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steveid Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.10.05 13:43:00 - [1] I have read with interest how uber the falcon is and all and how it needs nerfing, but i've always been one that doesn't hate - I train. So in the process of training i thought it would make sense to train the Kitsune, take me a bit longer to get to the falcon but i'd understand the basics better as its been an age since i flew the blackbird (being amarr and gallente). Now i've trained it, had around 10 fights in it so fart and the three times i've come across the falcon i have had it permajammed. This leads me to think - what is all the fuss about? Its not hard to train the kitsune, hell i dont even fit weapons on mine (I dont what to get the idea that i can shoot something), so why are people screaming nerf when its relativelly simple not only to remove them from the fight but in a ship a third of its value?
james126	Posted - 2008.10.05 14:29:00 - [2] when people say nerf the falcon, they indirectly apply it to other caldary jamming ships two (rook, kitsune & scorp), it wouldnt make sence for them just to nerf the falcon, and then for another jamming ship to just take its place.
Karrade Krise	Posted - 2008.10.05 14:32:00 - [3] Kitsune is a fun ship to fly. Its' major disadvantages to the Falcon though is it can't warp cloaked, has very low EHP, can't jam as many targets, and has a MUCH shorter targeting range. Don't get me wrong I love taking out a Kitsune in small gangs, it's a blast There are many ways to counter falcons if you plan accordingly. (as you can see from so many nerfwagon threads not maany people seem to be able to comprehend how to take them down or scare them off) So in my most humble argument against yours...Falcon > Kitsune :D
steveid Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.10.05 14:42:00 - [4] Originally by: james126 when people say nerf the falcon, they indirectly apply it to other caldary jamming ships two (rook, kitsune & scorp), it wouldnt make sence for them just to nerf the falcon, and then for another jamming ship to just take its place. My point was that in around 2 weeks anyone can have a counter to the falcons thats cheap and versatile. Thereby in my book its not overpowered, people just arn't adapting. The kitsune is far more effective a counter than the hyena for nano's for example. The range is nice for the falcon but a kitsune easily does 3km/s and so this isn't as important imo.
echohead	Posted - 2008.10.05 14:51:00 - [5] I totally agree. Very few things in eve are unbalanced, people just refuse to change their tactics to suit the battlefield. I think the problem is older players, my corpmates and I got into this game in early 2007. We have had to learn how to adapt and use tactics to our advantage instead of flying around max skilled BS's to win fights. People like using efit and making ships with uber tanks or gank ability. But younger players without billions in the bank or 50mil SP have to resort to cheesy tactics like using falcons. One of my corpmates said it best "You can only defend against 2 types of attack at a time in eve, if someone brings a ship designed to do something other than what your defending against you are pretty much screwed"
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.05 15:21:00 - [6] Originally by: echohead Good post Well said! Awesome EVE history
Haniblecter Teg	Posted - 2008.10.05 16:43:00 - [7] Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 05/10/2008 16:43:24 Yea, but there's cheese and then there's cheese. Like most sandwiches, almost every gang has cheeeese in it. I'd like more variety in gangs my nublings. ----------------- Friends Forever
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.05 17:05:00 - [8] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 05/10/2008 17:07:22 Originally by: steveid Its not hard to train the kitsune, hell i dont even fit weapons on mine (I dont what to get the idea that i can shoot something), so why are people screaming nerf when its relativelly simple not only to remove them from the fight but in a ship a third of its value? Well, some scenarios: (a) Agress Falcon. (b) One-volleyed by sentries. (a) Spotted on scanner. (b) Targetted on by any mid range ship the gang has, one-volleyed by any mid-range ship 10s afterwards. etc... Originally by: echohead But younger players without billions in the bank or 50mil SP have to resort to cheesy tactics like using falcons. Rather then Rooks/Scorpions/Kitsunes any other EW recon? Hm, yeah, very balanced "Cheesy tactics" Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.05 17:30:00 - [9] its the cloaking feature that really makes the Falcon powerful. Overall I think a nurf is inevitable. ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.05 17:33:00 - [10] Cool......NERF KITSUNES AND FALCONS! -- Sig: NARF FALCONS!!!

Galliana Foresta Gallente Fleeting Moments of Insanity	Posted - 2008.10.05 17:52:00 - [11] Originally by: steveid I have read with interest how uber the falcon is and all and how it needs nerfing, but i've always been one that doesn't hate - I train. So in the process of training i thought it would make sense to train the Kitsune, take me a bit longer to get to the falcon but i'd understand the basics better as its been an age since i flew the blackbird (being amarr and gallente). Now i've trained it, had around 10 fights in it so fart and the three times i've come across the falcon i have had it permajammed. This leads me to think - what is all the fuss about? Its not hard to train the kitsune, hell i dont even fit weapons on mine (I dont what to get the idea that i can shoot something), so why are people screaming nerf when its relativelly simple not only to remove them from the fight but in a ship a third of its value? Sorry. Nothing constructive to add. Just loled when I saw this. HIRING\|KB\|PRESS
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This	Posted - 2008.10.05 18:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky its the cloaking feature that really makes the Falcon powerful. Overall I think a nurf is inevitable. Err, it's the ability to jam so consistently and effectively from so far away that makes the Falcon so powerful. Cloaks are just a nice bonus. If they couldn't cloak, they'd simply warp in a bit later from a SS. They're not solo ships, so 'surprise!' isn't a required component of their effectiveness...
Khraunus Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.05 18:57:00 - [13] Edited by: Khraunus on 05/10/2008 18:58:10 Originally by: steveid Now i've trained it, had around 10 fights in it so fart Originally by: steveid had around 10 fights in it so fart Originally by: steveid 10 fights in it so fart Originally by: steveid so fart Originally by: steveid fart To awnser your question, all the races (except gallente) have fun EA frigs. People just step into falcons because they think ECM is an instant i-win button.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.05 20:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Mr Friendly Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky its the cloaking feature that really makes the Falcon powerful. Overall I think a nurf is inevitable. Err, it's the ability to jam so consistently and effectively from so far away that makes the Falcon so powerful. Cloaks are just a nice bonus. If they couldn't cloak, they'd simply warp in a bit later from a SS. They're not solo ships, so 'surprise!' isn't a required component of their effectiveness... The suprise factor (coming from inscoutability) is precisely what makes them overpowered really. The comment that 'they're not solo ship' is correct, they're "unaffiliated suprise buttsex alt" ships, and for that, suprise is quite vital. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.05 20:19:00 - [15] Originally by: echohead ....I think the problem is older players, my corpmates and I got into this game in early 2007. We have had to learn how to adapt and use tactics to our advantage instead of flying around max skilled BS's to win fights... Trust me, thats plenty of time to be a max skilled BS pilot, lay off on the "he's older he won EVE" whines Sure you won't be flying all four races of max skilled BS, but you have the chance to be just as competitive. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.10.05 20:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Cpt Branko The suprise factor (coming from inscoutability) is precisely what makes them overpowered really. The comment that 'they're not solo ship' is correct, they're "unaffiliated suprise buttsex alt" ships, and for that, suprise is quite vital. So let me get this right, everyone uses them and they are always a surprise? Can't quite put my finger on it...
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.05 21:00:00 - [17] Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: Cpt Branko The suprise factor (coming from inscoutability) is precisely what makes them overpowered really. The comment that 'they're not solo ship' is correct, they're "unaffiliated suprise buttsex alt" ships, and for that, suprise is quite vital. So let me get this right, everyone uses them and they are always a surprise? Can't quite put my finger on it... Even more logical than saying "ECCM is useless" in the same sentence as "every gang has 4 falcons"...
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.10.05 21:03:00 - [18] Edited by: daisy dook on 05/10/2008 21:03:59 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: Cpt Branko The suprise factor (coming from inscoutability) is precisely what makes them overpowered really. The comment that 'they're not solo ship' is correct, they're "unaffiliated suprise buttsex alt" ships, and for that, suprise is quite vital. So let me get this right, everyone uses them and they are always a surprise? Can't quite put my finger on it... Even more logical than saying "ECCM is useless" in the same sentence as "every gang has 4 falcons"... Was that four falcons with the correct load of racial ECMs ? Damb those gangs... makes you wonder where they have time for DPS. --edit for spelling
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.05 22:15:00 - [19] Edited by: James Lyrus on 05/10/2008 22:16:48 Originally by: Mr Friendly Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky its the cloaking feature that really makes the Falcon powerful. Overall I think a nurf is inevitable. Err, it's the ability to jam so consistently and effectively from so far away that makes the Falcon so powerful. Cloaks are just a nice bonus. If they couldn't cloak, they'd simply warp in a bit later from a SS. They're not solo ships, so 'surprise!' isn't a required component of their effectiveness... Thing is though, the Rook has _always_ been that powerful, and is actually better at range (marginally, at least - it's got better sensor systems). So it's not the power, nor the range. Nor is it the cloak - other ships can covops cloak, and they're not a problem. The problem is in the interaction of these things - a cloak (especially covops) gives a degree of evasion. ECM gives a degree of evasion. Long range gives a degree of evasion. Falcon's the only ship that gets 3 'levels' of evasion. All other ships get 1, maybe 2. Personally I think the Falcon obseleted the Rook, which is as good a case to revisit it as any. I think it's needing to lose one degree of it's 'evasion' and the most appropriate one is it's range - can't really lose the cloak, and dropping the ECM power ... well, doesn't actually help much, unless you drop the ECM power _substantially_ at which point the ship becomes worthless. But force it to engage at 80km, rather than 180, and you're suddenly looking at a fight where it's viable to engage it with a battleship, BC, or some brands of HAC, without having to take a specific 'anti-falcon' fit with you. And it'd make the Rook do something different and useful, too. (Although, it'd be nice if the Rook got a missile range bonus instead of the kin damage bonus - bit worse DPS would be a good trade for being able to actually use that DPS at ECM optimal) But to answer the OP - kitsunes make excellent counter-jammers, because they're fast, agile, and hard to lock, whilst being able to counter-lock quite rapidly. So yes, a good counter to a falcon. But then, there's good counters to falcons, and people still ***** at how their 'only short range BS' blob got owned. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Lance Mercer	Posted - 2008.10.05 23:12:00 - [20] All the nef falcon threads really boil down to nerf ECM str... OR nerf the falcons ability to do its job at 200km, while being able to cloak. I say remove the range bonus from the falcon. The rook would still be capable to do this but atleast it would be seen the entire time on scanner, not just when it decides to appear on your grid 200km off. ECM has been this powerfull for a long time, it just took alot(most of the EVE public) a long time to figure it out. ECCM is great, just not powerfull enough to offset even one ECM racial jammer of same race. Another problem is that there are multiple support skills for EWAR that boost the power of ECM, all the while not having even one support skill for defensive EWAR modules {i.e. sensor boosters, ECCM, remote sensor boosters, remote tracking enhancers, remote ECCM, etc.} this dosnt include the lack of support skills for such things as improving ones ships own inate properties, I would like to be able to train a 4x multiplier skill for increasing my ships sensor str, scan res, number of lockable targets,etc..

Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.10.06 06:00:00 - [21] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 06/10/2008 06:02:11 Originally by: James Lyrus Edited by: James Lyrus on 05/10/2008 22:16:48 Originally by: Mr Friendly Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky its the cloaking feature that really makes the Falcon powerful. Overall I think a nurf is inevitable. Err, it's the ability to jam so consistently and effectively from so far away that makes the Falcon so powerful. Cloaks are just a nice bonus. If they couldn't cloak, they'd simply warp in a bit later from a SS. They're not solo ships, so 'surprise!' isn't a required component of their effectiveness... Thing is though, the Rook has _always_ been that powerful, and is actually better at range (marginally, at least - it's got better sensor systems). So it's not the power, nor the range. Nor is it the cloak - other ships can covops cloak, and they're not a problem. The problem is in the interaction of these things - a cloak (especially covops) gives a degree of evasion. ECM gives a degree of evasion. Long range gives a degree of evasion. Falcon's the only ship that gets 3 'levels' of evasion. All other ships get 1, maybe 2. Personally I think the Falcon obseleted the Rook, which is as good a case to revisit it as any. I think it's needing to lose one degree of it's 'evasion' and the most appropriate one is it's range - can't really lose the cloak, and dropping the ECM power ... well, doesn't actually help much, unless you drop the ECM power _substantially_ at which point the ship becomes worthless. But force it to engage at 80km, rather than 180, and you're suddenly looking at a fight where it's viable to engage it with a battleship, BC, or some brands of HAC, without having to take a specific 'anti-falcon' fit with you. And it'd make the Rook do something different and useful, too. (Although, it'd be nice if the Rook got a missile range bonus instead of the kin damage bonus - bit worse DPS would be a good trade for being able to actually use that DPS at ECM optimal) But to answer the OP - kitsunes make excellent counter-jammers, because they're fast, agile, and hard to lock, whilst being able to counter-lock quite rapidly. So yes, a good counter to a falcon. But then, there's good counters to falcons, and people still ***** at how their 'only short range BS' blob got owned. true .... the ECM strength bonus on par for the rook was too much ... I was one of the folks asking for it, but not that much :-) rook needs a bit more resists and grid to fit HAMs properly... falcon needs -5% ecm strength on the recon bonus ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Murkon Salesgirl Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.06 07:20:00 - [22] Kitsune is a good jammer.. but its range is too short. You will get 1 vollied from antisupport. That's the advantage of falcons, their extreme range combined with cloak. I don't see an issue with it per say. It's just other forms of EWAR are simply lacking in comparison, which makes everyone use ECM/falcons etc. For example: Damps, its overnerfed. Turret disruptors, not working on 2/3 weapon systems. ECM? Works against everything bar FOF missile.. which isnt a counter at the range ecm operate at. Now, if you made the arazu or lach recons better with damps (longer range, more effective), you will see more varied fleets instead of "we need ECM!!" it becomes "we need EWAR!".
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.06 07:24:00 - [23] Originally by: echohead I totally agree. Very few things in eve are unbalanced, people just refuse to change their tactics to suit the battlefield. I think the problem is older players, my corpmates and I got into this game in early 2007. We have had to learn how to adapt and use tactics to our advantage instead of flying around max skilled BS's to win fights. People like using efit and making ships with uber tanks or gank ability. But younger players without billions in the bank or 50mil SP have to resort to cheesy tactics like using falcons. One of my corpmates said it best "You can only defend against 2 types of attack at a time in eve, if someone brings a ship designed to do something other than what your defending against you are pretty much screwed" Utter bullshit. To get the Falcon done right you do need to put some serious SP into it, SP that can get close to that of having a fully t2 fitted battleships. You say that younger players lack the ability to get into t2 fitted battleships, somewhat indirectly comparing it to the abilities of older players. In the end it doesn't matter how much SP you have, only a fraction of what you have boosts the ship you are using right then and there. --- I smack just for myself.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.10.06 07:33:00 - [24] Falcons are fine nerf falcon alts. Maybe make jamming more interactive, like a rhythm game you have to play and dedicate concentration to at all times.
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.06 09:03:00 - [25] jeez louise, you people dont realize that ECM's already been nerfed so hard its seeing stars, and now you want it nerfed again? Why not remove all forms of EW while you're at it. Why not nerf everything. You lot will never be satisfied. -
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.06 09:11:00 - [26] Originally by: steveid Thereby in my book its not overpowered, people just arn't adapting. This.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.06 09:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Vabjekf Falcons are fine nerf falcon alts. Maybe make jamming more interactive, like a rhythm game you have to play and dedicate concentration to at all times. Fine by me. This would actually boost Falcons as far as I'm concerned, since I've stopped flying them on account of boredom.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.06 09:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Vabjekf Falcons are fine nerf falcon alts. Yes, please stop people paying for and training characters on more than one account,


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