda... wow. You are blinded by your Jade Online. Not true in the slightest. Some of the long list of supporters in this and similar threads include PIE, 17TW, Ammatar Free, MAAK, and other major players in FW. In addition, the entirety (as near as I can see) of the RP community supports it, including CVA, EM, and U'K. Besides one or two members from Slackers and a handful of individuals unwilling to display affiliation, who do you see against it? As to Jade, well, SF has publically declared all militias red based on their own politics. So I think it's reasonable to claim that Jade is not doing this for personal motivations, but because Jade, as an RPer, understands this to be a necessary change for the whole of the RP community. Originally by: Pithecanthropus Try running your wealthy alliance sov towers, outposts, and maintaining 0.0 space inside a corp. Disbanding an alliance for FW gives them all the power to be a part of FW, and not just be an alliance instigator inside FW. There are ways you can be a part of FW, I suggest you do it... alliances will break FW completely. There's absolutely no reason for an alliance to be involved... none. Right, there's absolutely no reason for groups such as Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan, who have been central to the freedom fighting business since before 99% of FW players started playing, to be involved in the war against slavery. No reason at all for CVA, who has arguably done more to expand the borders of the Empire (at least in an RP sense) than anyone else alive in the Empire, for being allowed to participate in the Reclaiming. None at all.[/sarcasm] The problem here is that you seem to think that every alliance in the game is BoB or Goons. Most alliances are considerably smaller, and most of the alliances that would even care to be in FW hold no space (exception: CVA). And the huge alliances that could get involved just to screw with things ... can already do so! The Goons wouldn't need to join FW to park their capital fleets in the Bleak Lands, they could do so tomorrow. There's a reason they don't. -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:59:00 - [69] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Dex Nederland So your entire argument is that the alliances wanting to join should disband the alliance and form a large corporation. How does this change the powerful & wealthy part? Try running your wealthy alliance sov towers, outposts, and maintaining 0.0 space inside a corp. Disbanding an alliance for FW gives them all the power to be a part of FW, and not just be an alliance instigator inside FW. There are ways you can be a part of FW, I suggest you do it... alliances will break FW completely. There's absolutely no reason for an alliance to be involved... none. That is just it; I don't see how most alliances could maintain for a prolonged period of time an active presence in FW and defending their 0.0 space. You have not convinced me that alliances in militia forces will break FW any more than alliances targeting FW fighters (SF is the big example) from outside. I have a slight deviation from the topic and one to ask U'K, EM, and other alliances like them - if given a middle option : Megacorporation/Conglermate/etc that could not hold 0.0 space in its own name (but it could join a faction/alliance and then have the benefits of being in an alliance) would you reform into that? An in-between. Founder Heiian Society
Ugleb Minmatar Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:07:00 - [70] Originally by: Dex Nederland I have a slight deviation from the topic and one to ask U'K, EM, and other alliances like them - if given a middle option : Megacorporation/Conglermate/etc that could not hold 0.0 space in its own name (but it could join a faction/alliance and then have the benefits of being in an alliance) would you reform into that? An in-between. Do you mean an alliance that simply can not claim sov? Interesting idea. I think for us it would be an issue, if we ever want to hurt CVA's position in Providence then we have to be able to break their sov. That means sov challenging towers. I guess a work around is forming a second 'alt' alliance that runs the towers while the Ushra'Khan becomes this new non-sov alliance but it would need thinking about. POS gunners would either be alts or mains moved out the Ushra'Khan to the other alliance, which would be a similar issue to the one we currently have with FW - fracturing of the community. It's an interesting idea but would need careful consideration. Contact the Sarz'na Khumatari

Natalia Duraldi Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:40:00 - [71] Supported
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:44:00 - [72] Originally by: Ugleb Originally by: Dex Nederland I have a slight deviation from the topic and one to ask U'K, EM, and other alliances like them - if given a middle option : Megacorporation/Conglermate/etc that could not hold 0.0 space in its own name (but it could join a faction/alliance and then have the benefits of being in an alliance) would you reform into that? An in-between. Do you mean an alliance that simply can not claim sov? Interesting idea. I think for us it would be an issue, if we ever want to hurt CVA's position in Providence then we have to be able to break their sov. That means sov challenging towers. I guess a work around is forming a second 'alt' alliance that runs the towers while the Ushra'Khan becomes this new non-sov alliance but it would need thinking about. POS gunners would either be alts or mains moved out the Ushra'Khan to the other alliance, which would be a similar issue to the one we currently have with FW - fracturing of the community. It's an interesting idea but would need careful consideration. Well I think a solution would be to allow Megacorporations/Conglomerates can claim 0.0 for a faction! This would mean that player groups could choose to work to expand their chosen empire's borders. CVA might decide they want to remain separate from the Empire and so not chose that path, but a Megacorporation might join a Faction and work to claim sov for that Faction as well. So when megacorp U'K decides to try and take parts of Providence from CVA, it might actively claim those systems for the Republic. But maybe I am off my rocker. CEO, Lai Dai Infinity Systems Founder Heiian Society
Marlona Sky Caldari Astroglide X	Posted - 2008.10.14 03:52:00 - [73] No. If you want to join then quit your alliance. CCP allowing alliances to join FW would severly mess up FW severly. No alliance should be allowed to join FW.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.14 06:42:00 - [74] We're had the 2nd formal meeting with CCP (over the last couple of weekends) and while I can't say anything officially as yet on the precise minutes (waiting formating and approval) lets just say things are looking pretty good for this proposal Its been a bit of a fight and lots of anti-feeling from a tiny (but vocal) minority inside FW but ultimately I think everyone sensible realizes that you just can't have bits of Eve content roped off from the rest of the game and inaccessible to the very players who are likely to enjoy it most and bring a lot to the table. It was always an aberration that RP alliances like Ushra'Khan and the CVA were barred from FW - I very much hope and expect to see this resolved in the near future. ... nothing ever burns down by itself
Hooch Flux	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:20:00 - [75] I think this could be a good thing, it could add a bit of structure to the FW militias that have had problems with leadership!
Ugleb Minmatar Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:17:00 - [76] Originally by: Dex Nederland Well I think a solution would be to allow Megacorporations/Conglomerates can claim 0.0 for a faction! This would mean that player groups could choose to work to expand their chosen empire's borders. CVA might decide they want to remain separate from the Empire and so not chose that path, but a Megacorporation might join a Faction and work to claim sov for that Faction as well. So when megacorp U'K decides to try and take parts of Providence from CVA, it might actively claim those systems for the Republic. But maybe I am off my rocker. While I like the RP flavour, I'm not sure how you would handle the specifics. Wouldn't this still be giving the sov holding entity the benefits of 0.0 holdings? If so, is there a reason why players would choose not do this? I had three teeth taken out this morning so maybe I'm not grasping something yet. ;) Originally by: Marlona Sky No. If you want to join then quit your alliance. CCP allowing alliances to join FW would severly mess up FW severly. No alliance should be allowed to join FW. You are not giving any reason why alliances would be a bad thing. What impact does letting an alliance in that a large and wealthy corp does not already have? Not all alliances hold 0.0 space, own high-end moons or even can field large fleets. Those that do have little to no interest in FW anyway. Contact the Sarz'na Khumatari
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.15 03:13:00 - [77] Originally by: Jade Constantine We're had the 2nd formal meeting with CCP (over the last couple of weekends) and while I can't say anything officially as yet on the precise minutes (waiting formating and approval) lets just say things are looking pretty good for this proposal Its been a bit of a fight and lots of anti-feeling from a tiny (but vocal) minority inside FW but ultimately I think everyone sensible realizes that you just can't have bits of Eve content roped off from the rest of the game and inaccessible to the very players who are likely to enjoy it most and bring a lot to the table. It was always an aberration that RP alliances like Ushra'Khan and the CVA were barred from FW - I very much hope and expect to see this resolved in the near future. Thank you! So ... how near might this future be? Is it going to be Soon(tm), meaning we should resign ourself for the duration, or will it actually be a definition of 'near' recognizable as such? Oh, and I like the idea of space claimed by alliances that have joined a faction as being claimed by the faction. Obviously, there's some work to do in terms of figuring out what that would mean, but I certainly don't oppose the concept. -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Daan Sai Polytrope	Posted - 2008.10.15 05:53:00 - [78] agree
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.10.15 06:18:00 - [79] Originally by: Jade Constantine We're had the 2nd formal meeting with CCP (over the last couple of weekends) and while I can't say anything officially as yet on the precise minutes (waiting formating and approval) lets just say things are looking pretty good for this proposal Its been a bit of a fight and lots of anti-feeling from a tiny (but vocal) minority inside FW but ultimately I think everyone sensible realizes that you just can't have bits of Eve content roped off from the rest of the game and inaccessible to the very players who are likely to enjoy it most and bring a lot to the table. It was always an aberration that RP alliances like Ushra'Khan and the CVA were barred from FW - I very much hope and expect to see this resolved in the near future. I really don't think it's going to happen... unless you weaseled a way thru some new FW content and schemes... unless its a total rehaul of FW... which is why I highly doubt the smoke and mirrors you toss out. You've fought hard on an issue that very few side with... and in return you have disregarded the thousands of people who are currently involved in FW, and the original intent of FW. Involving alliance in FW's current state would be a disaster. Let's hope you had good sense to talk about the mechanics of it, rather than the 'wa-wa-waaa' whines behind roleplayers. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.15 08:49:00 - [80] I will again refer you to http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851565&page=1#28, wherein I present evidence that you do not, in fact, represent the unanimous view of FW folk. -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.15 11:28:00 - [81] Originally by: Pithecanthropus I really don't think it's going to happen... Its going to happen. Quote: which is why I highly doubt the smoke and mirrors you toss out. You've fought hard on an issue that very few side with... Negative. Its clear the majority of players want this to happen. Quote: and in return you have disregarded the thousands of people who are currently involved in FW, and the original intent of FW. Negative. You are not "thousands of players" and you don't speak for "thousands of players". You are one player and you have made your argument and in the final analysis it was found wanting in the process of debate. And I don't believe you are qualified to speak of the "orginal intent" of FW any more than you can represent a vast unspoken majority. Face facts, we've had the discussion and you didn't convince anyone. Quote: Involving alliance in FW's current state would be a disaster. Let's hope you had good sense to talk about the mechanics of it Of course the mechanics were discussed. And as a solution I think it will satisfy pretty much everyone. ... nothing ever burns down by itself
Octavinus Augustus Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.15 11:57:00 - [82] First of all, I'm at work and havent had the time to read the whole thread so much of this may have already been shot down. I really like Uglebs idea, but would suggest a few minor changes: A) Make the average standing entry level be dependent on meber standings rather than corp standings. Ie all members in U'K must have an average Minnie standing of XX to join. Also make a minimal standing requirement that applies to ALL members. Ie U'K can't join if any member have a negative standing. B) Make it so that no 0.0 Sov holdning alliance can join FW. This will screw over CVA pretty bad of course, as we'll go for a few months and then see the old "you're not rp'ers at all" etc being thrown our way all the time. But it would allow all other RP entities to join (I'm not aware of any other RP alliances holding Sov anywhere). It would also mean that NO 0.0 non RP alliances would ever join. Not optimal, but I can't see why we should restrict U'K, SF and all the others simply to accomodate the one 0.0 holding RP alliance. C) In order to compensate poor old CVA (and U'K should they ever decide to grab a bit of 0.0 again), make it so that you can set standing to the factions as a whole. IE CVA could set standing to the Minnie faction in one go, and any corp or alliance joining would then be subject to that standing. We could participate, but at a cost to our sec ratings. Not optimal, i know, but far better than nothing. Question is wether CCP will asign programmer resources to actually rectify the complete screwover they did of the RP community when they introduced FW. I doubt it. I'll pay some better attention to this thread when I get off work, and will probably find I'm wrong =n all of the above points Q: How do you make a disobediant Minmatar slave scream? A: Skin it and roll it in salt.
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.10.15 13:43:00 - [83] Give them their FW so I can go about my piraty business in peace wishful thinking Diary of a pod pilot
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:23:00 - [84] Originally by: Jade Constantine We're had the 2nd formal meeting with CCP (over the last couple of weekends) and while I can't say anything officially as yet on the precise minutes (waiting formating and approval) lets just say things are looking pretty good for this proposal Update, please? -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!


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