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GM Homonoia
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
445
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Posted - 2012.03.30 15:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
My Neutral Toon wrote:You can still get away from them if you move fast enough and dont stop moving.
But you have to be really fast, destroyer hull or below. Otherwise you probably wont make it.
Note that it is also a (seperate) exploit to avoid being destroyed by CONCORD in high sec when you gain a GCC
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
449
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Posted - 2012.03.30 15:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
PriorofDeath wrote:"it is considered an exploit to attack a target after you warp away from the grid where you gained that GCC"
so stay on grid and boomerange? Still WIN.
Gridfoo you ninjas
We are looking into how far this can be stretched. Even if you think you have found a loop hole, do not use it without asking a GM for clarification. Doing so anyway could still result in repercussions.
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
449
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Posted - 2012.03.30 15:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Karbox Delacroix wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:My Neutral Toon wrote:You can still get away from them if you move fast enough and dont stop moving.
But you have to be really fast, destroyer hull or below. Otherwise you probably wont make it. Note that it is also a (seperate) exploit to avoid being destroyed by CONCORD in high sec when you gain a GCC Say I am in 0.5 system with an ice belt. I then gank a Mackinaw with no tank. Am I allowed to warp to the sun and sit there so that Concord spawns and kills me at the sun instead of the belt? I will still have died and I will not have avoided GCC.
Yes, if you do not kill anyone else after warping. Note that a software fix will be put into place that may or may not be more or less strict.
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
449
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Posted - 2012.03.30 15:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
PriorofDeath wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:PriorofDeath wrote:Gridfoo you ninjas Avoiding the spirit of the law by trying to use the letter of the law, will probably not be looked upon kindly. The spirit of the law means nothing. The Rules state "warp off grid", so until CCP alters this statement I see no clear proof of law stating that a ban is justifiable for this act of violence.
This is incorrect, we act on the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. Tread that line at your own risk.
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
449
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Posted - 2012.03.30 15:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Comy 1 wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:PriorofDeath wrote:"it is considered an exploit to attack a target after you warp away from the grid where you gained that GCC"
so stay on grid and boomerange? Still WIN.
Gridfoo you ninjas We are looking into how far this can be stretched. Even if you think you have found a loop hole, do not use it without asking a GM for clarification. Doing so anyway could still result in repercussions. Is it considered an exploit to warp your ship away to a safespot after agressing and once there die without attacking someone else. The point of this being dying without giving anyone player to shoot at me and scoop the loot from my wreck without probing me.
For now this is not an exploit, but this may change in the (near) future.
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
452
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Posted - 2012.03.30 15:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
gfldex wrote:The CCP Award for Loose Wording goes to Lead GM Grimmi! You may want to update it and state that you have to lose your ship within 10 seconds after you gained a GCC in highsec. That wont leave any loopholes that require petitioning.
I know one way to avoid CONCORD that would not fit the wording of that news item. (Not gonna tell you, ofc.)
As said earlier, it is always considered an exploit to avoid CONCORD. As for the loose wording, what you stated would invalidate some (currently) legal tactics and we do not want to limit our players any further than we have to.
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
461
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Posted - 2012.03.30 16:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
We adjusted the wording slightly to make it less ambiguous. See the full text here:
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp
I also have to restate that we value the spirit of the law over the letter of the law. Also avoiding CONCORD in any way is simply not allowed, attempts to find loopholes in the wording will not fly.
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
464
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Posted - 2012.03.30 16:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:We adjusted the wording slightly to make it less ambiguous. See the full text here: http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4972&tid=1I also have to restate that we value the spirit of the law over the letter of the law. Also avoiding CONCORD in any way is simply not allowed, attempts to find loopholes in the wording will not fly. Ok. I've read the link. Here's a copypasta of the relevant section: Quote:GÇÿIf you gain a Global Criminal Countdown by committing an illegal action in high security space, it is considered an exploit to attack a target after you warp away from the grid where you gained that GCC, even if you later return to that grid while still affected by that GCC. Riddle me this: Bob kills a mackinaw at an ice belt. Concord arrives. Bob warps to a point 150k away on the same grid. He is still on grid, concord is still on grid, he never left grid. Concord moves to intercept him, on grid. He warps to another on-grid bounce, because his ship has inertial stabs to align fast. He warps (still on the same grid) to another mackinaw, and pops it. Repeat. Bob has been on grid the entire time. In this way, in a .5 or .6 system, it is possible to kill many mackinaws without leaving grid before finally succumbing to concord. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say this violates the "spirit of the law". Perhaps you should change the law as follows: After obtaining GCC and killing someone, it is mandatory for a player to offline all modules, bring their ship to a complete stop, and assume the position.I think this would get rid of any and all ambiguity. Edit: The above requires no special 'gridfoo', it only requires the grid to be greater than 150k. Most icebelts have grid larger than 300k.
We changed the wording to take that into account
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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GM Homonoia
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
466
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Posted - 2012.03.30 16:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:GM Homonoia wrote:
This is incorrect, we act on the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. Tread that line at your own risk.
This means specific indicidents can be arbitrarily acted upon by different GMs. This is Not Good.
I understand that some people may not like a GM having the right to make a judgement call, but this is something that is also necessary. No set of rules can be held up by the letter of the law. Once you only use the letter of the law you have only 2 options:
1. Accept that people who want to be bad (the people that these laws are here to stop) will always find a loophole to get to the people they want to be bad to (the people these laws are designed to protect); thereby making any system of (social) rules ineffective. The limitations of the human languages simply do not let you define all possible situations; this is why everyone is always expected to act responsibly according to the spirit of the law. To find the balance between sticking to the rules and bending them to innovate is the type of balance that you learn to seek out when you grow up as a kid and get into scrapes on the school yard.
2. OR you can set up the rules so strictly and in such a limiting manner that emergent behavior and any form of innovation becomes completely impossible. We could easily fix this by simply making it impossible to attack anyone in high sec ever, no exceptions. This is a situation no one wants.
In other words, making judgement calls will always be part of running a sandbox game. Making sure that a GM is capable of doing this properly is a very important part of our hiring, training and auditing process. This is also why escalation of a support ticket is always a possibility (from non-senior to senior) and why peer review is a very important part of our operating procedures.
Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master |
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