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Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 16:03:00 - [1] Show some class when posting. > Somebody throws an accusation at you, let it slide, don't insult or accuse right back. > If a fellow CSM has a different stance on something don't bicker with them on the forums, do it privately away from the public eye. You're a team, act like one. > Your personal stances should stay off the forums, be more diplomatic and neutral in discussion. Showing pros and cons to an idea, instead of clearly siding. As far as I'm concerned the whole CSM idea was a bad idea in the first place. Atleast try and make the best of your existence and act accordingly. You're embarassing yourselves and the community. ^ The above wall of text is my opinion, take it or don't it's there. ^ _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:21:00 - [2] Originally by: Odet Show some class when posting. > Somebody throws an accusation at you, let it slide, don't insult or accuse right back. > If a fellow CSM has a different stance on something don't bicker with them on the forums, do it privately away from the public eye. You're a team, act like one. > Your personal stances should stay off the forums, be more diplomatic and neutral in discussion. Showing pros and cons to an idea, instead of clearly siding. As far as I'm concerned the whole CSM idea was a bad idea in the first place. Atleast try and make the best of your existence and act accordingly. You're embarassing yourselves and the community. ^ The above wall of text is my opinion, take it or don't it's there. ^ Thank you for expressing "The Community"'s opinion. Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:30:00 - [3] Originally by: Odet Show some class when posting. > Somebody throws an accusation at you, let it slide, don't insult or accuse right back. > If a fellow CSM has a different stance on something don't bicker with them on the forums, do it privately away from the public eye. You're a team, act like one. > Your personal stances should stay off the forums, be more diplomatic and neutral in discussion. Showing pros and cons to an idea, instead of clearly siding. As far as I'm concerned the whole CSM idea was a bad idea in the first place. Atleast try and make the best of your existence and act accordingly. You're embarassing yourselves and the community. ^ The above wall of text is my opinion, take it or don't it's there. ^ For what its worth I don't think the CSM "idea" was bad. But the reality is we did get people elected who loathe one other and cannot remain civil let alone cooperate - and given Eve's political climate its hardly surprising that happens since the game is built around grudges and vendettas and dark brutality. Whatever happens in the future the reality is some of those people will keep getting re-elected due to alliance voting blocks, so yes, its a problem and I'm honestly not sure how you deal with it. You can certainly make sure YOU pick candidates you believe are capable of turning the other cheek - but you can't stop other players electing their own choice of knife-wielding drama-merchants if it pleases them. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:33:00 - [4] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 19/09/2008 17:33:09 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Odet Show some class when posting. > Somebody throws an accusation at you, let it slide, don't insult or accuse right back. > If a fellow CSM has a different stance on something don't bicker with them on the forums, do it privately away from the public eye. You're a team, act like one. > Your personal stances should stay off the forums, be more diplomatic and neutral in discussion. Showing pros and cons to an idea, instead of clearly siding. As far as I'm concerned the whole CSM idea was a bad idea in the first place. Atleast try and make the best of your existence and act accordingly. You're embarassing yourselves and the community. ^ The above wall of text is my opinion, take it or don't it's there. ^ For what its worth I don't think the CSM "idea" was bad. But the reality is we did get people elected who loathe one other and cannot remain civil let alone cooperate - and given Eve's political climate its hardly surprising that happens since the game is built around grudges and vendettas and dark brutality. Whatever happens in the future the reality is some of those people will keep getting re-elected due to alliance voting blocks, so yes, its a problem and I'm honestly not sure how you deal with it. You can certainly make sure YOU pick candidates you believe are capable of turning the other cheek - but you can't stop other players electing their own choice of knife-wielding drama-merchants if it pleases them. Posts on every forum he's not banned from about what nasty people the rest of the council are and invents conspiracies Laments the lack of civility expressed by others Your hypocrisy knows no limits. Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Odet Show some class when posting. > Somebody throws an accusation at you, let it slide, don't insult or accuse right back. > If a fellow CSM has a different stance on something don't bicker with them on the forums, do it privately away from the public eye. You're a team, act like one. > Your personal stances should stay off the forums, be more diplomatic and neutral in discussion. Showing pros and cons to an idea, instead of clearly siding. As far as I'm concerned the whole CSM idea was a bad idea in the first place. Atleast try and make the best of your existence and act accordingly. You're embarassing yourselves and the community. ^ The above wall of text is my opinion, take it or don't it's there. ^ Thank you for expressing "The Community"'s opinion. Exhibit A _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 19/09/2008 17:33:09 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Odet Show some class when posting. > Somebody throws an accusation at you, let it slide, don't insult or accuse right back. > If a fellow CSM has a different stance on something don't bicker with them on the forums, do it privately away from the public eye. You're a team, act like one. > Your personal stances should stay off the forums, be more diplomatic and neutral in discussion. Showing pros and cons to an idea, instead of clearly siding. As far as I'm concerned the whole CSM idea was a bad idea in the first place. Atleast try and make the best of your existence and act accordingly. You're embarassing yourselves and the community. ^ The above wall of text is my opinion, take it or don't it's there. ^ For what its worth I don't think the CSM "idea" was bad. But the reality is we did get people elected who loathe one other and cannot remain civil let alone cooperate - and given Eve's political climate its hardly surprising that happens since the game is built around grudges and vendettas and dark brutality. Whatever happens in the future the reality is some of those people will keep getting re-elected due to alliance voting blocks, so yes, its a problem and I'm honestly not sure how you deal with it. You can certainly make sure YOU pick candidates you believe are capable of turning the other cheek - but you can't stop other players electing their own choice of knife-wielding drama-merchants if it pleases them. Posts on every forum he's not banned from about what nasty people the rest of the council are and invents conspiracies Laments the lack of civility expressed by others Your hypocrisy knows no limits. Exhibit B _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:38:00 - [7] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 17:42:57 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Your hypocrisy knows no limits. Well, I was pretty straightforward about describing the kind of delegate I expected the Goons to put forward during the election campaign. I think you've illustrated my point there perfectly as well. Well done, you are quite the paragon of your society when all is said and done. As a quick note Darius - hypocrisy means saying one thing and doing (or believing) another. I've been very very open about my lack of respect for you and your capabilities. And I've been similarly honest about my inability to work with somebody of your kind. I can't turn the other cheek to your constant flaming and childish behaviour and if that makes me a bad CSM then so be it - nobody pays us for this "job" and to be frank I don't think anybody could pay me enough to sit in a room/channel/hallway with you once this CSM term is over. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:38:00 - [8] Originally by: Odet Posts on every forum he's not banned from about what nasty people the rest of the council are and invents conspiracies Laments the lack of civility expressed by others Your hypocrisy knows no limits. Exhibit B Get used to it. Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:39:00 - [9] Edited by: Odet on 19/09/2008 17:47:14 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Odet Show some class when posting. > Somebody throws an accusation at you, let it slide, don't insult or accuse right back. > If a fellow CSM has a different stance on something don't bicker with them on the forums, do it privately away from the public eye. You're a team, act like one. > Your personal stances should stay off the forums, be more diplomatic and neutral in discussion. Showing pros and cons to an idea, instead of clearly siding. As far as I'm concerned the whole CSM idea was a bad idea in the first place. Atleast try and make the best of your existence and act accordingly. You're embarassing yourselves and the community. ^ The above wall of text is my opinion, take it or don't it's there. ^ For what its worth I don't think the CSM "idea" was bad. But the reality is we did get people elected who loathe one other and cannot remain civil let alone cooperate - and given Eve's political climate its hardly surprising that happens since the game is built around grudges and vendettas and dark brutality. imo If you are unable to remain civil with ALL the other CSM's, then I don't see you fit to be a CSM. Grudges or not, you are public representative, in a position of respect. You should show respect, class and diplomacy, regardless of how stupid or irrational an idea or person is being. Regardless of in game politics and pasts. As expected, you can see in exhibit A and Exhibit B. _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:49:00 - [10] Anyways i'll get back to this thread after, I take care of a few things, I'm at work so my responses will be delayed. _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Odet If you are unable to remain civil with ALL the other CSM's, then I don't see you fit to be a CSM. Grudges or not, you are public representative, in a position of respect. You should show respect, class and diplomacy, regardless of how stupid or irrational an idea or person is being. Regardless of in game politics and pasts. As expected, you can see in exhibit A and Exhibit B. I think you cite a very idealistic proposition there. And if people truly did vote only for people they expected to be able to remain calm and respectful at all times then the CSM might be interesting - but you do have the problem that however YOU vote, you are always going to get a couple of alliance block candidates in the mix who cannot help themselves but be unpleasant and get stuck into the other delegates. Still, its been an interesting process - I've learned of myself that I'm not cut out for politics because I simply can't stand certain people and can't really hide my disgust for short-sighted partisan issue-blocking against the interests of the game at large. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.09.19 18:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Jade Constantine I think you cite a very idealistic proposition there. And if people truly did vote only for people they expected to be able to remain calm and respectful at all times then the CSM might be interesting - but you do have the problem that however YOU vote, you are always going to get a couple of alliance block candidates in the mix who cannot help themselves but be unpleasant and get stuck into the other delegates. Still, its been an interesting process - I've learned of myself that I'm not cut out for politics because I simply can't stand certain people and can't really hide my disgust for short-sighted partisan issue-blocking against the interests of the game at large. You could have simply stated that you have no self control and you'd have been fine. Once you remove yourself from the equation things have been pretty darn smooth. I'll point out for you again, since you seem to ignore it, that your issues failed because they sucked. There was no "partisan" conspiracy. There's 3 people who live in 0.0 on the entire council of 9. We couldn't as 3 people pass or block anything. You're self-righteously lamenting problems created by yourself which is in and of itself pretty hilarious. One of many examples of this can be found on this very forum not 5 threads down where you attack Lavista for asking a question. If you think anyone's buying your feigned "above it all" act you're out of your mind. Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 18:07:00 - [13] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 18:08:13 If I appear to be ignoring parts (well okay most of) your posts Darius thats because I am. Nothing you say ever really amounts to more than an extended personal attack and as a rule its pointless to respond in detail. Still, continue bellowing as you will. Freedom of speech and all that. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Bane Glorious	Posted - 2008.09.19 18:20:00 - [14] i think i'm pretty civil just imho, just throwing it out there
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:03:00 - [15] Oh, I see, Jade can express his opinion but Darius can't, because Darius' opinion is nebulously deemed "trolling" by a faceless, oversight-less, forum moderator.
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:15:00 - [16] No, Darius's posts were removed by my request, as it is my thread. I asked to have his posts removed because, he was making personal attacks instead of constructively discussing the topic at hand. Do not place any blame on the moderator for doing his job at my request. It is my thread and if I feel somebody is trolling it or de-railing it, I have the right to ask to have the posts removed. _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:17:00 - [17] Originally by: Odet No, Darius's posts were removed by my request, as it is my thread. I asked to have his posts removed because, he was making personal attacks instead of constructively discussing the topic at hand. Do not place any blame on the moderator for doing his job at my request. It is my thread and if I feel somebody is trolling it or de-railing it, I have the right to ask to have the posts removed. Actually that's the moderator's job. If you don't like the responses you get on the internet don't ask questions. You may report whatever you like, but the blame for poor moderation rests solely at the feet of the moderator. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Odet No, Darius's posts were removed by my request, as it is my thread. I asked to have his posts removed because, he was making personal attacks instead of constructively discussing the topic at hand. Do not place any blame on the moderator for doing his job at my request. It is my thread and if I feel somebody is trolling it or de-railing it, I have the right to ask to have the posts removed. Could you do me a favor and report Jade's posts, too? He's doing the same thing, he's just more wordy about it.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:28:00 - [19] It really isn't the moderators fault if you can't express yourself with civil words and debate. Nobody is forcing Goonswarm to flame people on the internet. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!

CCP Saint C C P	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:38:00 - [20] cleaned Continuation of discussion of moderation will result in warnings/bans. Please post with respect to fellow players and continue discussions without attacking each other. If you truly feel the need to continue, please take it in game and hunt each other down with massive amounts of 'pew pew' and 'ohh noesss!' Saint Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang Do Not Click Here "Contrary to what most people say, the most dangerous animal in the world is not the lion or the tiger or even the elephant. It's a shark riding on an elephant's back, just trampling and eating everything they see."

Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:44:00 - [21] Originally by: CCP Saint If you truly feel the need to continue, please take it in game and hunt each other down with massive amounts of 'pew pew' and 'ohh noesss!' QFT - excellent advise! Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:49:00 - [22] Originally by: CCP Saint cleaned Continuation of discussion of moderation will result in warnings/bans. Please post with respect to fellow players and continue discussions without attacking each other. If you truly feel the need to continue, please take it in game and hunt each other down with massive amounts of 'pew pew' and 'ohh noesss!' Thanks for the tidy up. _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:56:00 - [23] Originally by: CCP Saint cleaned Continuation of discussion of moderation will result in warnings/bans. Please post with respect to fellow players and continue discussions without attacking each other. If you truly feel the need to continue, please take it in game and hunt each other down with massive amounts of 'pew pew' and 'ohh noesss!' That was a perfectly valid topic of discussion. It was not an attack and was a direct response to a post in this thread. What on earth is wrong with you? You must be new. I'd suggest you go get someone to look over your shoulder. Like now. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 19:59:00 - [24] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Odet If you are unable to remain civil with ALL the other CSM's, then I don't see you fit to be a CSM. Grudges or not, you are public representative, in a position of respect. You should show respect, class and diplomacy, regardless of how stupid or irrational an idea or person is being. Regardless of in game politics and pasts. As expected, you can see in exhibit A and Exhibit B. I think you cite a very idealistic proposition there. And if people truly did vote only for people they expected to be able to remain calm and respectful at all times then the CSM might be interesting - but you do have the problem that however YOU vote, you are always going to get a couple of alliance block candidates in the mix who cannot help themselves but be unpleasant and get stuck into the other delegates. Still, its been an interesting process - I've learned of myself that I'm not cut out for politics because I simply can't stand certain people and can't really hide my disgust for short-sighted partisan issue-blocking against the interests of the game at large. Well Jade, I agree there will always be somebody elected who shouldn't have been, as they do not meet the criteria of a well rounded CSM. But CSM's are still subject to the forum rules as you can see from this thread. If the CSM Can't act accordingly, he will get his post removed like everyone else. CSM's should imo be subject to harsher penalities, when it comes to having their post removed, given their position in the community. If a CSM has thier posts removed x amount of times they should be removed from CSM period. Let's say first time a warning, second a gag for x amount of time, third time removed as a CSM. They should act accordingly with their added responsibility. If they are unable to act in accordance to their position they should not be there. That's how I feel about it anyway. _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:01:00 - [25] Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 19/09/2008 20:03:07 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: CCP Saint If you truly feel the need to continue, please take it in game and hunt each other down with massive amounts of 'pew pew' and 'ohh noesss!' QFT - excellent advise! Man you just don't get it do you. Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 18:08:13 If I appear to be ignoring parts (well okay most of) your posts Darius thats because I am. Nothing you say ever really amounts to more than an extended personal attack and as a rule its pointless to respond in detail. Still, continue bellowing as you will. Freedom of speech and all that. This kinda stuff coming from you is priceless. Were you not initially banned from these forums way back when for being exactly like that?
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:12:00 - [26] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 20:14:49 Originally by: Odet Well Jade, I agree there will always be somebody elected who shouldn't have been, as they do not meet the criteria of a well rounded CSM. But CSM's are still subject to the forum rules as you can see from this thread. If the CSM Can't act accordingly, he will get his post removed like everyone else. Well I don't want to get involved in the specific discussion of moderation in this thread - but I think this Jita Park/Assembly hall pair of forum sections has been a problem for forum management since the outset. There has been a lot of flaming and bad behaviour perpetrated here - and part of that is responsible for the death of actual debate between CSMs and the community in these forum sections. I can understand why it happened and why it was felt these sections should be "hands off" so as to not interfere with the democratic opinions and discussions that were meant to happen here - but with virtual mudslinging so thick that you can't see opinions and debate for the actual mud its all a bit silly. I certainly feel strongly that I literally cannot post ANYTHING here without being abused, insulted, flamed and trolled at the moment. And thats a ridiculous situation for a player, let alone a CSM rep, let alone CSM chair to be in. We were promised some private forums to conduct CSM business in but circumstances have gotten in the way of that and its nobodies fault end of the day. But the fact we NEED private forums is a bad reflection on the climate of the forums in and of themselves. The community does have some responsibility in not exercising appropriate peer pressure on individuals and organizations that promote flaming as an ordinary style of discourse. Quote: CSM's should imo be subject to harsher penalities, when it comes to having their post removed, given their position in the community. If a CSM has thier posts removed x amount of times they should be removed from CSM period. Let's say first time a warning, second a gag for x amount of time, third time removed as a CSM. They should act accordingly with their added responsibility. If they are unable to act in accordance to their position they should not be there. That's how I feel about it anyway. Problem is that any moderation system can be "gamed" to a degree. And you don't want lawfully elected CSM's getting removed due to some underground mob "report" flood. Its a very difficult thing to measure. I think ultra-strict moderation is not the answer. I think community peer pressure is. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Odet Well Jade, I agree there will always be somebody elected who shouldn't have been, as they do not meet the criteria of a well rounded CSM. But CSM's are still subject to the forum rules as you can see from this thread. If the CSM Can't act accordingly, he will get his post removed like everyone else. CSM's should imo be subject to harsher penalities, when it comes to having their post removed, given their position in the community. If a CSM has thier posts removed x amount of times they should be removed from CSM period. Let's say first time a warning, second a gag for x amount of time, third time removed as a CSM. They should act accordingly with their added responsibility. If they are unable to act in accordance to their position they should not be there. That's how I feel about it anyway. You get your voice and your vote every election cycle. That's your opportunity to speak and be heard. You continue to have that opportunity to express your opinion here on these forums. However, to suggest that elected representative's opinions should be controlled by CCP is hilariously offbase when discussing a council whose very creation stems from CCP's negative actions. Allowing CCP to sway the discourse of the CSM in ANY WAY whatsoever, including via "moderation" is a ridiculous and dangerous prospect and sets an awful precedent. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:16:00 - [28] Edited by: Santaria Boon on 19/09/2008 20:18:13 Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I don't want to get involved in the specific discussion of moderation in this thread - but I think this Jita Park/Assembly hall pair of forum sections has been a problem for forum management since the outset. There has been a lot of flaming and bad behaviour perpetrated here - and part of that is responsible for the death of actual debate between CSMs and the community in these forum sections. I can understand why it happened and why it was felt these sections should be "hands off" so as to not interfere with the democratic opinions and discussions that were meant to happen here - but with virtual mudslinging so thick that you can't see opinions and debate for the actual mud its all a bit silly. I certainly feel strongly that I literally cannot post ANYTHING here without being abused, insulted, flamed and trolled at the moment. And thats a ridiculous situation for a player, let alone a CSM rep, let alone CSM chair to be in. We were promised some private forums to conduct CSM business in but circumstances have gotten in the way of that and its nobodies fault end of the day. But the fact we NEED private forums is a bad reflection on the climate of the forums in and of themselves. The community does have some responsibility in not exercising appropriate peer pressure on individuals and organizations that promote flaming as an ordinary style of discourse. Quote: CSM's should imo be subject to harsher penalities, when it comes to having their post removed, given their position in the community. If a CSM has thier posts removed x amount of times they should be removed from CSM period. Let's say first time a warning, second a gag for x amount of time, third time removed as a CSM. They should act accordingly with their added responsibility. If they are unable to act in accordance to their position they should not be there. That's how I feel about it anyway. Problem is that any moderation system can be "gamed" to a degree. And you don't want lawfully elected CSM's getting removed due to some underground mob "report" flood. Its a very difficult thing to measure. I think ultra-strict moderation is not the answer. I think community peer pressure is. When you flame, attack and abuse others you should expect nothing but the same in return. Playing the victim doesn't excuse your own actions, nor even deflect from them very well. :edit: I'm glad to see you've changed your tune on the moderation angle to one of community policing. I do seem to remember you mentioning wanting community members to be able to ban people in some form as well. A concept which seemed to gloss over the fact that in this world you also wouldn't be able to post. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:23:00 - [29] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 20:24:39 Originally by: Santaria Boon :edit: I'm glad to see you've changed your tune on the moderation angle to one of community policing. I do seem to remember you mentioning wanting community members to be able to ban people in some form as well. A concept which seemed to gloss over the fact that in this world you also wouldn't be able to post. Oh I still want that. I think it would be a great idea for the leaders of organizations to have collective responsibility for the posting standards of their members. I think eventually an organization that seems to promote pointless flaming as a default posting standard for its membership on eve online forums - should probably face temp-banning at the organizational level and be expected to improve.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 20:24:39 Originally by: Santaria Boon :edit: I'm glad to see you've changed your tune on the moderation angle to one of community policing. I do seem to remember you mentioning wanting community members to be able to ban people in some form as well. A concept which seemed to gloss over the fact that in this world you also wouldn't be able to post. Oh I still want that. I think it would be a great idea for the leaders of organizations to have collective responsibility for the posting standards of their members. I think eventually an organization that seems to promote pointless flaming as a default posting standard for its membership on eve online forums - should probably face temp-banning at the organizational level and be expected to improve. heh Jade talking about posting standards. Really? i guess you dont need to be here anymore.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:31:00 - [31] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 20:31:19 Originally by: Aprudena Gist heh Jade talking about posting standards. Really? i guess you dont need to be here anymore. Well yes I will talk about posting standards. Case in point - you know that IGS forum here - the one tagged "roleplay discussions". When I post there I do so in an IC voice and respect the in-character nature of that forum and the characters posting there. This afternoon we've seen a lot of ooc smacktalk from the goons posting there. I think thats simply bad and your leadership should ensure that your members are taught better standards not encouraged to break the specific forum posting rules and spoil the forum experience for other players who want to roleplay their characters and organizations. I don't care that goons think roleplay is laughable. I do care that you don't respect the posting rules for specific sections. Hence I think it would be good if there was some kind of collective responsibility for an organization that seems collectively incapable of maintaining decent and responsible standards. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:32:00 - [32] Originally by: Jade Constantine I certainly feel strongly that I literally cannot post ANYTHING here without being abused, insulted, flamed and trolled at the moment. And thats a ridiculous situation for a player, let alone a CSM rep, let alone CSM chair to be in. So, it wouldn't have anything to do with the content of your posts, then?
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Jade Constantine Oh I still want that. I think it would be a great idea for the leaders of organizations to have collective responsibility for the posting standards of their members. I think eventually an organization that seems to promote pointless flaming as a default posting standard for its membership on eve online forums - should probably face temp-banning at the organizational level and be expected to improve. I'm glad you support a proposition whereby the weight of numbers would free us all from your posting forever. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well yes I will talk about posting standards. Case in point - you know that IGS forum here - the one tagged "roleplay discussions". When I post there I do so in an IC voice and respect the in-character nature of that forum and the characters posting there. This afternoon we've seen a lot of ooc smacktalk from the goons posting there. I think thats simply bad and your leadership should ensure that your members are taught better standards not encouraged to break the specific forum posting rules and spoil the forum experience for other players who want to roleplay their characters and organizations. I don't care that goons think roleplay is laughable. I do care that you don't respect the posting rules for specific sections. Hence I think it would be good if there was some kind of collective responsibility for an organization that seems collectively incapable of maintaining decent and responsible standards. Newsflash - Your standards are not everyone's standards. Get over it. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 20:31:19 Originally by: Aprudena Gist heh Jade talking about posting standards. Really? i guess you dont need to be here anymore. Well yes I will talk about posting standards. Case in point - you know that IGS forum here - the one tagged "roleplay discussions". When I post there I do so in an IC voice and respect the in-character nature of that forum and the characters posting there. This afternoon we've seen a lot of ooc smacktalk from the goons posting there. I think thats simply bad and your leadership should ensure that your members are taught better standards not encouraged to break the specific forum posting rules and spoil the forum experience for other players who want to roleplay their characters and organizations. I don't care that goons think roleplay is laughable. I do care that you don't respect the posting rules for specific sections. Hence I think it would be good if there was some kind of collective responsibility for an organization that seems collectively incapable of maintaining decent and responsible standards. I'll have you know that the smack talk is in character for goons as we are role playing the *******s of eve.
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:41:00 - [36] Originally by: Aprudena Gist Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 20:31:19 Originally by: Aprudena Gist heh Jade talking about posting standards. Really? i guess you dont need to be here anymore. Well yes I will talk about posting standards. Case in point - you know that IGS forum here - the one tagged "roleplay discussions". When I post there I do so in an IC voice and respect the in-character nature of that forum and the characters posting there. This afternoon we've seen a lot of ooc smacktalk from the goons posting there. I think thats simply bad and your leadership should ensure that your members are taught better standards not encouraged to break the specific forum posting rules and spoil the forum experience for other players who want to roleplay their characters and organizations. I don't care that goons think roleplay is laughable. I do care that you don't respect the posting rules for specific sections. Hence I think it would be good if there was some kind of collective responsibility for an organization that seems collectively incapable of maintaining decent and responsible standards. I'll have you know that the smack talk is in character for goons as we are role playing the *******s of eve. In that case I'll ask you to take your role play to the role playing forum. _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Odet I never stated their opinions should be controled in any way shape or form. I've clearly state that their opinions should be delivered in an appropriate manner suitable to the postion of of a CSM. If the CSM is unable to deliver his message in a respectful manner his post should be removed as any other poster, but face harsher penalities. I'll ask you to re-read my posts from the begining, it should help you get a clearer picture of what I am saying. I did read your posts and responded directly to them. Unless a CSM violates the EULA they are within their rights to act however they wish. Your opinion on what is acceptable and what isn't is irrelevant. People are different and neither you nor anyone else is the arbiter of morality or post quality. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:48:00 - [38] Originally by: Santaria Boon People are different and neither you nor anyone else is the arbiter of morality or post quality. See this is where I think you are wrong. The eve community needs involved in some way as arbiter of post quality (even if simply through the aegis of peer pressure) - because the community here is something worth preserving and we have seen a terrible reduction in post quality on these forums and something does need doing about it. Its simply not acceptable to see these Eve forums turned into SA forums mk2. It has to stop. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:58:00 - [39] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Santaria Boon People are different and neither you nor anyone else is the arbiter of morality or post quality. See this is where I think you are wrong. The eve community needs involved in some way as arbiter of post quality (even if simply through the aegis of peer pressure) - because the community here is something worth preserving and we have seen a terrible reduction in post quality on these forums and something does need doing about it. Its simply not acceptable to see these Eve forums turned into SA forums mk2. It has to stop. Or you could take things that work from SA. Pertinent to this, how about an ignore list? Don't like the user, add them to your ignore list and you never have to read their twaddle again. Pretty straight forward and egalitarian.
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Santaria Boon Originally by: Odet I never stated their opinions should be controled in any way shape or form. I've clearly state that their opinions should be delivered in an appropriate manner suitable to the postion of of a CSM. If the CSM is unable to deliver his message in a respectful manner his post should be removed as any other poster, but face harsher penalities. I'll ask you to re-read my posts from the begining, it should help you get a clearer picture of what I am saying. I did read your posts and responded directly to them. Unless a CSM violates the EULA they are within their rights to act however they wish. Your opinion on what is acceptable and what isn't is irrelevant. People are different and neither you nor anyone else is the arbiter of morality or post quality. So in your view a CSM should not have to be respectful? Diplomatic? Mature? _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:05:00 - [41] Originally by: KeratinBoy Or you could take things that work from SA. Pertinent to this, how about an ignore list? Don't like the user, add them to your ignore list and you never have to read their twaddle again. Pretty straight forward and egalitarian. Well I can see some problems when I end up adding "goonswarm" as an organization to my ignore list and can't see issues that Darius or Bane want adding to agendas. But aside from that - there is the role these forums play as a "shopfront" and advertising venue for the game of Eve online. If it devolves to flamers flaming flamers (but protecting themselves with selective ignores) how does that look to Joe Public taking a quit peer at the forums? And is it fair to put the burden on administration on the ordinary player that just wants to see a decent standard of debate and discussion on these forums? Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:08:00 - [42] Originally by: Odet Originally by: Santaria Boon Originally by: Odet I never stated their opinions should be controled in any way shape or form. I've clearly state that their opinions should be delivered in an appropriate manner suitable to the postion of of a CSM. If the CSM is unable to deliver his message in a respectful manner his post should be removed as any other poster, but face harsher penalities. I'll ask you to re-read my posts from the begining, it should help you get a clearer picture of what I am saying. I did read your posts and responded directly to them. Unless a CSM violates the EULA they are within their rights to act however they wish. Your opinion on what is acceptable and what isn't is irrelevant. People are different and neither you nor anyone else is the arbiter of morality or post quality. So in your view a CSM should not have to be respectful? Diplomatic? Mature? Should is a nice word. The world should be buttercups and puppies. However, it seems to be economic meltdown and posturing at the moment. The CSM should be able to comprehend proposed game balancing and changing for the betterment of the game. However, it seems that some CSM members have little to no ability to understand how the game works. We can maybe fix the game but fixing people..?
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Odet So in your view a CSM should not have to be respectful? Diplomatic? Mature? Respectfulness, maturity and diplomacy are all subjective concepts and aren't an enforceable requirement of the EULA. If they're listed there as requirements that thing's a bigger piece of garbage than I thought. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I can see some problems when I end up adding "goonswarm" as an organization to my ignore list and can't see issues that Darius or Bane want adding to agendas. Your choice, your problem. Quote: But aside from that - there is the role these forums play as a "shopfront" and advertising venue for the game of Eve online. If it devolves to flamers flaming flamers (but protecting themselves with selective ignores) how does that look to Joe Public taking a quit peer at the forums? ...They look like a bunch of angry weird nerds getting really angry about internet spaceships? Plus, who the hell looks at the forums for a game about blowing things up in space? Watch the promo vids, DL client and get 2 weeks free. Quote: And is it fair to put the burden on administration on the ordinary player that just wants to see a decent standard of debate and discussion on these forums? Pressing one button is a burden? Wow, the poor players actively deciding for themselves. We can set up helplines and stuff.
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:15:00 - [45] Originally by: Santaria Boon Originally by: Odet So in your view a CSM should not have to be respectful? Diplomatic? Mature? Respectfulness, maturity and diplomacy are all subjective concepts and aren't an enforceable requirement of the EULA. If they're listed there as requirements that thing's a bigger piece of garbage than I thought. It most certainly is not. I'm saying a CSM should be those things. _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:15:00 - [46] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I can see some problems when I end up adding "goonswarm" as an organization to my ignore list and can't see issues that Darius or Bane want adding to agendas. Don't sweat it champ, that's already been rectified by CCP via "report" button. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:16:00 - [47] Originally by: Odet It most certainly is not. I'm saying a CSM should be those things. Your completely subjective and unenforceable opinion can and should be noted. However your calls for administrative sanction based on that are what I take umbrage with. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:20:00 - [48] Originally by: Jade Constantine See this is where I think you are wrong. The eve community needs involved in some way as arbiter of post quality (even if simply through the aegis of peer pressure) - because the community here is something worth preserving and we have seen a terrible reduction in post quality on these forums and something does need doing about it. Its simply not acceptable to see these Eve forums turned into SA forums mk2. It has to stop. Rep system for the eve community. That's fine. I'm simply letting you know that what you're asking for is a world you'll be excluded from. What you do or don't find acceptable is irrelevant. These aren't your forums. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Santaria Boon Originally by: Odet It most certainly is not. I'm saying a CSM should be those things. Your completely subjective and unenforceable opinion can and should be noted. However your calls for administrative sanction based on that are what I take umbrage with. Until you re-word your post/posts, in a more respectful manner, I will not debate or reply to you. If you do not wish to be respectful, I'll ask you to leave this discussion. _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:24:00 - [50] Originally by: Odet Originally by: Santaria Boon Your completely subjective and unenforceable opinion can and should be noted. However your calls for administrative sanction based on that are what I take umbrage with. Until you re-word your post/posts, in a more respectful manner, I will not debate or reply to you. If you do not wish to be respectful, I'll ask you to leave this discussion. That was a direct response to what you said and there is nothing remotely disrespectful in there. Until you can accept a meaningful discussion whereby you debate your points without crying offense when someone disagrees with you in a completely respectful manner I'll ask you to leave this forum. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:33:00 - [51] Odet, Santaria is correct. Opinions are subjective. You may or may not agree with how they are expressed but that is up to you. Are you telling me that you never heard anyone say something you thought was absolute hogwash and expressed as such to them. Personally, if I think someone is talking shit, I tell them they are talking shit. I get hit a lot less often than you might think, somewhat bafflingly.
Odet Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.19 21:42:00 - [52] Originally by: KeratinBoy Odet, Santaria is correct. Opinions are subjective. You may or may not agree with how they are expressed but that is up to you. Are you telling me that you never heard anyone say something you thought was absolute hogwash and expressed as such to them. Personally, if I think someone is talking shit, I tell them they are talking shit. I get hit a lot less often than you might think, somewhat bafflingly. I agree opinions are subjective. The thread is not about your actions or my actions, or how you or I express them. It is about how the CSM's act and express themselves. Yes I have heard certain peoples opinions that I do not agree with. And I personally myself would tell them they were full of it. But, if I were in the position of a CSM, I would show restraint and not let my personal emotions or opinions get in the way of a debate. Since that is what were discussing, is the CSMs.
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.19 22:13:00 - [53] Originally by: Odet I agree opinions are subjective. The thread is not about your actions or my actions, or how you or I express them. It is about how the CSM's act and express themselves. Yes I have heard certain peoples opinions that I do not agree with. And I personally myself would tell them they were full of it. But, if I were in the position of a CSM, I would show restraint and not let my personal emotions or opinions get in the way of a debate. Since that is what were discussing, is the CSMs. Then were you a CSM you could be a shining beacon for all that is good and right with the CSM. Personally I don't feel the CSM should be held to any higher ethical code than anyone else and anyone insinuating that it should or ever will be otherwise is living in a fantasy. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Scagga Laebetrovo Evil Bastards Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.19 22:28:00 - [54] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 19/09/2008 22:28:37 Originally by: Jade Constantine Freedom of speech and all that. Perhaps a luxury you wouldn't afford others wherever you were to have the power to do so
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:33:00 - [55] Originally by: Jade Constantine I certainly feel strongly that I literally cannot post ANYTHING here without being abused, insulted, flamed and trolled at the moment. And thats a ridiculous situation for a player, let alone a CSM rep, let alone CSM chair to be in. You're a walking drama bomb with paper-thin skin. Of course you feel picked on - you start fights and then feel put out when people fight back. The problem isn't people picking on you unfairly - you get made fun of when you say stupid things, the same as everybody else(god knows I've had my share of it on forums over the years). The problem is that you're delusional about what normal interpersonal interaction looks like. You set out to make an enemy of two of the people on your council, and then you're surprised when one of them fights back. What, precisely, did you expect? Darius is not a particularly subtle or courteous man, but he's supposed to take your limitless abuse without saying anything in response? What fantasy world do you live in that that possibility is even worthy of consideration? Seriously, quit playing the "Oh, woe is me!" game. You are the single most powerful Eve player in the game - you're one of nine who gets direct access to CCP, and the head one at that. So what if people pick on you on the forums? Is your ego really so fragile that you can't take it? What does it matter to you if some avatar on the forums, who you'll never meet or even know the real name of, says unpleasant things about you? You should have known going in that you'd face abuse - politicians are routinely subjected to public inquisitions into family members, abuses of every criminal act that an opposition member think has the slightest chance of sticking, abusive lawsuits by the dozen, and the odd assassination to cap it all off. You're nowhere near so big or important as a President or Prime Minister, but you preside over the Eve forums, not a civilized nation. The only surprise thus far has been how little abuse you have received - you are being held accountable for some very shady actions by ten thousand anonymous, angry individuals(with far above-average numbers of guys and youth, for added self-restraint), and there's only been half a dozen threads that compare you unfavourably to Jack the Ripper. You should be glad, and instead you're acting like a whiny little emo kid, complaining that nobody knows how hard it is to lead exactly the same life as everybody else. Congratulations, you get abused on the Eve forums. You want a cookie? ------------------ Fix the forums!
Scagga Laebetrovo Evil Bastards Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.20 00:04:00 - [56] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto You are the single most powerful Eve player in the CSM - you're one of nine who gets direct access to CCP, and the head one at that. Fixed that for you
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.20 00:10:00 - [57] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto You want a cookie? Well done sir.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.20 01:03:00 - [58] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto You are the single most powerful Eve player in the CSM - you're one of nine who gets direct access to CCP, and the head one at that. Fixed that for you Sure, Molle and JOHNSON(and a few dozen others) are more powerful in-game, but in terms of ability to actually affect the game itself, I stand by the original (devs and their girlfriends excepted, of course). ------------------ Fix the forums!
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.20 06:05:00 - [59] Edited by: Yorda on 20/09/2008 06:06:00 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto You are the single most powerful Eve player in the CSM - you're one of nine who gets direct access to CCP, and the head one at that. Fixed that for you Sure, Molle and JOHNSON(and a few dozen others) are more powerful in-game, but in terms of ability to actually affect the game itself, I stand by the original (devs and their girlfriends excepted, of course). Anyone can make suggestions to CCP. The only difference is they actually have to sit down and listen to the CSM (sorry ccp devs). Jade has absolutely no ability to effect the game itself, only an easire way of persuading the devs.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.20 12:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Yorda Anyone can make suggestions to CCP. The only difference is they actually have to sit down and listen to the CSM (sorry ccp devs). Jade has absolutely no ability to effect the game itself, only an easire way of persuading the devs. Which is still ahead of anybody else. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.20 13:17:00 - [61] No point whatsoever me addressing the specific bias and personal attacks Herschel Yamamoto. All I suggest is that you run next time and put yourself in the spotlight. But I will repeat my point. The absolute worst thing about this CSM experience is the interaction on these forums. There are some players who have tried to interact decently with the delegates and bring good issues to the forefront - but many many others that simply see it as an excuse to flame people without moderation and feel entitled to treat delegates like circus freaks for their amusement. Nothing I say to you will put a fault line into your sense of entitlement Herschel. Therefore next time around its for you to demonstrate you can take it as well as you give it. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.20 14:40:00 - [62] Originally by: Jade Constantine No point whatsoever me addressing the specific bias and personal attacks Herschel Yamamoto. All I suggest is that you run next time and put yourself in the spotlight. But I will repeat my point. The absolute worst thing about this CSM experience is the interaction on these forums. There are some players who have tried to interact decently with the delegates and bring good issues to the forefront - but many many others that simply see it as an excuse to flame people without moderation and feel entitled to treat delegates like circus freaks for their amusement. Nothing I say to you will put a fault line into your sense of entitlement Herschel. Therefore next time around its for you to demonstrate you can take it as well as you give it. Bias? Are you seriously trying to accuse me of bias? I voted for you! I supported you on these forums against unwarranted attacks for months, and for that matter I still do whenever I feel them to be unfair. I never claimed you were the only problem on the CSM, and in fact I have explicitly stated the opposite repeatedly. I've just gotten sick and tired of your "oh woe is me" facade, your paranoid conspiracy theories, and your constant picking of fights with those you're supposed to be working with. Your policy is often great, but your personality is toxic. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.20 15:04:00 - [63] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 20/09/2008 15:12:20 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Bias? Are you seriously trying to accuse me of bias? I voted for you! Its a very easy claim to make and you are not the only one to make it. I've lost count of how many weird sounding "alts" claimed to have voted for me then suddenly decided what a bad idea it was the first time I ended up disagreeing with any of their personal issue threads. Spooky. Quote: I supported you on these forums against unwarranted attacks for months, and for that matter I still do whenever I feel them to be unfair. I never claimed you were the only problem on the CSM, and in fact I have explicitly stated the opposite repeatedly. I've seen nothing but bias and general attacks from you since meeting 3 and that was a long long long time ago. But its fine, you have a right to an opinion as do I - and that opinion is that I hope you'll run next time and put yourself into the firing line and I hope you will demonstrate what a paragon of humankind you are able to be under fire from a host of people on these forums. Ultimately its easy to scapegoat, its easy to play to the chorus, not so easy to retain a sense of integrity and do what you promised to attempt in an election manifesto. Quote: I've just gotten sick and tired of your "oh woe is me" facade, your paranoid conspiracy theories, and your constant picking of fights with those you're supposed to be working with. Your policy is often great, but your personality is toxic. And I've gotten tired of your continual snipes and bias. What you consider "toxic" is doubtless the fact that you've reached the limits of my patience for dealing equitably with personal attack and trolling. As I said earlier - you seem to believe you are "entitled" to behave poorly in respect to CSM delegates elected to this institution. I don't recognize that entitlement. Nothing I can about that though save consider your comments in that light and resolve not to vote for you if you decide to stand next time. But rest assured, I'm not exactly wounded to the quick by your assessment of my personality. I'm not crushed by goonswarm value-judgments either. End of the day I'll live, I'll flourish and keep on enjoying the game of Eve online. I hope you find a way of enjoying it too. The environment is big enough for us both - and perhaps once you no longer feel "entitled" to flame and troll me at will then I'll stop considering you in such a negative light as a consequence. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Inanna Zuni	Posted - 2008.09.20 21:47:00 - [64] Originally by: Jade Constantine But the reality is we did get people elected who loathe one other and cannot remain civil let alone cooperate Please note Jade is speaking very much for himself there and he has made his feelings very clear. He does not speak for me nor, so far as I am aware, anyone else in this. IZ My principles
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.20 22:00:00 - [65] Actually, you missed the important word, should have been; Show respect when posting and interacting with fellow players... Respect is what is sadly missing... take care, Arithron Better to be a live dog than a dead lion...
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.20 23:31:00 - [66] It occurs to me at this point to ask a question of you, Jade. Now, my understanding is that you are not seeking re-election in the next round. It thus follows that I wonder as to your demeanour after stepping down. Are you going to accept the decisions of the CSM or are you going to refer to your days as chairman and make with the "Well, what I would do..." and all that lark?
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.20 23:36:00 - [67] Originally by: Jade Constantine Its a very easy claim to make and you are not the only one to make it. I've lost count of how many weird sounding "alts" claimed to have voted for me then suddenly decided what a bad idea it was the first time I ended up disagreeing with any of their personal issue threads. Spooky. I can show you messages of support in your campaign thread, chatlogs where I tried to get corpies to vote for you, and repeated messages of support between the time I read your manifesto and the time you decided muting was fun. Even then I limited my criticism to the act at hand - I stated that I didn't regret my vote, and that I wanted you to stay on as a CSM member when many were saying otherwise. My public record is clear, and whether you choose to believe me or not is utterly immaterial to me. Originally by: Jade Constantine I've seen nothing but bias and general attacks from you since meeting 3 and that was a long long long time ago. But its fine, you have a right to an opinion as do I - and that opinion is that I hope you'll run next time and put yourself into the firing line and I hope you will demonstrate what a paragon of humankind you are able to be under fire from a host of people on these forums. Ultimately its easy to scapegoat, its easy to play to the chorus, not so easy to retain a sense of integrity and do what you promised to attempt in an election manifesto. Who said I'm a paragon of humanity? I'm a total jerk. The difference is, I'm a jerk towards people's ideas. You're a jerk towards people. I've had plenty of low-level wars in committees I've sat on in the past(and I don't mean forum sniping, I mean face-to-face, and in one rather bizarre case a fistfight between two friends of mine), but at the end of the day I could go out and have a beer with anyone and everyone involved in those fights. As for me running, you'll find out one way or the other by the nomination deadline, and that's all I'll say about that for now. Originally by: Jade Constantine What you consider "toxic" is doubtless the fact that you've reached the limits of my patience for dealing equitably with personal attack and trolling. Here is a selection of quotes from your candidacy thread, all from April or May. Quote: the primary argument against destructible outpost concept comes from lazy large alliances goonies...I neither like nor appreciate much of the specific gameplay focus they crave nor do I think that focus is actually very good for the future of Eve online the successful MMORPG. Goons, please get over yourselves. Eve Online is not about you. You're a single 0.0 power (currently in decline). You have no more knowledge about "what Eve is about" than any other collection of players and often considerably less. As well, there's a rather nice quote of yours from earlier in this thread that the mods deleted, and thus that I won't quote directly, that basically admitted that you had an anti-Goon bias from the beginning - see here for what I mean, specifically post #7. Considering that that was precisely my complaint about your personality - your simultaneous desires to pick fights and stay aloof from the consequences of them - I feel justified in my accusations. Originally by: Jade Constantine As I said earlier - you seem to believe you are "entitled" to behave poorly in respect to CSM delegates elected to this institution. You are entitled to your opinions, I am entitled to call you on them, and vice-versa. We're both adults, we both live in free countries(well, mostly), and we both have our right to freedom of speech(well, mostly) - we're entitled to be mean to each other, whatever our positions. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Lia Gaeren Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens	Posted - 2008.09.21 09:37:00 - [68] I don't think wqe've had any truly terrible CSM reps this time around although I do feel that some have performed their elected role better than others. My opinion on their performance is below. I'm not saying I can do the job better (in fact, I am sure I couldn't), I'm just being an armchair analyst here. (note - this is based on what I've read on the forums and chat logs, but I know this is not the whole picture because I got bored after about chat log 5, and as an Empire carebear tend to not bother reading posts about 0.0 mechanics or PvP.) 1: Jade - started out well but I feel has deteriorated under the pressure of being in so many cross-hairs (something he has admitted himself). Didn't help himself by his willingness to engage in forum wars. 2: Darius - started out not too good (I couldn't see much evidence of constructive discussion in the first few chat logs) but I feel has gotten slightly better. Has been a little too keen to take shots at Jade. 3: Bane - Not the best. He seems to have some good ideas and clearly has knowledge of 0.0 mechanics, but seemed unwilling to want to discuss them either in the meetings, or on the forums. Posting record is sparse and sometimes aggressive. 4: LaVista Vista - Has had good forum presence and has shown willingness to engage in debate. One of the better performing CSMs. 5: Hardin - I had trouble remembering the 9th member of the CSM... I don't know if he's just been active in the threads I'm not reading, but I don't remember much input in the chat logs either. 6-9: Serenity, Ankhesentapemkah, Innana, Deirdra - seem to have quietly gotten on with the job. A little more forum interaction would have been nice though. I have two accounts and already know who I will be voting for, if they stand - one is a serving CSM (and the same one I voted for in the original elections who got in) and the other is someone who every time they post I find myself agreeing with pretty much every word. I think people now have a much better idea of what the CSM is for, and what it is able to achieve - I do hope though that next time around we get as decent a cross-section of the playing public as we have had this time, but hopefully with more individuals able to push their election platforms through while not being blinkered to the big picture. I don't have a problem with issue bias - heck, we all vote for CSM members based on the issues they support - provided that they don't lose sight of what is good for the game as a whole.
Candice Dice	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:51:00 - [69] Originally by: Inanna Zuni Originally by: Jade Constantine But the reality is we did get people elected who loathe one other and cannot remain civil let alone cooperate Please note Jade is speaking very much for himself there and he has made his feelings very clear. He does not speak for me nor, so far as I am aware, anyone else in this. IZ The fact you take any and all oppotunities to make sly remarks/innuendos against Jade at any/every oppotunity kinda makes your personal feelings/maturity real clear. @ Jade Constantine : I personally think you have gotton a bit of a raw deal, for starters you have to deal with some of the most immature players/Alliance and you have become the subject of many a witch hunt however it's partially your own fault. You always rise to the bait, you never let it slide, always gotta shove your point down people's throats which just irritates and wind them up. The CSM has 'failed' (in my eyes) becuase there is no true accountability and let's face it, you get what you paid for and in this case we got a bunch of un-paid bickering emotionally stunted net nerd's invovled in what affect's them soly who have clearly bitten more than they can chew. I voted for that young lady with a long name, starting with an A (I think, not seen much of her at all), poor thing, shes had to be sidelined whilst you children moanded and groaned. If there was no free trip, would anyone bother trying for the next council?
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.21 13:10:00 - [70] Originally by: Candice Dice If there was no free trip, would anyone bother trying for the next council? I don't see why everyone's so hung up on the trip. A trip spent in committee rooms is hardly a trip worth fighting for. I mean yes, you get to go clubbing in a foreign country, which is nifty I guess(though I imagine it'll be a ***** to order drinks), but to me the primary appeal is that it's two days spent with people who I can talk about Eve with without having to compare it to WoW. Well, that and having an opportunity to get an answer to what the heck the devs are thinking on some issues straight from the horse's mouth. But don't think that just because it resembles a vacation that it actually will be. ------------------ Fix the forums!
IloveRickAstley	Posted - 2008.09.22 11:24:00 - [71] i would like a classy csm with good dance moves who likes kittens AND puppies, then we she could come over and watch starwars and eat hotpockets with me, it would be true internet love
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.22 21:20:00 - [72] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I don't see why everyone's so hung up on the trip. A trip spent in committee rooms is hardly a trip worth fighting for. I mean yes, you get to go clubbing in a foreign country, which is nifty I guess(though I imagine it'll be a ***** to order drinks), but to me the primary appeal is that it's two days spent with people who I can talk about Eve with without having to compare it to WoW. Well, that and having an opportunity to get an answer to what the heck the devs are thinking on some issues straight from the horse's mouth. But don't think that just because it resembles a vacation that it actually will be. It's not a vacation. It's a lot of work. You're spending all day in an overheated office talking about spaceships. Depending on the time of year there's either "ok" weather and no night time (The sun doesn't set in June), or really horrible weather with very little daylight. You're going to lose a few hours of every Sunday when there's a meeting and have to pay a ton of attention to threads you may or may not care about. Really there's nothing vacationy about it. There's a lot of work involved. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Latex Sandals	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:01:00 - [73] Originally by: Jade Constantine I certainly feel strongly that I literally cannot post ANYTHING here without being abused, insulted, flamed and trolled at the moment. I'm sure that this is not a result of any abuse, insults, flaming or trolling that you do to anybody that disagrees with you. Reap what you sow. I now expect a reply that includes details of Jade's fantasies about my rear end; Jade's psycho-therapy sessions (touch the doll Jade); and perhaps veiled allusions to Jade's sexual persuasion - as is his usual reply when somebody is mean to him.
SOFcode Z777 Caldari Human Enhancement Tech.	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:58:00 - [74] Originally by: Latex Sandals I now expect a reply that includes details of Jade's fantasies about my rear end; Jade's psycho-therapy sessions (touch the doll Jade); and perhaps veiled allusions to Jade's sexual persuasion - as is his usual reply when somebody is mean to him. And this is supposed to be the community asking CSM to represent them with class? Talking about hypocrisy tbh... Originally by: Avon Realising that BoB would certainly take over 0.0, CCP wisely added factional warfare so that we don't get bored and can subsequently take over Empire space too.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:34:00 - [75] Edited by: Aodha Khan on 24/09/2008 12:34:05 CCP needs to weed out those which are causing a lack of progression within the CSM right NOW or it is doomed to fail. I suggest starting with Darius JOHNSON. Did the CSM members actually have to sign anything to concur with a set of rules for behaviour on the CSM? Paratwa Recruitment
Ephemeral Waves Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.24 14:50:00 - [76] Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 24/09/2008 12:34:05 CCP needs to weed out those which are causing a lack of progression within the CSM right NOW or it is doomed to fail. I suggest starting with Darius JOHNSON. Did the CSM members actually have to sign anything to concur with a set of rules for behaviour on the CSM? I agree. Get rid of the biggest trouble-maker, and the worst mudslinger in the group: Jade Contantine.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:46:00 - [77] Originally by: Aodha Khan Did the CSM members actually have to sign anything to concur with a set of rules for behaviour on the CSM? The CSM document describes that the CSM has to go by a high social standard. So everybody should have read it. But nothing was signed.
Kalahari Wayrest Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.24 16:29:00 - [78] Edited by: Kalahari Wayrest on 24/09/2008 16:30:01 Quote: The fact you take any and all oppotunities to make sly remarks/innuendos against Jade at any/every oppotunity kinda makes your personal feelings/maturity real clear. Not really, or not in this instance. It seems to me that she's simply saying she doesn't loathe anyone in the CSM. __________________________ Indulge Me Consider Yourself Indulged - Immy ♥ Wow immy scored - Xorus
Santaria Boon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.24 17:00:00 - [79] Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 24/09/2008 12:34:05 CCP needs to weed out those which are causing a lack of progression within the CSM right NOW or it is doomed to fail. I suggest starting with Darius JOHNSON. Did the CSM members actually have to sign anything to concur with a set of rules for behaviour on the CSM? Darius has done nothing but cooperate with the CSM. Don't take my word for is go ahead and ask the rest of the council. I'm sure he'd respond to this direct and personal attack but it seems he's held to a different standard by the moderation team than everyone else. Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.09.24 23:39:00 - [80] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Odet Show some class when posting. > Somebody throws an accusation at you, let it slide, don't insult or accuse right back. > If a fellow CSM has a different stance on something don't bicker with them on the forums, do it privately away from the public eye. You're a team, act like one. > Your personal stances should stay off the forums, be more diplomatic and neutral in discussion. Showing pros and cons to an idea, instead of clearly siding. As far as I'm concerned the whole CSM idea was a bad idea in the first place. Atleast try and make the best of your existence and act accordingly. You're embarassing yourselves and the community. ^ The above wall of text is my opinion, take it or don't it's there. ^ Thank you for expressing "The Community"'s opinion. And here we have Darius. A fine example of what NOT to elect to the CSM if it's ever to be anything. True, if e-peen were worth anything he'd be the richest man in the world, but unfortunately it's currency that only accumulates in EVE. When the next election comes (and it's due soon) vote ANYONE but a goon.
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.09.24 23:44:00 - [81] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Odet Show some class when posting. > Somebody throws an accusation at you, let it slide, don't insult or accuse right back. > If a fellow CSM has a different stance on something don't bicker with them on the forums, do it privately away from the public eye. You're a team, act like one. > Your personal stances should stay off the forums, be more diplomatic and neutral in discussion. Showing pros and cons to an idea, instead of clearly siding. As far as I'm concerned the whole CSM idea was a bad idea in the first place. Atleast try and make the best of your existence and act accordingly. You're embarassing yourselves and the community. ^ The above wall of text is my opinion, take it or don't it's there. ^ For what its worth I don't think the CSM "idea" was bad. But the reality is we did get people elected who loathe one other and cannot remain civil let alone cooperate - and given Eve's political climate its hardly surprising that happens since the game is built around grudges and vendettas and dark brutality. Whatever happens in the future the reality is some of those people will keep getting re-elected due to alliance voting blocks, so yes, its a problem and I'm honestly not sure how you deal with it. You can certainly make sure YOU pick candidates you believe are capable of turning the other cheek - but you can't stop other players electing their own choice of knife-wielding drama-merchants if it pleases them. The problem is that the CSM ended up composed disproportionately of 0.0 "leaders". The CSM should have different rules of eligibility next time. Divide up the CSM "seats" into districts, so that there can be proportionate representation across the various places players play. IE: candidates will be running for a seat to represent Empire players, a seat to represent 0.0, a seat to represent lowsec, and a certain number of "at large" that are open everywhere, etc. CCP screens candidates for eligibility, they can determine where their activities primarily are.
Ephemeral Waves Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.25 00:23:00 - [82] Originally by: Richard Angevian The problem is that the CSM ended up composed disproportionately of 0.0 "leaders". Do you have any idea who the members are? There are 9 seats. Only 3 are from 0.0. How does that have anything to do with the problems in the CSM?
Latex Sandals	Posted - 2008.09.25 00:28:00 - [83] Originally by: Jade Constantine Who the ** are you? And who the are your friends? And what exactly don't you like? Important questions that need answering if your post isn't just another trashy nonsense green-eyed exhibition of numptydom. Oops whats that lassy? As a CSM delegate I should be more empathic to complete **s? that shit to be honest. Morons like you deserve to be thrown down the virtual stairs with your bullshit baggage following shortly afterwards. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but then you did kind of ask for it by posting a load of crap on the forums. Action -> Consequence. Its pretty simple. Still butthurt that I said rude things to you? Well. Wardec or shut the up you spineless handler. Originally by:** Richard Angevian A fine example of what NOT to elect to the CSM if it's ever to be anything. When the next election comes (and it's due soon) vote ANYONE but a Star Faction.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.09.25 08:01:00 - [84] Originally by: Santaria Boon Darius has done nothing but cooperate with the CSM. Don't take my word for is go ahead and ask the rest of the council. I'm sure he'd respond to this direct and personal attack but it seems he's held to a different standard by the moderation team than everyone else. His poor attitude is clear for all to see who can read these forums. Its not suitable for a member of the CSM. If you cannot see this then your blinded by your association to him. Paratwa Recruitment
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.25 12:02:00 - [85] Originally by: Richard Angevian The problem is that the CSM ended up composed disproportionately of 0.0 "leaders". I'm not convinced thats actually the problem so much that the "0.0 leaders" it ended up with all came from the same kinda philosophical block without much healthy debate or alternative viewpoints between them. + We have had the problem that the "0.0 Knowledge" expressed by the "experts" has too often been gone unchallenged by rigorous debate and left to stand. Some of the non 0.0 CSM's on the council have been a little too hesitant about going against the stated prevailing wisdom of the 0.0 CSM's on nullsec issues and this is something I feel to be a mistake given Eve's interconnected single server nature. + Things have always gotten too personalized too quickly. I've certainly tried to be a counter to the big-alliance status quo vote but its very easy to stereotype my position as being some whining wannabe that simply wants to damage 0.0 empires because "I'm apparently not good enough to run one." (rather than seeing the input for what it is, being the promotion of genuine gameplay options for smaller organizations and roving playstyle). The tendency to personalize these things ruins decent debate and to be fair, its something I've tended to do as well by representing the other side of the issue as lazy status quo worshiping bloat-interests that just want to defend their own backyard. But I guess thats partisan politics baby. And the problem is you don't typically find out anything about the reality of 0.0 warfare without getting passionate about the whole thing so you come to table either without knowledge - or with knowledge tempered by bias against the other side of the argument. Quote: The CSM should have different rules of eligibility next time. Divide up the CSM "seats" into districts, so that there can be proportionate representation across the various places players play. IE: candidates will be running for a seat to represent Empire players, a seat to represent 0.0, a seat to represent lowsec, and a certain number of "at large" that are open everywhere, etc. CCP screens candidates for eligibility, they can determine where their activities primarily are. Thats an interesting idea really: be a devil of a thing to sort out the details for though - you'd need some kind of objective (re ccp sponsored/independent oversight committee to decide the electoral boundaries - maybe mr Ingthorsson could help again?) But yeah, if it came down to something like (off the top of my head) 1-3 0.0 seats (contested by 0.0 powers) 1-3 Empire seats (contested by mission runners, pve'ers, empire fighters) 1-3 lowsec seats (contested by pirates, bounty hunters, mercs, explorers etc) 1-3 Random indeps (contest by whoever felt they could make a special interest message) You might well get a more interesting council all round. Worth talking about certainly. Though of course the flaw in system would likely be that a big 0.0 power could just split its vote again and get a candidate in for 0.0 AND for one of the others to double up its CSM power. The only real cure for that one is an end to voting apathy and ensure as many people as humanly possible are encouraged to vote. Or make voting mandatory on the login panel - you have to pick a candidate (or click abstain) to get into the game. That also might work ... nothing ever burns down by itself
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.25 17:07:00 - [86] Originally by: Jade Constantine Or make voting mandatory on the login panel - you have to pick a candidate (or click abstain) to get into the game. That also might work Not really - you'd wind up with random CSMs, not good ones. The current crew, internecine warfare aside, has been fairly effective and representative of all the various types of players in the game. I don't trust that the 89% of the population who doesn't care would elect a group as good. Also, it's never a good idea to make people do work that they don't want to do in order to be able to play a game that they're paying you for access to. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.25 17:53:00 - [87] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Jade Constantine Or make voting mandatory on the login panel - you have to pick a candidate (or click abstain) to get into the game. That also might work Not really - you'd wind up with random CSMs, not good ones. The current crew, internecine warfare aside, has been fairly effective and representative of all the various types of players in the game. I don't trust that the 89% of the population who doesn't care would elect a group as good. Also, it's never a good idea to make people do work that they don't want to do in order to be able to play a game that they're paying you for access to. Thats what the "abstain" button would be for. ... nothing ever burns down by itself
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.25 21:04:00 - [88] Dividing seats on the CSM by district (or however else you want to) is really an unworkable idea! Given that many players have multiple characters, how would you (and who would) deem X player eligible for running to represent X district? Or maybe you were thinking of the CHARACTERS coming from these areas (forgetting that players who run characters have multiple ones). Making the CSM form from characters from certain districts on a quota basis just silly when you think about it. Afterall, its not the characters that discuss issues in real life with CCP, or get together in CSM meetings- its real players. Having districts etc doesn't avoid certain types of players, or make the resultant CSM anymore diverse/representative in any reality. Take care, Arithron Better to be a live dog than a dead lion...
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.25 23:14:00 - [89] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Not really - you'd wind up with random CSMs, not good ones. The current crew, internecine warfare aside, has been fairly effective and representative of all the various types of players in the game. I don't trust that the 89% of the population who doesn't care would elect a group as good. Also, it's never a good idea to make people do work that they don't want to do in order to be able to play a game that they're paying you for access to. Thats what the "abstain" button would be for. That helps with the former problem, but not with the latter. If real elections aren't blocking people's recreation in the vast majority of the world, why should we actively be seeking to extend fake elections to that level? Angering your customer base by making them do unnecessary things they don't want to do is a terrible business practice. ------------------ Fix the forums!
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.26 01:02:00 - [90] Originally by: Jade Constantine I'm not convinced thats actually the problem so much that the "0.0 leaders" it ended up with all came from the same kinda philosophical block without much healthy debate or alternative viewpoints between them. What, much like the Empire people having the same general concerns because they all encounter the same types of problems in Empire? Geographic proximity leads to the same problems experienced,i.e., if it is cold, people put on warm clothing when they go out. I somewhat agree with you about the levels of healthy debate but that seems endemic to all CSM discussions rather than a particular grouping of problems. Quote: + We have had the problem that the "0.0 Knowledge" expressed by the "experts" has too often been gone unchallenged by rigorous debate and left to stand. "Nice" "Kevin" "Williamson" "approach" "to" "writing" "there". That's the sort of approach that gets you flak. Handily, I've pointed it out to you now so you should rectify that and, no doubt, get less flak. Quote: Some of the non 0.0 CSM's on the council have been a little too hesitant about going against the stated prevailing wisdom of the 0.0 CSM's on nullsec issues and this is something I feel to be a mistake given Eve's interconnected single server nature. Again, probably a consequence of too little debate and discussion. Perhaps those adopting an issue could start by outlining the problem and leave the proposed fix to a subsequent post. Once the problem is clearly understood, things should go more smoothly. Quote: The tendency to personalize these things ruins decent debate and to be fair, its something I've tended to do as well by representing the other side of the issue as lazy status quo worshiping bloat-interests that just want to defend their own backyard. But I guess thats partisan politics baby. And the problem is you don't typically find out anything about the reality of 0.0 warfare without getting passionate about the whole thing so you come to table either without knowledge - or with knowledge tempered by bias against the other side of the argument. I have no idea what you are trying to say here. This paragraph makes no sense put against the rest of your post. Please elucidate. Quote: 1-3 0.0 seats (contested by 0.0 powers) 1-3 Empire seats (contested by mission runners, pve'ers, empire fighters) 1-3 lowsec seats (contested by pirates, bounty hunters, mercs, explorers etc) 1-3 Random indeps (contest by whoever felt they could make a special interest message) You might well get a more interesting council all round. Worth talking about certainly. Though of course the flaw in system would likely be that a big 0.0 power could just split its vote again and get a candidate in for 0.0 AND for one of the others to double up its CSM power. The only real cure for that one is an end to voting apathy and ensure as many people as humanly possible are encouraged to vote. Ugh, no. That system creates elitism where there shouldn't be any. One man, one vote and all that. Quote: Or make voting mandatory on the login panel - you have to pick a candidate (or click abstain) to get into the game. That also might work Pretty good idea. I'd support that for the next elections. It might need a shade of reworking, i.e., people get a few chances to vote at login, giving them time to look at the candidates. Or something, Iunno.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.30 13:26:00 - [91] The bottom line is that if you don't want muppets on the CSM, then you shouldn't vote for Doctor Bunsen. It really is that simple. Of course, it does require a little bit of research amongst the voters to work out who the less suitable candidates are, but then it's part of the fundamental nature of democaracy that the system won't work without an informed electorate.
Miz Cenuij	Posted - 2008.10.04 01:01:00 - [92] I agree with the OP, CSM's have been biased and corrupt since its inception. "Men are going to die... and i'm going to kill them"
White Ronin Gallente NeuralCore LLP	Posted - 2008.10.04 03:26:00 - [93] Wish they would end the embarrassing experiment. CSM show their ass and get nothing actually accomplished. The only thing that I am curious about is how long ccp will front this drama dream. Please disband and forget it was ever here. --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. "
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.04 20:22:00 - [94] Actually, the CSM gets things brought to the attention of the CCP devs. You just don't see anything concrete, due to a lag phase as the ideas are used to shape future expansions and patches. The CSM has brought a large number of issues to CCP's attention this round, and its obvious from meetings with CCP that the CSM is appreciated and valued. There are always doomsayers...but I find its usually better to try and be positive and constructive. If I didn't think the CSM made a difference, I wouldn't be running again this voting round...but I am running again. Vote wisely, make a difference. Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron) Better to be a live dog than a dead lion...
KAELA MENSHA	Posted - 2008.10.12 23:23:00 - [95] posted by elric of gallach The problem with the csm as i see it. Isn't that it hasn't done anything. But that it hasn't been seen to have done anything. CCP has not given it a chance to validate itself. And as such needs to do something visual, for the rank and file.

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