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ATARI BABY
Lords Of Guile
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Posted - 2008.10.06 02:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Marquess Magnifico
Originally by: ATARI BABY extremely bad idea. can you imagine big fleet fights?
i'll quit eve if that idea become real.
Can I have your stuff?
sure you can have my stuff. if this idea become real, it mean i didnt understand eve concept and game mechanics. and i'm sure i'll not enjoy with chameleony pvp. than i'll make a contract my stuff to you.
chameleon cloak idea is never gonna happen! eve is situation based game. this kinda extremely surprising tricks not included.
i remember idea about jetison cans. poster thought explosive trap cans would be fun. (probabely you gonna like tis idea) but like i said. this kinda surprise tricks just **ck up combat mechanic. (ecm and cloaking completely different mathematic)
if you cant see this it mean you dont understand something about eve.
sorry for previous short comment coz i thougt u trolling. but omg.. you are serious. that makes your idea worse than troll.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.10.06 02:41:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Strill on 06/10/2008 02:43:46
Originally by: ATARI BABY
Originally by: Marquess Magnifico
Originally by: ATARI BABY extremely bad idea. can you imagine big fleet fights?
i'll quit eve if that idea become real.
Can I have your stuff?
sure you can have my stuff. if this idea become real, it mean i didnt understand eve concept and game mechanics. and i'm sure i'll not enjoy with chameleony pvp. than i'll make a contract my stuff to you.
chameleon cloak idea is never gonna happen! eve is situation based game. this kinda extremely surprising tricks not included.
i remember idea about jetison cans. poster thought explosive trap cans would be fun. (probabely you gonna like tis idea) but like i said. this kinda surprise tricks just **ck up combat mechanic. (ecm and cloaking completely different mathematic)
I still don't understand what it would do to fleet fights.
And explosive trap cans are completely different. The Chameleon cloak attracts or dissuades combat ships. Even if a ship falls for it, they're still fit to stand a fighting chance against it, and they have the advantage of the cloak's penalties. On top of that, even if no one fights the cloaker, they're 'hiding in plain sight' so to speak, which gives the attacker the opportunity to plan ahead and arrange counter-countermeasures.
Explosive trap cans, on the other hand, attract and instantly kill non-combat ships. The trap cans attract ships that aren't fit to stand a chance against it, and gives no penalty to the trapper.
Quote: if you cant see this it mean you dont understand something about eve.
sorry for previous short comment coz i thougt u trolling. but omg.. you are serious. that makes your idea worse than troll.
If you're just going to throw around Ad Hominem attacks rather than actually giving any reasons as to why this module would be unbalanced then you're the one who's trolling.
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ATARI BABY
Lords Of Guile
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Posted - 2008.10.06 03:09:00 -
[33]
Edited by: ATARI BABY on 06/10/2008 03:16:44 Edited by: ATARI BABY on 06/10/2008 03:14:46
Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 06/10/2008 02:43:46
Originally by: ATARI BABY
Originally by: Marquess Magnifico
Originally by: ATARI BABY extremely bad idea. can you imagine big fleet fights?
i'll quit eve if that idea become real.
Can I have your stuff?
sure you can have my stuff. if this idea become real, it mean i didnt understand eve concept and game mechanics. and i'm sure i'll not enjoy with chameleony pvp. than i'll make a contract my stuff to you.
chameleon cloak idea is never gonna happen! eve is situation based game. this kinda extremely surprising tricks not included.
i remember idea about jetison cans. poster thought explosive trap cans would be fun. (probabely you gonna like tis idea) but like i said. this kinda surprise tricks just **ck up combat mechanic. (ecm and cloaking completely different mathematic)
I still don't understand what it would do to fleet fights.
And explosive trap cans are completely different. The Chameleon cloak attracts or dissuades combat ships. Even if a ship falls for it, they're still fit to stand a fighting chance against it, and they have the advantage of the cloak's penalties. On top of that, even if no one fights the cloaker, they're 'hiding in plain sight' so to speak, which gives the attacker the opportunity to plan ahead and arrange counter-countermeasures.
Explosive trap cans, on the other hand, attract and instantly kill non-combat ships. The trap cans attract ships that aren't fit to stand a chance against it, and gives no penalty to the trapper.
Quote: if you cant see this it mean you dont understand something about eve.
sorry for previous short comment coz i thougt u trolling. but omg.. you are serious. that makes your idea worse than troll.
If you're just going to throw around Ad Hominem attacks rather than actually giving any reasons as to why this module would be unbalanced then you're the one who's trolling.
primary targets are soo important in non capital big fleetfights. logistic ships are primary mostly. (depends on situation of course) so.. what is the point with the camouflaged logistic?
its becoming guessing game now. so why?
original poster just 4 month old player. do you think he know enough?
oh maybe he is just trolling alt.
edit: just fixing missed letters.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.10.06 03:20:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Strill on 06/10/2008 03:19:47
Quote: original poster just 4 month old player. do you think he know enough?
oh maybe he is just trolling alt.
Again with the Ad Hominem attacks. I'm not going to give you the dignity of a response.
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MERIC KARA
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Posted - 2008.10.06 03:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 06/10/2008 03:19:47
Quote: original poster just 4 month old player. do you think he know enough?
oh maybe he is just trolling alt.
Again with the Ad Hominem attacks. I'm not going to give you the dignity of a response.
these are possibilities.
so do you satisfied about fleet fight situations with that device?
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.06 09:53:00 -
[36]
Originally by: ATARI BABY primary targets are soo important in non capital big fleetfights. logistic ships are primary mostly. (depends on situation of course) so.. what is the point with the camouflaged logistic?
its becoming guessing game now. so why?
That's the point. Read the OP; specifically this segment:
Quote: So, as the ore thief steals what he thinks is an ore can sitting by an innocent Retriever, the Deimos pilot disengages the cloak and the fight is on.
So yes, a logistics ship can have a cloak to conceal it prior to a fleet fight, so you don't know whether they have them or not. That's the point of an intel war.
However, that logistics ship has to become visible as a logistics ship in order to rep/boost, probably has a targeting delay, and is down a high-slot in order to do this trick. Sounds balanced to me. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.06 09:57:00 -
[37]
AWESOME idea, I'd love to see it happen, but it won't.
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ATARI BABY
Lords Of Guile
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Posted - 2008.10.06 12:34:00 -
[38]
Edited by: ATARI BABY on 06/10/2008 12:45:43 Edited by: ATARI BABY on 06/10/2008 12:35:18
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: ATARI BABY primary targets are soo important in non capital big fleetfights. logistic ships are primary mostly. (depends on situation of course) so.. what is the point with the camouflaged logistic?
its becoming guessing game now. so why?
That's the point. Read the OP; specifically this segment:
Quote: So, as the ore thief steals what he thinks is an ore can sitting by an innocent Retriever, the Deimos pilot disengages the cloak and the fight is on.
So yes, a logistics ship can have a cloak to conceal it prior to a fleet fight, so you don't know whether they have them or not. That's the point of an intel war.
However, that logistics ship has to become visible as a logistics ship in order to rep/boost, probably has a targeting delay, and is down a high-slot in order to do this trick. Sounds balanced to me.
intel: 30+ red camping XXX system. all hac's. ah nevermind about shiptypes guys. who knows what they have got actually. lets attack and see.
do you think this makes eve better? i dont think this is an intel war.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.06 12:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: ATARI BABY intel: 30+ red camping XXX system. all hac's. ah nevermind about shiptypes guys. who knows what they have got actually. lets attack and see.
do you think this makes eve better? i dont think this is intel war.
Yes it is an intel war, and one that promotes actual thought and tactics. There's only one difference in the above to the following:
'30+ reds in system, but nothing on scanners, they must all be cloaked. Best not get separated.'
and that is that you can actually see & attack the fleet, even if you're unsure of ship-type.
In the scenario you outline, instead of having instant intel of all ship types and whether you can counter them (which just leads to blob after blob and mostly inferior fleets running away), you might *shock* actually have to risk skirmishing with their fleet to discover what they have before committing the bulk of your forces.
Remember that this chameleon cloak is to all intents a normal cloak but your ship is still visible and a different model (i.e. all the drawbacks of cloaking), and how often do we see entire cloaked fleets? ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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ATARI BABY
Lords Of Guile
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Posted - 2008.10.06 13:14:00 -
[40]
i'm feeding this troll post last time.
this idea out of eve concept and game mechanics. if you support this idea for becoming real, you need to understand something more.
thanx god this is never gonna happen. and thats make all OP supporters are wrong.
if you are right i'll quit as i told.
done!
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Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.10.06 14:08:00 -
[41]
Originally by: ATARI BABY this idea out of eve concept and game mechanics. if you support this idea for becoming real, you need to understand something more.
Then please explain it to us. So far of the 4 'Bad Ideas' posts, none of them have given any real reason, instead, like yours they all sound like whines.
As I have stated above, I like this idea simply for the intel warfare possibilities. And my primary job in fleet is as a Covert pilot, meaning it is my job to know what the enemy ships are so my fleet can prepare for them.
Additionally, as one stated in a previous post in this thread, there needs to be a module that can see through the Chameleon cloak, which means I will need to spend another few minutes scouting before I commit the fleet.
Next, even if they follow the suggestions that I and a few others have made about this module, it will have zero effect overall on current fleet combat, why? Because current combat is all about primaries and blobs. This cloak would simply mean that the primary takes a bit more damage or a bit less than expected. Whooopppppeeeee
Where this will have the most affect will be in the area of ECM, but frankly, most ECM ships I see lately fit multispecs because they don't generally know ahead of time what they are going up against.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.06 14:45:00 -
[42]
Originally by: ATARI BABY
i'm feeding this troll post last time.
this idea out of eve concept and game mechanics. if you support this idea for becoming real, you need to understand something more.
thanx god this is never gonna happen. and thats make all OP supporters are wrong.
if you are right i'll quit as i told.
done!
Welcome to Features and Ideas - since you've clearly never posted here before, I suggest you read the rules here. This isn't GD - threatening to cancel your account and just whining that it's a bad idea is trolling; suggesting ideas which is what the OP did isn't. If you want to shoot down an idea, have a decent counter-argument beyond 'no'. All the opponents of this idea have singularly failed to do so. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Wrangler Al
Caldari Shadow's Hunters
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Posted - 2008.10.06 16:34:00 -
[43]
stop screaming you quit and put your dummy back in.
This is an interesting idea...
it would need to be thoroughly investigated/trialed for balance issues but being like a cloak that can fool.. war is half numbers half intel.. and eve is short on the latter, so being able to mess with the enemy is cool.
The restrictions on the module would be fitting, cap drain and once you shoot/rep it deactivates.
so in long fights it wouldnt effect a feet battle but in the initial clash the enemy wont know if their primary targets are the best to go for or just what the others want them to think.
counters to the device could be a probe to give accurate ship classes in the area, yet it dosent say whos flying what...
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.10.06 19:14:00 -
[44]
Originally by: ATARI BABY intel: 30+ red camping XXX system. all hac's. ah nevermind about shiptypes guys. who knows what they have got actually. lets attack and see.
You didn't read the OP.
HINT:
Originally by: Marquess Magnifico I'd suggest that the Chameleon cloak can only make you look like the same class of ship.
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W3370Pi4
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:13:00 -
[45]
i dont like this not one bit . i have no constructive arguments since this is simply useless ********************************************** Vitreous Mercoxit ! What else ***************************************** |
Marquess Magnifico
Maximum Pulsing Golden Laser Geddongs with Lasers
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:54:00 -
[46]
Originally by: W3370Pi4 i dont like this not one bit . i have no constructive arguments since this is simply useless
Nice troll. There are plenty of uses for this cloak mentioned in this thread.
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ATARI BABY
Lords Of Guile
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:22:00 -
[47]
Edited by: ATARI BABY on 06/10/2008 21:23:17
Originally by: Marquess Magnifico
Originally by: W3370Pi4 i dont like this not one bit . i have no constructive arguments since this is simply useless
Nice troll. There are plenty of uses for this cloak mentioned in this thread.
well op. can you bet on this idea?
both sides told about their idea now its time to wait and see. (no need to argue about how they told. coz i love u all)
can u really bet on this idea?
i'm 3.5 year old player and can bet.
ccp gonna make your cloak coz its really good and fit wery well on eve concept. it means i really dont undersand in 3.5 year.
or
its never gonna happen.
which is mean this is really useless idea. (or ccp not make really good decisions?)
now just leave all trolling, aggressive, deconstractive posts and make it fun.
can you bet?
you can set time limit on bet.. and i'll bump this topic every month until the end of your time limit for bet.
i sens stress here and just want to make it more fun. come on.
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ATARI BABY
Lords Of Guile
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:23:00 -
[48]
i forgot smile
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Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:47:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Asno Malo on 06/10/2008 21:46:59
Originally by: ATARI BABY both sides told about their idea now its time to wait and see. (no need to argue about how they told.
Were that the case, then we would be debating it about now, but frankly, you and the others "against" this proposal have said nothing about why they don't like it. The closest you got was; Quote: primary targets are soo important in non capital big fleetfights. logistic ships are primary mostly.
Which doesn't really mean anything when you really look at current fleet mechanics. Frankly, If your logistics ships are getting primaried at the start of battle, then your FC is screwing up, or you are in a tournament.
Quote: ccp gonna make your cloak coz its really good and fit wery well on eve concept. it means i really dont undersand in 3.5 year.
Which again makes no sense. I suspect english is not your primary language, but you really should try harder to explain what your 3.5 years of playing EVE means in this context. I have not been playing that long, but I have talked to people in RL and in game who have been playing longer than four years, and all of them like this idea.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.10.07 01:19:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Strill on 07/10/2008 01:21:56
Originally by: ATARI BABY Edited by: ATARI BABY on 06/10/2008 21:23:17
Originally by: Marquess Magnifico
Originally by: W3370Pi4 i dont like this not one bit . i have no constructive arguments since this is simply useless
Nice troll. There are plenty of uses for this cloak mentioned in this thread.
well op. can you bet on this idea?
both sides told about their idea now its time to wait and see. (no need to argue about how they told. coz i love u all)
can u really bet on this idea?
i'm 3.5 year old player and can bet.
ccp gonna make your cloak coz its really good and fit wery well on eve concept. it means i really dont undersand in 3.5 year.
or
its never gonna happen.
which is mean this is really useless idea. (or ccp not make really good decisions?)
now just leave all trolling, aggressive, deconstractive posts and make it fun.
can you bet?
you can set time limit on bet.. and i'll bump this topic every month until the end of your time limit for bet.
i sens stress here and just want to make it more fun. come on.
ATARI BABY, so far you have come up with a total of one scenario where this module would supposedly be overpowered, and you didn't even respond to the person who came up with a counter-argument. All the rest of your posts has been accusing people of being ignorant or stupid. I'd love to actually hear a real argument from you that doesn't include childish accusations of us being too unenlightened to understand your reasons.
And I still wanna know what this chameleon cloak would do for fleet battles. Even if you disguise all your logistics ships as some other cruiser it's going to be obvious that they're logistics ships since no one brings any cruiser other than logistics to a fleet battle. On top of that, you would be better off just using an ordinary cloak! If you use a normal cloak no one knows that the logistics are even there at all!
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ATARI BABY
Lords Of Guile
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Posted - 2008.10.07 03:06:00 -
[51]
Asno Malo:
1- i'm fcing. shooting or jaming logistics first and it work well. i'll not discous about that.
2- i can tell ideas people and they can love them. but that does not make that idea right for eve mechanic. look for cloaked warping black ops discussions. i love that idea but dont think its quite right.
3- yes english is not my main language. but its not the point. i'm sure you can understand what i mean. or read what is mean 'Ad Hominem' . strill pointed that title.
...
Strill:
i never said that cloaking device is overpowered. its pointless. useless idea. i explained my point. copying and pasting it again. 'eve is a situation based game. this kinda extremely surprising tricks not included.' we got alot of good tactical combinations in current pvp mechanic. really no need to 'what is this ship actually' trick.
i dont accusing people of being ignorant or stupid. i mean 'you need to understand more'. just like me. still dont know details of production pos stuff ect. this is huge universe you know.
so...
i still can bet?
can you?
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.10.07 05:27:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Strill on 07/10/2008 05:33:57
Originally by: ATARI BABY Strill:
i never said that cloaking device is overpowered. its pointless. useless idea. i explained my point. copying and pasting it again. 'eve is a situation based game. this kinda extremely surprising tricks not included.' we got alot of good tactical combinations in current pvp mechanic. really no need to 'what is this ship actually' trick.
I really don't see how this module is all that different from the tactics that are already available. You can already have one person sit outside in a bait ship while others wait inside a station ready to undock and attack. Likewise you can have one scout jump through a gate just before the rest of the group jumps through. All this module does is allow smaller groups to do the same thing at the cost of stats and fitting penalties.
So before you needed one person to sit in a bait ship while the rest of the group hides, now you can do that with a smaller group since the bait ship can participate in the fight as well.
And regardless of how they use the cloak, the penalties and the ship class restriction are more than enough to keep it from being so useful that everyone would want to fit it.
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Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.10.07 16:46:00 -
[53]
Originally by: ATARI BABY 1- i'm fcing. shooting or jaming logistics first and it work well. i'll not discous about that.
Okay, so you are effectively saying that you have a tactic you use, but are unwilling to either think beyond it or evolve your tactic to take the next level.
Now that is fine, however, all it is going to take is a single FC who does let their tactics evolve to make your tactic worthless. I actually know one now who has gone beyond what you describe yourself as doing. Were he to do a large fleet, you would have no logistics or e-war to engage. By the time you could engage them, you would already have lost all of your e-war and logistics.
Quote: i can tell ideas people and they may love them. but that does not make that idea right for eve mechanic. look for cloaked warping black ops discussions. i love that idea but dont think its quite right.
Here is another area we disagree. Personally, I believe the Black Ops should get the Covert Ops cloak, for the simple reason that it make tactical and strategic sense and it fits with the idea of a Black Ops ship within the EVE world.
Quote: yes english is not my main language. but its not the point.
Was not meant as an attack, was simply meant to point out why I am not understanding your "reasons". You still have not given a valid reason for the idea, instead you have hinted that it would make the FCs job harder or that it would weaken your own tactic. Frankly, neither of these are valid reasons IMO, instead they are cop-outs. Your avatar says 'Lords of Guile', but you are stating that you would prefer to be guileless, in warfare that is a losing tactic.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:29:00 -
[54]
nice on paper, dumb in game.
you have to restrict this heavily to prevent misuse ... this becomes something like stealth bombers ... great concept but too restricted in practical use ...
btw your only applications are for solo ships ... you did not list one gang situation ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:04:00 -
[55]
Dude, you used a freaking prophecy as an example. No cloak is going to save a prop.
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Marquess Magnifico
Maximum Pulsing Golden Laser Geddongs with Lasers
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:59:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka nice on paper, dumb in game.
you have to restrict this heavily to prevent misuse ... this becomes something like stealth bombers ... great concept but too restricted in practical use ...
btw your only applications are for solo ships ... you did not list one gang situation ...
Wow, your argument is overwhelming. Surely you have convinced me this is a dumb in game idea because... because...
Still waiting for the reason. Did it occur to you that this is not a fleet module? If you chose to use it in one, you would be at a disadvantage. You don't fit things like a ship scanner or cargo expander or strip miner on a fleet ship (or maybe you do.), and why is this?
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Kransthow
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 22:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: ATARI BABY primary targets are soo important in non capital big fleetfights. logistic ships are primary mostly. (depends on situation of course) so.. what is the point with the camouflaged logistic?
Easy fix, shooting a camo'd ship decloaks it, or you could even just look at the logistics ships to see which ones are really repping people.
also
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Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:31:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka nice on paper, dumb in game.
Please elaborate.
Quote: you have to restrict this heavily to prevent misuse ... this becomes something like stealth bombers ... great concept but too restricted in practical use ...
Not at all, if it were implemented as listed in this threads, the restrictions would be more than sufficient
Quote: btw your only applications are for solo ships ... you did not list one gang situation ...
I don't know, I have already figured out how to use this for large fleet engagements based on the descriptions and limitations (including my own) provided on the first page. I have also figured out a couple ways to use this for quite a few small fleet engagements to defeat the fleets I have been a part of. Any FC worth their salt can come up with better uses and in fact one FC I know in RL has already come up with some very creative uses of this module combined with some of his other proven strategies.
I haven't listed any fleet units quite simply because, unlike certain others, I like to evolve my tactics and keep them to myself until the first time I spank another fleet with them. ;)
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Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.10.09 21:56:00 -
[59]
By the way, I was kidding. I think this is a great idea though it might be a lot of extra work on the back-end database-wise. Bumpage.
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