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TGIF	Posted - 2004.06.22 08:39:00 - [1] After last patch using a shield booster became an invalid module to tank, this while the dev's have made the armor boosting and tanking a very valid tactic which was the intention as i seem to believe. People in pvp corporation are allready looking into ways to armor tank on battleships who's main quality is shields. So to keep it short: Everyone used to use shield tanking, now everyone is going for armor tanking. This while i seem to get the idea that the dev's wanted balanced use of both modules, and to use the module that fit your type of ship i must say that this attempt has failed in the worst possible way. While armor tanking can be done without problems on an apoc and has no penalties, an scorpion needs to use shield booster amp every 2 cap relays* to neutralise the penalty they receive from the cap boosters. This while cap is life and there is no little choice but fitting cap rechargers, you have to use another module while armor tanking does not require such module. My suggestion therefor is: 1: Return to the minmatar and caldari what is taken from them, give them a ship racial bonus of removing any penalties that come related with the cap rechargers/boosters. 2: If option 1 will not be considered, add race bonus each level of ship skill to reduce these penalties. Or give them a shield boost bonus each level. Further explanation: The minmatar and the caldari lack both the ammount of powergrid/cpu to armor tank and the ammount of basic cap recharge to keep their shields up during a battle with shield boosters, this while i am quite capable of using 2 large armor repairers forever on an apoc without running out of cap ever. By giving back the caldari and tempest main defence point i believe some balance is restored since last patch. I am also interested to hear opinions from CALDARI AND MINMATAR USERS regarding this issue since they are aware of the limits or advantages. - - - Absinthe Fueled
Jarjar	Posted - 2004.06.22 08:50:00 - [2] I didn't even bother to read half this post, I saw something about caldari can't shield tank then I stopped reading. You DO know how damn well a scorp/raven/tempest can shield tank right now, right?
TGIF	Posted - 2004.06.22 08:50:00 - [3] *shield booster amp supposed to give 30% shield boost, however only gives enough % to neutralise 2 cap rechargers penalty. - - - Absinthe Fueled
TGIF	Posted - 2004.06.22 08:52:00 - [4] Originally by: Jarjar I didn't even bother to read half this post, I saw something about caldari can't shield tank then I stopped reading. You DO know how damn well a scorp/raven/tempest can shield tank right now, right? Then show me the light if you know it so well, what happens when you run out of shields? Yes you need to shield boost, which requires cap and cap is generated by cap relays who penalized your shield booster making your Large CL-5 a medium CL-5 boosting value. - - - Absinthe Fueled
ActiveX	Posted - 2004.06.22 08:58:00 - [5] Could try using two boosters? Last I heard it takes two repairers for any serious armor tank... ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000
Rhunako	Posted - 2004.06.22 09:07:00 - [6] use power daignostics not cap relays. put enough on and see what they do for your cap/shields and youll forget you ever used cap relays. deffinately put some med slot cap rechargers on too. you dont want to any EW crap on your Tempest anyway do you?
Jernau Gurgeh	Posted - 2004.06.22 09:09:00 - [7] Edited by: Jernau Gurgeh on 22/06/2004 09:11:41 The last time I looked, Caldari ships had more mid slots than any other race. Surely it's not that difficult to use a few mid slot cap rechargers or boosters on them? Even Minmatar ships aren't bad off when it comes to mid slots. There's nothing stopping you putting on a recharger or booster There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
Rob Mattacks	Posted - 2004.06.22 09:35:00 - [8] The tempest struggles badly for grid to armor tank and struggles badly for cpu to shield tank when using long range set ups imo. Having to use powerdiags takes up much more cpu than cap relays and for a ship that is supposed to shield tank I have found it very difficult to fit a shield boost amplifier without running out of cpu or sacrificing in other areas. The cruise launchers also take up more cpu than heavies so fitting them aswell is very difficult as this cpu was not compensated. Also using a tracking comp, which can be essential, takes up one of it's midslots.
Cirle	Posted - 2004.06.22 11:19:00 - [9] You can always throw shield recharge rate into the melting pot as well, for example for shield based factions drop all the recharge times to the same as the capacitor recharge time initially, possibly increasing the cap recharge rate slightly, and see what happens... ;) (apart from all the 'oh no you nerfed my cap' screams) Cirle
Shadowthrone	Posted - 2004.06.22 11:22:00 - [10] TOP TIP for sheild boosting....DONT fit cap power relays :) Celes Kill Board "Show them no mercy, for you will receive none"

TGIF	Posted - 2004.06.22 12:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Cirle You can always throw shield recharge rate into the melting pot as well, for example for shield based factions drop all the recharge times to the same as the capacitor recharge time initially, possibly increasing the cap recharge rate slightly, and see what happens... ;) (apart from all the 'oh no you nerfed my cap' screams) Cirle You don't seem a very active pvp'er, else you would have known that in EVE cap means life. Also if you use 1 shield booster with all cap relays on a caldari ship (bs) or minmatar you cannot keep that running forever, a large armor repairer can on apoc hell i even got 2 running forever... So basicly with a lower recharge rate your cap drains faster and thus you die faster. Also Tempest and Typhoon (but not sure about typhoon) have not enough cpu for a pure pds setup and thus your needing to use cap rechargers who give you a penalty. - - - Absinthe Fueled
Pascal DuVont	Posted - 2004.06.22 14:03:00 - [12] I just think cap power relays should be removed from the game. Give me 1 good reason they shouldnt.
KingsGambit	Posted - 2004.06.22 14:37:00 - [13] Originally by: Pascal DuVont I just think cap power relays should be removed from the game. Give me 1 good reason they shouldnt. You have a low slot left you have no idea what to do with, all you have left in your hangar is a shield flux you picked up somewhere, a basic nanofiber that was there when you moved in and a Cap Relay... ------------- BYOC Crow Interceptor Deals
illuminati	Posted - 2004.06.22 16:25:00 - [14] Originally by: KingsGambit You have a low slot left you have no idea what to do with, all you have left in your hangar is a shield flux you picked up somewhere, a basic nanofiber that was there when you moved in and a Cap Relay... It's true damnit!
Xtro 2	Posted - 2004.06.22 16:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Rhunako use power daignostics not cap relays. put enough on and see what they do for your cap/shields and youll forget you ever used cap relays. deffinately put some med slot cap rechargers on too. you dont want to any EW crap on your Tempest anyway do you? A fantastic suggestion, its one i always use personally, however currently you'll get owned fast, pdu's also fry your shield boosters stats, boosting for less than normal, after the "patch" i find i have enormous amounts of cap remaining, but the shield booster isnt boosting for its normal full amounts, with me ending up in hull very fast, with capacitor to burn but a knackered boost rate/amount. Yer great, you can have loadsa shields on a raven/scorp, but if you cant boost the shields back fast enough its a useless downhill spiraling tank tbh. __________________________________________ Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.06.22 16:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Xtro 2 Originally by: Rhunako use power daignostics not cap relays. put enough on and see what they do for your cap/shields and youll forget you ever used cap relays. deffinately put some med slot cap rechargers on too. you dont want to any EW crap on your Tempest anyway do you? A fantastic suggestion, its one i always use personally, however currently you'll get owned fast, pdu's also fry your shield boosters stats, boosting for less than normal, after the "patch" i find i have enormous amounts of cap remaining, but the shield booster isnt boosting for its normal full amounts, with me ending up in hull very fast, with capacitor to burn but a knackered boost rate/amount. Yer great, you can have loadsa shields on a raven/scorp, but if you cant boost the shields back fast enough its a useless downhill spiraling tank tbh. PDU's and shield boosters aren't best friends anymore, it seems. They are bugged LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.06.22 18:02:00 - [17] From the news: Quote: Update: Client patch has been delayed. We're testing additional fixes that we want to deploy before next weekend. The patch includes standing limit increased, deletion of standing if at limit, fix for session change bug with gangs and generally more robust session change code and fixes a mismatch in the way agents and info window/agent lists interpreted skills that modify standings, various power manager modules such as Power Diagnostic were affecting the shield boost bonus of Shield Boost Amplifiers and the penality of Capacitor Power Relays, mass of Amarr frigates has been corrected, deep space frigate NPC's have had their damage type immunities removed, Medium Armor Repairer II has been decreased in CPU need from 50 to 25 and Large Armor Repairer II has been decreased from 90 to 50. We are still auditing turrets, their tracking and falloff especially. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
TGIF	Posted - 2004.06.22 18:23:00 - [18] PDU = 7.5% cap recharge Cap relay = 20% you need almost 3 PDU's for 1 Cap relay cap effect. shield recharge rate doesnt mather, it doesnt help you in pvp since it doesnt recharge fast enough. Like i said: Cap is life, not only for your shield booster but also for other modules like guns etc. Shield boosting, only 1 booster, drains your cap like a... erhm.. fast. Not to mention guns, missle launchers, hardeners, etc etc. - - - Absinthe Fueled
Rob Mattacks	Posted - 2004.06.22 18:28:00 - [19] Edited by: Rob Mattacks on 22/06/2004 18:35:34 Originally by: TGIF PDU = 7.5% cap recharge Cap relay = 20% you need almost 3 PDU's for 1 Cap relay cap effect. shield recharge rate doesnt mather, it doesnt help you in pvp since it doesnt recharge fast enough. Like i said: Cap is life, not only for your shield booster but also for other modules like guns etc. Shield boosting, only 1 booster, drains your cap like a... erhm.. fast. Not to mention guns, missle launchers, hardeners, etc etc. Pdu's give 7.5% cap recharge + 4% capacitor = 11.5 % so 2 pdu's (23%) are better than 1 cap relay/recharger...
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.06.22 18:42:00 - [20] Edited by: Gariuys on 22/06/2004 18:43:51 Originally by: Rob Mattacks Edited by: Rob Mattacks on 22/06/2004 18:35:34 Originally by: TGIF PDU = 7.5% cap recharge Cap relay = 20% you need almost 3 PDU's for 1 Cap relay cap effect. shield recharge rate doesnt mather, it doesnt help you in pvp since it doesnt recharge fast enough. Like i said: Cap is life, not only for your shield booster but also for other modules like guns etc. Shield boosting, only 1 booster, drains your cap like a... erhm.. fast. Not to mention guns, missle launchers, hardeners, etc etc. Pdu's give 7.5% cap recharge + 4% capacitor = 11.5 % so 2 pdu's (23%) are better than 1 cap relay/recharger... And that's ignoring the fact that having more cap to start with is quite a good thing as well. And it's ignoring the fact that PDU max shield boost is quite helpfull, the shield recharge bonus isn't to hot, but it's enough to be considered something good and it does stop some damage. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool

digitalwanderer	Posted - 2004.06.22 18:47:00 - [21] Funny,i seem to have 460 shield recharge rate every 4.25 sec on my XL clarity booster,which is it¦s base value despite the fact that my setup uses 3 power cap relays... All i had to do to offset the penalty was add 1 shield amp in the mids,so while i¦m not as good a shield tanker as i used to be,saying that it isn¦t possible to shield tank anymore is a bit of an overstatement,even more so if you¦re flying a BS with 5~6 midslots and plenty of cpu reserves...
JoCool	Posted - 2004.06.22 21:18:00 - [22] Yeah most people are just overreacting and cry like little kids. I'd say you **in adapt or **in die. Why do the retards try to tank armor on Ravens or Tempests? One Shield Amplifier equals 3 Cap Relays (whose 'nerf' seems to have a stacking penalty too). You simply aren't supposed to fly around with 2 Shield Amplifiers boosting 680 hitpoints using 400 energy per cycle, that's freaking insane and was never intended. So speaks a Raven pilot.
Xtro 2	Posted - 2004.06.22 21:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Rob Mattacks Edited by: Rob Mattacks on 22/06/2004 18:35:34 Originally by: TGIF PDU = 7.5% cap recharge Cap relay = 20% you need almost 3 PDU's for 1 Cap relay cap effect. shield recharge rate doesnt mather, it doesnt help you in pvp since it doesnt recharge fast enough. Like i said: Cap is life, not only for your shield booster but also for other modules like guns etc. Shield boosting, only 1 booster, drains your cap like a... erhm.. fast. Not to mention guns, missle launchers, hardeners, etc etc. Pdu's give 7.5% cap recharge + 4% capacitor = 11.5 % so 2 pdu's (23%) are better than 1 cap relay/recharger... Perhaps, but those two pdu's are using 2 whole lowslots for that, they may be handy but they use a slot you could be using for something else. they arent uber by any means, just handy. __________________________________________ Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights.
Rob Mattacks	Posted - 2004.06.22 21:42:00 - [24] Originally by: Xtro 2 Originally by: Rob Mattacks Edited by: Rob Mattacks on 22/06/2004 18:35:34 Originally by: TGIF PDU = 7.5% cap recharge Cap relay = 20% you need almost 3 PDU's for 1 Cap relay cap effect. shield recharge rate doesnt mather, it doesnt help you in pvp since it doesnt recharge fast enough. Like i said: Cap is life, not only for your shield booster but also for other modules like guns etc. Shield boosting, only 1 booster, drains your cap like a... erhm.. fast. Not to mention guns, missle launchers, hardeners, etc etc. Pdu's give 7.5% cap recharge + 4% capacitor = 11.5 % so 2 pdu's (23%) are better than 1 cap relay/recharger... Perhaps, but those two pdu's are using 2 whole lowslots for that, they may be handy but they use a slot you could be using for something else. they arent uber by any means, just handy. Ye i meant that 2 pdu's give a better recharge than 1 cap relay. Not saying that pdu's are better than the old cap relays cos like you say they take up more slots to get a simular cap recharge plus a lot more cpu.
ResOz	Posted - 2004.06.22 22:43:00 - [25] Originally by: JoCool Yeah most people are just overreacting and cry like little kids. I'd say you **in adapt or **in die. Why do the retards try to tank armor on Ravens or Tempests? One Shield Amplifier equals 3 Cap Relays (whose 'nerf' seems to have a stacking penalty too). You simply aren't supposed to fly around with 2 Shield Amplifiers boosting 680 hitpoints using 400 energy per cycle, that's freaking insane and was never intended. So speaks a Raven pilot. you ask why people have begun to armor tank ravens and tempests because its easier to just fill your mid slots with cap rechargers slap in a armor repairer or 2 + some harnders and away you go. In the view of balancing i think cap rechargers(mid slot) should affect the armor reapirers the same way relays affect shield boosters.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.06.22 23:02:00 - [26] Same penaltey for cap rechargers on armor tanking? That wouldn't work mate, there's no medium-slot Pdu. About why people fit armor tanking stuff on Ravens and Tempest, I can just shake my head. You wouldn't be able to mount more than one Large Armor Repairer on a Raven simply because you'll lack Powergrid using Siege Launchers, it would just work with Cruise Launchers and one low end Large Turret (~1875ish grid left for it) or two Medium turrets. You'll sacrifice way too much imo and have an awful offense this way. With Tempests, it's balanced as it should be imo, you'd have to use Autocannons, probably combined with Cruise/Siege Launchers. That way you can still fit a Disruptor and an MWD in your medium slots, making the Tempest a good close-range attacker. I consider it some kind of hybrid, it can do almost everything depending on fitting. I would shield-tank it using howitzers though.
DJTheBaron	Posted - 2004.06.22 23:36:00 - [27] Edited by: DJTheBaron on 22/06/2004 23:43:00 theres one more thing, frigates in pvp never use sheild chargers, so using cap relays int eh past was for us a decent penalty as we depended on natural recharge and got it penalised now frigates have no penalty for cap relays because they dont sheild boost only soloution i can think of are some race or ship class specific modules, caldfari for example, having better sheilds than their rivals, but also sacrificing 1/4 by use of mwd may have better sheold modules, wherase armour tanking ships which the 25% sheil dbonus do nto affect as much perhaps does something else the onyl way to "balance" shop modules and setups would be to either have race specific monus/handicap to certian standard modules or for ship class or ship race modules ot be released, it seems to make sence given each race's ships have alternating strengths and weaknesses depending on their designed role and designed racial enemy if for example caldari got either a ship/module bonus to sheild modules, or their mwd's removed less total sheild which sheild tankers rely upon then they will usualyl sheild tank, and even give them a slight handicap towards armour tanking for the armour tankers, have mwd's for example penalise their armour tankign ability so that their sheild handicap doesnt seem to meaningless giving race bonus's or handicaps to modules or even skills would be the only way to balance current fitting and setup problems other than totally reworking ship grids cpu pr building race/class specific or built in ship modules for those who say modules already are divided by class, sheild hardners or ew for example do the same and have the same requirements for a big ship as a smal ship __________________________________________________ Scum, your all scum.
Nebuli	Posted - 2004.06.23 01:42:00 - [28] IMO they should just put it back the way it was before and be done with it, I can see it taking a further year of "balancing" just to offset the problems caused by cpr's, its insane. Learn to adapt they say, I am I say, why do you think my Megathron has mining lazers on it now?
Pascal DuVont	Posted - 2004.06.23 02:24:00 - [29] MAYBE YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE UBER CAP RELAY OF DOOM FOR VERY LITTLE CPU/SLOT INVESTMENT. The way they are atm (only cheating shield tanks) is really lame and completely biased against them.. Again. I've yet to see a good reason why they should be in the game, but plenty why they shouldnt.
Blazyon	Posted - 2004.06.23 02:32:00 - [30] <---doesn't udnerstand why CCP didn't just lower cap relay's affects from 20% to 15%.. but oh well :) I look forward to this "stacking penalty" that was rumoured to. in any case, you can still shield tank. Pain is an object of relativity.



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