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Removing Learning Skills

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Simmith Royal Geographic Society Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2008.10.05 11:48:00 - [1] Normally a new character spends a long time in training for those extra skillpoints in Learning. From what I understand now CCP doesnt like it themselves so I am suggesting alternative methods for getting rid of these skills. Say you create a new character, it works the way it does now, but after trial is over, every day (24 hour period) 2 new points are rewarded that can be placed on attributes. At the same time the maximum number of points on attributes is raised 1 point each. This continues for 7 days, after those 7 days, 2 points are added on a bi-weekly basis (14 days between), similarly the maximum is raised. The maximum should be adjusted so that ridiculous attributes cant be reached as compared to now. In any case this continues until a maximum of 50 points have been awarded. In my example this would take 37 weeks (around 9 months), this is much slower than the current training but it doesnt conflict with training other skills. but someone better at math can figure it all out. How to compensate older characters? Simple, just give them attribute points according to their birthdays and remove the old learning skills. Characters older than 9 months just get all at once and can spend them immediately. Chars younger than 9 months get points according to their age. Brand new chars just get put on the beginning of the schedule. LP Store Database \| ME Evaluator
Clansworth Burning Sky Labs	Posted - 2008.10.05 12:19:00 - [2] I actually like most of this. It would result in much wiser decisions on attributes, as players could play the game for a while before being committed to certain attributes. I don't like it exactly as written, as it appears you want to bring the veterans down to base+0, and let them basically recreate what they've got. This I don't really like. Instead, it should automatically apply the bonus points relative to the learning skills they have, and THEN let them allocate the points that would be for any skills they didn't train up yet. New Prospector Class
Yamato Gasaraki Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.05 13:41:00 - [3] Edited by: Yamato Gasaraki on 05/10/2008 13:43:42 I realy like it, but the removed SP should be given back through an "injection" to active Skills. New Characters should not get any Attributes (besides Faction and Bloodline based) at all on Creation, since Freshmen usualy don't know Dirt about the Game (general Problem: Create a Char to learn the Game first and receive some unique, not recreatable Opportunitys).
Fragito Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.05 14:56:00 - [4] A good idea in all. I simply do not agree with the last paragraph. Quote: Characters older than 9 months just get all at once and can spend them immediately. In my opinion, this could be 4 months of instant training, that is not fair in my opinion. It could be 4 million skill points instantly awarded. I think they should start at where they were and follow the same schedule as the younger players do, except at a slightly faster pace, say 50% faster. I just do not think you should give it away.
Freezehunter Gallente O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.05 15:18:00 - [5] /signed I like the first 2 ideas, except the "nerf the old players" part :)
Nikita Alterana Gallente The Antikythera Mechanism	Posted - 2008.10.05 16:00:00 - [6] I have pretty much the same two concerns as the first 2 posters: SP given already into learning, and allowing older characters to completely respec, however, overall, its a very good concept and I definitely support it. __________________________________________________
Simmith Royal Geographic Society Safe And Fun Environment	Posted - 2008.10.05 16:34:00 - [7] What I was thinking of in regards to removing learning skills on old players was not to give any SP back whatsoever, simply remove the skills, traceless erasure. The only "reward" for being older than 9 months is the ability to place the 50 attribute points all at once, with a maximum of +12 or +14 to any one stat (+12 sounds sanest). The training time spent on learning skills is just completely lost without any compensation. LP Store Database \| ME Evaluator
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.10.05 16:48:00 - [8] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 05/10/2008 16:51:24 What I have suggested number of times over the years, as many others as well: Give ALL characters in EVE a +10 Point Bonus to their basic (starting) points. (This will account for 5 Points for regular skills and 5 points for advanced skills) Remove ALL learning skills from game. Give all those who have trained the learning skills 50% of the points back, as one time deal, to distribute however they want. Learning skills were a mistake, CCP themselves admitted that as well, so they should do a drastic thing and get rid of them. Of course, short term it will give a boost to all the people who have trained all the learning skills to L5, with the 50% SP allocation - but the whining will die down soon enough and people will be able to actually start playing the game straight away rather than spend 2 months training learning skills to maximize the SP output. Some ask why only 50% of Learning Skills SP back? 1) Because 10 Points will already be given to us all - thus negating the SP trained. 2) We would not need to receive any compensation for the 2.5 Mill SP+ trained in learning since the end result would be identical to what we already have. 3) 50% would be a consolation deal for the veterans so they do not feel so bad about "loosing" 2 months of training when they first started. Its a middle ground deal that should generally leave the noobs dissatisfied for a short period that the vets are getting 1 Mill/1.5 Mill SP for free, and it will leave vets dissatisfied that they are not getting their full 100% SP. Thus making a perfect compromise - since good compromises never make anyone completely happy.
Nikita Alterana Gallente The Antikythera Mechanism	Posted - 2008.10.05 17:50:00 - [9] Originally by: Jinx Barker Edited by: Jinx Barker on 05/10/2008 16:51:24 What I have suggested number of times over the years, as many others as well: Give ALL characters in EVE a +10 Point Bonus to their basic (starting) points. (This will account for 5 Points for regular skills and 5 points for advanced skills) Remove ALL learning skills from game. Give all those who have trained the learning skills 50% of the points back, as one time deal, to distribute however they want. Learning skills were a mistake, CCP themselves admitted that as well, so they should do a drastic thing and get rid of them. Of course, short term it will give a boost to all the people who have trained all the learning skills to L5, with the 50% SP allocation - but the whining will die down soon enough and people will be able to actually start playing the game straight away rather than spend 2 months training learning skills to maximize the SP output. Some ask why only 50% of Learning Skills SP back? 1) Because 10 Points will already be given to us all - thus negating the SP trained. 2) We would not need to receive any compensation for the 2.5 Mill SP+ trained in learning since the end result would be identical to what we already have. 3) 50% would be a consolation deal for the veterans so they do not feel so bad about "loosing" 2 months of training when they first started. Its a middle ground deal that should generally leave the noobs dissatisfied for a short period that the vets are getting 1 Mill/1.5 Mill SP for free, and it will leave vets dissatisfied that they are not getting their full 100% SP. Thus making a perfect compromise - since good compromises never make anyone completely happy. Jinx wins __________________________________________________
ATARI BABY Lords Of Guile	Posted - 2008.10.06 02:53:00 - [10] Edited by: ATARI BABY on 06/10/2008 02:53:56 linkage dejavu
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.10.06 02:57:00 - [11] Perhaps we shold designate this thread as the "new" remove learning skills thing? Anyway, I figured I would repost here, in hopes of people continuing to argue here... Originally by: Nnamuachs ... its a fair balance to not demand the additional SP that should have been trained and to at least get back what's already there. This nuance of my plan can be played with, worked with, examined, voted, dissected and reviewed. Because it is just a nuance, really. The main idea is to start a serious discussion where everyone can participate regarding the removal of the learning skills once and for all. After many years in game, I have come to realize, and agree with some at CCP, that the whole Learning Skills shtick was a mistake, and with the current skill-set available it is nothing but a drag on the new population of EVE players. Whatever the final outcome maybe - we have to face the reality that Learning Skills have got to go, one way or another. And we also have to face reality that no one will be pleased 100% with the outcome. All I am suggesting is that the "vets" are more capable, and prepared, to deal with something like a 50% of SP loss - should the skills be removed, than, for example, newer players. As such, we, the veterans of the game ought to make a small sacrifice for the greater good of the game, and if that would mean, to appease the noobs, to take a hit of 50% from re-allocated SP, then so be it.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.06 10:09:00 - [12] Having just signed up like the guppy I am for the Power of 2, I'm with Jinx on this. New character! Oh wait, a month or two of learning skills... joy. I'd equally agree that the nuance of how to compensate players with already-trained skills is a nuance. The more important principle is that the entire premise of learning skills is broken and should be fixed. Whilst I can vaguely see the point that says 'yes but you don't need to train them, it's a choice' I'm still waiting for a player to say that that can prove they haven't trained them... ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.10.06 15:40:00 - [13] i would propose a small alteration. base to V you get 50% back. advanced to 4 you get 75% back. advanced to 5 you get 90% back. something like that as taking a 50% hit on 5m sp for getting everything to V is a bit much compared to a 50% hit on 1m sp for the basics to V. you could also break it down so that nobody ever lost more than 500ksp which seems like a more acceptable loss imo. the straight 50% loss seemed more like a punishment for long term planners.
Fragito Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:20:00 - [14] I think that the learning skills are fine the way they are. Allows more specialization, unless you all want to be the same?
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:21:00 - [15] I like this, but 50 points is way way way way way too much. Should be around 10-15 points, in keeping with the amount you get from learning skills (in addition to base stats, implants etc). This should be coupled with a moratorium on new skills outside of the spec skills themselves, skill training is too much of a grind and basically guarantees a character of age N will never, ever be as good as a character of age N+1. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Dr Cedric Caldari Orbital Industry and Research.	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:04:00 - [16] How about a change that makes training the learning skills really worth it. Instead of boosts to attributes, give boosts to other skill trees. If i want to be a Hybrid weapon specialist, let me learn a learning skill that gives me 10% faster training time for hybrid weapons, or missles, or engineering, or mechanic or whatever. And the easiest answer is to give everyone a +9 to their attributes and to those few that have trained the Adv. skills to 5, give them a mil sp (or however many sp's it is to go from 4 to 5) to allocate wherever they please. Just an idea : ) Dr Cedric CEO Orbital Industry and Research -OIR-
Fragito Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.06 23:07:00 - [17] I like your idea Cedric.
Opertone Caldari SIEGE. United Legion	Posted - 2008.10.06 23:14:00 - [18] this idea is awful can we instead get 4 battleships every month, every player in EVE? and 1 carrier every 6 months? i just hate how old players have huge fleet battles, and i need a titan every year given to me. CCP realize that carriers are a fail, so we need to give them free
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.10.07 00:44:00 - [19] Originally by: Opertone this idea is awful can we instead get 4 battleships every month, every player in EVE? and 1 carrier every 6 months? i just hate how old players have huge fleet battles, and i need a titan every year given to me. CCP realize that carriers are a fail, so we need to give them free Come on! Stop spewing rubbish! At least come here and propose something different. I mean whom do you see here that are asking something for nothing? Seriously? Learning Skills system was Ok when we were talking about the "hard-core" players. You and I, and hundred thousend other players have spent months training it. But, you also have to realize that it does suck big time. If only I had 1 Mill ISK for every time I uttered these words: "ugh, I am training Learning Skills to L5...." when I was a noob. Not everyone will stick with the game if they know that they are not utilized 100% for the first couple of months. If one wants to stay with EVE and utilize the SP system to its maximum potential one must spend 2 Months training learning skills first. Frankly, I am ready to give up a percentage of my Learning Skills SP if I am compensated with the proper number of Attribute Points - since it is adequately represents general advancement. Because I would know that in the long run we will have a better player retention, yea, I know that I have spent a long time w/o any implants whatsoever, yes I know that I spend a longest time with the +3 set, and then +4, and now finally a +5, and should a +7 ever comes out I would probably one of the first people to get it. Yes, I know that it took me 24 days playing EVE, when I first started, to mine enough to buy a Thorax for 8 Million ISk! Does that mean every noob needs to go through the same? Yes, I know that I had spent additional 3 months in my Imicus, before I moved to the said Thorax. Does that mean every noob needs to go through the same? Yes, I know that I used to have to actually CLICK THE WAY POINT GATE before I was actually able to warp to it. Does that mean every noob needs to go through the same? I mean we can stay here and list hundreds, if not thousands of things we had to do when we were noobs, and shake a fist at "them whipper-snappers, them no good youngsters, who have it all easy... well in my days..." Point is, time has come to completely re-evaluate the Learning Skills, since they represent nothing in game other than a massive time-sink. Times change, and we have to change with them, and we should keep EVE "hard-core," but, please, lets try and be reasonable about it. When I say that EVE PVP/Loss/Gain should be like WoW - then you can come and troll me to death, or mail me a letter bomb, or place flaming dog crap on my porch, until then try to keep an open mind, and think long term, taking in the immensely grown SkilL Tree of EVE in the past five years.
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.07 00:56:00 - [20] This topic is brought up probably at least once every other month. Whether it's a good idea or not, it's very unlikely to be implemented. CCP is well aware of the issue, but has done nothing about it and likely will not do anything about it. The only change I foresee them making to the learning skills is starting new characters with more of them at 5, as new characters have, over time, been getting more and more starting SP.
Fragito Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.07 03:51:00 - [21] I still see nothing wrong with the current Learning skills, if you want to gain skills faster, spend the time on getting the ability. Suck it up and stop complaining about those who took the time to do it and are catching up to you in skill points.
Ygo Gales	Posted - 2008.10.07 04:00:00 - [22] I gotta say while this isn't a bad idea, if the game was always like this, but going and changing it now is unfair to anyone that has spent the time in getting the Learning skills. I mean I'm still a young player, and I have more SP in learning than any other field of skills. For that matter I started a corp, and every person that joins recieved the same advice, get your learning trained up first, because it pays off in the end. As fairly new players, your idea would set all of us back to nearly day 1, we lose the points we've already established, and then we lose months of SP. If any other new player like myself was hit by this, I think a great many would quit playing. Its a huge gimp, and only helps the newest of players, and them not by much, and it still doesn't hurt the oldest of players that had the benefit of those attributes from the beginning.
Clansworth Burning Sky Labs	Posted - 2008.10.07 05:32:00 - [23] Originally by: Del Narveux I like this, but 50 points is way way way way way too much. Should be around 10-15 points, in keeping with the amount you get from learning skills (in addition to base stats, implants etc). I believe the 50 points he was talking about was the total points added by having all 10 learning skills to V. (5 per attribute for the basics, 5 per attribute for the advanced). This is the full 50 points. Let them allocate them as they wish, as they are recieved via the timetable discussed. Example: Player A has perception and memory at +7 (basic V + adv II) the others are at +4 (Basic IV) This gives him 7 + 7 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 26 bonus already. His attributes stay as they are, and he starts the bonus payout at the +26 point. He loses nothing, and will be given 2 free atribute points every 2 weeks. He can still only assign attribute points up to a +10 on each attribute, so no extremes greater than training the advanced to V. Player B is new. Just created. He is on a trial, therefore, he has just his base points. after playing for 6 days, he starts his subscription. From that next day on, he starts the bonus point regimen (2 pts a day for 7 days, the 2 points bi-weekly until all stats are at base +10.) He trains wht he wants from the beginning, instead of 'wasting' time on stats that wouldn't add anything fun to his new player experience. As a wiley old veteran, I would like the SP payoff, even at the 50% or something.. I'm not sure I'd be overly upset either way though. I just would love to see new players not ahve to be told "Make sure you train up your learning skills first, even though it will make the first few months pretty boring". New Prospector Class
Daemien Murdoc	Posted - 2008.10.07 12:58:00 - [24] How about just modifying the adv learning skills abit? 5% reduction to the training time per lvl: Clarity: Spaceship command Navigation Focus: Gunnery Missile launcher operation Logic: Electronics Engineering Mechanic Science Eidetic Memory Drones Industry Presence: Corporation management Leadership Social Trade Leave the Rank 1 learning skills as they are.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.10.07 14:07:00 - [25] Originally by: Daemien Murdoc How about just modifying the adv learning skills abit? 5% reduction to the training time per lvl: Clarity: Spaceship command Navigation Focus: Gunnery Missile launcher operation Logic: Electronics Engineering Mechanic Science Eidetic Memory Drones Industry Presence: Corporation management Leadership Social Trade Leave the Rank 1 learning skills as they are. i wouldn't mind that except that so many t2 ship skills don't use perception as the primary so it would alter a good bit there. not saying it would be bad it would just need to be looked into a little more i think.

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