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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
   |
Posted - 2008.10.07 21:47:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
"Give them a role..."
The only role that Eve lacks is anti-ewar. This is perfect for Assault Frigates. What are the AS's biggest complaint? They get neuted, they get webbed, they arent fast enough, not enough cap, low sensor strength (ECM'd quick, but why ECM something that dies fast), so on and so forth. No ship in Eve is really dedicated to providing a means to counteract and effectively destroy other Ewar ships.
Proposal:
Move one of their damage bonuses from the AS bonus down to replace the gimped base bonus. AS Frig Level: 15% resistance to Ewar. At Lv 5 that means you get around 75% resistance. Neuts would only do 25% of max ability to them, ECM would have a tough time jamming, webbing would be pointless. Seems to fix everything? They can still be killed quite easily, just takes a bit of effort to knock 'em down with standard capabilities. Give them +1 warp strength too for fun (who uses scramblers instead of disruptors anyway?)
You could factionalize this as well, but it would end up with some ridiculously awkward AFs:
Caldari: Immune to damps and scrambles (except to multiple points/infinipoint?)
Minmatar: Immunity to TDs and Neuts/Nos
Gallente: Immune to ECM
Amarr: Immune to Painters and Webbing.
Im more in favor of a generic resistance. Keep things simple.
the name is Grimpak and it agrees with it. (xcept the proposed bonus)
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Wannabehero
Caldari
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.10.07 23:00:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
I've even heard rumors of this frigate that is amazingly useful in PvP. It's fast, it can easily run a 24-30km point, it's cheap, and it even has fairly low skill requirements to make it a good ship for newer players. Essentially, it's everything a frigate could ever hope to be. Now, if only I could remember what it was...
Oh yes, an interceptor...
I was reading this... getting all excited... thinking Merin was talking about the Vigil. Then it turns out it was just interceptors.
The Vigil rules
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Sub-BC ships are useless in the dps role.
Maxed gank vexor can do more than 725 DPS. Sure it's point-blank and paper thin, but it can get there right fast, and 725 DPS is not useless.
A low level, month old nubbin in a vexor and still will do over 400 DPS with cheap T1 named gear and be able to tackle while he is at it. 400 DPS and tackle, relatively fast to get the point on, costs 6mil ISK to loose (after insurance). So very useless, especially to corps pulling in new players to the PvP meatgrinder.
Put that same nubbin in a Brutix, same level skills in battlecruiser, and same meta level equipment, and you only get a little over 10% more DPS. Helluvalot more EHP, but so much slower, more skill training time, not nearly as mobile, more expensive to fit.
Actually, I will let this do the talking.
T1 cruisers are useless for DPS.
--
Don't harsh my mellow |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.07 23:13:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Wannabehero
I was reading this... getting all excited... thinking Merin was talking about the Vigil. Then it turns out it was just interceptors.
The Vigil rules.
Or that. Vigils are good, because they actually do the job of a frigate.
As for the rest, yes, a newbie is better off in a T1 cruiser. That's why I said "unless you don't have the skills/ISK to fly something better". Since AFs are T2 ships, and therefore in theory elite endgame ships, they need to be balanced according to "what would I fly ideally". Balancing them against T1 newbie trash is just putting them on the trash pile next to T1 cruisers for everyone else, and the higher cost/skill requirements ensure they will never be used by newbies. In other words, nobody will ever fly them.
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.08 07:32:00 -
[124]
Quote:
"Give them a role..."
The only role that Eve lacks is anti-ewar. This is perfect for Assault Frigates. What are the AS's biggest complaint? They get neuted, they get webbed, they arent fast enough, not enough cap, low sensor strength (ECM'd quick, but why ECM something that dies fast), so on and so forth. No ship in Eve is really dedicated to providing a means to counteract and effectively destroy other Ewar ships.
Proposal:
Move one of their damage bonuses from the AS bonus down to replace the gimped base bonus. AS Frig Level: 15% resistance to Ewar. At Lv 5 that means you get around 75% resistance. Neuts would only do 25% of max ability to them, ECM would have a tough time jamming, webbing would be pointless. Seems to fix everything? They can still be killed quite easily, just takes a bit of effort to knock 'em down with standard capabilities. Give them +1 warp strength too for fun (who uses scramblers instead of disruptors anyway?)
You could factionalize this as well, but it would end up with some ridiculously awkward AFs:
Caldari: Immune to damps and scrambles (except to multiple points/infinipoint?)
Minmatar: Immunity to TDs and Neuts/Nos
Gallente: Immune to ECM
Amarr: Immune to Painters and Webbing.
Im more in favor of a generic resistance. Keep things simple.
How does this counter ewar though? An AF being immune to ECM for example doesn't stop the falcon from jamming 3 of your buddies. An AF's DPS isn't high enough that it could drop some of the beefier ewar ships quick enough to make a difference, especially since they are insta-popped most of the time anyways when they get called primary.
You would need a way to actually stop ewar from coming from the ship itself not simply preventing it from being used on yourself. Luckily AF's fit this bill well enough as screwing with ewar is a very slippery slope, those ships are decided to basically use ewar and only ewar so having a tiny ship screw everything up can be frustrating but AF's are easy enough to pop.
-=^=-
"Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 07:56:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
Quote:
"Give them a role..."
The only role that Eve lacks is anti-ewar. This is perfect for Assault Frigates. What are the AS's biggest complaint? They get neuted, they get webbed, they arent fast enough, not enough cap, low sensor strength (ECM'd quick, but why ECM something that dies fast), so on and so forth. No ship in Eve is really dedicated to providing a means to counteract and effectively destroy other Ewar ships.
Proposal:
Move one of their damage bonuses from the AS bonus down to replace the gimped base bonus. AS Frig Level: 15% resistance to Ewar. At Lv 5 that means you get around 75% resistance. Neuts would only do 25% of max ability to them, ECM would have a tough time jamming, webbing would be pointless. Seems to fix everything? They can still be killed quite easily, just takes a bit of effort to knock 'em down with standard capabilities. Give them +1 warp strength too for fun (who uses scramblers instead of disruptors anyway?)
You could factionalize this as well, but it would end up with some ridiculously awkward AFs:
Caldari: Immune to damps and scrambles (except to multiple points/infinipoint?)
Minmatar: Immunity to TDs and Neuts/Nos
Gallente: Immune to ECM
Amarr: Immune to Painters and Webbing.
Im more in favor of a generic resistance. Keep things simple.
How does this counter ewar though? An AF being immune to ECM for example doesn't stop the falcon from jamming 3 of your buddies. An AF's DPS isn't high enough that it could drop some of the beefier ewar ships quick enough to make a difference, especially since they are insta-popped most of the time anyways when they get called primary.
You would need a way to actually stop ewar from coming from the ship itself not simply preventing it from being used on yourself. Luckily AF's fit this bill well enough as screwing with ewar is a very slippery slope, those ships are decided to basically use ewar and only ewar so having a tiny ship screw everything up can be frustrating but AF's are easy enough to pop.
if you put a ship that is immune or very resistant to Ewar, you just added a threat to any ship that has any kind of Ewar as its main offensive power. Considering that most AF's pack some damage aswell, I can see that if a ship like, let's say, the jaguar, gets into scrambler range of the falcon, the falcon is pretty much screwed due to its lack of tank.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
RedSplat
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:14:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
Quote:
"Give them a role..."
if you put a ship that is immune or very resistant to Ewar, you just added a threat to any ship that has any kind of Ewar as its main offensive power. Considering that most AF's pack some damage aswell, I can see that if a ship like, let's say, the jaguar, gets into scrambler range of the falcon, the falcon is pretty much screwed due to its lack of tank.
A ship that can shut down pretty much any sub-cap ship in the game, in fact multiple said targets, through liberal application of jamming pretty much screwed by a t2 ship?
How terrible! We must pre-emptively nerf Assault Frigates....oh wait. 
How many falcon pilots do you know that DONT sit 100km+ away from danger; which is about midrange for a Blackbird?
So our 'ECM proof' Assault Frigate (which is lets face it probably slower than a t1 frigate) just has to cover that distance. 
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:07:00 -
[127]
Originally by: RedSplat
A ship that can shut down pretty much any sub-cap ship in the game, in fact multiple said targets, through liberal application of jamming pretty much screwed by a t2 ship?
How terrible! We must pre-emptively nerf Assault Frigates....oh wait.
How many falcon pilots do you know that DONT sit 100km+ away from danger; which is about midrange for a Blackbird?
So our 'ECM proof' Assault Frigate (which is lets face it probably slower than a t1 frigate) just has to cover that distance.
never said it was perfect, now did I?
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
RedSplat
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:19:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: RedSplat
never said it was perfect, now did I?
No you just overplayed how viable a threat an EWAR resistant AF would be to ships like the falcon. 
I fly BB's, my highs are always full of Nos and Neut just for those who think anti support should engage up close and personal; please dont mention ceptors.
Given the problems and changes the 'speed rebalancing' is going to cause AF's might come out with a slight boost, should be interesting.
Also, bump.
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wide
55378008
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:57:00 -
[129]
Just give them the ability to fit a gang module and they'd rock (except for caldari but they deserve it) |
Princess 02
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Posted - 2008.10.09 04:11:00 -
[130]
mother ship ewar immunity...
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Alexander Nexus
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Posted - 2008.10.09 05:11:00 -
[131]
Why not make AFs similar to Marauders. Give them a 100% damage bonus and adjust their base stats to favor PvE. It's already been stated that CCP doesn't like that AFs can be used to tank whole plexs so why not capitalize on that ability. Make AFs capable of tanking lvl 3s AND killing the BS spawns in a more reasonable time.
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Delichon
The First Foundation
SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.10.09 06:55:00 -
[132]
Originally by: RedSplat
No you just overplayed how viable a threat an EWAR resistant AF would be to ships like the falcon.
Having EW resistance doesn't mean you should try to kill the Falcon. You use this resistance to kill something else, while enemy wastes a gang-slot to bring a useless ship.
Say we have a station camp with dictor, Falcon and a couple of BCs/HACs.
2-3 Afs undock, kill the dictor and leg it from the station may be losing 1 in the process. Falcons can't successfully jam them, BCs and HACs can't neut or web them sufficiently to stop them from GTFOing.
That would be a useful application of AFs all the while being not really overpowered one (because you can still gank AF)
As for Falcons engaging from closer than 100 km - I heard there are such things as buble camps. When a gang with falcon wants to jump into it and engage such a camp - they have to work from 20km. It sucks but there is no way around it.
------------------------------------------
All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE
A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:41:00 -
[133]
Even as a Falcon pilot, I like the idea of ewar-resistant AFs. Maybe the easy availability of the passive counter everyone wants would finally get them to stop whining about the ship. And it's not like it would be difficult to balance, you have the entire range from 0-100% to work with, and there's no reason the immunity percent has to be at either extreme.
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Dr Sheepbringer
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:00:00 -
[134]
I would also like the idea of ewar-immune AF's.
Not sure about the balance though. I mean a 10pack of AF's that are completely immune to ewar and they still pound out a reasonable good dps.
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Celestinus
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:51:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Delichon
Say we have a station camp with dictor, Falcon and a couple of BCs/HACs.
2-3 Afs undock, kill the dictor and leg it from the station may be losing 1 in the process. Falcons can't successfully jam them, BCs and HACs can't neut or web them sufficiently to stop them from GTFOing.
This would also give newer player corps a fighting chance against station and gate camps. Wardecs in general too.
- cel |
Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:51:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Alexander Nexus
Why not make AFs similar to Marauders. Give them a 100% damage bonus and adjust their base stats to favor PvE.
GO AWAY.
bloody carebear 
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FRIGANK |
Fafnir Drake
Gallente
Boob Heads
Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.10 01:50:00 -
[137]
Ok, just posted a massive update to my OP. Enjoy the nice big old wall of text. 
------
"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure." |
RedSplat
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Posted - 2008.10.10 11:22:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Fafnir Drake
Ok, just posted a massive update to my OP. Enjoy the nice big old wall of text.
Increasing turret slots and highs? Might be too much of a boost- then again AF's would still have problems dealing with t1 cruisers so perhaps not a drastic a change as my initial reaction says.
I am still very atracted to the idea of ewar resistance.
Here is hoping a dev takes notice of the thread, some good stuff here, but thats probably a pipedream  |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.10.10 11:47:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Fafnir Drake
Ok, just posted a massive update to my OP. Enjoy the nice big old wall of text.
just give the Ishkur 50mbit bandwidth with 70m3 drone bay ...
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Malcanis
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.10 12:24:00 -
[140]
Originally by: wide
Just give them the ability to fit a gang module and they'd rock (except for caldari but they deserve it)
yeah you're right, Hawk is a superpwnmobile
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Tykkis
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Posted - 2008.10.10 13:31:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Alexander Nexus
Why not make AFs similar to Marauders. Give them a 100% damage bonus and adjust their base stats to favor PvE. It's already been stated that CCP doesn't like that AFs can be used to tank whole plexs so why not capitalize on that ability. Make AFs capable of tanking lvl 3s AND killing the BS spawns in a more reasonable time.
Like the 100% dmg bonus idea. Dislike any talk about PvE.
100% dmg bonus, 2 guns, 3 utility slots.
Bonuses: 2 for dmg/rof/range/falloff and 2 for the utility slots. nos&neut, gang modules, remote rep... (NO salvage bonus!)
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Fafnir Drake
Gallente
Boob Heads
Bionic Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.10.10 16:56:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: wide
Just give them the ability to fit a gang module and they'd rock (except for caldari but they deserve it)
yeah you're right, Hawk is a superpwnmobile
Is it? Hm..... Ok..... will do some thinking. Maybe give it split bonuses, swap out some mid slots for low....... |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2008.10.10 17:27:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 10/10/2008 17:28:00
Let's summarize proposed AF changes:
- EW resistances
- Marauder bonus (no PvE crap)
- special AF command modules
- price (*)
- mass & agility
*: AF prices are really crazy. Compare HAC/T1 price relation. It's something like
1:25 if you take an Ishtar and a Vexor. Than take a "good" AF Ishkur and compare it with a T1 frigate like Incursus (1:80). Even Ishkur/Rifter price proportions sucks (1:40) |
Fafnir Drake
Gallente
Boob Heads
Bionic Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 01:52:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 10/10/2008 17:28:00
Let's summarize proposed AF changes:
- EW resistances
- Marauder bonus (no PvE crap)
- special AF command modules
- price (*)
- mass & agility
*: AF prices are really crazy. Compare HAC/T1 price relation. It's something like
1:25 if you take an Ishtar and a Vexor. Than take a "good" AF Ishkur and compare it with a T1 frigate like Incursus (1:80). Even Ishkur/Rifter price proportions sucks (1:40)
My idea didn't go on this list?
<---- Sad Panda. 
------
"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure." |
RedSplat
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Posted - 2008.10.11 15:38:00 -
[145]
This thread isnt allowed to die until a dev acknowledges they have read it.
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.10.12 02:22:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 12/10/2008 02:23:40
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 12/10/2008 02:22:47
Fafnir Drake , plz add your idea to this list, or make a new one :)
I just wanted to summarize a litte bit. There are plenty of good ideas in many AF threads and this list isn't complete now.
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Fafnir Drake
Gallente
Boob Heads
Bionic Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 22:28:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Fafnir Drake on 12/10/2008 22:29:08
Originally by: RedSplat
This thread isnt allowed to die until a dev acknowledges they have read it.
What if it's locked? :P
Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 12/10/2008 02:23:40
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 12/10/2008 02:22:47
Fafnir Drake , plz add your idea to this list, or make a new one :)
I just wanted to summarize a litte bit. There are plenty of good ideas in many AF threads and this list isn't complete now.
Yah, seen some good AF ideas tossed around. The better-liked of them seem to all have general DPS/Tank Buffs as well as either gang bonuses of some form or E-war resistance.
I'm more in favor of dps/tank buffs, because while anti-ewar would be interesting, it doesn't seem to be enough without some pretty big changes in other areas. Not much point it being largely immune to ewar if you A) Can't catch the ewar ships, B) Can't kill them if you do.
Earlier in this thread, someone posted that they'd always imagined the Assault Frig as a small, tough little class that would latch onto bigger targets and then be the biggest "pita ever to pry off". I instantly liked that guy. :)
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"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure." |
Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 22:46:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Fafnir Drake
Changes for the Retribution:
Skill Bonuses:
-Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret cap use and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level
-Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Energy Turret damage per level
Fitting:
-Another Mid Slot added.
-One Low Slot traded for Another Mid Slot.
-Another Turret Hardpoint added.
-Powergrid increase of 8 and CPU increase of 10.
I would prefer a 5% tracking bonus per frig skill level, and maintaining the 5-1-5 layout with the 5th turret, but this one actually gets my stamp of approval.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
abrasive soap
HOMELESS.
Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 01:20:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Fafnir Drake
Changes for the Retribution:
Skill Bonuses:
-Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret cap use and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level
-Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Energy Turret damage per level
Fitting:
-Another Mid Slot added.
-One Low Slot traded for Another Mid Slot.
-Another Turret Hardpoint added.
-Powergrid increase of 8 and CPU increase of 10.
I would prefer a 5% tracking bonus per frig skill level, and maintaining the 5-1-5 layout with the 5th turret, but this one actually gets my stamp of approval.
I would like the 2nd mid, and maybe change the optimal bonus to something more useful like rof bonus or cap recharge bonus. Other than that I agree with the op.
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Fafnir Drake
Gallente
Boob Heads
Bionic Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 03:05:00 -
[150]
Originally by: abrasive soap
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Fafnir Drake
Changes for the Retribution:
Skill Bonuses:
-Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret cap use and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level
-Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Energy Turret damage per level
Fitting:
-Another Mid Slot added.
-One Low Slot traded for Another Mid Slot.
-Another Turret Hardpoint added.
-Powergrid increase of 8 and CPU increase of 10.
I would prefer a 5% tracking bonus per frig skill level, and maintaining the 5-1-5 layout with the 5th turret, but this one actually gets my stamp of approval.
I would like the 2nd mid, and maybe change the optimal bonus to something more useful like rof bonus or cap recharge bonus. Other than that I agree with the op.
Ok, need some clarification on the feedback here: Ammar pilots would rather have 2 midslots and keep the low slot, then trade in a low slot for a 3rd mid?
As for changing the optimal bonus, it's currently in the ship, so I'd hate to remove it, seeing as some may like it. If you guys prefer, I could replace the armor resistance bonus with a tracking bonus?
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"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure." |
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