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Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.09.24 18:39:00 - [1] Hey, first post in this section of the forums, and have a question that hopefully someone will be willing to answer. I have been trading with capital under a billion on an alt for 2 months or so, and have doubled my money, but used it to buy ships for pvp, reason being I couldn't work out how to reinvest it in the market to make money, or rather, make more money - all I would have done is have larger buy orders up (as I had maxed out my number of orders after a week of research), but the rate of earning would be the same, so I made the same or very similar profit per week on 800m as on 200m (good week 50-100m profit). So my question is this, what kinds of things can you do with a few billion on the market, so that you are making more of it work for you at any given time? A subsidiary question is this, how am I doing in terms of earn rate? Cheers.
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.24 18:47:00 - [2] #1 Any amount of profit is (to quote Martha): 'a good thing'... so, Good job! #2 You're essentially asking what to with your money, a notoriously dangerous move that usually ends up with the asker bruised and bloodied (IN GAME) on the side of the market highway... never to trade the same again! Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.09.24 19:43:00 - [3] Originally by: Chomin H'ak #1 Any amount of profit is (to quote Martha): 'a good thing'... so, Good job! #2 You're essentially asking what to with your money, a notoriously dangerous move that usually ends up with the asker bruised and bloodied (IN GAME) on the side of the market highway... never to trade the same again! I am asking how people trade with 10 figure sums, I know what to do with my money below this point, but above it, I don't gain any more profit (in absolute terms, so my % gain actually goes down as it were). This is the question that I am hoping someone is willing to answer.
Mephistocles Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.09.24 19:56:00 - [4] Originally by: Captator I am asking how people trade with 10 figure sums, I know what to do with my money below this point, but above it, I don't gain any more profit (in absolute terms, so my % gain actually goes down as it were). This is the question that I am hoping someone is willing to answer. If you can't make more isk by expanding vertically you have to expand horizontally (ie trade a larger number of goods).
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.24 20:06:00 - [5] Looks like you've found one or two items and you basically control the market because there's not enough supply & demand and therefore you've saturated it. Basically as Mephistocles said, you need to start doing the same thing either with items that have a larger market (take the most extreme example: minerals) or a higher value per item (ie battleships). Either way, you just need moar! Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.09.24 20:09:00 - [6] Originally by: Mephistocles If you can't make more isk by expanding vertically you have to expand horizontally (ie trade a larger number of goods). To clarify, I have 40 buy orders across 40 goods, ranging in value from under 100k to 10m. So is the only way to actually work my money to trade on higher value or much, much larger volume items?
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.09.24 20:39:00 - [7] Originally by: Captator Originally by: Mephistocles If you can't make more isk by expanding vertically you have to expand horizontally (ie trade a larger number of goods). To clarify, I have 40 buy orders across 40 goods, ranging in value from under 100k to 10m. So is the only way to actually work my money to trade on higher value or much, much larger volume items? Yes, or increase your trading skills to allow you to trade more.
Veritech knight	Posted - 2008.09.24 20:55:00 - [8] the easy answer is to trade things that cost more (like ships, then mods, etc) vk
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.09.24 21:04:00 - [9] Is there any advantage in having a large buy order for something, eg: 10k instead of 1k?
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.25 02:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Captator Is there any advantage in having a large buy order for something, eg: 10k instead of 1k? Yes, ten times the volume with the same profit margin means ten times the profit. A lot of goods just don't scale well. So you have to decide how long to keep the smaller trading opportunities.

Fumbles	Posted - 2008.09.25 08:57:00 - [11] The next step for you I'd say would be to train up the Margin Trading skill to lvl 4. You will allow yourself to have a MUCH larger value of buy orders for the same amount of money invested = more buy orders being filled = more profit.
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.09.25 09:09:00 - [12] Trading aside, you could look at investing some of your idle ISK in other traders and IPO's. Risky of course, but allows you to keep doing what your doing - and sounds like your doing just fine. Sounds like you want to scale up your trading into the tens of billions of ISK - you probably won't get any specific advice for obvious reasons. Other than that, there's some good advice above. Keep it up. Perth Eve Players \| Eve Web Design \| Eve on Loconut
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.09.25 09:28:00 - [13] Edited by: Captator on 25/09/2008 09:30:36 Originally by: Fumbles The next step for you I'd say would be to train up the Margin Trading skill to lvl 4. You will allow yourself to have a MUCH larger value of buy orders for the same amount of money invested = more buy orders being filled = more profit. So do you reckon it is worth me stopping training on Cap to train up the alt for a bit? (is currently an 800k SP alt on one of the spare slots). If yes, how far do you reckon I take the training? Thanks for the advice so far guys. I have found the ship market so far impenetrable, due to the incredible rate of 0.01 isk undercutting, I can't really keep up, is this less of an issue outside the more major trade hubs? Edit: So the margin trading skill allows me to put up a higher value of buy orders than I actually have money for, what happens if they fill sufficiently that I don't have enough capital to buy the stock they sell to me?
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.25 09:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Captator Edit: So the margin trading skill allows me to put up a higher value of buy orders than I actually have money for, what happens if they fill sufficiently that I don't have enough capital to buy the stock they sell to me? The order will cancel its never happened to me but going off info ive heard it will partially fill what you can afford. So it no major loss, just the broker fees you used to set it up. + you are then limiting your other buy orders and they might cancel to due to lack of funds
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.25 13:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Fumbles The next step for you I'd say would be to train up the Margin Trading skill to lvl 4. You will allow yourself to have a MUCH larger value of buy orders for the same amount of money invested = more buy orders being filled = more profit. This seems to be very bad advice based on the situation the OP has laid out. He basically doesn't seem to know how to scale up, which means he used to be able to trade with all his money and make big profits. Now he no longer seems to be able to use all his money to make profit. Thus telling him to get margin trading so he has yet more available money doesn't seem to be aimed at solving his problem at all and instead a generic answer most people on these forums think will solve all problems. I can tell you for absolutely certain, margin trading does not help with this problem. If you have more money than you know how to trade with margin trading doesn't do anything at all. What you really need to do is figure out how to invest more money into trading. First, 40 buy orders is not enough. Not even close. Second, you really shouldn't be having issues until you reach 10-15 bill in buy orders with 3-10 bill in sell orders. Up until this point I really thought it was fairly smooth sailing. Afterwards it starts taking a lot more orders across multiple rregions and multiple alts, which means a massive increase in time required. Or you have to move into non-trading profit generating areas, which you will have to find out for yourself.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.09.25 13:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Shadarle First, 40 buy orders is not enough. Not even close. How many should I be aiming for? This ties back into my question as to whether it is worth stopping training on my main for a bit to train this alt up. Originally by: Shadarle Second, you really shouldn't be having issues until you reach 10-15 bill in buy orders with 3-10 bill in sell orders. Up until this point I really thought it was fairly smooth sailing. Afterwards it starts taking a lot more orders across multiple rregions and multiple alts, which means a massive increase in time required. Or you have to move into non-trading profit generating areas, which you will have to find out for yourself. I can put more money into orders, and have bigger buy and sell orders, but it doesn't increase my rate of earning, i just have to put new orders up less often. From this and what your post implies, am I trading on goods that don't have sufficient isk flow through them, if the earn/traded item rate isn't scaling up from 10m --> 100m (example figures) invested?
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.25 14:15:00 - [17] Originally by: Captator How many should I be aiming for? This ties back into my question as to whether it is worth stopping training on my main for a bit to train this alt up. I'd say at the very least: 100, which equates to at least Trade IV / Retail V / Wholesale III. Originally by: Captator I can put more money into orders, and have bigger buy and sell orders, but it doesn't increase my rate of earning, i just have to put new orders up less often. From this and what your post implies, am I trading on goods that don't have sufficient isk flow through them, if the earn/traded item rate isn't scaling up from 10m --> 100m (example figures) invested? Precisely. While there may be less margin per item, if it has more volume, they will trade faster. Doing 100 trades each earning 100k is still equal to one trade doing 10m... if you get the same ROI in the same period of time, then simply pump up the quantities. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Ordon Gundar Caldari Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2008.09.25 16:00:00 - [18] Diversify. Diversification is what you need when you want to spend more money to make more money. You simply have to expand your portfolio. If you have the skills, and can run plenty of orders at once (Tycoon maybe), then buy and sell anything that runs a profit that is worth your time. Fly fast..Rats Die..Buy Low..Sell High- Ordon Gundar, CEO of Gundars Independent Traders - Space (G.I.T.S)
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2008.09.25 16:26:00 - [19] I'd recommend scaling down your volume of trade in your few items and expanding the amount of items you trade. Then scale each one of those upward. When you saturate those parts, scale it all down down again and expand into more items. People often fall into the situation in which their current activities takes precedence over expansion, so the expansion fails due to not enough funds or time. By reducing the load on your current operation you can devote more time and ISK into expanding into new areas. If the new area fails, you can then just go back full time into what you where doing until you get the same situation again. If it works, then you have two thing you can expand at the same time, until they become saturated. Amarr for Life
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.25 16:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 25/09/2008 16:58:11 Originally by: Shadarle First, 40 buy orders is not enough. Not even close. At his isk range, 40 works. More would be better, but not necessary. For example, if he vastly reduced his transaction fees (broker fees near 0% and taxes down to 0.5%), daytrading would be a valid option. It doesn't require a lot of slots. Just be aware that you probably will need 4 or so orders per market to daytrade the really active markets. That means you can daytrade say half a dozen markets with plenty of margin for a little long term trading. If you want to daytrade 40 active markets, well, that won't work on 40 orders. Added: I see he wants to know what a few billion will do. Yea, more orders. Sorry, Shad.

Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.09.25 17:36:00 - [21] Originally by: SencneS I'd recommend scaling down your volume of trade in your few items and expanding the amount of items you trade. Then scale each one of those upward. When you saturate those parts, scale it all down down again and expand into more items. As I said earlier Originally by: Captator To clarify, I have 40 buy orders across 40 goods, ranging in value from under 100k to 10m. So is the only way to actually work my money to trade on higher value or much, much larger volume items? Does what you have said still apply now?
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.09.25 17:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Tasko Pal At his isk range, 40 works. More would be better, but not necessary. For example, if he vastly reduced his transaction fees (broker fees near 0% and taxes down to 0.5%), daytrading would be a valid option. It doesn't require a lot of slots. Just be aware that you probably will need 4 or so orders per market to daytrade the really active markets. That means you can daytrade say half a dozen markets with plenty of margin for a little long term trading. If you want to daytrade 40 active markets, well, that won't work on 40 orders. Added: I see he wants to know what a few billion will do. Yea, more orders. Sorry, Shad. What do you mean by daytrading? Thanks for the further advice guys .
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.25 20:59:00 - [23] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 25/09/2008 20:59:57 Originally by: Captator Originally by: Tasko Pal At his isk range, 40 works. More would be better, but not necessary. For example, if he vastly reduced his transaction fees (broker fees near 0% and taxes down to 0.5%), daytrading would be a valid option. It doesn't require a lot of slots. Just be aware that you probably will need 4 or so orders per market to daytrade the really active markets. That means you can daytrade say half a dozen markets with plenty of margin for a little long term trading. If you want to daytrade 40 active markets, well, that won't work on 40 orders. Added: I see he wants to know what a few billion will do. Yea, more orders. Sorry, Shad. What do you mean by daytrading? Thanks for the further advice guys . It's a vague term. I mean trade in something with a really high volume and activity with more or less balanced buy and sell activity (similar volume of buys and sells to existing book orders). And only holding a position when you are actively trading. You might need two or more orders on each side of the trade because of the 0.01 game (outbidding each other frequently by the smallest amount possible). But that's really only effective if you can match or beat the margins of the other traders in the market.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.25 21:24:00 - [24] I hear people going "diverify" "different products" "more orders" etc etc Is it wrong that I have 2 or 3 billion worth of orders in 5 or so products in different regions?
Wen Deivar	Posted - 2008.09.25 21:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Captator Originally by: Mephistocles If you can't make more isk by expanding vertically you have to expand horizontally (ie trade a larger number of goods). To clarify, I have 40 buy orders across 40 goods, ranging in value from under 100k to 10m. So is the only way to actually work my money to trade on higher value or much, much larger volume items? people trading with 10 figure sums generally have 100+ open orders that they work with also try trading on higher value items because for example trading almost any T2 mod worht ~1mil can give you 100K profit per module + large volume sales and i doubt your 100K items are making you the same kind of isk
Wen Deivar	Posted - 2008.09.25 21:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Brock Nelson I hear people going "diverify" "different products" "more orders" etc etc Is it wrong that I have 2 or 3 billion worth of orders in 5 or so products in different regions? in this case you are diversifying your location most people don't do it because to update orders you'll have to fly over different regions of house a lot of market alts on your accounts, so instead they diversify the products
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.09.26 17:13:00 - [27] Originally by: Wen Deivar people trading with 10 figure sums generally have 100+ open orders that they work with also try trading on higher value items because for example trading almost any T2 mod worht ~1mil can give you 100K profit per module + large volume sales and i doubt your 100K items are making you the same kind of isk What kind of volumes do you consider 'large' ?
Fumbles	Posted - 2008.09.26 23:51:00 - [28] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Fumbles The next step for you I'd say would be to train up the Margin Trading skill to lvl 4. You will allow yourself to have a MUCH larger value of buy orders for the same amount of money invested = more buy orders being filled = more profit. This seems to be very bad advice based on the situation the OP has laid out. He basically doesn't seem to know how to scale up, which means he used to be able to trade with all his money and make big profits. Now he no longer seems to be able to use all his money to make profit. Thus telling him to get margin trading so he has yet more available money doesn't seem to be aimed at solving his problem at all and instead a generic answer most people on these forums think will solve all problems. I can tell you for absolutely certain, margin trading does not help with this problem. If you have more money than you know how to trade with margin trading doesn't do anything at all. What you really need to do is figure out how to invest more money into trading. First, 40 buy orders is not enough. Not even close. Second, you really shouldn't be having issues until you reach 10-15 bill in buy orders with 3-10 bill in sell orders. Up until this point I really thought it was fairly smooth sailing. Afterwards it starts taking a lot more orders across multiple rregions and multiple alts, which means a massive increase in time required. Or you have to move into non-trading profit generating areas, which you will have to find out for yourself. It isn't smooth sailing to reach 10-15b buy and 3-10b sell any more. It will take quite a while to get to those numbers for most people. Margin trading would massively reduce the time it takes to reach this level. Of course the OP will still need to research the market, find those juicy gaps between buy and sell orders (checking volume of course)and increase the number of orders he can have open. To the OP: best of luck - I'm sure you'll be 0.01 undercutting me in no time :-)
Nui' Va	Posted - 2008.09.27 04:29:00 - [29] as what i can see, beening new to this part of the game... you need to place more buy orders, or find better profitable items. having a 100 buy order or a 1000 buy order, doesn't give you a higher profit, you have to focus on buying the most of the items sold, to get the highest profit. i have no idear of how good your earn rate is, as i understand, its good that you can manage to get a profit :) i recently started out with 100mil in tradeing, and been doing fairly well i think. in the last 24h i have made roughly 25mil. so i'm up to ~180mil after 5 days.


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