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Typhoon versus Maelstrom in L4 missions

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Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.01 07:35:00 - [31] Originally by: elnukeo Edited by: elnukeo on 01/10/2008 07:00:40 I've used both the mael with arty and the typhoon with 4 cruise and 3 arty and 1 drone link. i am using the typhoon now due to isk issues but as far as i can tell the maelstrom is a better. I have a lil trouble with some missions where i aggro the entire room and my typhoons armor tank cant handle it..as my mael setup i easily handle it with 3 gyros and 1 tracking computer. Shield tanking ftw with PvE. My mael setup is 2 shield boost amps, XL booster, 2 hardeners..(cap mods) All t2..also i think i use 1400mm but i forgot I've long considered putting together a 4 cruise, 4 1400, 5 sentry shield tanked phoon... but I don't have the billion isk that's required. :-/ -Liang --
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.10.01 10:35:00 - [32] Originally by: Jukhta Mein I've looked at both ships in EFT briefly, and realised - to my dismay - that a 3x gyro maelstrom does only 511 dps with t2 1200mms loaded with phased plasma and 5 t2 hammerheads. A t2 1200mm + arby cruise missile phoon and 5 t2 orgres deals 537 with my skills, but I'll have to compromise some low slots to be able to fit it. The maelstrom has 400 defense efficiency compared to the typhoon's 300. Under these circumstances, which would be a more efficient mission-running ship to go for? Also, which of the 2 ships do most higher-skilled minnie mission runners pick? I know I know minmatar suck for mission-running but given the high investments I have in the race these two ships are effectively what I (and many others) have to pick from. Any advice? If you got really good Missile/Drone/Turret skills the phoon is better. If you are mostly turret specced the mael is better. The vargur beats both though (even though it is the worst of the marauders). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Strill	Posted - 2008.10.01 10:42:00 - [33] Edited by: Strill on 01/10/2008 10:42:56 The maelstrom is better. Put 4x Ogre IIs (or 3x ogre IIs and 2x Hammerhead IIs) on your maelstrom instead of 5x hammerhead IIs then see how much DPS you do.
Strill	Posted - 2008.10.01 10:44:00 - [34] Originally by: FT Diomedes Why sentry drones? Because they are awesome! Because they don't have travel time so they actually get to inflict their DPS. But then once the enemy travels to you they can't do any dps anymore.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.10.01 10:57:00 - [35] Originally by: Strill Originally by: FT Diomedes Why sentry drones? Because they are awesome! Because they don't have travel time so they actually get to inflict their DPS. But then once the enemy travels to you they can't do any dps anymore. That's when you pop out the flight of Tech II mediums. Anything that gets so close that your sentry drones cannot hit it will be best dealt with by Tech II mediums. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Jukhta Mein	Posted - 2008.10.01 14:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Jukhta Mein I've looked at both ships in EFT briefly, and realised - to my dismay - that a 3x gyro maelstrom does only 511 dps with t2 1200mms loaded with phased plasma and 5 t2 hammerheads. A t2 1200mm + arby cruise missile phoon and 5 t2 orgres deals 537 with my skills, but I'll have to compromise some low slots to be able to fit it. The maelstrom has 400 defense efficiency compared to the typhoon's 300. Under these circumstances, which would be a more efficient mission-running ship to go for? Also, which of the 2 ships do most higher-skilled minnie mission runners pick? I know I know minmatar suck for mission-running but given the high investments I have in the race these two ships are effectively what I (and many others) have to pick from. Any advice? If you got really good Missile/Drone/Turret skills the phoon is better. If you are mostly turret specced the mael is better. The vargur beats both though (even though it is the worst of the marauders). What about the machariel?
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.10.01 20:35:00 - [37] The Vargur is still better than the Machariel. The key thing with the Machariel is that it looks cool. Before I trained for the Vargur I spent about 4 hours in EFT planning various fits for the Vargur, Machariel, Maelstrom, Fleet Issue Tempest, Tempest and Typhoon. After exhaustive EFT warrioring, I decided that the Vargur and the Typhoon were hands down the best Minmatar PvE ships, with the Vargur having an edge (and being easier to train for than the Typhoon). Flying them in missions since then has convinced me of this. The Vargur is the best a Minmatar pilot can do for Level 4 missions. I expect it will be the best for 0.0 ratting as well, once I get it down to 0.0. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Jukhta Mein	Posted - 2008.10.02 11:12:00 - [38] Originally by: FT Diomedes The Vargur is still better than the Machariel. The key thing with the Machariel is that it looks cool. Before I trained for the Vargur I spent about 4 hours in EFT planning various fits for the Vargur, Machariel, Maelstrom, Fleet Issue Tempest, Tempest and Typhoon. After exhaustive EFT warrioring, I decided that the Vargur and the Typhoon were hands down the best Minmatar PvE ships, with the Vargur having an edge (and being easier to train for than the Typhoon). Flying them in missions since then has convinced me of this. The Vargur is the best a Minmatar pilot can do for Level 4 missions. I expect it will be the best for 0.0 ratting as well, once I get it down to 0.0. Hmm I don't doubt the credibility of your words but towards the end of the first page of this thread, I listed 3 points as to why the typhoon is seemingly slower than the maelstrom in practice. So I'm quite curious as to why you and others maintain the typhoon to be a decent PvE ship...
Rajetta	Posted - 2008.10.02 12:57:00 - [39] I've been using a phoon for quite a while now in lv4 missions and nobody has posted my setup yet. 4x arby cruise 4x 720 arty II 4x cap recharger II 2x LAR II 1x dmg cntrl II 2/3 active hardners II 2/3 passive hardners II 5x hammerhead II 5x ogre II 3x ccc Rigs I can permarun the LAR's which can tank almost anything.This also helps you to take FULL room agro so that your drones can safely **** without getting popped.And using the 720's to easily popp cruisers and do a fair bit of damage to bs.Also they will instapopp frigs coming directly towards you between 15km and 40km depending on ammo. I will use the 720's/cruise to kill all cruisers quick and hammerheads to kill all frigs quick.Then i get the ogre II's out and focus all fire on the bs and they go down quick. Slightly different setup to what has been given but very effective. Admittedly it isn't superquick at killing stuff but i found i was missing a lot with the bigger guns considering how many cruisers/frigs you get in missions. A very solid ship without being spectacular. Hope this helps give you more ideas.
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.03 12:47:00 - [40] I wouldn't be surprised if medium-sized railguns and beams work better than medium-sized artillery turrets, on a battleship that can carry and has bonuses for large projectile turrets. I believe only minmatar ships carry this sort of irony.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Jukhta Mein Ok I've tried the typhoon in a few missions and it seems slower than my previous maelstrom..I use roughly the same setup as above only with 1 AB and 3 cap rechargers in the mids, 2x CCC rigs and 1 of those BCU slots go to a PDU II to fit the weopons and AB. I say it is slower because 1) Those ogres II do take some time to travel. I'm wondering if tech1 sentry drones would do a better job. 2) Those missiles do take some time to travel. As such I can't see the real damage done on the NPC and many a time would send a volley too many, which means greater inefficiency and time lost. If I micromanage and switch targets for my cruise launchers before the target is dead though, the 3 1200mm IIs I have left may actually NOT finish a job in one volley. Which means that I could have like, say, a BC with 10% structure left and still needing for the 1200mms to hit it 1 more time. In worse cases the target (usually BS class) could actually regain armor amounts and the 1200mms can't even complete the task, hence needing me to switch the cruise launchers pounding another target back to that first target. This is not a problem with the 1200mm 3x gyro maelstrom I used previously because the BC will be gone in 2.5 volleys and I can immediately switch targets after that. 3) The split weopons system makes it hard to focus fire on targets. I can't focus both cruise launchers and arties on cruisers and battlecruisers coming in under 20km because the arties simply would miss. Now this happens when I use the maelstrom too in which case I usually use hammerheads for those cruisers close by. However using hammerhead IIs in the case of the typhoon actually means I'm not using those ogres, which means 250 DPS less when only my cruises and arties are dealing with those battleships. This is my first time using a typhoon on missions and these are just some prelimanary remarks, advice appreciated. 1. Tech II sentry drones are amazingly good. For most missions, except for the ones against Angels, they are probably the best choice by a fair bit. I use sentry drones against everything except Angels, which I use Berserkers against (soon to be Berserker IIs). 2 & 3. With hotkeys it is easy to focus fire everything on one target. I don't really care about wasting an extra volley of cruise missiles on a target, but with experience it isn't hard to avoid it. Once a rat gets into structure, 1200mms and sentry drones finish him quickly. As for ships under 20km, I kill all the battleships first, then I use Tech II mediums and cruise missiles on smaller ships. I use keep at distance to keep the transversal down for my 1200mms. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Col Angus	Posted - 2008.10.04 01:54:00 - [42] Spend a little coin, and you can get a fantastic short range Phoon that (with my mains skills) dishes out 640+ DPS (520 w/o drones), and perma-runs dual large armor reps for a constant defence efficiency of 557...or you can run dual reps+ and AB for almost 5 minutes, or one rep + AB forever. So basically you can tank a LOT and move slowly, or you tank a decent amount while maintaining high transversal, and in an emergency, you can do all of the above...while dishing out almost 650dps with T1 ammo. Would you like to know more? Highs: 4x Dread Guristas Siege Launchers 4x T2 Dual 425mm AC's Mids: 1x Domination 100MN AB 3x T2 Cap Recharger Lows: 1x T2 Cap Power Relay 1x T2 DCU 2x Domination Large Armor Rep's 3x TS Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane (these can actually be from any Amarr faction) Rigs: 2x Cap Control Circuit 1x Auxiliary Nano Pump Drones: Use what fits the situation Disclaimer: My main does have 53+ mil sp's, and is pretty specialized...and yes this is pretty much a requirement to make the Phoon a really sexy ship.
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.04 03:25:00 - [43] And I thought 27 mil SP was enough to fly this ship..Is there a cheaper yet still viable outfit to the above?
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.04 04:23:00 - [44] Originally by: Jukhta Mein And I thought 27 mil SP was enough to fly this ship..Is there a cheaper yet still viable outfit to the above? You could try something like this: [Typhoon, PVE Phoon] Large Armor Repairer II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II 100MN Afterburner II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP L Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP L Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP L Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP L Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Ogre II x5 Hammerhead II x5 His tank is alot better, but I've never been a fan in overtanking. If you feel the tank isn't enough replace A BCU with a MAR. -Liang --
Col Angus	Posted - 2008.10.04 04:36:00 - [45] Edited by: Col Angus on 04/10/2008 04:41:48 Originally by: Jukhta Mein And I thought 27 mil SP was enough to fly this ship..Is there a cheaper yet still viable outfit to the above? If the 27mil is correctly placed, then I am sure that it would be fine. As long as you have Large Projectiles and Torpedoes both trained to level five, along with decent supporting missile/gunnery skills, as well as Minmatar BS Lvl 5. This will give you the damage output that you need. Good Mechanic and Engineering skills are needed for the cap and the tank, and I also have Weapons Upgrades, and Advanced Weapon Upgrades both trained to Lvl 5. A wonderful thing about that fitting is that you don't have to be able to use T2 gear, except for T2 Cap Rechargers, to use all the components. Edit: T2 Heavy drones weren't a priority for me initially, but when I can use them, my DPS will be over 775 (the numbers above were based on T2 Mediums). Fly safe
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.04 14:36:00 - [46] How practical is a torpedo autocanon setup in missions? Note that I can't use t2 torps anytime soon.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.10.04 21:36:00 - [47] Originally by: Jukhta Mein How practical is a torpedo autocanon setup in missions? Note that I can't use t2 torps anytime soon. Against Angels it is very practical. This setup could possibly use a bit more tank, but it has worked pretty well for me. Note that according to EFT this ship does more DPS with 2x BCU IIs than it does with 1x Gyrostabilizer II and 1x BCU II. [Typhoon, Q's Typhoon - Short Range] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Damage Control II Large Armor Repairer II 100MN Afterburner II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher, Bane Torpedo 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher, Bane Torpedo 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher, Bane Torpedo 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher, Bane Torpedo Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Berserker II x5 Valkyrie II x5 ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
1200 baud	Posted - 2008.10.06 19:56:00 - [48] Personally I go for 1st - Vargur (4x1200's) 2nd - Machariel (also 1200's) 3rd - Maelstrom (8x1400's) For me, I usually also add two tracking comps with tracking scripts. Yes its 2 midslots that I'm taking away from tanking, but there is a huge increase in the quality of hits, and actual DPS. Also, I fit only Gyro and PDS in lows. Usually 4 Gyro setups. As for small stuff, Hammerhead II's with good drone skills will finish the small stuff while the guns work on the large stuff. Dance like it hurts, Love like you need money, Work when people are watching. - Scott Adams
Ghengis Tia	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:25:00 - [49] The 1200's on the Typhoon only work when the transversal is low. I either run right at the target or run directly away from it. Forget the "Orbit at" button and go with the "Keep Range at" button. Did WC with my 'phoon and things went fine. Running right at a target with guns and missiles blazing feels kinda' like going full gallop in a joust. (that mast or whatever on the front of the Typhoon is my lance.)
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.07 03:11:00 - [50] I don't suppose the short range phoon works for missions other than Angels does it? Tried it out in a Mordu one and it didn't work so well, had to change to cruises.
Col Angus	Posted - 2008.10.07 16:31:00 - [51] The short range Phoon works for a lot of missions, but there are some that simply require an ability to hit from a distance. Smash the Supplier for instance...this one is impossible in a short range ship unless you have about 5 Logistics ships repping you.
Zero Threat Gallente Rebirth.	Posted - 2008.10.07 16:43:00 - [52] ive heard of the maelstrom being better over the phoon. more damage and shield tanks r always best for mission anyways. and the Passive armor tanked phoon should be the only fit people should be using lol.
slightly sillydude	Posted - 2008.10.07 18:52:00 - [53] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Jukhta Mein And I thought 27 mil SP was enough to fly this ship..Is there a cheaper yet still viable outfit to the above? You could try something like this: [Typhoon, PVE Phoon] Large Armor Repairer II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II 100MN Afterburner II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP L Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP L Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP L Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP L Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Ogre II x5 Hammerhead II x5 His tank is alot better, but I've never been a fan in overtanking. If you feel the tank isn't enough replace A BCU with a MAR. -Liang My first BS for lvl 4s was a Typhoon, I tried this setup pretty much exactly and I tried the 4 cruise 3 1200 setup. I found both to be woefully inadequate. The cruise setup could not do enough DPS and have any kind of tank. The split weapons just suck, you already have few low slots for damage mods and then they are only affecting half your weapons. The torp auto worked ok, thanks to torps being half my slots but like 70% of my DPS (minus drones). I could tank the hell out of it but doing level 4s at close range was ridiculously tedious, especially against rats I was barely able to catch thanks to the speed penalty of armor rigs. Fly a Maelstrom now and like it much better, though I hate battleships of any kind with a passion.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.07 18:56:00 - [54] Originally by: slightly sillydude My first BS for lvl 4s was a Typhoon, I tried this setup pretty much exactly and I tried the 4 cruise 3 1200 setup. I found both to be woefully inadequate. The cruise setup could not do enough DPS and have any kind of tank. The split weapons just suck, you already have few low slots for damage mods and then they are only affecting half your weapons. The torp auto worked ok, thanks to torps being half my slots but like 70% of my DPS (minus drones). I could tank the hell out of it but doing level 4s at close range was ridiculously tedious, especially against rats I was barely able to catch thanks to the speed penalty of armor rigs. Fly a Maelstrom now and like it much better, though I hate battleships of any kind with a passion. I've been running an AC Mael in lowsec missions recently... it really makes me want to cry on occasion. I can't decide if it's the Mael's performance or the fact that I'm running a mission in general. :) -Liang --
slightly sillydude	Posted - 2008.10.07 19:11:00 - [55] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/10/2008 18:57:10 Originally by: slightly sillydude My first BS for lvl 4s was a Typhoon, I tried this setup pretty much exactly and I tried the 4 cruise 3 1200 setup. I found both to be woefully inadequate. The cruise setup could not do enough DPS and have any kind of tank. The split weapons just suck, you already have few low slots for damage mods and then they are only affecting half your weapons. The torp auto worked ok, thanks to torps being half my slots but like 70% of my DPS (minus drones). I could tank the hell out of it but doing level 4s at close range was ridiculously tedious, especially against rats I was barely able to catch thanks to the speed penalty of armor rigs. Fly a Maelstrom now and like it much better, though I hate battleships of any kind with a passion. I've been running an AC Mael in lowsec missions recently... it really makes me want to cry on occasion. I can't decide if it's the Mael's performance or the fact that I'm running a mission in general. :) -Liang Ed: It DOES feel, btw, that the 1200 and 1400 variants worked better than the 800 AC's. As for the phoon.. I've always felt that it tries too hard and fails for it. Out of curiosity, do you use or have you tried falloff rigs on an 800mm mission running Mael? Barrage L and 3 ambit extensions gives like 45km falloff, curious if thats enough to make a close range fit bearable.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.07 19:12:00 - [56] Originally by: slightly sillydude Out of curiosity, do you use or have you tried falloff rigs on an 800mm mission running Mael? Barrage L and 3 ambit extensions gives like 45km falloff, curious if thats enough to make a close range fit bearable. Yeah, IIRC I'm running 2-3 ambits on it. It's really disappointing, and alot of that seems to come from travel time. :-/ -Liang --

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