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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2008.10.06 06:52:00 -
[1]
Myth or not?
Discuss.
(Means that is there really some mystical UndercutBotsÖ that will frack up your 0.01isk wars and start battle against each other? I have seen this happening before.. Or is there really people 23/7 online just adjusting their market values?  )
"The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of goldcrap"
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Era Vulgaris
Auto Pilots
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Posted - 2008.10.06 06:57:00 -
[2]
I don't think they exist. Goonswarm's private coder team tried to build one and couldn't manage it.
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Frenden Dax
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Posted - 2008.10.06 07:32:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Frenden Dax on 06/10/2008 07:34:53
Edited by: Frenden Dax on 06/10/2008 07:32:08
I don't know about bots that undercut, but I saw this earlier and it made me scratch my head.
Three buy orders, placed within ten seconds of each other, for the same item, at the same price? Wierdness; in Jita that might be good to avoid undercutting, but in Rens not so much. And you'll note that since since they went up they haven't been touched.
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flakeys
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.10.06 07:59:00 -
[4]
Edited by: flakeys on 06/10/2008 07:59:04
 Originally by: Kuolematon
Myth or not?
Discuss.
(Means that is there really some mystical UndercutBotsÖ that will frack up your 0.01isk wars and start battle against each other?
Ebay says this is a lie 
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2008.10.06 08:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: flakeys
Ebay says this is a lie
I'm confused. Your saying I'm eBayed character?
If so, I feel happy because I'm soooo expensive!
"The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of goldcrap"
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.10.06 08:29:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Myth or not?
Who cares when you can't prove it? All that has ever been offered is anecdotal evidence. All that can be offered at best is supposition. Originally by: Kuolematon
Discuss.
Already has been ad infinitum ad nauseum. Why not just dig up one of those threads? Oh wait, doesn't serve the ego, nvm. Mind you I think anyone that just drops a troll topic w/Discuss! and no opinions is a loser. Personal opinion mind you but I'm sure it is shared by many. I'll leave this thread now so that you can troll in freedom while a few of the less experienced (or less intelligent) players fall for this tripe.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Jackie Fisher
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2008.10.06 09:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kuolematon
I'm confused. Your saying I'm eBayed character?
I think he is saying if there aren't any for sale on ebay then they are unlikely to exist.
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flakeys
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.10.06 10:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
Originally by: Kuolematon
I'm confused. Your saying I'm eBayed character?
I think he is saying if there aren't any for sale on ebay then they are unlikely to exist.
Yep thats what i was saying.
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.10.06 10:10:00 -
[9]
All I know is that I haven't run into anything yet that I'd consider a trade bot. But I haven't done that much serious trading.
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Augeas
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Posted - 2008.10.06 11:31:00 -
[10]
I've met undercutting behaviour that's identical to that expected from a market bot.
But really, I think it's more likely that I'm just dealing with someone with more time than sense. A hefty undercut tends to stop the insta-undercutters dead anyway - and if it doesn't then I'll quite happily just destroy their profit margin - so it doesn't really matter.
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.10.06 11:43:00 -
[11]
Google it? If you can't find it then it's at least not publically distributed.
Diary of a pod pilot |
Tanabe Yukiko
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.10.06 12:03:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Tanabe Yukiko on 06/10/2008 12:03:34
I've done some googl'ing during downtime: while there is an abundance of bots/macros for mining, there seem to be none for automated price adjustments in trading. At least not available on public sites. Some people in different forums claim(ed) to be working on such software, and some paysites advertise having it - although that might just be a scheme to scam people who would actually pay to be able to use these bots.
I'm certainly not gonna pay to investigate these claims. 
As many others before me have done, I'd speculate it's just actual players with too much time on their hands, working hard to get carpal tunnel syndrome.
EDIT: typo.
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CornerStoner
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Posted - 2008.10.06 13:51:00 -
[13]
Troll topics.
Real or myth?
Discuss.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.10.06 14:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Myth or not?
Discuss.
(Means that is there really some mystical UndercutBotsÖ that will frack up your 0.01isk wars and start battle against each other? I have seen this happening before.. Or is there really people 23/7 online just adjusting their market values? )
With the amount of effort you've put into this I can't understand why anyone in making fun of you.
Seriously people! The guy put at LEAST 30 seconds of work into this post! That's 30 whole seconds! |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:09:00 -
[15]
Originally by: CornerStoner
Troll topics.
Real or myth?
Discuss.
EBay say this is a lie
Drones | Rigs | Ships
BPO and BPC |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:51:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 06/10/2008 15:52:54
While I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of market bots, I will relate the following:
1) On a good night without much lag, I can run through a list of 250 items in about an hour. Give or take a few minutes, that works out to about 4 changes a minute, or 15 sec between changes. The market loads decidedly much faster during the first half of the day, regardless of system traffic, so I suspect there may be some inner workings of the market code that either bloat or have memory leaks that can only be resolved during downtime.
2) I have seen specific vendors that use "signature" prices -- eg, their bids always end in .42. While not proof of anything, this could be used by an OCR program to indicate where their orders are in relation to the top of the list. It could also just be a visual indicator used by the trader to speed up the process of checking their position, so take it with a grain of salt.
3) I have seen a jump in the response time of undercutters to changes I make at random times. While this could be explained by a dedicated trader with my name on a Friends list and a decent study of my purchasing habits, it strikes me as curious as to how there's an update almost exactly 5 minutes to the time I make my changes. This is not in a system that is full of dedicated traders, such as Jita. There aren't more than two or three competitors in the same fields as mine, and I know their favorite stations and ordering habits. The confusing part is when I double back to try and catch them on the switch, I'll typically see them re-up their orders almost exactly 5 minutes to their previous mark.
4) In relation to #3, I've also tried mixing up my ordering patterns (ie, bottom up, or by price first) and I'll notice that the rate at which I'm undercut is about the same. Either someone has developed lightning-quick reflexes to check every order in a market nearly instantaneously, or shenanigans are afoot.
If I were in charge over at CCP, there's a few changes I would make to the marketing process that would help alleviate any concerns about market bots:
-Extend the period between order updates from 5 minutes to 10. Allow for immediate cancellations, but keep the order "in queue" until the 10 minute period expires to avoid cancelled orders as a work around the update timer.
-Change the fees for updating market orders from a flat 100 isk to the greater of 10% of the price per item or 1000 isk.
-Allow for a whitelist for who can add you to their friends list, or allow for custom CSPA fees similar to how email is configured.
-Add a visual Captcha every 50th or 100th transaction to confirm the "humanness" of the trader.
-Add or Increase the delay between market orders and their availability on the API export, to reduce automation usefulness.
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\\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Enihcam Xes
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Posted - 2008.10.06 17:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Alz Shado
Edited by: Alz Shado on 06/10/2008 15:52:54
2) I have seen specific vendors that use "signature" prices -- eg, their bids always end in .42. While not proof of anything, this could be used by an OCR program to indicate where their orders are in relation to the top of the list. It could also just be a visual indicator used by the trader to speed up the process of checking their position, so take it with a grain of salt.
3) I have seen a jump in the response time of undercutters to changes I make at random times. While this could be explained by a dedicated trader with my name on a Friends list and a decent study of my purchasing habits, it strikes me as curious as to how there's an update almost exactly 5 minutes to the time I make my changes. This is not in a system that is full of dedicated traders, such as Jita. There aren't more than two or three competitors in the same fields as mine, and I know their favorite stations and ordering habits. The confusing part is when I double back to try and catch them on the switch, I'll typically see them re-up their orders almost exactly 5 minutes to their previous mark.
-Add or Increase the delay between market orders and their availability on the API export, to reduce automation usefulness.
Using a tag to check the location of your orders is very common and says nothing about automation. Most people who use the items list to browse their orders use tags, while people who use the (slower) wallet view tend no to. Nothing to do with bots.
Buy up items from the suspected market bot. If that 5min behavior persists 23/7 you have cause to file a petition. If not then its probably just a more dedicated trader then you. When I was first starting off and had only 60 orders I could check them all in under 5 minutes assuming only a few needed updates. I still watch my orders like a hawk but not that I've got about 300 to check it takes a lot longer.
Market order API only works once every 24 hours. I don't think anyone uses it for automation.
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.10.06 18:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Alz Shado
Edited by: Alz Shado on 06/10/2008 17:53:37
If I were in charge over at CCP, there's a few changes I would make to the marketing process that would help alleviate any concerns about market bots:
-Extend the period between order updates from 5 minutes to 10. Allow for immediate cancellations, but keep the order "in queue" until the 10 minute period expires to avoid cancelled orders as a work around the update timer.
-Change the fees for updating market orders from a flat 100 isk to the greater of 1% of the price per item or 1000 isk.
-Allow for a whitelist for who can add you to their friends list, or allow for custom CSPA fees similar to how email is configured.
-Add a visual Captcha every 50th or 100th transaction to confirm the "humanness" of the trader.
-Add or Increase the delay between market orders and their availability on the API export, to reduce automation usefulness.
The captcha is interesting, but all of these changes interfere with human players' activities too. For that reason, I would oppose most of this stuff.
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Gatiep
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Posted - 2008.10.06 19:52:00 -
[19]
I'm going to try lay this one to rest.
Market bots, can it be done? Simple answer is yes. Macro software is freely available on the net for anyone to download and script a bunch of actions a computer can take, whether that is opening up a word document / importing information into said document, or running tasks at specific times, completely by automation. Can this be applied to a game such as eve? Pretty easily.
I used a certain scripting software (I won't divulge what, lest some people go take advantage of it) that allowed you to perform the following actions: use a timer to start the script, alt-tab between windows, click (precisely where you want it to on the screen, by mapping x, y coordinates), enter digits and numbers, and search in text files. What does this mean? It is all you need to get a bot to play the 0.01 isk war. Tell the computer when to start, alt tab into eve, click export market data (to some location). Have that folder opened on desktop and alt tab back, open the .txt file created, search the current data (whether its buy or sell order), have the program check whether your order is the current highest/lowest order. If it is, do nothing, if it isn't, increment said value by .01, alt tab back into eve, right click modify order, enter the value and voila. Now obviously you'd have to get everything clicking the right places but that's hardly the problem. You can even tell the program to increase a buy order to a limit (say, if you're not willing to pay more than XX amount, the program will not modify your order, if the price in-game has become too low or high.)
Please know that I do not admit to using such a script in eve, but I am showing you how it is quite easily done (with a bit of programming knowledge). Trust me when I say you certainly don't need a 'team of coders' lol. But so there you have it, it can be done, and with quite a bit of efficiency.
HOWEVER, I want to argue its viability. Things you have to keep in mind: order modifications is limited to be performed every 5 minutes, and unless you have multiple orders for the same item, you can't update it every second. The program would have to be timed to check every 5 mins/ 10 mins, whatever. Second, this program would need to be constantly running, and everything needs to be 'in the correct place', so using the computer while it is going at its script is not really possible - you will likely screw up the script if you have other windows open. Playing eve while having it running is also out of the question.
Personally, I find it much easier to simply modify my orders when I can and when I do log on during the day. Of course there are others who wouldn't mind turning their computer into a bot for such purposes, but to a normal eve player its a potential hindrance. Some may think there's a danger in having people realize you're running a bot, hypothetically, and making low sell orders / high buy orders so that your bot will modify your orders accordingly, and thus you stand a risk of losing isk. This is a real threat if indeed you don't program a script with a 'limit value', and, of course, if you screw up somewhere. TBH, you stand a good chance of losing if someone attempted something like that.
I fully realize that such indulgences are against the EULA, so I am speaking to you with regard to the hypothetical usage of such a program. That it is possible I have no doubt. That other people are using such a thing, I can't be sure, but I'll be damned if I'm the only person who has the knowledge to do it :S. That said, I divulge these things so that you might be aware that it's certainly possible, and more likely, that it's probably being used. As I said however, despite the EULA disallowing it, it isn't extremely viable.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:58:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 06/10/2008 20:59:26
Originally by: Enihcam Xes
Market order API only works once every 24 hours. I don't think anyone uses it for automation.
From the My Character screen:
Personal Data Exports
Note: Please right click and choose Save As on the links.
Wallet Journal - most recent entries
Market Transactions - most recent transactions
Data can be downloaded one time per hour only.
And I'm pretty sure the "Export to file" button in the market tab is unlimited.
Originally by: Tasko Pal
The captcha is interesting, but all of these changes interfere with human players' activities too. For that reason, I would oppose most of this stuff.
They were originally solutions I had to fixing .01 undercutting in general. In retrospect, a lot of the same penalties that would deter the practice also apply to preventing automation. If you make it more expensive to run a dumb bot, the less likely they are to be put into use.
Whitelisting just makes sense, considering it's called a "Buddy List" but more frequently used as an "Enemy list".
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\\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.10.07 06:09:00 -
[21]
I've experimented with writing bots using c#, I never actually got to the point of finishing the OCR library as I just don't have the time (too busy updating market orders, LOL) but I can state that it's 100% possible and would be about a week's solid work for a good developer.
I wouldn't use one anyway, mainly because I'm not a cheat, but secondly because most of my market activity is longer-term... undercutting everyone all the time isn't much use to me.
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Zos Tarkross
Amarr
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.10.07 11:18:00 -
[22]
Here's a hypothesis: the behaviour of all of us (traders) makes it seem like a market bot is operating, when in fact it isn't.
Let's just make up some numbers (obviously, change the assumptions, you'll get a different result, but you'll see where this is headed)...
I read some stat that the vast majority of forum readers don't post. So assume just 20 active posters in MD. Multiply by 10. This gives 200 active traders. Probably a lowball estimate but that's just ~1% of the online logged in amount or ~0.1% of total players in EvE.
Suppose 50% of those traders also use alts. Gives 300 trader characters. Say 125 of them are in Jita given the volume vs other hubs (keep in mind the other volume in Jita would come from many people who don't actively trade, going there to buy/sell and adding liquidity that way). The other 175 of them are in more minor hubs - say just 5 (Ours, Dodi, Rens, Motsu, Amarr). 175/5 = 35 per hub. Now suppose they login twice per day, in the morning and night. Often when I log in for an hour I'll check my orders upon login, play some on my main, then go back to my trading alt before I log off.
So in a minor hub, that is 35 x 4 = 140 updates per day. Each "update" means a single player altering some orders, so that means that the price of a number of items is being altered per update, in this equation. Given maybe 10 hours a day when the player base is most active, that's 14 updates per "active hour" or one less than every 5 minutes.
So maybe it isn't surprising that we all think we're fighting bots for ISK when in fact it's our own behaviour against each other ("we have met the enemy, and he is us"). Certainly, I've behaved like a bot, just to annoy people. To wit, by the time I get to the end of an update order list, I'll sometimes go back to the beginning and check, and update accordingly. This would be in line with the 5 minute update frequency of the alleged bots.
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Demtalin le'Mercennaire
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.07 13:16:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Alz Shado
-Add a visual Captcha every 50th or 100th transaction to confirm the "humanness" of the trader.
Even though I'm skeptical about the existance of market bots (I haven't come across this activity myself...even if I was just a short term trader), I think this would help in the event that there were any.
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Billy Jean is not my lover |
Digital Anarchist
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 13:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Frenden Dax
Three buy orders, placed within ten seconds of each other, for the same item, at the same price? Wierdness; in Jita that might be good to avoid undercutting, but in Rens not so much. And you'll note that since since they went up they haven't been touched.
THREE!!!!1oneone
There's no point in educating you about that tactic. Figure it out for yourself.
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This space for rent |
Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.10.07 14:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Digital Anarchist
THREE!!!!1oneone
There's no point in educating you about that tactic. Figure it out for yourself.
I got to agree with you Digital. That is why I normally no longer bother posting in threads claiming market bots. Since so often the tactic that is reported to be "bot-tastic", is just some form of advanced market PvP as I recognize it. Market tactics that I(a non bot) have employed or have had employed against me by other non-bot players.
A caveman would call a lighter, magic. A simple trader see's bots around every corner.
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Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:40:00 -
[26]
I highly doubt that these are used extensively, not because it's impossible to make them, but it's so easy to spot them. Imagine a product you just can't sell, because there's always someone that sets a better price (doesn't have to happen instantly). I bet that gets noticed rather quickly. Sure it could not be used all the time, but then what would the use be of such a bot, you want to make isk if your using such a bot. And there are easier ways to make isk than use a lowest seller bot in eve, mining bots get noticed a whole lot less then a market bot ever would, and you can deploy a whole lot more of those...
On the other hand someone might make one as an experiment, and would only turn it on as an experiment, and thus wouldn't impact the market much. I imagine someone smart enough to make one wouldn't be stupid enough to actually use it.
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Enihcam Xes
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:08:00 -
[27]
Whenever I've come accross market bot behavior I immediately start testing it as they can be VERY profitable when you find them. Some players blindly out compete prices, but after a certain point they will stop. Any human player will know that undercutting someone .01 isk above the highest buy order is a bad plan. Market bots will keep going and fill your buy orders. Its that easy to take advantage of them.
If you find a market bot then buy out the top of the market and use those goods to fill out the bottom to create a nice gap. Then when it updates its orders start swinging the prices back and forth and then tricking it into updating. Get it to place a buy at 1.1x and then sell to it, then put up sell orders so that it comes back in at 1.0x for its sell. Just do this all day until the bot runs out of money.
Conversely if its not really a market bot you are just giving away your isk to test it, so it's a gamble.
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Frenden Dax
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Posted - 2008.10.07 21:51:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Digital Anarchist
THREE!!!!1oneone
There's no point in educating you about that tactic. Figure it out for yourself.
 Please don't patronize me. While I am aware of several possible uses for placing multiple buy orders - at the same price or at varying prices - none of those applied that I could see. I'm not stating that the image I posted is proof of a bot; I'm simply observing that the behavior is odd with no cause I can detect, unless maybe to avoid freaking people out with one massive buy order for 300.
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.10.09 22:00:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Frenden Dax
Originally by: Digital Anarchist
THREE!!!!1oneone
There's no point in educating you about that tactic. Figure it out for yourself.
Please don't patronize me. While I am aware of several possible uses for placing multiple buy orders - at the same price or at varying prices - none of those applied that I could see. I'm not stating that the image I posted is proof of a bot; I'm simply observing that the behavior is odd with no cause I can detect, unless maybe to avoid freaking people out with one massive buy order for 300.
Well, I can see why you'd have three book orders. And the time between orders isn't that much.
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dr doooo
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Posted - 2008.10.09 22:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Kuolematon
Myth or not?
Who cares when you can't prove it? All that has ever been offered is anecdotal evidence. All that can be offered at best is supposition. Originally by: Kuolematon
Discuss.
Already has been ad infinitum ad nauseum. Why not just dig up one of those threads? Oh wait, doesn't serve the ego, nvm. Mind you I think anyone that just drops a troll topic w/Discuss! and no opinions is a loser. Personal opinion mind you but I'm sure it is shared by many. I'll leave this thread now so that you can troll in freedom while a few of the less experienced (or less intelligent) players fall for this tripe.
Quoted just for lols at the EGO.
I am pretty sure I came up against a bot on the high end pirate implants market, for about 3 weeks, a bit over a year ago. I even got up in the middle of the night gathering evidence (sad, I know). The player used to trade honestly pretty heavily, and then turn it on when he was afk. I put a post up about it on the forums, and it stopped 3 or 4 hours later, never to return, which pretty much clinched it for me that it wasn't a team of farmers. That is the only time I have come across anything like it in 3 years though.
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