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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
469
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Posted - 2012.03.31 20:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote: While your statement is solidly grounded in theory, it is not backed up by reality. A quick look at forum threads, QEN data, and market history (if you happen to have a private history that goes back far enough) will confirm that even when NPC's sold shuttles there were plenty of people mining low end roids. As mineral prices approached the levels where NPC shuttles could be refined, people did not switch away from mining low ends, even though just a few people could sustain the entire EVE economy at those prices.
Do you have the numbers of people that did stop and move to something else? Or those that never started? Or perhaps that that switched from veld to scordite, to pyro, kernite omber and plag? No? Didn't think so. |
Zircon Dasher
106
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Posted - 2012.03.31 21:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote: While your statement is solidly grounded in theory, it is not backed up by reality. A quick look at forum threads, QEN data, and market history (if you happen to have a private history that goes back far enough) will confirm that even when NPC's sold shuttles there were plenty of people mining low end roids. As mineral prices approached the levels where NPC shuttles could be refined, people did not switch away from mining low ends, even though just a few people could sustain the entire EVE economy at those prices.
Do you have the numbers of people that did stop and move to something else? Or those that never started? Or perhaps that that switched from veld to scordite, to pyro, kernite omber and plag? No? Didn't think so.
For all intents and purposes you do not need to have those numbers. Veld and trit consistantly hung out below the prices that would have kicked shuttle reproc into action. Meaning, theoretically, that there was more supply than demand.
If veldspar ceased to be sold, mining vessle volumes dropped significantly, or some other things had taken place, your objection would be meaningful. Unfortunately, these things did not happen. So, again, people were still mining veld in large enough quantities to keep prices below NPC shuttle reproc costs.
All this is meant to point out is that opportunity cost, described in isk/hr, is not a very accurate way of determining player behavior. To further complicate issues, since you can run multiple accounts, a "miner" does not have to become a mission runner/ratter/etc and further contribute to ISK generation. A player, who runs both characters, may simply chose to unsub the mining account. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
115
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Posted - 2012.03.31 22:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
You're kind of backwards on all of that with NPC shuttles, you know. Yes, people still mined low end roids. The shuttles were the reason why trit never went over 3.6 per unit, however.
It's the same deal here, someone may still mine dark ochre or whatever else is a nocx bearing ore, but without pax amarria being nerfed, it's never going to go over 530ish or so again. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
469
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Posted - 2012.03.31 22:11:00 -
[34] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote: Do you have the numbers of people that did stop and move to something else? Or those that never started? Or perhaps that that switched from veld to scordite, to pyro, kernite omber and plag? No? Didn't think so.
For all intents and purposes you do not need to have those numbers. Veld and trit consistantly hung out below the prices that would have kicked shuttle reproc into action. Meaning, theoretically, that there was more supply than demand. If veldspar ceased to be sold, mining vessle volumes dropped significantly, or some other things had taken place, your objection would be meaningful. Unfortunately, these things did not happen. So, again, people were still mining veld in large enough quantities to keep prices below NPC shuttle reproc costs. All this is meant to point out is that opportunity cost, described in isk/hr, is not a very accurate way of determining player behavior. To further complicate issues, since you can run multiple accounts, a "miner" does not have to become a mission runner/ratter/etc and further contribute to ISK generation. A player, who runs both characters, may simply chose to unsub the mining account.
Yes, below NPC cost. It is when reproc of shuttles became profitable that the issue was apparent. No one is going to reproc shuttles when trit is at .80, which if you recall wasn't too uncommon many years ago.
And yes, mining scales across a lot of accounts rather well, it does not scale as well across a number of players since they all want to be paid. Slaves cost nothing but food, or in this case, paid account time, the same base cost as a solo player. All those extra mining accounts were not out shooting rats, they were adding to the overall productive capacity. You are attempting to equate one player with one account, this does not work and just goes to prove my point.
The reason mining scales this way is because it is so god awful boring, which is a different subject. |
Zircon Dasher
106
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Posted - 2012.04.01 01:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote: Do you have the numbers of people that did stop and move to something else? Or those that never started? Or perhaps that that switched from veld to scordite, to pyro, kernite omber and plag? No? Didn't think so.
For all intents and purposes you do not need to have those numbers. Veld and trit consistantly hung out below the prices that would have kicked shuttle reproc into action. Meaning, theoretically, that there was more supply than demand. If veldspar ceased to be sold, mining vessle volumes dropped significantly, or some other things had taken place, your objection would be meaningful. Unfortunately, these things did not happen. So, again, people were still mining veld in large enough quantities to keep prices below NPC shuttle reproc costs. All this is meant to point out is that opportunity cost, described in isk/hr, is not a very accurate way of determining player behavior. To further complicate issues, since you can run multiple accounts, a "miner" does not have to become a mission runner/ratter/etc and further contribute to ISK generation. A player, who runs both characters, may simply chose to unsub the mining account. Yes, below NPC cost. It is when reproc of shuttles became profitable that the issue was apparent. No one is going to reproc shuttles when trit is at .80, which if you recall wasn't too uncommon many years ago. And yes, mining scales across a lot of accounts rather well, it does not scale as well across a number of players since they all want to be paid. Slaves cost nothing but food, or in this case, paid account time, the same base cost as a solo player. All those extra mining accounts were not out shooting rats, they were adding to the overall productive capacity. You are attempting to equate one player with one account, this does not work and just goes to prove my point. The reason mining scales this way is because it is so god awful boring, which is a different subject.
I dont have much time so will put things in bullet points. This is merely for expediency.
1) I specifically did not equate 1 player with 1 account. Please reread. 2) You said that if price does not rise then people will switch to shooting rats. History shows this is not true. 3) When shuttles were removed from NPC sales it was based upon a genuine supply vs. demand issue (capital changes iirc). SInce current price spikes are linked heavily to something that has not happened, speculation seems to be a large driver. That is not to say there is not an increase in demand overall, but this was not an issue prior to the drone region announcement. Basket prices and all that..... 4) Since you relied heavily upon opportunity cost as a reason for mineral caps being ISK inflationary, I felt obligated to say that isk is a pretty innacurate way of predicting behavior. Mining is particularly bad because of the boring nature, scalability and general lack of attention being required. Moreover, I would posit that an increase in CPI will drive more ISK faucet suckling. I can get into more detail if you wish at a later point.
I should be clear by saying I am all for removing artificial caps in theory. I am also all for increasing mining payouts. Just not sure an artificial cap is game breaking at this moment in time.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
469
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Posted - 2012.04.01 02:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
1) "To further complicate issues, since you can run multiple accounts, a "miner" does not have to become a mission runner/ratter/etc and further contribute to ISK generation. A player, who runs both characters, may simply chose to unsub the mining account."
Is there some magic here where one player running multiple accounts turns into two players running those same accounts when they stop mining? So what's the one account go do when the other is dropped? Is he still mining or doing something else?
2) Please show me your data. Or perhaps we can examine the countless threads of players on these forums over the past few years talking about how mining isn't worth the time.
3) Circular reasoning. Think carefully about what you wrote.
4) I offerd the idea that some people will choose not to mine if the time and effort are not worth the reward compared to to other activities, one of those activities could be shooting rats. It is the simplest to enter and has one of the lowest cost barriers in the game, it is the most likely canidate. If my having neglected to describe the path of least restiance is somehow objectionable, consider it described. |
Ronja Mistysdottir
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.04.01 10:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
Maybe we could have NPC's start selling battleships / dreads and carriers as well at a fixed price of 2 x base-price, like the books are? That will be a nice ISK drain.
I am sure miners will still mine |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
397
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Posted - 2012.04.01 12:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
As of this DT, ccp removed the npc sell orders.
Get ready to cash in on all your nocx! Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Comy 1
Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
98
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Posted - 2012.04.01 12:19:00 -
[39] - Quote
TIME TO ENTER PANIC MODE |
Driftfire
Northern Star Enterprises
2
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Posted - 2012.04.01 12:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
Between The Forge (Jita) and Domain it looks like 91mil unites of Pax Amarr were brought.
This gives 547 Mil nocx.
I guess I bunch of this has already been dropped.
Long-term Jita volume ~100mil unites nocx/day. ( I assume this is buys & sells)
So have fun peeps....
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Una Achura
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.04.01 12:48:00 -
[41] - Quote
Riley Moore wrote:As of this DT, ccp removed the npc sell orders.
Get ready to cash in on all your nocx!
Damn, I was too late to remove my 599 p/u sell order. Prices at 600 when I logged in. Better reproc my pax amarrias fast. |
Mookie Quantico
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2012.04.01 13:12:00 -
[42] - Quote
ONOES..... feel the breeze of the Almighty Nerf Bat as it swings over Jita....
Mook |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
914
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Posted - 2012.04.01 13:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mookie Quantico wrote:ONOES..... feel the breeze of the Almighty Nerf Bat as it swings over Jita.... Mook
hey Mook
thanks for signing your post, wasn't sure who made it!
Blawrf |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
914
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Posted - 2012.04.01 13:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
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Una Achura
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.04.01 13:21:00 -
[45] - Quote
800 and climbing. |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
397
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Posted - 2012.04.01 13:31:00 -
[46] - Quote
Una Achura wrote:800 and climbing.
I just emergency logged in to update my sell orders from 850 to 1600
THANK YOU FOR POSTING Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Maria Yumeno
Venomous Cloud Scorned Syndicate
1
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Posted - 2012.04.01 13:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
Riley Moore wrote:Una Achura wrote:800 and climbing. I just emergency logged in to update my sell orders from 850 to 1600 THANK YOU FOR POSTING
surprising the OP has a large amount of Nocx.
I was gonna do the same, but couldn;t mobilize enough isk fast enough |
Mookie Quantico
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2012.04.01 13:58:00 -
[48] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Mookie Quantico wrote:ONOES..... feel the breeze of the Almighty Nerf Bat as it swings over Jita.... Mook hey Mook thanks for signing your post, wasn't sure who made it! Blawrf
Blame it on a long and dubious career as a bureaucrat.
But if you come over here, I'l autograph your buttocks... SHARPIE marker okay with you?
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK
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Driftfire
Northern Star Enterprises
2
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Posted - 2012.04.01 16:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
So I guess Pax Amarr is now going to be the tool of min buy volume scams.... |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
333
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Posted - 2012.04.01 17:37:00 -
[50] - Quote
Stealth Minmitar win!
The holy book of their enemies, withdrawn from sale! FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
969
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Posted - 2012.04.01 18:13:00 -
[51] - Quote
Nex apparatu5 wrote:Why would you post this rather than profiting from the information yourself?
You're surprised there are people playing this game disgusted by some other players ability to exploit each and every failure in the game ?
Yeah I know what you think, I also know there aren't that much with a real pair of balls to do what he just did: spit those right in the face.
Props OP |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
397
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Posted - 2012.04.01 18:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Nex apparatu5 wrote:Why would you post this rather than profiting from the information yourself? You're surprised there are people playing this game disgusted by some other players ability to exploit each and every failure in the game? -CCP new this, as I know they will never take away from the game the isk earned by this exploit because it's done once again, by older players just good to wine and exploit. -100 CCP, you sucked hard on this one and dare to tell us there is too much isk in the game. Start doing things right. Props OP
No offence, but with pax removed, I'm a lot richer. So are my investors.
CCP didn't know about this, if they did it'd been removed already. Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Alta Hibra
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.04.01 18:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
I purchased nox at 550 when the price cap was still in place, and now I'm making a killing \o/. |
Skye Aurorae
No Bull Ships
229
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Posted - 2012.04.01 18:39:00 -
[54] - Quote
The people who sold you that are still making a killing. Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21, so..
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Herman Klaus
Touched By Klaus
44
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Posted - 2012.04.01 21:51:00 -
[55] - Quote
I totally missed all of this.
*Activates Self Destruct* |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
74
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Posted - 2012.04.01 22:03:00 -
[56] - Quote
snip Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Mr Blue
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
23
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Posted - 2012.04.01 22:10:00 -
[57] - Quote
made 3-4b on the whole nocx thing.....guess I will regret selling my entier stick at 790 if prices goes up again, and I didnt catch the peak but well...Im happy with 40% markup. |
Nirnias Stirrum
Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
52
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Posted - 2012.04.02 12:08:00 -
[58] - Quote
Should not of sold so early, prices are gunna spike again after the 24th
invested 5bil into this, hoping to make a profit of 5bil! roll on the 24th! |
Meno Theaetetus
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
40
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Posted - 2012.04.02 13:49:00 -
[59] - Quote
Why would you cash out prior to the drone nerf, I bought in on this for around 25bn worth of Nocx, mainly as a way to convert liquid isk into assets during times of sky high inflation. With the drone region nerf around the corner it will stay invested till then. |
Driftfire
Northern Star Enterprises
2
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Posted - 2012.04.03 12:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
Pax Amarria is back in print, now using an optimized production process!
( I assume no or minimal mineral value) - looks like 3 trit.
If that becomes a fawcet then the economy is really in a mess. ( I wolnder if they said that with the old values...) |
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