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bailout approved, senate passed, good or bad?

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Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:36:00 - [1] So the revised bailout has been approved by both congress and the senate and they are saying the president may even be able to sign it today. Anyone understand what the new bailout will do for the average individual? -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:38:00 - [2] I'd say it's bad. We're going to see the same thing happen in 5-10 years only it will be multiplied 100x since those responsible have yet to learn their lessons. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:40:00 - [3] Gratulation to Henry Paulson, the 700 Billion Man. Pretty sure you will see "some" of this money magically disappear. Good Job America. The only numbers I care about are 3-2-1-launch..
kor anon Amarr Sons Of The Fallen BROTHERS GRIM.	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:43:00 - [4] Good for the world bad for my plan of word domination
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:59:00 - [5] Absolutely stupid move. The same mistakes of the past 20 years will be repeated in the next 10 and the world will slump into another Great Depression. Gee thanks America . . .
Asestorian Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:00:00 - [6] My understanding is that either way, US taxpayers are going to suffer, and this method reduces the long-term pain somewhat, despite being extremely unpalatable in the short term. But I don't live in the US, and I don't understand economics really, so I can only go on what other people say. --- Originally by: CCP Atropos Destiny Balls
Raymond Sterns Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:05:00 - [7] This has to be the most expensive band-aid the US has ever put on it's economy. I hope Bush gets run over by a bus on his way to the white house. _
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:07:00 - [8] Listen, this is one of those few things that isn't Bush's fault. This is the work of the political old-boys club that was Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. If you did any research, you would have known that Bush has consistently warned Congress that Fannie and Freddy were dangerously affecting the economy. /rant off/ _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Pwett Listen, this is one of those few things that isn't Bush's fault. This is the work of the political old-boys club that was Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. If you did any research, you would have known that Bush has consistently warned Congress that Fannie and Freddy were dangerously affecting the economy. /rant off/ it's ok for Bush. At least this is his real legacy to the World, not some unimportant war in Afg. or Irak which are lost anyway. The only numbers I care about are 3-2-1-launch..
Raymond Sterns Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:18:00 - [10] Originally by: Pwett Listen, this is one of those few things that isn't Bush's fault. This is the work of the political old-boys club that was Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. If you did any research, you would have known that Bush has consistently warned Congress that Fannie and Freddy were dangerously affecting the economy. /rant off/ He has to sign it before it gets passed, you muffin. I know it's not his fault. _
Of Montreal Gallente The Sunshine Club	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:33:00 - [11] Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Edited by: MineralOel Steuer on 03/10/2008 17:49:35 Gratulation to Henry Paulson, the 700 Billion Man. Pretty sure you will see "some" of this money magically disappear. Good Job America. Edit My Opinion as an European, you should face the consequences NOW because in some years the USA won't be a Superpower in Economys anymore. China and India will probably eat you alive. They already are eating us alive, they have all our freakin' jobs. As an American I think it will take some real horrible chain of events to change our mind set. I think we need it. We are too complacent, greedy, and glutinous. This is what we get for living beyond our means and living off of credit. We need to change our thinking and our culture. I have 1 credit card I only use for emergencies. I have only had to use it once, and paid it off promptly. I say if somebody wants a new toy they save for it like we use to in the good ole days. People in America use spending money on new shiny toys as a way to help patch up some kind of void in their lives, instead of figuring out what is truly missing. We don't seem to have a sense of community, or have an appreciation for the little things in life.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:35:00 - [12] I can't say I disagree, but how can the common Joe learn to not spend above his means when the Government does it as a matter of business. We need a constitutional amendment that prevents the Government from running a deficit. Anyone with me? :) _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Of Montreal Gallente The Sunshine Club	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Pwett Listen, this is one of those few things that isn't Bush's fault. This is the work of the political old-boys club that was Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. If you did any research, you would have known that Bush has consistently warned Congress that Fannie and Freddy were dangerously affecting the economy. /rant off/ Well it doesn't help that we also have to pay billions of dollars every week on a war that we should have never started in the first place. Another thing that doesn't help was Bush's deregulation of the mortgage industry. Republicans = deregulation & small government.
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:40:00 - [14] The trouble is that when the banks go down, they take EVERYONE down with them. I can see exactly why this bill needed to pass. On the other hand, it sets a worrying precedent.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.10.03 19:04:00 - [15] The thing is, this bailout is only postponing things, and not for long. Not for long at all. - The current trouble was caused by subprimes, estimated to about 1000 billions. But that's only the visible part of the iceberg. - It looks very likely that something similar will happen with education credits, and consummation credits, and that's much bigger. - The CDS (Credit Default Swaps) and CDO bubble is about to burst as well. It was basically a way for investors to insure their products against losses, but also to insure it for way above their value. Imagine you take 10k$ worth of google shares, claim it's worth 100k$, and insure it for 100k. You'll pay more insurance fees, but some things are bound to loss value, and when it happens... The subprimes are peanuts compared to that. This unholy mess is something between 50 000 and 63 000 billions! I read some confidential edition (meaning, you have to pay a lot, like 1000$/year, to subsribe to it, but it's a professionnal tool) of an economic newsletter from 4 months ago, that foretold the wallstreet crisis would start in hte following months. It also foretold the CDS/CDO thing before the end of the year. Hedge funds, among other things, are involved to the neck in this mess. I hope you don't have any saving in them, cause their chances of survival are low. ------------------------------------------
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.10.03 19:05:00 - [16] im thinking about moving, Brazil is nice i hear Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Raymond Sterns Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.10.03 19:20:00 - [17] **** this, I'm moving to Canuckistan. _
Ademaro Imre Caldari Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.03 20:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Jacob Mei So the revised bailout has been approved by both congress and the senate and they are saying the president may even be able to sign it today. Anyone understand what the new bailout will do for the average individual? It is a wonderful day for Americans. Toy wooden arrows are now cheaper because of the bill, and if you bike to work, your employer can give your tax credits. A truly wonderful spectacle.
Neamus	Posted - 2008.10.03 20:37:00 - [19] It's good that the whole world wont suffer as much as it would have if the bail out didn't happen. It sucks giant donkey balls that the average tax payer in the US is bailing out the arrogant fk wit finance monkeys. Those who get paid huge sums of money for failing, and looking down their noses at average hard working people while they are doing it.. They should all be round up and shot in my opinion. There's far to much admiration and focus on material wealth in the world. Fat cats swanning around in silk suits, suits that if they were sold could probably feed a starving family in a 3rd world country for 3 years, or even set them up with a farm for life. I'm pretty easy going as most that know me in rl will tell you, but these people make my blood boil. They shouldn't be allowed to breed. Capitalism FTL.
MataSanos	Posted - 2008.10.03 20:44:00 - [20] but why dont print again the "Green Backs" worked well for Lincon btw USA citizen should destroy fed reserve bank (if u dont know is a private bank)
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.03 20:49:00 - [21] Originally by: kor anon Good for the world bad for my plan of word domination I sincerely hope this is an epic typo, because all you need to do to obtain word domination is time spent improving your english subject skills like grammar and spelling. Having a dictionary and thesaurus on hand is also good.
TCup Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.03 21:00:00 - [22] Go back to sleep America, turn on your TV and watch Gladiators The 'bailout' is in fact a handout to the super rich, just a tax payers guarntee to keep their riches safe and sound, and in the same way Bush & Co (or more accurately Corp ) conned the American people to ignore their constitution and spend 2 trillion (thats 2,000,000,000,000) dollars on a war on terrorism, that only benifited the super rich. The Fed is in fact not Federal, or a Reserve, it is a privately owned cartel that has a monopoly on the 'creation' of dollars. The con is to get the American tax payer to pick up the bill, and that is all this is about. Go back to sleep America, turn on your TV and watch Gladiators
Atomos Darksun Infortunatus Eventus Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.10.03 21:06:00 - [23] This isn't capitalism destroying itself, it's capitalism working as it should. It's just that the government tries to step in and patch it which only makes it worse. In a true free market there should be no outside involvement. There should be no stupid businessmen crying for government help when their company goes under from THEIR OWN STUPID MISTAKES. Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming
Captain Hudson Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.03 21:12:00 - [24] Someone bought a house in michigan for $1 off ebay, now thats 50p for me, ima get me some of that
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.03 21:33:00 - [25] the best way to fix everything is to just point and laugh so those responsible feel stupid and will learn from their errors --------------------- It's me! Your lovable forum warrior!!!
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.10.03 21:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Atomos Darksun This isn't capitalism destroying itself, it's capitalism working as it should. It's just that the government tries to step in and patch it which only makes it worse. In a true free market there should be no outside involvement. There should be no stupid businessmen crying for government help when their company goes under from THEIR OWN STUPID MISTAKES. Except that this brand of pure capitalism won't prevent rogue upper echelon members of choosing short-term profitable, long-term horrible ways of gaining money, and run with the money before the consequences appear. The most stable system around seem to be strictly regulated capitalism, with a bit of socialism.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.03 22:22:00 - [27] I only have one thing to say. Though excuse me if i say it a several times in a row. gay gay gay gay gay gay gay gay gay
Of Montreal Gallente The Sunshine Club	Posted - 2008.10.03 22:35:00 - [28] Originally by: TCup Go back to sleep America, turn on your TV and watch Gladiators The 'bailout' is in fact a handout to the super rich, just a tax payers guarntee to keep their riches safe and sound, and in the same way Bush & Co (or more accurately Corp ) conned the American people to ignore their constitution and spend 2 trillion (thats 2,000,000,000,000) dollars on a war on terrorism, that only benifited the super rich. The Fed is in fact not Federal, or a Reserve, it is a privately owned cartel that has a monopoly on the 'creation' of dollars. The con is to get the American tax payer to pick up the bill, and that is all this is about. Go back to sleep America, turn on your TV and watch Gladiators We don't all watch gladiators in the US, thats a vicious stereotype. Where are you from? I want to make a generalization about you now.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.10.03 22:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Pwett I'd say it's bad. We're going to see the same thing happen in 5-10 years only it will be multiplied 100x since those responsible have yet to learn their lessons. The rich never learn, they just know enough to remove themselves from direct liable to keep what they have intact then continue on with their parasitic existence. Football stadium and shot to the back of the head. If the state bought parts of the banks with the recovery plan then fine, if they just handed money over as was done over here after Soros butchered the currency in the early 90s then it's very bad indeed. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Kianita Kititalia	Posted - 2008.10.03 22:51:00 - [30] America needs an enima!!! it's time for the system to colapse, we should be looking at regionalising our government and preparing for the worst ecanomic downturn ever. Nope we sink more money into bailing out the already super rich for about another 2.5 years till the market fails us, then another 2.5 years till ther is no more united states and we become a true republic again. Except for Texas, they will become there own country being that they are the only state that is self suficiant. Anarchy will reign
Rob Z0mbie	Posted - 2008.10.03 22:54:00 - [31] lolamerica
Of Montreal Gallente The Sunshine Club	Posted - 2008.10.03 23:03:00 - [32] Originally by: Kianita Kititalia Except for Texas, they will become there own country being that they are the only state that is self suficiant. Anarchy will reign That would be great then we could finally bomb'em. Hey maybe we could get rid of the entire south.
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.03 23:27:00 - [33] Edited by: Sharupak on 03/10/2008 23:28:21 Yes, 7000 bucks per tax payer plus whatever ****ed up interest rate (probably a variable rate LOL! wouldnt that be irony) the government is going to borrow it at and then sit on the interest and late fees untill the next presidency and the next and so on until the government is close to bankruptcy and then they will start paying it. But they wont want to tell tax payers that, so they will just say they are having massive budget problems so they will take a giant wizz on the budget of our universal healthcare system that one of the previous presidents dry humped through congress and old people and cancer patients will just get the middle finger and shipped off to the glue factory. Does anybody actually believe the government is going to run a successful financial firm. I mean jesus christ, look at what they do with the post office which is a pretty straight foward buisness. Imagine how they are going to missmanage "FDICAIG". But hey, no sweat because the taxpayer is a non voting share holder! Just keep going to the well to keep it afloat! We are just prolonging the agony and making it worse as we go.
Recluse Viramor Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.04 00:07:00 - [34] The bailout was an incredibly stupid and short-sited maneuver that gives the government that ultimately got the US into the mess the unlimited power to do what they want in an attempt to get us out of it. I have no doubt that the next several decades will be one corruption scandal after another.
Ademaro Imre Caldari Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.04 00:15:00 - [35] Originally by: Sharupak Does anybody actually believe the government is going to run a successful financial firm. I mean jesus christ, look at what they do with the post office which is a pretty straight foward buisness. Imagine how they are going to missmanage "FDICAIG". But hey, no sweat because the taxpayer is a non voting share holder! Just keep going to the well to keep it afloat! The House and Senate were unable to run their respective cafeterias and finally let them be run by private firms that actually made a profit instead of deficits. This was all caused by federally mandated entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.04 00:17:00 - [36] Wow...there's a lot of hate for the financial system here. The bailout was a bad choice, but not bailing out would be a terrible choice. It's bad because as somebody has said, it causes an environment where it encourages the same problems in the future. Everybody sees the government bailing out the "too big to fail" institutions, or at least helping them out (e.g. Bear), so now people know that all you have to be is really really big, and you can do whatever you want: the government will help you out. Not bailing out however means we all go back to the financial stone-age. Ignore what happens at the "wall street" level (because anybody who needs to know already knows, i.e. financial workers/students), at the "main street" level it means people no longer have access to credit. Admittedly this no-credit situation is more pronounced in the US, but all around the world credit would be harder to obtain for things like home loans, car loans, and credit cards. Already we're seeing commercial banks going under (wachovia, washington mutual) which is a direct threat to people's savings. Yes, savings are federally insured, but if people lose faith in the banking system as a whole, and everybody makes a run for their money at the banks, there's no way the fed could print off enough money, and everybody loses. Well..in the US anyway. The rest of the world takes a hit; a harder and longer hit then if the US was bailed out, but we'd get over it. TLDR: bail out bad in long term. Not bail out so bad in short term we might not get to the long term. No choice: we had to bail out.
TCup Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.04 00:17:00 - [37] Originally by: Of Montreal Originally by: TCup Go back to sleep America, turn on your TV and watch Gladiators The 'bailout' is in fact a handout to the super rich, just a tax payers guarntee to keep their riches safe and sound, and in the same way Bush & Co (or more accurately Corp ) conned the American people to ignore their constitution and spend 2 trillion (thats 2,000,000,000,000) dollars on a war on terrorism, that only benifited the super rich. The Fed is in fact not Federal, or a Reserve, it is a privately owned cartel that has a monopoly on the 'creation' of dollars. The con is to get the American tax payer to pick up the bill, and that is all this is about. Go back to sleep America, turn on your TV and watch Gladiators We don't all watch gladiators in the US, thats a vicious stereotype. Where are you from? I want to make a generalization about you now. Just paraphrasing 3 of my favourite Americans, Bill Hicks, G Edward Griffin and of course Ron Paul If the 'politicans' where I come from had just a tiny fraction of the intelligence, integrity and foresight of these 3 patriots, then I'd be very proud to be an American. However, they don't, and neither do the vast majority of the corporate ****suckers in the senate. And if I seem to be bitter and angry, then hey, thats just the way I am Go back to sleep America
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.04 00:56:00 - [38] Edited by: Sharupak on 04/10/2008 00:56:59 Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Wow...there's a lot of hate for the financial system here. The bailout was a bad choice, but not bailing out would be a terrible choice. It's bad because as somebody has said, it causes an environment where it encourages the same problems in the future. Everybody sees the government bailing out the "too big to fail" institutions, or at least helping them out (e.g. Bear), so now people know that all you have to be is really really big, and you can do whatever you want: the government will help you out. Not bailing out however means we all go back to the financial stone-age. Ignore what happens at the "wall street" level (because anybody who needs to know already knows, i.e. financial workers/students), at the "main street" level it means people no longer have access to credit. Admittedly this no-credit situation is more pronounced in the US, but all around the world credit would be harder to obtain for things like home loans, car loans, and credit cards. Already we're seeing commercial banks going under (wachovia, washington mutual) which is a direct threat to people's savings. Yes, savings are federally insured, but if people lose faith in the banking system as a whole, and everybody makes a run for their money at the banks, there's no way the fed could print off enough money, and everybody loses. Well..in the US anyway. The rest of the world takes a hit; a harder and longer hit then if the US was bailed out, but we'd get over it. TLDR: bail out bad in long term. Not bail out so bad in short term we might not get to the long term. No choice: we had to bail out. How would it be worse in the short term? Nobody knows the full effects of either situation, but you can make the obvious distinction of the two by realizing that the short term doesnt have the added effect of interest owed on 700 billion dollars that the government has to borrow! Later on, you are just sticking it to the taxpayers to the tune of 7grand + interest! Another scary idea is the government slapping the taxpayers to the bill as non voting share holders, which is really language for the lender that probably says something like this... "in case of default and vested corporations do not recover persuant to section b subsection 24a the american taxpayer ass is tacked on as surety as we know the fiscal responsibility of the United States of America and wouldnt loan it the money to lease a ****ing yugo without some sort of collateral!"
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.04 00:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Originally by: Sharupak Does anybody actually believe the government is going to run a successful financial firm. I mean jesus christ, look at what they do with the post office which is a pretty straight foward buisness. Imagine how they are going to missmanage "FDICAIG". But hey, no sweat because the taxpayer is a non voting share holder! Just keep going to the well to keep it afloat! The House and Senate were unable to run their respective cafeterias and finally let them be run by private firms that actually made a profit instead of deficits. This was all caused by federally mandated entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. I am not shocked!
Neverine Crux	Posted - 2008.10.04 01:24:00 - [40] Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Pwett it's ok for Bush. At least this is his real legacy to the World, not some unimportant war in Afg. or Irak which are lost anyway. It's lost how?
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.04 01:36:00 - [41] you guys do know the bail out wont fix the economy like tomorrow?. It's going to take years.
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.04 01:37:00 - [42] Originally by: Neverine Crux Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Pwett it's ok for Bush. At least this is his real legacy to the World, not some unimportant war in Afg. or Irak which are lost anyway. It's lost how? Because the taliban are still there and are as strong as they where 7 years ago?
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.10.04 01:43:00 - [43] Originally by: Thorliaron Originally by: Neverine Crux Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Pwett it's ok for Bush. At least this is his real legacy to the World, not some unimportant war in Afg. or Irak which are lost anyway. It's lost how? Because the taliban are still there and are as strong as they where 7 years ago? You seriously expect a government in exile to be wiped out in less than 7 years? By your arguement you could claim that the allys lost WW2 because the **** movement is still alive and well in various parts of the world.
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.04 01:48:00 - [44] Edited by: Thorliaron on 04/10/2008 01:49:31 Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Thorliaron Originally by: Neverine Crux Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Pwett it's ok for Bush. At least this is his real legacy to the World, not some unimportant war in Afg. or Irak which are lost anyway. It's lost how? Because the taliban are still there and are as strong as they where 7 years ago? You seriously expect a government in exile to be wiped out in less than 7 years? By your arguement you could claim that the allys lost WW2 because the ** movement is still alive and well in various parts of the world. errr except all the major players in the ** movement killed themselves or died/where caught soon after the end of ww2 where as osama and his cheifs are still around.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.10.04 02:10:00 - [45] Edited by: Jacob Mei on 04/10/2008 02:12:27 Originally by: Thorliaron Edited by: Thorliaron on 04/10/2008 01:49:31 Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Thorliaron Originally by: Neverine Crux Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Pwett it's ok for Bush. At least this is his real legacy to the World, not some unimportant war in Afg. or Irak which are lost anyway. It's lost how? Because the taliban are still there and are as strong as they where 7 years ago? You seriously expect a government in exile to be wiped out in less than 7 years? By your arguement you could claim that the allys lost WW2 because the ** movement is still alive and well in various parts of the world. errr except all the major players in the movement killed themselves or died/where caught soon after the end of ww2 where as osama and his cheifs are still around. The Taliban is not Binladins organization but was a government that harbored him and refused to surrender him to the US when it was discovered that he was in Afganastan. Bin ladins organization is Al-Qaeda which the US military forces, according to wiki, 2/3rds of the "major players" have either been caught or killed. So yeah, I wouldnt call this a war that hasnt seen results, just an unpopular one. Also, there are cases of ** and Japanese officers that escaped capture and trial after the war ended by going underground.
TCup Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.04 02:34:00 - [46] Errrr....back on topic people, remember the total decimation of Wall St. Yeah, thats right, totally broke, bankrupt, running to the senate to get the American tax payers to foot the bill, all the while pretending the war on terror is some kind of moral crusade, just like the mythical weapons of mass destruction that never existed and never will... Except the WMDs that Warren Buffet talked about several years ago, the derivatives, you know, the smart people that totally wiped out the American dream George Carlin called it about right, the dream you can only believe in if your asleep Go back to sleep America, turn on the TV, you don't want to miss Gladiators
Elektrea Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.10.04 02:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Jacob Mei So the revised bailout has been approved by both congress and the senate and they are saying the president may even be able to sign it today. Anyone understand what the new bailout will do for the average individual? you do know the FBI are investigating and will probably bring up charges? ----------
Elektrea Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.10.04 02:50:00 - [48] Originally by: Pwett I'd say it's bad. We're going to see the same thing happen in 5-10 years only it will be multiplied 100x since those responsible have yet to learn their lessons. You know the FBI are investigating? Wouldn't doubt charges would be brought up
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.04 02:55:00 - [49] Originally by: Sharupak Edited by: Sharupak on 04/10/2008 00:56:59 Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana TLDR: bail out bad in long term. Not bail out so bad in short term we might not get to the long term. No choice: we had to bail out. How would it be worse in the short term? Nobody knows the full effects of either situation, but you can make the obvious distinction of the two by realising that the short term doest have the added effect of interest owed on 700 billion dollars that the government has to borrow! Later on, you are just sticking it to the taxpayers to the tune of 7grand + interest! Another scary idea is the government slapping the taxpayers to the bill as non voting share holders, which is really language for the lender that probably says something like this... "in case of default and vested corporations do not recover pursuant to section b subsection 24a the American taxpayer ass is tacked on as surety as we know the fiscal responsibility of the United States of America and wouldn't loan it the money to lease a ***ing yugo without some sort of collateral!" If it all goes to hell, what we're seeing now will be nothing. Yes the US will have to pay interest, but the US is already 10 trillion dollars in debt. Adding another 700billion to stabilise the situation is not too huge a deal as it might otherwise appear. How could it get worse? I'll try to explain, but keep in mind I'm not working Finance, so I almost certainly do not have the full picture. I'm simply a student of finance who's taking an active interest. The banking system relies on trust, trust that the other guy in the deal will pay up. In normal times if one guy defaulted it was ok, because it was just one deal or one customer; your whole bank book wouldn't be wiped out. Even if a huge bank collapsed, the pain could be spread around and absorbed by the survivors. E.g. Long Term Capital Management. This was a multi-billion dollar hedge fund that went down because the Russian government defaulted on their debts. An excellent choice as it saved their own citizens from most of the pain, but it ended up exporting the financial pain to everybody outside the country who invested, but I digress. LTCM was deemed too large to fail, but instead of simply bailing the fund out, the US governemnt "encouraged" the other investment banks to chip in and buy up the bad debt. I think at the time the technical explanation was "it's a shitcake and we all have to take a big wet bite" This solution was ok, because the economy was good and the other IBs were doing well enough to absorb the damage. Cut to today. Today's economy is shot, the IBs have lost massive amounts of money, 3 out of the 5 IBs in the US have gone under. Many small commercial banks have gone under, and now the majors like Wachovia and WaMu have gone as well. The thing that's missing today is confidence and counter-party trust. Each bank no longer trusts another bank to remain solvent past the closing of business on any given day, and as such refuse to do business with each other. In all seriousness, the financial system in on the precipice right now. We haven't actually fallen off just yet, though we're leaning in that direction and losing our balance. Yes, several banks are gone, but the system is still intact, only* because the Fed is sitting there guaranteeing deals and injecting money into the system. The current limited amount of dealing going on is pretty much dependent on the Fed implicitly guaranteeing money. If the Feb leaves, nobody does business, more banks go under and we have to rebuild the financial system from scratch. The market has simply assumed the rescue bill would pass because to them it's such a no-brainer. And when it didn't, we all say the resultant 800 point collapse.
mishkof Caldari Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2008.10.04 06:12:00 - [50] I have not love for Bush myself, however, the people that are placing the blame solely on him are either dishonest, dumb, or worse, a comination of both. The reasons for the bailout, and the bailout itself are manifestations of 40 years of rot in a system that only severe turbulance will shift the downward momentum. You need to look no further then the irresponsible legislation and spending done over the last 40 years...When was the last time we had a balanced budget? We cheer when it is "kinda" close. If you think it is just the U.S you are wrong again. Why do you think the worlds markets suffer when one of the arms of the global economy falter. That is like me wondering why the stock market actualy reacted to whether it was going to get the bailout. It went up when the banks thought they were going to get a free 700 billion and went down when they though otherwise. Hmmm. If you cannot see the writing on the wall then you either let your political party do your thinking for you, or you are illiterate. Doasnt matter which as both are equaly debilitating. *disclaimer - I am a politicaly independent American, as I was tired of having a dog in a fixed fight. I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.10.04 06:25:00 - [51] my business teacher, when he talks about this, says that if this happened in china many people would be getting executed. He seems to think that's a good way to keep people honest ^___^
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.04 10:00:00 - [52] Edited by: Akita T on 04/10/2008 10:01:23 Dow Jones index going down... HARD. And it'll keep doing it. Goodnight USA, nice knowing you by the way. I'm gonna' miss most USofA players P.S. On second thought, maybe we can finally start complaining about USian goldfarmers soon ?
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates	Posted - 2008.10.04 10:35:00 - [53] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 04/10/2008 10:01:23 Dow Jones index going down... HARD. And it'll keep doing it. Goodnight USA, nice knowing you by the way. I'm gonna' miss most USofA players P.S. On second thought, maybe we can finally start complaining about USian goldfarmers soon ? oh come on i dont think its going to be THAT bad.....right........RIGHT?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.04 10:49:00 - [54] Originally by: Arvald oh come on i dont think its going to be THAT bad.....right........RIGHT? A good portion of the reported GDP of the USA is "fake" GDP (as in, stuff like rents to oneself, intentionally under-reporting inflation so that the GDP is adjusted too little for it or other insanely convoluted means of inflating the "official" GDP above the real value worthy of Enron-level praise). So, out of a "nearly" 13 trillion $ reported GDP you're lucky if it's closer to 10 trillion $, but of "today's dollars"... and the $ will be taking an even deeper plunge than it already has, lowering your ACTUAL GDP to something laughable... so let's just call your economy as a whole "screwed". Bottom line, in reality, China probably has double the GDP of the USA, if not more. Sure, it also has more than four times the population, but at least they reinvest a huge amount of their GDP into infrastructure and various other improvements to productivity, and will VERY LIKELY pass the USA in real GDP per capita in a decade, tops. Now... tell me... wouldn't that mean USofA citizens will be more likely to be "goldfarmers" in MMOs rather than Chinese ?
Of Montreal Gallente The Sunshine Club	Posted - 2008.10.04 12:49:00 - [55] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Arvald oh come on i dont think its going to be THAT bad.....right........RIGHT? A good portion of the reported GDP of the USA is "fake" GDP (as in, stuff like rents to oneself, intentionally under-reporting inflation so that the GDP is adjusted too little for it or other insanely convoluted means of inflating the "official" GDP above the real value worthy of Enron-level praise). So, out of a "nearly" 13 trillion $ reported GDP you're lucky if it's closer to 10 trillion $, but of "today's dollars"... and the $ will be taking an even deeper plunge than it already has, lowering your ACTUAL GDP to something laughable... so let's just call your economy as a whole "screwed". Bottom line, in reality, China probably has double the GDP of the USA, if not more. Sure, it also has more than four times the population, but at least they reinvest a huge amount of their GDP into infrastructure and various other improvements to productivity, and will VERY LIKELY pass the USA in real GDP per capita in a decade, tops. Now... tell me... wouldn't that mean USofA citizens will be more likely to be "goldfarmers" in MMOs rather than Chinese ? What you fail to realize is when our economy takes a dive, other world economies like China will follow. The majority of what China makes gets shipped to the US, we have less money = we buy less stuff = China loses money. Whats with the goldfarming comments? You afraid of some competition or something?
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.04 15:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Jacob Mei Edited by: Jacob Mei on 04/10/2008 02:12:27 Originally by: Thorliaron Edited by: Thorliaron on 04/10/2008 01:49:31 Originally by: Jacob Mei Originally by: Thorliaron Originally by: Neverine Crux Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Pwett it's ok for Bush. At least this is his real legacy to the World, not some unimportant war in Afg. or Irak which are lost anyway. It's lost how? Because the taliban are still there and are as strong as they where 7 years ago? You seriously expect a government in exile to be wiped out in less than 7 years? By your arguement you could claim that the allys lost WW2 because the ** movement is still alive and well in various parts of the world. errr except all the major players in the movement killed themselves or died/where caught soon after the end of ww2 where as osama and his cheifs are still around. The Taliban is not Binladins organization but was a government that harbored him and refused to surrender him to the US when it was discovered that he was in Afganastan. Bin ladins organization is Al-Qaeda which the US military forces, according to wiki, 2/3rds of the "major players" have either been caught or killed. So yeah, I wouldnt call this a war that hasnt seen results, just an unpopular one. Also, there are cases of ** and Japanese officers that escaped capture and trial after the war ended by going underground. Bin Laden was able to forge an alliance between the Taliban and his Al-Qaeda organization. It is understood that al-Qaeda-trained fighters known as the 055 Brigade were integrated with the Taliban army between 1997 and 2001. During Osama bin Laden's stay in Afghanistan, he may have helped finance the Taliban. He even blew up Northern Alliance leader for them, they are one and the same.
Drakolus Amarr Dopehead Industries FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.10.04 15:21:00 - [57] The Worlds most powerful Military (up for argument but imo it is) is linked to one of the Worlds most unstable economies. Plus we (America or at least the Government) have shown a willingness bordering on eagerness to use said Military. I hate to say it but chances are good if we go down, a lot of other Countries are going down with us. Either through Economic links (most of our allies) or just Countries who get in the way when we have very little left to lose. If there was a way to invest in instability and Chaos, I would SO be all in right now.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.10.04 17:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Thorliaron Bin Laden was able to forge an alliance between the Taliban and his Al-Qaeda organization. It is understood that al-Qaeda-trained fighters known as the 055 Brigade were integrated with the Taliban army between 1997 and 2001. During Osama bin Laden's stay in Afghanistan, he may have helped finance the Taliban. He even blew up Northern Alliance leader for them, they are one and the same. Hardly, thats called being an Ally. The only way the Taliban and Al-Qaeda could be one and the same is if Al-Qaeda was created because the Taliban commissioned its formation or if bin Laden was a part of the Taliban government, both of which were not the case. Anyway this is besides the point. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Vina Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.04 17:46:00 - [59] best way to put this is that They are trying to fix a problem caused by borrowed money, with borrowed money. it will not work. ----------------------------------- my opinion is my own.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.04 18:17:00 - [60] Originally by: Of Montreal What you fail to realize is when our economy takes a dive, other world economies like China will follow. The majority of what China makes gets shipped to the US, we have less money = we buy less stuff = China loses money. Actually, China is shipping more and more into the EU and other areas, the USofA might be the single largest importer of Chinese goods, but if the USA economy gets squashed, they still have places to export a good deal of their stuff. Also, internal consumption is heavily on the rise anyway, so, again, I don't see a significant problem with the USA heavily reducing their imports. China's is a (mostly) self-sufficient economy, with plenty of exports which drive quality of living up heavily. Even if they'd have to cease all exports, worst case scenario they don't have such a large increase as before, hardly in danger of immediate collapse. Out of all countries in the world, China is one of the better suited ones to pass through a "depression" least harmed. _ Alternate resist display \|\| Mission reward revamp \|\| better nanofix
Of Montreal Gallente The Sunshine Club	Posted - 2008.10.04 22:59:00 - [61] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Of Montreal What you fail to realize is when our economy takes a dive, other world economies like China will follow. The majority of what China makes gets shipped to the US, we have less money = we buy less stuff = China loses money. Actually, China is shipping more and more into the EU and other areas, the USofA might be the single largest importer of Chinese goods, but if the USA economy gets squashed, they still have places to export a good deal of their stuff. Also, internal consumption is heavily on the rise anyway, so, again, I don't see a significant problem with the USA heavily reducing their imports. China's is a (mostly) self-sufficient economy, with plenty of exports which drive quality of living up heavily. Even if they'd have to cease all exports, worst case scenario they don't have such a large increase as before, hardly in danger of immediate collapse. Out of all countries in the world, China is one of the better suited ones to pass through a "depression" least harmed. Didn't the Chinese Stock Market just lose 2/3's of its value? Linkage Linkage 2 They are in better shape then us, but if you think China won't take a big hit from our failure you're wrong. Not only are we the largest importer of Chinese goods they also own a good portion of our debt. Bank of China says it owns $5 billion of subprime loans, and that's on top of billions more of Chinese domestic bad debt.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.04 23:36:00 - [62] Originally by: Drakolus If there was a way to invest in instability and Chaos, I would SO be all in right now. Yes, yes you can. Look into investing in futures and/or options. I'd recommend futures before options due to their complexity. Or simply invest in CFDs. All three rely on movements in the price to generate profit, and you can easily structure it so you make money when the price goes down. Originally by: Of Montreal They are in better shape then us, but if you think China won't take a big hit from our failure you're wrong. Not only are we the largest importer of Chinese goods they also own a good portion of our debt. Bank of China says it owns $5 billion of subprime loans, and that's on top of billions more of Chinese domestic bad debt. China's stock market has taken a hit, but keep in mind China is not as well capitalised as the US. Where the US stock market is worth between 100% - 150% of it's economy (that's normally, probably not true now), China's is worth around 2%. Therefore if the stockmarket is wiped out completely, the economy is not really affected. Also, the Chinese economy was is a massive independent bubble, and it burst due to the bubble, not because of the credit crisis. Secondly the Chinese economy, as Akita said, is not as dependent on the US as it was previously. Projections state China's growth will drop to around 8%, down from slightly over 10%. A slowdown yes, but many people in the US would kill for 8% growth right now. This growth is partly dependent on exports to the EU, but also driven by internal demand. To put it in perspective, the US has a population of around 300mil and the whole EU has around 730mil. China has a population, and most of it's a growing middle class, of 1.3 billion. And lastly with regards to China owning US debt. Yes, 5 billion is a lot of money. Except China has 1.8 trillion or so in foreign reserves. If they lost all 5 billion, the Bank of China would probably just shrug and say "meh, we lost more on our stock market collapse".
dr doooo	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:06:00 - [63] Originally by: Of Montreal Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Of Montreal What you fail to realize is when our economy takes a dive, other world economies like China will follow. The majority of what China makes gets shipped to the US, we have less money = we buy less stuff = China loses money. Actually, China is shipping more and more into the EU and other areas, the USofA might be the single largest importer of Chinese goods, but if the USA economy gets squashed, they still have places to export a good deal of their stuff. Also, internal consumption is heavily on the rise anyway, so, again, I don't see a significant problem with the USA heavily reducing their imports. China's is a (mostly) self-sufficient economy, with plenty of exports which drive quality of living up heavily. Even if they'd have to cease all exports, worst case scenario they don't have such a large increase as before, hardly in danger of immediate collapse. Out of all countries in the world, China is one of the better suited ones to pass through a "depression" least harmed. Didn't the Chinese Stock Market just lose 2/3's of its value? Linkage Linkage 2 They are in better shape then us, but if you think China won't take a big hit from our failure you're wrong. Not only are we the largest importer of Chinese goods they also own a good portion of our debt. Bank of China says it owns $5 billion of subprime loans, and that's on top of billions more of Chinese domestic bad debt. Haven't China been the major buyer of US Govt. Bonds for a while? I freely admit that I know little about the US Banking system, but I was shocked when I learnt a year or so ago that the federal reserve is supposedly owned by a secret group of bankers, and run in their own interests. Now maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can put me straight here? But if that is the case, then these people have profited from each depression in the last 100 years, not least in the form of legislative gains. Today it would seem to me that these same individuals (if they exist?) are now selling you, your kids, and your grand kids economic future in the usa, in order to jostle for a more advantageous economic position for themselves in relation to the emerging global powers. Someone with some knowledge of the subject please put me straight here.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:07:00 - [64] Originally by: dr doooo Haven't China been the major buyer of US Govt. Bonds for a while? I freely admit that I know little about the US Banking system, but I was shocked when I learnt a year or so ago that the federal reserve is supposedly owned by a secret group of bankers, and run in their own interests. Now maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can put me straight here? But if that is the case, then these people have profited from each depression in the last 100 years, not least in the form of legislative gains. Today it would seem to me that these same individuals (if they exist?) are now selling you, your kids, and your grand kids economic future in the usa, in order to jostle for a more advantageous economic position for themselves in relation to the emerging global powers. Someone with some knowledge of the subject please put me straight here. Armstrong also never walked on the moon.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:14:00 - [65] Originally by: Drakolus If there was a way to invest in instability and Chaos, I would SO be all in right now. There is some companies are making a fortune at the moment. The great thing is because we're a financial business our share price took a hit. Thing is our profits are up due to the instability. So I bought a few shares and I'm in profit. Now the USA has bailed out my profits will be up Monday. I'm looking at over 30% by Friday. People go on about the chain reaction among the economies of the world and in the same breath moan about the bail out helping only the rich. The issue affects everyone. The damage is already done but the result is that there is no confidence. Once that is restored the organisations affected can begin to move on. The bail outs in various countries are required to restore confidence. Without out it the world grinds to a halt. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
dr doooo	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:29:00 - [66] Edited by: dr doooo on 05/10/2008 00:30:50 Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Originally by: dr doooo Haven't China been the major buyer of US Govt. Bonds for a while? I freely admit that I know little about the US Banking system, but I was shocked when I learnt a year or so ago that the federal reserve is supposedly owned by a secret group of bankers, and run in their own interests. Now maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can put me straight here? But if that is the case, then these people have profited from each depression in the last 100 years, not least in the form of legislative gains. Today it would seem to me that these same individuals (if they exist?) are now selling you, your kids, and your grand kids economic future in the usa, in order to jostle for a more advantageous economic position for themselves in relation to the emerging global powers. Someone with some knowledge of the subject please put me straight here. Armstrong also never walked on the moon. I am sure you are right(Edit:in the gist, not literally), but I was hoping for a a bit more insight. Why doesn't the government own the federal reserve? Is that a normal situation in most countries? Is the bank of England independently owned?
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.05 01:47:00 - [67] Edited by: Irulan S''Dijana on 05/10/2008 01:47:48 Originally by: dr doooo I am sure you are right(Edit:in the gist, not literally), but I was hoping for a a bit more insight. Why doesn't the government own the federal reserve? Is that a normal situation in most countries? Is the bank of England independently owned? First let me preface this by saying my background is Finance in Australia, so while I understand the mechanics of financial markets around the world, my knowledge if the Fed itself is not as in-depth as it could be. The Fed is a quasi-public entity, but what should be kept in mind is that the Governor and the board of directs are all appointed by the president and confirmed by congress. If at that level people consider them to be biased for big business, then it's basically game over; how else are you going to select the board members? People barely understand all the issues in the federal election right now; try getting them to understand and vote intelligently on things like balancing the value of liquidity in derivatives markets relative to the risk speculative bubbles and it's going to be a huge shitstorm. The close ties the fed has with private banking goes both ways. The fed serves as a way to moderate the economy by setting and changing interest rates. In this role the Fed leads the banks. The fed also serves as a short term savings/lending facility, and as such serves the banks to keep the financial system well greased. I still don't get how it feasible to have some sort of banker conspiracy, some sort of plot to keep the rich rich and the poor poor. Well ok, I admit, we all want to be rich, but there's no systematic goal to keep people down. It's akin to saying the major traders in EVE conspire to keep new people from entering the market; it's simply not true and infeasible. The market is very much like EVE (or should I say EVE is very much like the RL market), in that no quarter is asked, and none given. Anybody who plays (via investing in shares, bonds etc) is considered fair game. Thus a dollar from a mum and dad investor is just as good as a dollar from Warren Buffet. In times like these, the real sharks come in and take bites out of everybody. Everybody. These people are the traders, certain hedge funds etc. The IBs got hit just as hard as the mums and dads. But the banks don't report every trade that went wrong, while the mums and dads are painfully aware of every dollar they lost in the market. The end result is the mum and dad's get wiped out and the IBs collapse. And from a mum and dad point of view, it looks like somebody fleeced them on the market, the banks took their money and then ran, and now the government is bailing out the banks. The first instinct is to naturally blame somebody else, and because most people don't understand how finance works, they don't' know who to blame. So they blame somebody's who's visible: the Fed. The truth is the bankers got greedy and screwed up. No conspiracy, just a massive screw-up. Of course it's a bit more complicated, mostly to do with the way bankers are remunerated, but the point is it wasn't some sort of conspiracy.
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:15:00 - [68] Edited by: Thorliaron on 05/10/2008 03:16:28 Originally by: Valan Originally by: Drakolus If there was a way to invest in instability and Chaos, I would SO be all in right now. There is some companies are making a fortune at the moment. The great thing is because we're a financial business our share price took a hit. Thing is our profits are up due to the instability. So I bought a few shares and I'm in profit. Now the USA has bailed out my profits will be up Monday. I'm looking at over 30% by Friday. People go on about the chain reaction among the economies of the world and in the same breath moan about the bail out helping only the rich. The issue affects everyone. The damage is already done but the result is that there is no confidence. Once that is restored the organisations affected can begin to move on. The bail outs in various countries are required to restore confidence. Without out it the world grinds to a halt. You wont see a share surge for a long time and tbh the bail out won't really solve anything.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:26:00 - [69] Originally by: Valan There is some companies are making a fortune at the moment. The great thing is because we're a financial business our share price took a hit. Thing is our profits are up due to the instability. So I bought a few shares and I'm in profit. Now the USA has bailed out my profits will be up Monday. I'm looking at over 30% by Friday. What do you do? Hedge fund? Prop trading? Really REALLY interested
Captain Hudson Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:29:00 - [70] I have all my shares locked in Man Group, they have gone down quit a lot even though quarterly profits are up Bin Laden Dancing
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:36:00 - [71] Originally by: Captain Hudson I have all my shares locked in Man Group, they have gone down quit a lot even though quarterly profits are up If they're good, buy more. Diversify across time rather then assets. I'm 22, I start work next year. My work life is around 40 years, hence my investment horizon is 40 years. This is a bloody golden age for me to buy. If only I had money...
Seroquel	Posted - 2008.10.05 06:25:00 - [72] Edited by: Seroquel on 05/10/2008 06:26:18 At least our children will get their wooden arrows if the bail out bill is a flop. Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Originally by: Captain Hudson I have all my shares locked in Man Group, they have gone down quit a lot even though quarterly profits are up If they're good, buy more. Diversify across time rather then assets. I'm 22, I start work next year. My work life is around 40 years, hence my investment horizon is 40 years. This is a bloody golden age for me to buy. If only I had money... Get a loan... ker ***** (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Aclyn Seriy Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.10.05 10:39:00 - [73] What I would like to know is if this "bailout" is just that, or is this the beginning of a sweeping reform in the way the financial institutions of America work? Will the US government start playing a more active (hopefully pro-active) role in the way the system is maintained in order to fix some of the damage done over the past 40 years, or are they merely handing over the first $250B and quickly looking the other way? I hope for the sake of the USA and the rest of the world (who like it or not are inextricably intertwined with the US) that this is a reform, and not just a band-aid. These wounds need healing, not covering. Originally by: techzer0 I'm the failboat captain
TCup Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.05 13:56:00 - [74] OMG Don't care who else they bail out, so long as there's enough dosh to keep paying the hamsters...
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.	Posted - 2008.10.05 23:57:00 - [75] Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 05/10/2008 23:59:05 Stock markets tanked after the bill passed. Down to where they were when it failed first time. Check out the futures now. The market has had time to think and realised the doorstop that left the chamber is going to make everything suck. Whatever the intent was, and it no longer matters, what you got was very different. I have a lot of thoughts about all this, but I will keep it short and simple - the banks are still insolvent and equities are a value trap. The violence in forex is stunning. LIBOR has become meaningless. Credit ratings are meaningless. GE is AAA and paid 13% on preferred. The precious little lending going on is on terms that redefine usury. There are rumours commercial paper is frozen. If so, within months goods will be piling up in warehouses with nowhere to go. That $700bn was not spent in the US. It will not help matters in the US. The US bailed out foreign money center banks and SWFs. It is that simple. And as we are seeing this weekend, it was not even enough. Credit creation is almost over. Net, anyway. What little scope remains is insufficient to bridge the chasm of servicing existing debt. Keynesian policy has run its course to its mathematically maximum possible extent. Reciprocal bailout moves are under discussion in a number of countries, but there is little hope of agreement. The choice everywhere is the same: print or default. Edge towards the exit or break into a run. The world is sliding into a depression. What we see today is reminiscent of the attempts to restore faltering confidence in 1929.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.06 04:08:00 - [76] I just remembered; to the hedge fund that didn't want to hire me as a trader because they were moving to computer based algorithmic trading: SUCKS TO BE YOU!!! P.s. Can I still have a job?
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates	Posted - 2008.10.06 05:10:00 - [77] hooray for the thousands of dollars in coffee cans investment \/. and who sais rednecks are stupid
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2008.10.06 06:04:00 - [78] And in the end the many will be indebted to the few, a world of slavery is upon us.
Victor Vision Amarr Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.10.06 06:41:00 - [79] Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Wow...there's a lot of hate for the financial system here. The bailout was a bad choice, but not bailing out would be a terrible choice. I think any reasonable person would agree that a total collapse of western markets is something to be avoided. A crisis is fine to a certain degree, but an uncontrolled collapse is obviously not desireable. So, yes - a stabilizing plan makes sense. BUT a bailout? You see, governmental stabilizing of the economy can be done in various ways. In the US one plan was proposed. A plan to buy bad assets from large companies with taxpayer money, in order to safe these large companies - which in turn is supposed to stabilize the economy. This is a top down approach. The idea being to pure taxpayer money in at the top of the economy, and then hoping the stabilizing effect at the top will then positively effect the middle, and eventually the mainstream. Another approach to stabilizing the markets would have been a bottom up approach. In this scenario the main injection of cash into the markets would be at the bottom, with the idea of the positive effect then going upwards to the middle, and eventually the top. Governments like the Irish government, the German government, and very recently the Austrian government are taking a mixed approach of these two principles atm. (Most likely more governments will follow these examples) The idea in these stabilizing plans is: a) bailout crucial financial institutions (money injection at the top) b) guarantee savings (in case of germany an unlimited guarantee, in case of ireland limited to 50000 pounds - this is a broad potential cash injection, including the bottom) Another point to look at is what happens to those found responsible of mismanagement - which in part led to the current crisis. The Amercian approach seems to be to limit salaries of top executives - or something along those lines. The German approach will very likely be to look at punishment for those responsible in the failing institutions. For the future, Germany plans to change legislation so that those responsible for situations like the current one will not only be subject to legal punishment, but also may have to give up their private fortunes to help pay for the mess they caused. In closing, my main criticism of the American bailout is not that the government is trying to do something to stabilize the economy. The main criticism is that the American bailout is mainly a bailout for the rich and large companies. The common people in America do not seem to get their part of the bargain - but they do have to pay for it through taxes. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.	Posted - 2008.10.06 06:52:00 - [80] Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 06/10/2008 06:54:02 The above is spot on. Saying this was a choice between giving banks hundreds of billions of dollars taken out as an advance against future taxes and everyone sticking fingers in their ears shouting LALALA! and hoping it all goes away would be to confess to a lack of imagination. There were other possibilities. Regulators and legislators refused to explore them. It does not matter though, it is too late now and it was probably left too late anyway.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.06 07:14:00 - [81] Victor = +1 Personally I think the Private banking system in Germany is good: Bankers (at all levels) are personally responsible for the results of their actions for 5 years after they quit the job. Therefore no more 1) quick and dirty deals 2) get bonus 3) leave 4) repeat 5) ??? 6) profit Ok, I arbitrarily included the "???" for meme value.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.06 07:42:00 - [82] Edited by: Valan on 06/10/2008 07:43:35 Originally by: Thorliaron Edited by: Thorliaron on 05/10/2008 03:16:28 Originally by: Valan Originally by: Drakolus If there was a way to invest in instability and Chaos, I would SO be all in right now. There is some companies are making a fortune at the moment. The great thing is because we're a financial business our share price took a hit. Thing is our profits are up due to the instability. So I bought a few shares and I'm in profit. Now the USA has bailed out my profits will be up Monday. I'm looking at over 30% by Friday. People go on about the chain reaction among the economies of the world and in the same breath moan about the bail out helping only the rich. The issue affects everyone. The damage is already done but the result is that there is no confidence. Once that is restored the organisations affected can begin to move on. The bail outs in various countries are required to restore confidence. Without out it the world grinds to a halt. You wont see a share surge for a long time and tbh the bail out won't really solve anything. lol bearing in mind I'm small time I work at a brokers but I'm not a broker but you learn a bit on the side. I bought in at 3.08 last week or so. I sold at 3.60, bought back in at 3.00 this morning and sold at 3.80 10 minutes later. I've now bought back in again at around 3.20. So I'm ú1200 up and still have my original stake which is in profit. Now imagine you have 100s of professional brokers with a millions to spend and you tell me we're having a rough time It's a game I've just got my toe in the water regarding investment and information. I consider myself clueless but you have people commenting as though they're experts that have no idea. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.06 08:52:00 - [83] Hey cool! A scalper! Valan, do you work for yourself or work at a prop shop or something similar? A denizen of trade2win?
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.06 09:00:00 - [84] Edited by: Valan on 06/10/2008 09:00:23 lol nope like I say I'm small time. I know the company I work for is undervalued, the only reason we're taking a hit is because we're lumped in the financial sector. We don't hold assets as we're not a bank. Our only threat is thinning down of clients but with Governments protecting the large banks the threat has subsided. We're currecntly 20% in front on last years profit. We have a new project about to roll out which is going to be ahuge money maker for us and isn't dependent on having lots of clients. I would let you know who I work for but I'm not taking any responsibility for other peoples losses lol. All I'm saying is there is a silver lining and let the Government and banks sort it out and your assets will recover. All this media hype and political spin is actually making it worse. The media and general public isn't qualified to comment you're gonna have to start trusting the banks again. Some of these rescue plans may actually earn money for the Government in the future. There is no way giving average Joe a bundle to help with his mortgage is ever going to see a return. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Victor Vision Amarr Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.10.06 09:49:00 - [85] Edited by: Victor Vision on 06/10/2008 09:52:15 Originally by: Valan It's a game... No Valan, it is not a game. If you made the ú1200 trading stocks, what you did is you bought and sold parts of actual companies - with actual employees, customers etc. You speculate - or as some evil tongues might say: gamble - with actual assetes, which again provide income for actual people. Misspeculation in a broder scale can criple companies, and negatively effect the lives of people. To me, the stockmarkets seem very immature sometimes. The gambling attitude is wide spread as far as I can see. In public opinion, the trade "broker" has dropped a lot in its reputation. What the stock market needs is responsible handling. I am actually not a big friend of regulation, but if the brockers do not understand that this is not a game, and responsible behaviour does not happen, then the freedoms of brockers run risk of being strongly limited in the future - and rightfully so in my opinion. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.06 10:18:00 - [86] It's not gambling it's either information based trading or statistical analysis (although I can see how that can be gambling), usually it's both. The traders get paid to make money so they do that anyway they can within the rules. They're not emotionally involved they can't be or you couldn't make money. Who you should be levelling critiscm at is the people who make the decisions. Pension funds regularly sell their customers assets down the river. But at the end of the day a company exists to make money for its owners. They exploit employees to extort money from customers. As an employee you're a number and unless you can climb the ranks and take advantage you have to sit there and make the best of what you can to make a living. In my experience everyone does things in their own interest regardless of there social level. The gain is either material or emotional very rarely do people do something for nothing and they will rarely do themselves harm. Hence sometimes I make an effort to help someone out as long as I'm not really doing myself a injury. The only thing is some people are at the top of the pile and get a chance to shaft more people. But unfortunately you need them more in this case than they need you. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Victor Vision Amarr Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.10.06 15:58:00 - [87] Edited by: Victor Vision on 06/10/2008 15:59:57 Originally by: Valan Who you should be levelling critiscm at is the people who make the decisions. That is correct. As a small business owner I am in the fortunate position to know the heads of some fairly big companies. And yes, I do talk with them about those things. At the end of the day, especially people with a lot of money realize that there is much more to life. Taking responsibility in a moraly rewarding way can be a lot more rewarding than stacking up masses of money. Originally by: Valan But at the end of the day a company exists to make money for its owners. They exploit employees to extort money from customers. As an employee you're a number and unless you can climb the ranks and take advantage you have to sit there and make the best of what you can to make a living. Of course companies exist to make money. But that is not - or better: should not be - their sole purpose. The underlying idea of modern market economy combined with a democratic voting system is to benefit the people in the system. This tends to be overlooked sometimes. A system with the sole purpose of exploiting people and extorting money from them for the benefit of a few, is not in the interest of society. Neither is a company which operates this way in the interest of society. The more heads of financial, industrial and other institutions understand their moral responsibilities as much as their financial ones, the less regulation of modern economic systems will be neccessary. So in the end, it is very much in the interest of the "haves" to not only care about making money, but also about "doing good" for the rest of society, their customers and their employees - and most important of all - to act responsibly in general. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE HistoryWiki
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.06 16:05:00 - [88] I agree thats the way should be and I must admit even though I work for what could be considered a company at the pinnacle of capitalist excess they do treat employees very well. Not only that we give millions to charity every year. More often than not its the other way around especially in big companies. But at the end of the day the little people are at the mercy of the high flyers the only way to have a voice is the vote which sadly a lot of people don't use. Half of the time the vote ends up getting some in who only looks after themselves anyway. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Master Gotama	Posted - 2008.10.06 16:55:00 - [89] ItÆs time to wake up and smell the Credit Derivatives. Our current administration is responsible for failing to regulate one of the largest markets on the planet ($62 Trillion). Allowing companies to offer what amounts to insurance without regulating the loss reserves to ensure enough pay-out exists to cover these policies (many of which are for subprime mortgages). The resulting bankruptcies will create a domino effect of losses that will far exceed what we are seeing in the sub-prime market alone (remember AIG). The derivatives market is global and as such, the effect of this market going under will be felt around the world. Just look at the EU this weekend, they canÆt agree on a course of action among themselves and as such, they are starting to adopt the ôevery man for themselvesö approach. Good luck to you folks abroad who think you wonÆt have to deal with this. I certainly hope you are right.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.06 17:07:00 - [90] There are so many things that I would like to refute in this thread, but when it comes to economics, people like to throw in their talking points and run away thinking they've won the thread. I will say it again, this is not a failure of this administration, this administration has consistently tried to address this problem. This is a failure of Congress, on both sides of the aisle. What Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac did was EXACTLY what Enron did. Only difference is that F-M did it with implied public backing. When you really get to the nuts and bolts of the opus of this problem, with Affirmative Action lending, you'll find this is a failure of socialism, not a failure of capitalism. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.06 17:39:00 - [91] Originally by: Valan I agree thats the way should be and I must admit even though I work for what could be considered a company at the pinnacle of capitalist excess they do treat employees very well. Not only that we give millions to charity every year. More often than not its the other way around especially in big companies. But at the end of the day the little people are at the mercy of the high flyers the only way to have a voice is the vote which sadly a lot of people don't use. Half of the time the vote ends up getting some in who only looks after themselves anyway. but you lost all your profit today right? seeing as the markets have gone massivly down
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.06 17:42:00 - [92] This is why any balanced portfolio has some inverse ETFs! _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
TCup Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.06 19:21:00 - [93] From the FT today... In Iceland, the government launched a plan to recapitalise its stricken banks, although markets were far from convinced the measures will work. The Icelandic krona has more than halved in value against the euro and the dollar in the past year, leading Antje Praefcke of Commerzbank to warn: ôWe would also not be surprised to see the Icelandic krona lose its function as a medium of paymentö.
Master Gotama	Posted - 2008.10.06 19:33:00 - [94] Originally by: Pwett this administration has consistently tried to address this problem. care to give any concrete examples? Originally by: Pwett What Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac did was EXACTLY what Enron did. so let me get this straight, (fannie + freddie) = enron. enron occured seven years ago and we now find ourselves in the exact same place. you're telling me that the current administration has nothing to do with this? rather, its congress that had rubber stamped his agenda for six of the last eight years? correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't enron about transparency in corporate accounting? who is supposed to enforce these accounting standards? the SEC, OTS, NCUA, etc. are all apart of the executive branch. i find it difficult to believe the Mr. Prez had nothing to do with the current situation we are in.
Ademaro Imre Caldari Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:18:00 - [95] Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 06/10/2008 20:21:44 Originally by: Master Gotama Originally by: Pwett this administration has consistently tried to address this problem. care to give any concrete examples? Here is one... New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae When the OFHEO agency (was supposed to oversight Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac but was never given the authority it requested) reported to congress the problems of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, this is the response of Democrats Regulation of Fannie Mae You will hear the name Franklin Raines in here, it will sound familiar as he was the head of Fannie Mae and cooked the books there, and was on Obama VP search committee. Here's another effort by McCain himself (the issuie that Joe Biden lied about in the debate last week) FEDERAL HOUSING ENTERPRISE REGULATORY REFORM ACT OF 2005 Here is someone that did not help, Obama Sued To Stop Mortgage æRed-LiningÆ. Originally by: Master Gotama Originally by: Pwett What Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac did was EXACTLY what Enron did. so let me get this straight, (fannie + freddie) = enron. enron occured seven years ago and we now find ourselves in the exact same place. you're telling me that the current administration has nothing to do with this? rather, its congress that had rubber stamped his agenda for six of the last eight years? correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't enron about transparency in corporate accounting? who is supposed to enforce these accounting standards? the SEC, OTS, NCUA, etc. are all apart of the executive branch. i find it difficult to believe the Mr. Prez had nothing to do with the current situation we are in. Yes - it is nearly identical to what happened with Enron. The Bush administration had little to do with it. Freddie Mae and Freddie Mac were recreated in the 90's by the Clinton Administration, and as shown above, the Bush administration tried to reform it. But the Bush administration never did have control of congress, despite numbers after 2002 because any majorities were razor thin and it was easy for committees to block legislative efforts if it was a party line vote. And when party lines votes will bloack anything, legislation will not get done, and as you saw in the video - any effort to stop FM/FM would be considered racist since the economy was trucking along really well at the time. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, were being operated by criminals who were cooking the books, and had the full backing of the United States Government, had laws to puish mortgage enties to go below their "red lines," and whose objectives were to push mortgage entities to give high risk loans where FM/FM would then buy the loans, add the loans to their assets and reach their paycheck bonus goals. To get more capital to keep the roller coster moving, FM/FM would then sell their securities under various guises.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:30:00 - [96] bows TY sir, got a bit caught up in the office. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.07 00:13:00 - [97] Originally by: Thorliaron but you lost all your profit today right? seeing as the markets have gone massivly down If he's exercised good self discipline with a sound exit plan his losses will be minimal (a hundred pounds at most). If he's invested in index futures and gone short... Can I have your stuff?
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.07 02:29:00 - [98] Edited by: HankMurphy on 07/10/2008 02:36:20 Originally by: Ademaro stuff retort why must the weak minded always try to turn the argument into a partisan one? yes, as everyone knows the ball started rolling on subprime mortgages under clinton. care to touch on the who started the ball with trickle down economics? the very failed idea that will show this bailout to be equally fail? oh no, i'm sure your right. the republicans have been trying to save us for years and the democrats destroyed the world WAKE UP man. wonder why none of this came to light till after the '04 elections? why no one brought this up between 2000-2004? Because there was a solid R majority in congress w/ a R president (aka: they would have been able to fix things at the cost of the rich to benefit the common taxpayer. they didn't decide to ACT like they wanted to fix shit until they knew they couldn't) every fat cat got fatter on this bubble. EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMN ONE OF EM. they knew the burst would come, and when they did they came to the gov. with a hand out saying 'whoops, i **ed up, can you bail me out?' and this administration, WITH SUPPORT OF BOTH PARTIES LEADERS, was more than happy to try and scare the american public into filling their hands and pockets with cash. its funny. the public didn't even fall for it, not most of them. we knew this bailout was doomed to failure. thats why the house rejected it first time. but, as always, after a couple days the REAL owners of this country and gov. pulled their strings and turned around and passed it anyways (but, right, i forgot. it passed because it was a MUCH BETTER bill 2nd time around ) //retort --------------------------------- the truth: when will ppl wake up and realize the two party system is one of control and that while you and a guy on the other side of the table are BLUE and RED** in the face () yelling and blaming each other, BOTH parties rich and famous have eaten their meals, drank the wine, and gone out the door leaving the 2 of you with the bill. Its this simple: This is a problem that has festered for multiple administrations. Not just this one and the last one. Was Clinton at fault for setting this up? yes. Was it Bush's fault for spiking the ball over the net? oh god yes. Is Obama and McCain full of shit toting this bailout and telling us it's going to make everything ok? ABSOLUTELY YES. Not that it matters, its over. McCain and Obama can sleep well knowing there isn't much the next president can do about this except ride it out and enforce ever stricter regulation. I HATE to be a doomsayer, but any chance of stopping this thing now is futile. The market will have to play itself out and we the taxpayers will be bearing the brunt of it along with the next generation. Recession is here and I'm afraid a depression will be inevitable. (hopefully a short one, and hopefully i'm wrong but i haven't been yet) i get it. i really do finally get it. i understand why the french killed the rich and now i'm just waiting my turn. ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt!
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.07 11:06:00 - [99] Originally by: Thorliaron Originally by: Valan I agree thats the way should be and I must admit even though I work for what could be considered a company at the pinnacle of capitalist excess they do treat employees very well. Not only that we give millions to charity every year. More often than not its the other way around especially in big companies. But at the end of the day the little people are at the mercy of the high flyers the only way to have a voice is the vote which sadly a lot of people don't use. Half of the time the vote ends up getting some in who only looks after themselves anyway. but you lost all your profit today right? seeing as the markets have gone massivly down I'm onlt trading one specific company. Nope surprisingly I thought I would be down but I'm still ú100 up. If it dropped to ú2 my surrent investment would be down but I would be in like Flynn! I would buy a bundle more. I'm going to sit tight now until we hit the end of the financial year and sell then. The secret is out on us and the share price is holding firm despite others going under. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.07 15:53:00 - [100] To your lovely retort - it's not a partisan attack - it's an attack on Government intruding. Partisanship is a byproduct because in this instance it was those who espoused the socialist ideals of providing housing to everyone regardless of whether or not they could afford that caused this problem. What's most important is how this ties to the modern American political spectrum. Let me tell you a little story about ACORN, lets completely ignore their documented voter fraud. In the 90's when the Clinton Administration was working to make mortgages more affordable, that was a noble endeavor. Many banks did take this into account and offered 'special' mortgages to people who didn't fit the profile of the old school 20% down and 25% income repayment position. This wasn't a problem in the 90's because banks were able to leverage this small percentage of mortgages against their good mortgages. Also at this time, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, were also very strict regulators and would only allow a small percentage of their backed mortgages to fall under this classification. This was a huge step because this small percentage was still larger than the 0% of the early 80s. ACORN, under the community organization umbrella, started protesting and bringing law suits up against banks who were not largely invested in the 'sub-prime' mortgage industry. The problem was that they ran up against a brick wall and the banks flat out told them that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would not allow them to invest more of their money in these risky practices. In response to this, ACORN lobbied Congress excessively, widely using the racist card against those who said that those who couldn't afford mortgages shouldn't own them. Unfortunately, those most susceptible to these attacks were the Democrat Congressmen because their primary voting block are low-income and minority Americans. Through the lobbying, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac said they would back a larger number of these bad loans on the pretense that housing prices would go up indefinitely. There were many in Government, both Republican and Democrat that warned about what would happen if housing prices were ever to come down, but by this time key members of the Democrat party were so enmeshed in the politics of these mortgages - with former Clinton Staffers actually acting as CEO up Fannie Mae that they couldn't extricate themselves from the problem. Even as late as July, key Democrat leaders said that even though Fannie Mae might not be a great investment vehicle, that moving forward things should be looking solid. Unfortunately - the second quarter reports which came in a week later were saying differently - and that is when the **** hit the fan. As I said before, this is not a failure of capitalism, it was an experiment and failure of socialist ideals. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.10.07 15:55:00 - [101] So who thinks the market will plunge further today or recoop some of its losses? Any takers? Come on with this roller coaster ride anything is possible. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.07 16:29:00 - [102] Originally by: Pwett As I said before, this is not a failure of capitalism, it was an experiment and failure of socialist ideals. can't say i disagree with any of that. Ironic that we turning to even more drastic socialist solutions to resolve? hey i'm all for selling bonds, but why the hell is the fed going to start issuing loans directly to smaller private businesses now? Answer is, it wasn't failed socialistic practices alone. In fact socialistic practices are very much needed to prop up this country the way we know it (if not, the gap between low/middle class and upper class would be a HELL of a lot larger) however, once you open that bag of socialism, it must then be strictly managed by the government if your going to do it! that seems to be the way they are trying to go now to fix the mess (and i doubt it works. looks like hindsite is nearsighted?) It also shows us the ugly side of unbridled capitalism. We did it half assed, we let the subprime loans loose into the open market w/ no strings attached (hell, we pushed em like we were a ****** dealer) and as we now know... it got way way out of control. It's known that the mortgage screw up alone couldn't cause this! Both the lending practices AND the insane practice of derivatives (gambling on those loans and their attached assets with no actual stake in either ones success besides the bet itself) caused this perfect storm. thats why the very way wall street is run is changing, NOT just how we pass out loans. in fact, that is the lesser of the two evils. i can see the need for socialistic aspects to our economy. i can also understand the need to keep a healthy free market running. but they are like mixing oil and water. it has to be managed. and it wasn't. this was a failed experiment in mixing the WORST of each ideal. so i'd say you have a valid point but are only half right in the above quote ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt!
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.	Posted - 2008.10.07 19:21:00 - [103] Don't make this into a political thing. Excessive leverage, poor underwriting standards, fraud and corrupt regulators are problems that have plagued the last several administrations of virtually every country on the planet. This is just the deflationary reset and abuses that you get at the end of every credit expansion cycle. It transcends all systems.

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