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Johnny Ringo Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.06 16:44:00 - [1] IIRC, every Force Recon ship gets a bonus to the range of it's specialty weapon (Rapier = web range bonus, Arazu = web disruptor range bonus, falcon = jam range bonus) except the poor Pilgrim. Now neut amount boost is nice, no doubt, but the lack of neut range bonus means that the Pilgrim, unlike any of the other ships, basically has to engage within web range if it wants to use it's speciality weapon. Wouldn't it be more consistent, and make the Pilgrim more useable, if the neut amount bonus on the Pilgrim were replaced with a neut range bonus?
Aviane	Posted - 2008.10.06 16:45:00 - [2] Great new idea!
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.06 16:58:00 - [3] Originally by: Aviane Great new idea! -- Sig: NARF FALCONS!!!
The Bandid Amarr The Nightwatch	Posted - 2008.10.06 18:42:00 - [4] Pilgrim is just fine, learn to kit it !
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.10.06 18:56:00 - [5] If it could nos/neut out to 20km with lvl 4 skill, it would be fixed. this would allow it to fight outside of normal overheated web range (not faction webs, but there should be SOME counter). given that it would be more workable... i also think that the curse and pilgrim should get a bonus to nos that removes the rule of not sucking when the enemy has less cap than you. pre-nerf, my pilgrim worked great, even inside web range, since the cap i stole could run my tank. when i came back (post-nerf) it sucked to bad i sold it (yes, i tried neuts on it, only way i saw it workable was to get recon 5, and max skill for workable is broken if u ask me). --------------------------------------------- I may be a bit over Zealot, but i cant help myself, its the best investment i ever made!
Nomad Storm The Wandering Path	Posted - 2008.10.06 19:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Johnny Ringo neut amount bonus on the Pilgrim were replaced Im thinking you have proposed the worst pilgrim nerf ever.
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.10.06 19:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Nomad Storm Originally by: Johnny Ringo neut amount bonus on the Pilgrim were replaced Im thinking you have proposed the worst pilgrim nerf ever. Actually thats one of the best nerfs. If you say a nerf is bad, it means its actually a boost, where as a bad boost would actually be a nerf.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.10.06 19:47:00 - [8] How about giving the pilgrim the same bonus as the curse but with a smaller amount of bonus per level. That way you could eventualy get out of web range at recon 4 and overheated web at 5 but still be able to nos or neut for a decent amount. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:24:00 - [9] Originally by: Zeba How about giving the pilgrim the same bonus as the curse but with a smaller amount of bonus per level. That way you could eventualy get out of web range at recon 4 and overheated web at 5 but still be able to nos or neut for a decent amount. thats what i said.... --------------------------------------------- I may be a bit over Zealot, but i cant help myself, its the best investment i ever made!
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:26:00 - [10] so it gets to neut from 30+km, but it gets laughably effective neuts? what the hell does it need to be out at 30km for, it's a solo boat __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:33:00 - [11] FFS! The problem with the Pilgrim is not the bloody range! It was the NOS nerf that placed the ship on the lower end on the scale of Slick vs. Suck. And then they took away some armor from it as well. The Pilgrim was a solowtfpwnmobile for a scant little time, and then they took away a good portion of the disabling ability of the Nosferatus. And this was arguably a good thing for the balance. Doesn't mean they haven't gone a bit overboard with a few other things though. Either way, we Pilgrim pilots have to hold on to our balls and get up close and personal, and if you think there's something wrong with that, then there's something wrong with your opinion. Firstly, give the Pilgrim back those 200 points of armor that were removed for no reason whatsoever. Then, either give it back some disabling ability and survivability by adding to its cap, or increase its resists a bit. And then we can all just hold our thumbs and hope for medium drone damage implants. I do not want to see another one of these ******ed 'Pilgrim needs more range' threads. It's pretty damn transparent that all you want is to get to the optimal range to use tracking disruptors and burn around your foes at just inside warp scram range. Know what that might do? It might make the Pilgrim overpowered. And then you'd have to brace for another nerfbat, offsetting its abilities until it finally becomes as unbalanced and useless in solo as the Falcon.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:40:00 - [12] Originally by: InsanlyEvlPerson Originally by: Zeba How about giving the pilgrim the same bonus as the curse but with a smaller amount of bonus per level. That way you could eventualy get out of web range at recon 4 and overheated web at 5 but still be able to nos or neut for a decent amount. thats what i said.... Err sorry didn't read your post so /agree? :-) Originally by: Terianna Eri so it gets to neut from 30+km, but it gets laughably effective neuts? what the hell does it need to be out at 30km for, it's a solo boat What makes you think the new amount would be laughable? As it stands the current drain amount at recon 5 is nearly overkill and could easily survive a bit of a reduction as a trade off for longer range and still be able to kill the enemys cap quickly. Also there is not a single ship in eve that has the solo role by CCP design. The Pilgrim has two main roles, one is to bypass gate camps to spy or drop a cyno/covert cyno with the other as a sneaky cloaking heavy tackler for your gang to warp to. That its bonuses also make it handy as a solo boat are simply an added.. well.. bonus. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:00:00 - [13] There's the other problem that if you give the pilgrim a range bonus, then it can, and will, be nano'd effectively. It would become a cloaking curse, which, in addition being the gheyest ship ever to grace the skies, anywhere, ever, would be waaay overpowered. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:02:00 - [14] Originally by: Terianna Eri There's the other problem that if you give the pilgrim a range bonus, then it can, and will, be nano'd effectively. It would become a cloaking curse, which, in addition being the gheyest ship ever to grace the skies, anywhere, ever, would be waaay overpowered. Well look at it this way. By the time something like this would go from idea on the forums to CCP implimentation I would think the nano changes would already have hit Tq. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:04:00 - [15] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Terianna Eri There's the other problem that if you give the pilgrim a range bonus, then it can, and will, be nano'd effectively. It would become a cloaking curse, which, in addition being the gheyest ship ever to grace the skies, anywhere, ever, would be waaay overpowered. Well look at it this way. By the time something like this would go from idea on the forums to CCP implimentation I would think the nano changes would already have hit Tq. The pilgrim is pretty nice with the speed changes on sisi, tbh. AB to keep range, scram doubling as a web, 2x TD, and cap booster is pretty nice. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:11:00 - [16] Originally by: Terianna Eri The pilgrim is pretty nice with the speed changes on sisi, tbh. AB to keep range, scram doubling as a web, 2x TD, and cap booster is pretty nice. This is very true. But as long as its still in testing and not deployed we can make whine threads about the pilgrims vulnerability to webs that the other recons laugh at to use their bonus to the full. So nyah.. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Terianna Eri There's the other problem that if you give the pilgrim a range bonus, then it can, and will, be nano'd effectively. It would become a cloaking curse, which, in addition being the gheyest ship ever to grace the skies, anywhere, ever, would be waaay overpowered. This. My opinion. Precisely. Originally by: Terianna Eri The pilgrim is pretty nice with the speed changes on sisi, tbh. AB to keep range, scram doubling as a web, 2x TD, and cap booster is pretty nice. It is still too thin though. And we are rather susceptible to missile ships. And also, not all of us use TDs. I use an SD/ECM burst combo, for example, because I know that the ship performs best at about 3-7 km distance, and I like that sort of risky '****' gameplay. It's a lot more viable and a lot smarter for the Pilgrim than for any Thorax or one of its derivatives, because of the cloak.
Madla Mafia Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:44:00 - [18] I say remove the latest nos nerf from the Pilgrim and have you gain cap from your target no matter the levels of cap you two have. I'd like this for the Curse too, but that might be too much. ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Madla Mafia I say remove the latest nos nerf from the Pilgrim and have you gain cap from your target no matter the levels of cap you two have. I'd like this for the Curse too, but that might be too much. Risk for being overpowered, and removing the restriction from just one or two ships is a little... well... Add capacitor instead, I say, so it gets to use its Neuts and other more cap-draining modules more. Not that there are that many modules heavy on capacitor drain other than neuts and MWDs that you can viably fit on a Pilgrim...
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.07 04:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: Madla Mafia I say remove the latest nos nerf from the Pilgrim and have you gain cap from your target no matter the levels of cap you two have. I'd like this for the Curse too, but that might be too much. Risk for being overpowered, and removing the restriction from just one or two ships is a little... well... Add capacitor instead, I say, so it gets to use its Neuts and other more cap-draining modules more. Not that there are that many modules heavy on capacitor drain other than neuts and MWDs that you can viably fit on a Pilgrim... Armor reps? I'm also pretty sure that reverting the Nos nerf on the pilgrim would be dumb, although, feh, I guess it could work. It'd certainly be a hell of a boost if nothing else. @ susceptability to missile boats: Uh... the pilgrim will always be vulnerable to missile boats imho. It's a capless, tracking-independent weapon system with good range and high alpha to shoot drones - the kind of thing that will give a pilgrim trouble unless you drastically change the way the ship works. In return, you get to fit 2x TD and lol hard at any single person with guns who deigns to try to hit you. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.07 04:12:00 - [21] who said you had to use the neuts? -
AmmoniaisNH3	Posted - 2008.10.07 04:29:00 - [22] who uses neuts on a pilgrim? 3x Heavy Pulse II/ COCD MWD/web/point/med battery/LSE 3x HSII, coproc, cpr around 400 dps, 20+km with scorch
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.07 11:54:00 - [23] The armor lost on the ship is not as bad as the low capacitor. Max cap skills and I cap out up to six times in some longer jumps between gates. Now, guess what effect this has when I'm trying to neut someone. Arbitrator and Curse have same issues, the whole hull need a major +cap bonus. Apart from that I'm pretty happy with the ships, they got their weaknesses and strengths.
Christina Bamar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.10.07 11:58:00 - [24] Let the speed changes go through, I'm betting the pilgrim will end up being much more effective after the patch.
Madla Mafia Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.08 19:49:00 - [25] A huge cap boost would be very well along the road to fix these ships. I approve! ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Julio Torres Phantom Squad	Posted - 2008.10.09 12:32:00 - [26] All Recon's have a e-war special ability. The Pilgrim's is NOT nos/neut. Its Tracking Disruptors! For the Pilgrim to be inline with the rest, it would have to lose a Bonus to get another one.
Brother Welcome Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.09 12:59:00 - [27] Edited by: Brother Welcome on 09/10/2008 13:02:12 Edited by: Brother Welcome on 09/10/2008 13:00:42 Originally by: Aleus Stygian Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 06/10/2008 20:44:20Firstly, give the Pilgrim back those 200 points of armor that were removed for no reason whatsoever. Then, give it back some disabling ability and survivability by adding just a teensy few points to its cap. And then we can all just hold our thumbs and hope for medium drone damage implants. I do not want to see another one of these *****ed 'Pilgrim needs more range' threads. It's pretty damn transparent that all you want is to get to the optimal range to use tracking disruptors and burn around your foes at just inside warp scram range. Agreed. We have to accept missiles are a bad thing, and drone-boats also pretty bad. TDs are limited. Neuts are limited. My wish list (not aimed at making it an uber-pwn-mobile) in order of desire. 1) Give say 10 points more drone control bits to give Pilgrim more versatility in load outs. 2) Give back 200 armour. 3) Give 10-20% more cap. 4) As an alternative to extra armour and cap, give Pilgrim a 5% per recon level bonus to med neut activation cost and grid weight. Is 4) too much? BTW the 'Pilgrim already has E-war bonuses' argument is risible. I'd say any bonus to TDs is worth about half every other race's bonuses, on the grounds TDs do not affect* at least half the ships in the game. -vk
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.09 13:01:00 - [28] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/10/2008 13:01:42 I'm most in favour of giving the Pilgrim extra cap / armour / fittings really. Giving it range bonuses (and therefore making it a cloaking curse) is just bad tbh. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Brother Welcome Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.09 13:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/10/2008 13:01:42 I'm most in favour of giving the Pilgrim extra cap / armour / fittings really. Giving it range bonuses (and therefore making it a cloaking curse) is just bad tbh. Agreed, and I share such a desire not just to see it as cloaky curse. Give Pilgrim a 5% per recon level bonus to med neut activation cost and grid weight. Solves the other problems. Though I would love a touch more dronage control bits. -vk
SirDanceAlot	Posted - 2008.10.29 06:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/10/2008 13:01:42 I'm most in favour of giving the Pilgrim extra cap / armour / fittings really. Giving it range bonuses (and therefore making it a cloaking curse) is just bad tbh. Well no one seems to think a cloaking rook, lachesis and huginn is a bad/imbalanced idea. How funny that everyone seems to think that when it comes to amarr ships.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.29 06:56:00 - [31] Originally by: SirDanceAlot Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/10/2008 13:01:42 I'm most in favour of giving the Pilgrim extra cap / armour / fittings really. Giving it range bonuses (and therefore making it a cloaking curse) is just bad tbh. Well no one seems to think a cloaking rook, lachesis and huginn is a bad/imbalanced idea. How funny that everyone seems to think that when it comes to amarr ships. cloaking rook = falcon and have you been on the forums at all nobody cares about the arazu because apparently both gallente recons are trash and nobody complains about the rapier because it actually has to commit to a fight (it has no way of keeping itself from being locked and fired upon) __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Tefkros The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.10.29 07:14:00 - [32] Edited by: Tefkros on 29/10/2008 07:14:55 EvE-O forum logic : If something can avoid being webbed and can disengage at will, it¦s a nanonoob***goship and must be nerfed. If something must fight in web range, then it sucks and must be fixed. (Deimos, anynone?) Make up your damn minds. Wah wah complain that Pilgrim kills only cruises and noobs, but the Rapier that webs from 40km away, the Arazu that scrams, the Falcon that jams, can kill WHAT EXACTLY? PS. I fly both Rapiers and Pilgrims
SirDanceAlot	Posted - 2008.10.29 09:57:00 - [33] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: SirDanceAlot Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/10/2008 13:01:42 I'm most in favour of giving the Pilgrim extra cap / armour / fittings really. Giving it range bonuses (and therefore making it a cloaking curse) is just bad tbh. Well no one seems to think a cloaking rook, lachesis and huginn is a bad/imbalanced idea. How funny that everyone seems to think that when it comes to amarr ships. cloaking rook = falcon and have you been on the forums at all nobody cares about the arazu because apparently both gallente recons are trash and nobody complains about the rapier because it actually has to commit to a fight (it has no way of keeping itself from being locked and fired upon) Rapier commit? What exactly can't a rapier escape from with its dual webs? Rapier is the very definition of not commiting to fights.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.29 09:59:00 - [34] Originally by: SirDanceAlot Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: SirDanceAlot Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/10/2008 13:01:42 I'm most in favour of giving the Pilgrim extra cap / armour / fittings really. Giving it range bonuses (and therefore making it a cloaking curse) is just bad tbh. Well no one seems to think a cloaking rook, lachesis and huginn is a bad/imbalanced idea. How funny that everyone seems to think that when it comes to amarr ships. cloaking rook = falcon and have you been on the forums at all nobody cares about the arazu because apparently both gallente recons are trash and nobody complains about the rapier because it actually has to commit to a fight (it has no way of keeping itself from being locked and fired upon) Rapier commit? What exactly can't a rapier escape from with its dual webs? Rapier is the very definition of not commiting to fights. Well, at least you can lock and shoot a rapier, and if it can point you you can point it too. It's definitely the recon ship I least mind seeing if I'm not in a nanoship, but then again if I'm not in a nanoship I'm probably in a pulse boat at which point I can shoot it anyway :P __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Plave Okice Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.10.29 10:06:00 - [35] I'd be happy to see the Pilgrims stats boosted a little but god don't take away it's neut bonus and it has no need of a range bonus. Having been playing on sisi with the Pilgrim quite a lot I'm more than happy with how it will fare post patch, it's one of the few ships in Eve with a quite unique role and making it a cloaking curse would be a waste and would destroy the usefulness of the Curse. I wouldn't complain about some more cap and armour of course but rather than change the ship, change the way you fly it, it's an awesome solo boat.
Serafina Palacios Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.29 11:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Plave Okice I'd be happy to see the Pilgrims stats boosted a little but god don't take away it's neut bonus and it has no need of a range bonus. Having been playing on sisi with the Pilgrim quite a lot I'm more than happy with how it will fare post patch, it's one of the few ships in Eve with a quite unique role and making it a cloaking curse would be a waste and would destroy the usefulness of the Curse. I wouldn't complain about some more cap and armour of course but rather than change the ship, change the way you fly it, it's an awesome solo boat. /agree. I like the pilgrim there is no other force recon that gives a greater O **** reaction when it decloaks beside you. (falcon can't kill anything and somehow they don't scare me) but a bit cap! would surely help and some armour to as the only way to survive is with a armour tank but a bit more buffer wouldn't hurt. but still it is the only force recon who i see killing turret based bs. -----SIG----- Serafina Palacios former Major in the Republic cadre. now wanted for treason, teft of carde ships and documents and murder of cadre personnel.
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.29 12:14:00 - [37] I dont want a range bonus; a bit more armour hp or resist and having its cap back would be nice. Remember this is a cap warfare ship, yet it sucks with cap, mainly because of neuts.
Johann Jeneau Gallente Cricas Portuguese Korp	Posted - 2008.10.29 15:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Depp Knight I dont want a range bonus; a bit more armour hp or resist and having its cap back would be nice. Remember this is a cap warfare ship, yet it sucks with cap, mainly because of neuts. This. More Armour HP/Resist, more cap and more pg/cpu, at least cpu, i want to fit a recon probe launcher with recon lv.5 without having to fit faction mods or/and cpu implants, or a stupid fit please I like my steaks bloody as hell
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.10.29 16:10:00 - [39] wow 2nd page and i made it in before a dumb merin "pilgrim's role as a cov ops hauler is just fine" post! ...although i guess blockade runners have that role taken now, don't they...
Bunny Trader	Posted - 2008.10.29 16:56:00 - [40] Originally by: Johnny Ringo Wouldn't it be more consistent, and make the Pilgrim more useable, if the neut amount bonus on the Pilgrim were replaced with a neut range bonus? Go and die in a fire (in game). The last thing the Pilgrim needs is its ammount bonus nerfed. I'd much rather nerf the TD bonus than the ammount bonus, because in the end, all you get for sacrificing the ammount bonus is a Sentinel with a cloak, or a BS with a Large Neut and a cloak.
Bazman Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.10.29 17:07:00 - [41] When the speed changes come through, you will find that the Pilgrim becomes one of the better cloaked gankers in the game. All it needs is oppertunity which will be more plentiful come the speed change :P -----
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2008.10.29 17:08:00 - [42] Originally by: Terianna Eri @ susceptability to missile boats: Uh... the pilgrim will always be vulnerable to missile boats imho. It's a capless, tracking-independent weapon system with good range and high alpha to shoot drones - the kind of thing that will give a pilgrim trouble unless you drastically change the way the ship works. In return, you get to fit 2x TD and lol hard at any single person with guns who deigns to try to hit you. Yeah, you Amarr just take the missiles at close range up the ars . . . And while doing that you can laugh hard at any single turret ship because we know that only Caldari should have extreme range and ew that that can remove multiple ships of all types from a fight, and thus be practically invunerable and not have to fly in the thick of a fight like all the other recons.
Updyke Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.29 19:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Plave Okice I wouldn't complain about some more cap and armour of course but rather than change the ship, change the way you fly it, it's an awesome solo boat. ^ this. Pilgrim is a short range boat, iso giving it same range as curse, either boost armour or dps (MOAR DRONE BONII!!!) kthxbye. [PS: Pilgrim is definitely in dire need of a boost. Takes forever to kill anything, which isn't good if you're flying solo and have to gtfo before the victim's friends arrive.]

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