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Of Montreal Gallente The Sunshine Club	Posted - 2008.10.04 22:59:00 - [61] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Of Montreal What you fail to realize is when our economy takes a dive, other world economies like China will follow. The majority of what China makes gets shipped to the US, we have less money = we buy less stuff = China loses money. Actually, China is shipping more and more into the EU and other areas, the USofA might be the single largest importer of Chinese goods, but if the USA economy gets squashed, they still have places to export a good deal of their stuff. Also, internal consumption is heavily on the rise anyway, so, again, I don't see a significant problem with the USA heavily reducing their imports. China's is a (mostly) self-sufficient economy, with plenty of exports which drive quality of living up heavily. Even if they'd have to cease all exports, worst case scenario they don't have such a large increase as before, hardly in danger of immediate collapse. Out of all countries in the world, China is one of the better suited ones to pass through a "depression" least harmed. Didn't the Chinese Stock Market just lose 2/3's of its value? Linkage Linkage 2 They are in better shape then us, but if you think China won't take a big hit from our failure you're wrong. Not only are we the largest importer of Chinese goods they also own a good portion of our debt. Bank of China says it owns $5 billion of subprime loans, and that's on top of billions more of Chinese domestic bad debt.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.04 23:36:00 - [62] Originally by: Drakolus If there was a way to invest in instability and Chaos, I would SO be all in right now. Yes, yes you can. Look into investing in futures and/or options. I'd recommend futures before options due to their complexity. Or simply invest in CFDs. All three rely on movements in the price to generate profit, and you can easily structure it so you make money when the price goes down. Originally by: Of Montreal They are in better shape then us, but if you think China won't take a big hit from our failure you're wrong. Not only are we the largest importer of Chinese goods they also own a good portion of our debt. Bank of China says it owns $5 billion of subprime loans, and that's on top of billions more of Chinese domestic bad debt. China's stock market has taken a hit, but keep in mind China is not as well capitalised as the US. Where the US stock market is worth between 100% - 150% of it's economy (that's normally, probably not true now), China's is worth around 2%. Therefore if the stockmarket is wiped out completely, the economy is not really affected. Also, the Chinese economy was is a massive independent bubble, and it burst due to the bubble, not because of the credit crisis. Secondly the Chinese economy, as Akita said, is not as dependent on the US as it was previously. Projections state China's growth will drop to around 8%, down from slightly over 10%. A slowdown yes, but many people in the US would kill for 8% growth right now. This growth is partly dependent on exports to the EU, but also driven by internal demand. To put it in perspective, the US has a population of around 300mil and the whole EU has around 730mil. China has a population, and most of it's a growing middle class, of 1.3 billion. And lastly with regards to China owning US debt. Yes, 5 billion is a lot of money. Except China has 1.8 trillion or so in foreign reserves. If they lost all 5 billion, the Bank of China would probably just shrug and say "meh, we lost more on our stock market collapse".
dr doooo	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:06:00 - [63] Originally by: Of Montreal Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Of Montreal What you fail to realize is when our economy takes a dive, other world economies like China will follow. The majority of what China makes gets shipped to the US, we have less money = we buy less stuff = China loses money. Actually, China is shipping more and more into the EU and other areas, the USofA might be the single largest importer of Chinese goods, but if the USA economy gets squashed, they still have places to export a good deal of their stuff. Also, internal consumption is heavily on the rise anyway, so, again, I don't see a significant problem with the USA heavily reducing their imports. China's is a (mostly) self-sufficient economy, with plenty of exports which drive quality of living up heavily. Even if they'd have to cease all exports, worst case scenario they don't have such a large increase as before, hardly in danger of immediate collapse. Out of all countries in the world, China is one of the better suited ones to pass through a "depression" least harmed. Didn't the Chinese Stock Market just lose 2/3's of its value? Linkage Linkage 2 They are in better shape then us, but if you think China won't take a big hit from our failure you're wrong. Not only are we the largest importer of Chinese goods they also own a good portion of our debt. Bank of China says it owns $5 billion of subprime loans, and that's on top of billions more of Chinese domestic bad debt. Haven't China been the major buyer of US Govt. Bonds for a while? I freely admit that I know little about the US Banking system, but I was shocked when I learnt a year or so ago that the federal reserve is supposedly owned by a secret group of bankers, and run in their own interests. Now maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can put me straight here? But if that is the case, then these people have profited from each depression in the last 100 years, not least in the form of legislative gains. Today it would seem to me that these same individuals (if they exist?) are now selling you, your kids, and your grand kids economic future in the usa, in order to jostle for a more advantageous economic position for themselves in relation to the emerging global powers. Someone with some knowledge of the subject please put me straight here.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:07:00 - [64] Originally by: dr doooo Haven't China been the major buyer of US Govt. Bonds for a while? I freely admit that I know little about the US Banking system, but I was shocked when I learnt a year or so ago that the federal reserve is supposedly owned by a secret group of bankers, and run in their own interests. Now maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can put me straight here? But if that is the case, then these people have profited from each depression in the last 100 years, not least in the form of legislative gains. Today it would seem to me that these same individuals (if they exist?) are now selling you, your kids, and your grand kids economic future in the usa, in order to jostle for a more advantageous economic position for themselves in relation to the emerging global powers. Someone with some knowledge of the subject please put me straight here. Armstrong also never walked on the moon.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:14:00 - [65] Originally by: Drakolus If there was a way to invest in instability and Chaos, I would SO be all in right now. There is some companies are making a fortune at the moment. The great thing is because we're a financial business our share price took a hit. Thing is our profits are up due to the instability. So I bought a few shares and I'm in profit. Now the USA has bailed out my profits will be up Monday. I'm looking at over 30% by Friday. People go on about the chain reaction among the economies of the world and in the same breath moan about the bail out helping only the rich. The issue affects everyone. The damage is already done but the result is that there is no confidence. Once that is restored the organisations affected can begin to move on. The bail outs in various countries are required to restore confidence. Without out it the world grinds to a halt. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
dr doooo	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:29:00 - [66] Edited by: dr doooo on 05/10/2008 00:30:50 Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Originally by: dr doooo Haven't China been the major buyer of US Govt. Bonds for a while? I freely admit that I know little about the US Banking system, but I was shocked when I learnt a year or so ago that the federal reserve is supposedly owned by a secret group of bankers, and run in their own interests. Now maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can put me straight here? But if that is the case, then these people have profited from each depression in the last 100 years, not least in the form of legislative gains. Today it would seem to me that these same individuals (if they exist?) are now selling you, your kids, and your grand kids economic future in the usa, in order to jostle for a more advantageous economic position for themselves in relation to the emerging global powers. Someone with some knowledge of the subject please put me straight here. Armstrong also never walked on the moon. I am sure you are right(Edit:in the gist, not literally), but I was hoping for a a bit more insight. Why doesn't the government own the federal reserve? Is that a normal situation in most countries? Is the bank of England independently owned?
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.05 01:47:00 - [67] Edited by: Irulan S''Dijana on 05/10/2008 01:47:48 Originally by: dr doooo I am sure you are right(Edit:in the gist, not literally), but I was hoping for a a bit more insight. Why doesn't the government own the federal reserve? Is that a normal situation in most countries? Is the bank of England independently owned? First let me preface this by saying my background is Finance in Australia, so while I understand the mechanics of financial markets around the world, my knowledge if the Fed itself is not as in-depth as it could be. The Fed is a quasi-public entity, but what should be kept in mind is that the Governor and the board of directs are all appointed by the president and confirmed by congress. If at that level people consider them to be biased for big business, then it's basically game over; how else are you going to select the board members? People barely understand all the issues in the federal election right now; try getting them to understand and vote intelligently on things like balancing the value of liquidity in derivatives markets relative to the risk speculative bubbles and it's going to be a huge shitstorm. The close ties the fed has with private banking goes both ways. The fed serves as a way to moderate the economy by setting and changing interest rates. In this role the Fed leads the banks. The fed also serves as a short term savings/lending facility, and as such serves the banks to keep the financial system well greased. I still don't get how it feasible to have some sort of banker conspiracy, some sort of plot to keep the rich rich and the poor poor. Well ok, I admit, we all want to be rich, but there's no systematic goal to keep people down. It's akin to saying the major traders in EVE conspire to keep new people from entering the market; it's simply not true and infeasible. The market is very much like EVE (or should I say EVE is very much like the RL market), in that no quarter is asked, and none given. Anybody who plays (via investing in shares, bonds etc) is considered fair game. Thus a dollar from a mum and dad investor is just as good as a dollar from Warren Buffet. In times like these, the real sharks come in and take bites out of everybody. Everybody. These people are the traders, certain hedge funds etc. The IBs got hit just as hard as the mums and dads. But the banks don't report every trade that went wrong, while the mums and dads are painfully aware of every dollar they lost in the market. The end result is the mum and dad's get wiped out and the IBs collapse. And from a mum and dad point of view, it looks like somebody fleeced them on the market, the banks took their money and then ran, and now the government is bailing out the banks. The first instinct is to naturally blame somebody else, and because most people don't understand how finance works, they don't' know who to blame. So they blame somebody's who's visible: the Fed. The truth is the bankers got greedy and screwed up. No conspiracy, just a massive screw-up. Of course it's a bit more complicated, mostly to do with the way bankers are remunerated, but the point is it wasn't some sort of conspiracy.
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:15:00 - [68] Edited by: Thorliaron on 05/10/2008 03:16:28 Originally by: Valan Originally by: Drakolus If there was a way to invest in instability and Chaos, I would SO be all in right now. There is some companies are making a fortune at the moment. The great thing is because we're a financial business our share price took a hit. Thing is our profits are up due to the instability. So I bought a few shares and I'm in profit. Now the USA has bailed out my profits will be up Monday. I'm looking at over 30% by Friday. People go on about the chain reaction among the economies of the world and in the same breath moan about the bail out helping only the rich. The issue affects everyone. The damage is already done but the result is that there is no confidence. Once that is restored the organisations affected can begin to move on. The bail outs in various countries are required to restore confidence. Without out it the world grinds to a halt. You wont see a share surge for a long time and tbh the bail out won't really solve anything.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:26:00 - [69] Originally by: Valan There is some companies are making a fortune at the moment. The great thing is because we're a financial business our share price took a hit. Thing is our profits are up due to the instability. So I bought a few shares and I'm in profit. Now the USA has bailed out my profits will be up Monday. I'm looking at over 30% by Friday. What do you do? Hedge fund? Prop trading? Really REALLY interested
Captain Hudson Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:29:00 - [70] I have all my shares locked in Man Group, they have gone down quit a lot even though quarterly profits are up Bin Laden Dancing
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:36:00 - [71] Originally by: Captain Hudson I have all my shares locked in Man Group, they have gone down quit a lot even though quarterly profits are up If they're good, buy more. Diversify across time rather then assets. I'm 22, I start work next year. My work life is around 40 years, hence my investment horizon is 40 years. This is a bloody golden age for me to buy. If only I had money...
Seroquel	Posted - 2008.10.05 06:25:00 - [72] Edited by: Seroquel on 05/10/2008 06:26:18 At least our children will get their wooden arrows if the bail out bill is a flop. Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Originally by: Captain Hudson I have all my shares locked in Man Group, they have gone down quit a lot even though quarterly profits are up If they're good, buy more. Diversify across time rather then assets. I'm 22, I start work next year. My work life is around 40 years, hence my investment horizon is 40 years. This is a bloody golden age for me to buy. If only I had money... Get a loan... ker ***** (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Aclyn Seriy Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.10.05 10:39:00 - [73] What I would like to know is if this "bailout" is just that, or is this the beginning of a sweeping reform in the way the financial institutions of America work? Will the US government start playing a more active (hopefully pro-active) role in the way the system is maintained in order to fix some of the damage done over the past 40 years, or are they merely handing over the first $250B and quickly looking the other way? I hope for the sake of the USA and the rest of the world (who like it or not are inextricably intertwined with the US) that this is a reform, and not just a band-aid. These wounds need healing, not covering. Originally by: techzer0 I'm the failboat captain
TCup Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.05 13:56:00 - [74] OMG Don't care who else they bail out, so long as there's enough dosh to keep paying the hamsters...
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.	Posted - 2008.10.05 23:57:00 - [75] Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 05/10/2008 23:59:05 Stock markets tanked after the bill passed. Down to where they were when it failed first time. Check out the futures now. The market has had time to think and realised the doorstop that left the chamber is going to make everything suck. Whatever the intent was, and it no longer matters, what you got was very different. I have a lot of thoughts about all this, but I will keep it short and simple - the banks are still insolvent and equities are a value trap. The violence in forex is stunning. LIBOR has become meaningless. Credit ratings are meaningless. GE is AAA and paid 13% on preferred. The precious little lending going on is on terms that redefine usury. There are rumours commercial paper is frozen. If so, within months goods will be piling up in warehouses with nowhere to go. That $700bn was not spent in the US. It will not help matters in the US. The US bailed out foreign money center banks and SWFs. It is that simple. And as we are seeing this weekend, it was not even enough. Credit creation is almost over. Net, anyway. What little scope remains is insufficient to bridge the chasm of servicing existing debt. Keynesian policy has run its course to its mathematically maximum possible extent. Reciprocal bailout moves are under discussion in a number of countries, but there is little hope of agreement. The choice everywhere is the same: print or default. Edge towards the exit or break into a run. The world is sliding into a depression. What we see today is reminiscent of the attempts to restore faltering confidence in 1929.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.06 04:08:00 - [76] I just remembered; to the hedge fund that didn't want to hire me as a trader because they were moving to computer based algorithmic trading: SUCKS TO BE YOU!!! P.s. Can I still have a job?
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates	Posted - 2008.10.06 05:10:00 - [77] hooray for the thousands of dollars in coffee cans investment \/. and who sais rednecks are stupid
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2008.10.06 06:04:00 - [78] And in the end the many will be indebted to the few, a world of slavery is upon us.
Victor Vision Amarr Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.10.06 06:41:00 - [79] Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Wow...there's a lot of hate for the financial system here. The bailout was a bad choice, but not bailing out would be a terrible choice. I think any reasonable person would agree that a total collapse of western markets is something to be avoided. A crisis is fine to a certain degree, but an uncontrolled collapse is obviously not desireable. So, yes - a stabilizing plan makes sense. BUT a bailout? You see, governmental stabilizing of the economy can be done in various ways. In the US one plan was proposed. A plan to buy bad assets from large companies with taxpayer money, in order to safe these large companies - which in turn is supposed to stabilize the economy. This is a top down approach. The idea being to pure taxpayer money in at the top of the economy, and then hoping the stabilizing effect at the top will then positively effect the middle, and eventually the mainstream. Another approach to stabilizing the markets would have been a bottom up approach. In this scenario the main injection of cash into the markets would be at the bottom, with the idea of the positive effect then going upwards to the middle, and eventually the top. Governments like the Irish government, the German government, and very recently the Austrian government are taking a mixed approach of these two principles atm. (Most likely more governments will follow these examples) The idea in these stabilizing plans is: a) bailout crucial financial institutions (money injection at the top) b) guarantee savings (in case of germany an unlimited guarantee, in case of ireland limited to 50000 pounds - this is a broad potential cash injection, including the bottom) Another point to look at is what happens to those found responsible of mismanagement - which in part led to the current crisis. The Amercian approach seems to be to limit salaries of top executives - or something along those lines. The German approach will very likely be to look at punishment for those responsible in the failing institutions. For the future, Germany plans to change legislation so that those responsible for situations like the current one will not only be subject to legal punishment, but also may have to give up their private fortunes to help pay for the mess they caused. In closing, my main criticism of the American bailout is not that the government is trying to do something to stabilize the economy. The main criticism is that the American bailout is mainly a bailout for the rich and large companies. The common people in America do not seem to get their part of the bargain - but they do have to pay for it through taxes. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.	Posted - 2008.10.06 06:52:00 - [80] Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 06/10/2008 06:54:02 The above is spot on. Saying this was a choice between giving banks hundreds of billions of dollars taken out as an advance against future taxes and everyone sticking fingers in their ears shouting LALALA! and hoping it all goes away would be to confess to a lack of imagination. There were other possibilities. Regulators and legislators refused to explore them. It does not matter though, it is too late now and it was probably left too late anyway.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.06 07:14:00 - [81] Victor = +1 Personally I think the Private banking system in Germany is good: Bankers (at all levels) are personally responsible for the results of their actions for 5 years after they quit the job. Therefore no more 1) quick and dirty deals 2) get bonus 3) leave 4) repeat 5) ??? 6) profit Ok, I arbitrarily included the "???" for meme value.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.06 07:42:00 - [82] Edited by: Valan on 06/10/2008 07:43:35 Originally by: Thorliaron Edited by: Thorliaron on 05/10/2008 03:16:28 Originally by: Valan Originally by: Drakolus If there was a way to invest in instability and Chaos, I would SO be all in right now. There is some companies are making a fortune at the moment. The great thing is because we're a financial business our share price took a hit. Thing is our profits are up due to the instability. So I bought a few shares and I'm in profit. Now the USA has bailed out my profits will be up Monday. I'm looking at over 30% by Friday. People go on about the chain reaction among the economies of the world and in the same breath moan about the bail out helping only the rich. The issue affects everyone. The damage is already done but the result is that there is no confidence. Once that is restored the organisations affected can begin to move on. The bail outs in various countries are required to restore confidence. Without out it the world grinds to a halt. You wont see a share surge for a long time and tbh the bail out won't really solve anything. lol bearing in mind I'm small time I work at a brokers but I'm not a broker but you learn a bit on the side. I bought in at 3.08 last week or so. I sold at 3.60, bought back in at 3.00 this morning and sold at 3.80 10 minutes later. I've now bought back in again at around 3.20. So I'm ú1200 up and still have my original stake which is in profit. Now imagine you have 100s of professional brokers with a millions to spend and you tell me we're having a rough time It's a game I've just got my toe in the water regarding investment and information. I consider myself clueless but you have people commenting as though they're experts that have no idea. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.06 08:52:00 - [83] Hey cool! A scalper! Valan, do you work for yourself or work at a prop shop or something similar? A denizen of trade2win?
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.06 09:00:00 - [84] Edited by: Valan on 06/10/2008 09:00:23 lol nope like I say I'm small time. I know the company I work for is undervalued, the only reason we're taking a hit is because we're lumped in the financial sector. We don't hold assets as we're not a bank. Our only threat is thinning down of clients but with Governments protecting the large banks the threat has subsided. We're currecntly 20% in front on last years profit. We have a new project about to roll out which is going to be ahuge money maker for us and isn't dependent on having lots of clients. I would let you know who I work for but I'm not taking any responsibility for other peoples losses lol. All I'm saying is there is a silver lining and let the Government and banks sort it out and your assets will recover. All this media hype and political spin is actually making it worse. The media and general public isn't qualified to comment you're gonna have to start trusting the banks again. Some of these rescue plans may actually earn money for the Government in the future. There is no way giving average Joe a bundle to help with his mortgage is ever going to see a return. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Victor Vision Amarr Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.10.06 09:49:00 - [85] Edited by: Victor Vision on 06/10/2008 09:52:15 Originally by: Valan It's a game... No Valan, it is not a game. If you made the ú1200 trading stocks, what you did is you bought and sold parts of actual companies - with actual employees, customers etc. You speculate - or as some evil tongues might say: gamble - with actual assetes, which again provide income for actual people. Misspeculation in a broder scale can criple companies, and negatively effect the lives of people. To me, the stockmarkets seem very immature sometimes. The gambling attitude is wide spread as far as I can see. In public opinion, the trade "broker" has dropped a lot in its reputation. What the stock market needs is responsible handling. I am actually not a big friend of regulation, but if the brockers do not understand that this is not a game, and responsible behaviour does not happen, then the freedoms of brockers run risk of being strongly limited in the future - and rightfully so in my opinion. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.06 10:18:00 - [86] It's not gambling it's either information based trading or statistical analysis (although I can see how that can be gambling), usually it's both. The traders get paid to make money so they do that anyway they can within the rules. They're not emotionally involved they can't be or you couldn't make money. Who you should be levelling critiscm at is the people who make the decisions. Pension funds regularly sell their customers assets down the river. But at the end of the day a company exists to make money for its owners. They exploit employees to extort money from customers. As an employee you're a number and unless you can climb the ranks and take advantage you have to sit there and make the best of what you can to make a living. In my experience everyone does things in their own interest regardless of there social level. The gain is either material or emotional very rarely do people do something for nothing and they will rarely do themselves harm. Hence sometimes I make an effort to help someone out as long as I'm not really doing myself a injury. The only thing is some people are at the top of the pile and get a chance to shaft more people. But unfortunately you need them more in this case than they need you. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Victor Vision Amarr Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.10.06 15:58:00 - [87] Edited by: Victor Vision on 06/10/2008 15:59:57 Originally by: Valan Who you should be levelling critiscm at is the people who make the decisions. That is correct. As a small business owner I am in the fortunate position to know the heads of some fairly big companies. And yes, I do talk with them about those things. At the end of the day, especially people with a lot of money realize that there is much more to life. Taking responsibility in a moraly rewarding way can be a lot more rewarding than stacking up masses of money. Originally by: Valan But at the end of the day a company exists to make money for its owners. They exploit employees to extort money from customers. As an employee you're a number and unless you can climb the ranks and take advantage you have to sit there and make the best of what you can to make a living. Of course companies exist to make money. But that is not - or better: should not be - their sole purpose. The underlying idea of modern market economy combined with a democratic voting system is to benefit the people in the system. This tends to be overlooked sometimes. A system with the sole purpose of exploiting people and extorting money from them for the benefit of a few, is not in the interest of society. Neither is a company which operates this way in the interest of society. The more heads of financial, industrial and other institutions understand their moral responsibilities as much as their financial ones, the less regulation of modern economic systems will be neccessary. So in the end, it is very much in the interest of the "haves" to not only care about making money, but also about "doing good" for the rest of society, their customers and their employees - and most important of all - to act responsibly in general. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.06 16:05:00 - [88] I agree thats the way should be and I must admit even though I work for what could be considered a company at the pinnacle of capitalist excess they do treat employees very well. Not only that we give millions to charity every year. More often than not its the other way around especially in big companies. But at the end of the day the little people are at the mercy of the high flyers the only way to have a voice is the vote which sadly a lot of people don't use. Half of the time the vote ends up getting some in who only looks after themselves anyway. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Master Gotama	Posted - 2008.10.06 16:55:00 - [89] ItÆs time to wake up and smell the Credit Derivatives. Our current administration is responsible for failing to regulate one of the largest markets on the planet ($62 Trillion). Allowing companies to offer what amounts to insurance without regulating the loss reserves to ensure enough pay-out exists to cover these policies (many of which are for subprime mortgages). The resulting bankruptcies will create a domino effect of losses that will far exceed what we are seeing in the sub-prime market alone (remember AIG). The derivatives market is global and as such, the effect of this market going under will be felt around the world. Just look at the EU this weekend, they canÆt agree on a course of action among themselves and as such, they are starting to adopt the ôevery man for themselvesö approach. Good luck to you folks abroad who think you wonÆt have to deal with this. I certainly hope you are right.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.06 17:07:00 - [90] There are so many things that I would like to refute in this thread, but when it comes to economics, people like to throw in their talking points and run away thinking they've won the thread. I will say it again, this is not a failure of this administration, this administration has consistently tried to address this problem. This is a failure of Congress, on both sides of the aisle. What Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac did was EXACTLY what Enron did. Only difference is that F-M did it with implied public backing. When you really get to the nuts and bolts of the opus of this problem, with Affirmative Action lending, you'll find this is a failure of socialism, not a failure of capitalism. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony

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