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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7403
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Posted - 2012.04.21 06:47:00 -
[61] - Quote
No.
Hell no.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Alice Saki
Analog Folk SRS.
86
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Posted - 2012.04.21 08:44:00 -
[62] - Quote
No to Grinding! http://tinyurl.com/RifterDeath My Rifter Adventure in Null |
Josef Djugashvilis
82
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Posted - 2012.04.21 10:06:00 -
[63] - Quote
Vito Antonio wrote:Im for active skill training bonus. Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.
Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.
So I buy/sell plex to train more quickly.
Hmm wouldn't that be 'Pay To Win'? You want fries with that? |
Lord Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.04.22 11:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
Dr Caymus wrote:Such a system existed for a very brief time early in the game's history. In-game activities had the effect of modestly accelerating the rate at which certain skills were increased. The feature was removed from the game at least in part because it was being exploited: people used automated means to repeat the various activities that augmented skill growth. Therein lies concern number one. Is it possible to implement a system like this so that it is "bot-proof"?
That's a stupid reason to remove something. By that logic you'd have to remove 90% of the game. Ratting can be botted and so can mining etc. I'm still against the removal just like I was when it originally happened. The chances of CCP changing their minds at this point are pretty much nonexistent though. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7403
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 13:23:00 -
[65] - Quote
Lord Dravius wrote:Dr Caymus wrote:Such a system existed for a very brief time early in the game's history. In-game activities had the effect of modestly accelerating the rate at which certain skills were increased. The feature was removed from the game at least in part because it was being exploited: people used automated means to repeat the various activities that augmented skill growth. Therein lies concern number one. Is it possible to implement a system like this so that it is "bot-proof"?
That's a stupid reason to remove something. By that logic you'd have to remove 90% of the game. Ratting can be botted and so can mining etc. I'm still against the removal just like I was when it originally happened. The chances of CCP changing their minds at this point are pretty much nonexistent though. It was part of the reason for removal, the other reasons you'll find dotted throughout this thread.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Golden Duck
Backwater Redux Tactical Narcotics Team
0
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Posted - 2012.04.25 21:06:00 -
[66] - Quote
There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game.. BUT, paying for increase SP is a very very bad idea, so is increase training time of skills you use (to easy to abuse). The only good solution to "active" skill training that i see is with some kind of missions / daily activity / weekly activity. Example :something that takes like 1h max to do, and you gain xx amount of hours on your current training. How much and what you need to do needs to be balanced by ccp. This can also only apply to players with less than lets say 10 mil SP. after u reach 10 mil SP you cant get any bonus to your skill training. This will give new players better motivation to play the game. and as they play they learn more and more. Bigger chance they stay in the game after they have tried it. Which also give better income for ccp.
For the older players that are against this because they dont have "time" to do these things, "grind" as they call it. Is it fair that veteran players can get more ISK and get same amount of training without even playing the game?? Veteran players can make 1 billion or more every day. how long do you think it will take for a new player to make "good" ISK?? New players need some love to keep them in the game, and give them something to do. Doing missions all day long sucks, and dont get much money from it. so even if they got the skill for certain ships and items they cant always afford it. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
441
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Posted - 2012.04.25 22:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
Golden Duck wrote:There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game..
Why?
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Golden Duck
Backwater Redux Tactical Narcotics Team
0
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Posted - 2012.04.26 05:33:00 -
[68] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Golden Duck wrote:There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game.. Why? Read my post, i explain why...!! |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
441
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Posted - 2012.04.26 06:05:00 -
[69] - Quote
Golden Duck wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Golden Duck wrote:There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game.. Why? Read my post, i explain why...!!
No, you actually don't. You make some allusion to the idea that forcing new players to grind is somehow good for retention, but I sure as hell don't see the logic in that. So again: why exactly does EVE need active skill training? Lay it out, step by step. If you can make a solid case and answer any critiques, I'll cede the point. Until then, well, it's a missing premise to the rest of your argument. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 07:03:00 -
[70] - Quote
Vito Antonio wrote:Im for active skill training bonus. Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.
Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.
Speaking as someone who buys PLEX, I wish I could slap you through the internet. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
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Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
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Posted - 2012.04.26 07:19:00 -
[71] - Quote
Eve doesn't have grinding?
Running missions is grinding.
Ratting in belts/anomolies is grinding.
Mining is grinding.
Eve has a serious amount of grinding already in it. Without it people would be soon flying reapers as the isk runs out. Why are so many people in this topic posting like it doesn't exist in this game? Do they even know the game being discussed? |
Golden Duck
Backwater Redux Tactical Narcotics Team
0
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Posted - 2012.04.26 08:32:00 -
[72] - Quote
Yeah, there are tons of grinding already. But older Veteran players dont see it as grinding since they can do it all so easy. And even IF there was some kind of active skill training implemented that gives u a few hours less skill training time each week by doing ..something.. doesn't force anyone to actually do it. But there should be something that rewards active players..
Veteran players like Zhilia Mann needs to open their eyes just a little bit, and think of the greater good of the game. In ALL other MMO'S new patches comes out, and older players that played since release might think its unfair since they worked hard to get the gear and items they got, because suddenly max level is raised and their current gear isn't worth much at all. But they do have a easier way to get the better gear since they already have some of the best gear.
So implementing a system that might increase some training time in the beginning of this game doesn't really affect older players at all. BUT it helps ALL new players to progress faster, and also will get more players to the game.
Why don't the veteran players come with a good explanation to why there shouldn't be a system that rewards activity and new players?? Because i haven't seen a single good argument from all the veteran players yet.
IF you are traveling around or work a lot and don't have much time to play, is it really fair that u get more ISK, and more skills than new players that play every day for many hours??? Shouldn't punish new players just because you cant play as much, its a stupid reason. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 09:01:00 -
[73] - Quote
Golden Duck wrote:Blanket statement about Veteran players.
As a young pilot (having roughly six months of SP), still no. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
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Posted - 2012.04.26 09:11:00 -
[74] - Quote
Halete wrote:Golden Duck wrote:Blanket statement about Veteran players. As a young pilot (having roughly six months of SP), still no.
Lying about the time spent in eve to justify a short two-worded opinion doesn't give any credibility whatsoever. Giving a rational reason might, but in that respect I think you've already shot your bolt. So: who's your main character? |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 09:17:00 -
[75] - Quote
Elsbeth Taron wrote:Halete wrote:Golden Duck wrote:Blanket statement about Veteran players. As a young pilot (having roughly six months of SP), still no. Lying about the time spent in eve to justify a short two-worded opinion doesn't give any credibility whatsoever. Giving a rational reason might, but in that respect I think you've already shot your bolt. So: who's your main character?
Lying? Okay, that's grand.
I've previous posts in this thread and I also echo what other people are saying (that I do not wish to waste space by reposting), so it's hardly a two word opinion. You could at least put that much effort into looking before posting a response. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
1452
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 10:07:00 -
[76] - Quote
Azemar wrote:
Again i'll reiterate that I don't have a system down to a science. This is simply an idea. I am not vouching (nor have i in this thread) for the ability to max everything in a certain time period. I agree you should never be able to max everything out, maybe in a lifetime i guess?
All I am saying is that there should be a way for me to actively train a skill using isk or time (or both) without meta like buying a character.
I'll give an example: Say someone lives in null sec and wants to begin mining without depending on others (solo). This isn't possible (without extreme inconvenience) unless you have a hulk. That person (assuming no prior skill) is forced to wait a minimum of about a month and a half. They should be able to make that go faster.
You want a way to spend Isk to train skills faster?
YOU GOT IT!
Ladies and Gentlemen, step right up, and BE AMAZED! Right here in your local Jita-Mart, we have exactly what you need!
Learning implants of all attributes and bonuses, ready for implantation through a simple do-it-yourself brain surgery kit. Prices are low, and your speed learning starts as soon as you pay. Get in that carrier faster with Jita-Mart brand Implants! Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 10:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
Orlacc
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:30:00 -
[78] - Quote
Elf game that way --------------------------------> |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
443
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:33:00 -
[79] - Quote
Golden Duck wrote:Veteran players like Zhilia Mann needs to open their eyes just a little bit, and think of the greater good of the game. In ALL other MMO'S new patches comes out, and older players that played since release might think its unfair since they worked hard to get the gear and items they got, because suddenly max level is raised and their current gear isn't worth much at all. But they do have a easier way to get the better gear since they already have some of the best gear.
So implementing a system that might increase some training time in the beginning of this game doesn't really affect older players at all. BUT it helps ALL new players to progress faster, and also will get more players to the game.
Why don't the veteran players come with a good explanation to why there shouldn't be a system that rewards activity and new players?? Because i haven't seen a single good argument from all the veteran players yet.
There's a lot in here: an ad hominem attack, a comparison to other games that in no way parallel EVE, and an attempt to shift the burden of proof. Oh, there's also an unfounded claim that faster new player progression is a way (or maybe the best way, or maybe the only way, it's unclear) to help EVE grow and thrive. It's not a very good showing. But I'm going to rise to the bait anyhow and at least address -- again -- why this is based on unsound premises. And I'll just go ahead and use this as a jumping off point:
Golden Duck wrote:IF you are traveling around or work a lot and don't have much time to play, is it really fair that u get more ISK, and more skills than new players that play every day for many hours??? Shouldn't punish new players just because you cant play as much, its a stupid reason.
As a new player, I had a pretty patchy play schedule. I worked -- a lot. I had to travel -- a lot. It's almost a relief to "only" be in law school now and have to time run my mouth on the forums and, you know, occasionally even play.
And do you know what kept me in the game? The fact that I didn't have to grind to keep up. EVE was the one and only game where I could set a skill and walk away for days at a time -- time after time -- without any major consequence. It didn't really matter that I couldn't play as much as I would have liked because my character was still training (albeit at a **** rate because I didn't exactly understand the consequences of starting attributes). I kept with EVE because training didn't involve grinding.
And does that mean I never had to grind anything? No, I never said that. When low sec mining/ratting is your major source of income, you're often short of ISK. And getting it was a grind. But skill training wasn't.
The problem with introducing a skill grind, even a minimal one, is that it actually eliminates one of EVE's unique selling points. It has absolutely nothing to do with keeping new players down. If new players don't want to spend the time developing their own characters, there are plenty on market to do any job they might want. Grind the ISK (or buy it with PLEX for all I care). But if you do want to train up your own character, you can, and you can do it without feeling obligated to do activity x on a schedule of y per time period z.
That's why it's a bad idea. Ball's in your court. Make an actual argument for me, ok? |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
1452
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:03:00 -
[80] - Quote
Halete wrote:Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado.
And I would respond with the fact that you can, fairly quickly catch up to the old players.
Just not all on one character.
Make a frigate specialist, and you can fly ALL frigates exactly as well as old players in 6 months or so. Make a separate cruiser specialist, and you'll be able to fly each race's cruisers perfectly with maybe 9 months training for the first race, then ~2 for each one after that. Battleships will take a little while, but only around a year for the first race and ~4 months for each after that. A perfect carrier pilot is doable in 18 months, with a perfect super pilot taking less than 2 months longer. A perfect miner or trader is dead easy by comparison at maybe 6 months and 6 weeks, respectively.
Now to me, this all sounds expensive and looks like it requires a fair amount of effort, so I'd say that it fits the bill for an active skill gain schema.
So, you can assemble, like Voltron, a collection of characters that makes you exactly as powerful as the oldest of characters, just not as versatile in some ways, but more versatile in other ways, since maybe you leave one character making money when the rest go off and do cool (read: expensive) things.
But then, specialization always comes up in these "debates" and even if I pointed out that this toon can fly a few ships significantly better than nonamium who recently finished training L5 spaceship command (the category, not the skill), I would likely be ignored by those zealots who have decided that your SP total actually limits what you can do in the game.
NB: All of the times above are 1st order estimates, based on my recollection of the training times of relevant l5 skills. Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
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Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:00:00 -
[81] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote: The problem with introducing a skill grind, even a minimal one, is that it actually eliminates one of EVE's unique selling points.
How does it eliminate the skill queue? I thought the topic was about speeding it up through active playing, not replacing it. Or have I lost track of this discussion? |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
445
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:50:00 -
[82] - Quote
Elsbeth Taron wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote: The problem with introducing a skill grind, even a minimal one, is that it actually eliminates one of EVE's unique selling points.
How does it eliminate the skill queue? I thought the topic was about speeding it up through active playing, not replacing it. Or have I lost track of this discussion?
I never said anything about eliminating the skill queue. How did you manage to get that out of what I wrote? The aforementioned "unique selling point" is that you don't have to grind to keep up with your peers skill-wise. What did you think I was referring to? |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
95
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 05:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Halete wrote:Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado. And I would respond with the fact that you can, fairly quickly catch up to the old players...
Oh, I appreciate that whole-heartedly but obviously the active training supporters don't.
Halete is a frigate specialist. She has Frigate skills that stack up pretty well to characters many years her senior, despite only having around half a year of skill training, so I'm quite content.
In another I want to say five months, she'll able to fly every Frigate and T2 Frigate with no glaring skill holes.
I'm happy with the system. Currently undergoing a... change of look, just for the Vanquish the Devourer event. Say a word and your intestines will get acquainted with my teeth.-á |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
1452
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 08:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
Halete wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Halete wrote:Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado. And I would respond with the fact that you can, fairly quickly catch up to the old players... Oh, I appreciate that whole-heartedly but obviously the active training supporters don't. Halete is a frigate specialist. She has Frigate skills that stack up pretty well to characters many years her senior, despite only having around half a year of skill training, so I'm quite content. In another I want to say five months, she'll able to fly every Frigate and T2 Frigate with no glaring skill holes. I'm happy with the system.
And I got that. I was trying to respond to your hypothetical active training zealot, not saying you were one.
But it is nice to know that my estimates (at least for the frigates) were within an order of magnitude of reality, depending on how focused your training on that toon is. Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
95
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 10:28:00 -
[85] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: But it is nice to know that my estimates (at least for the frigates) were within an order of magnitude of reality, depending on how focused your training on that toon is.
Aye! Sorry, I thought that was what you were doing, but I wanted to address the possibility that I was wrong.
Halete's training is focused mostly with about I want to say maybe 100,000> of skills in odd places.
That said, my implants aren't optimized, neither are my neural specs.
Currently undergoing a... change of look, just for the Vanquish the Devourer event. Say a word and your intestines will get acquainted with my teeth.-á |
Xuixien
Stoic Assembly Lines Trade Federation Alliance
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 21:11:00 -
[86] - Quote
A thousand times no. The day I have to log in constantly to "train my skills" in order to keep up is the day my sub does not get renewned. Rabble Rabble!! |
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.04.28 06:06:00 -
[87] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Elsbeth Taron wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote: The problem with introducing a skill grind, even a minimal one, is that it actually eliminates one of EVE's unique selling points.
How does it eliminate the skill queue? I thought the topic was about speeding it up through active playing, not replacing it. Or have I lost track of this discussion? I never said anything about eliminating the skill queue. How did you manage to get that out of what I wrote? The aforementioned "unique selling point" is that you don't have to grind to keep up with your peers skill-wise. What did you think I was referring to? You didn't make clear to what you were referring. Now you have. |
Mark Munoz
5 Star Research University of Thoth
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 06:33:00 -
[88] - Quote
I have just started playing about two months ago now and I really dig the system. Granted there are times that I get frustrated and wish I could just drop $30 bucks and buy the crap I want and move one but then where's the fun? I suffer from always wanting to max things out and "beat" a game too but hey I attribute that to my playing games in an era where that was the point. You beat a game and moved on to the next one. There is something that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside when all the boxes are checked off. :)
That said I appreciate the approach of this game. I instead of thinking of it as a game, I attribute it more to real life. Just like real life I will NEVER know EVERYTHING. I will however get pretty specialized in a few areas. Just like in real life you need help directly or indirectly to get through life, you need the same support in this game. But just like in real life there are always things you wish you could do, luckily with this game you have alts.
Now I will say this because the game takes so long to really get doing effectively what you want to do I found myself just checking in long enough to change out skills and maybe running a few missions here and there. Now that I am 2 months old and have a fairly strong skill set I find myself playing more. I attribute most of that though to just the fear of dying and having to pay for ships. Just like in real life I don't take many risks with my in game character and like to play the safer side of things. That said I am really tempted to start an alt and have the personality be completely unlike my real life one. |
Hans Momaki
State War Academy Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2012.04.30 20:23:00 -
[89] - Quote
It's the same bullshit every freakin time someone mentions a " Active SP - Gain" on forums.
All this yada yada ppl arguing against for no reasonable reason at all besides that this would take their candy away.
A player with more SP is more powerful, just because he offers more versatility (which is an important factor),. There is no catch up mechanism. Period
The " Grindfest " Argument is based on the same. Older ppl would have to grind because they would risk losing their power (versatility) if they refuse to grind SP.
SO PLEASE CCP, DON'T TAKE MA CANDY AWAY!!!!!!!!!
Nuff said |
Tarrick Merdev
Mernaya Holdings
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 21:17:00 -
[90] - Quote
Hans Momaki wrote:It's the same bullshit every freakin time someone mentions a " Active SP - Gain" on forums.
All this yada yada ppl arguing against for no reasonable reason at all besides that this would take their candy away.
A player with more SP is more powerful, just because he offers more versatility (which is an important factor),. There is no catch up mechanism. Period
The " Grindfest " Argument is based on the same. Older ppl would have to grind because they would risk losing their power (versatility) if they refuse to grind SP.
SO PLEASE CCP, DON'T TAKE MA CANDY AWAY!!!!!!!!!
Nuff said
I only have 9 million SP and I don't want to see this added either. What do you have to say to that? I enjoy being able to progress at the normal rate without having to logon every day to run daily quests. I play when I want to play and I do other things when I don't want to play and I can always come back and enjoy the benefits of having trained over that time. No, I wouldn't actually be forced to logon under the system that is proposed, but I would feel compelled to do so in order to progress.
I enjoy and prefer that EVE is much more laid-back and I don't feel compelled to do anything that I don't want to do. |
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