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How to Shoot Unsuspecting High Sec Mission Runners

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Keren Dahl	Posted - 2008.10.09 00:49:00 - [1] Edited by: Keren Dahl on 09/10/2008 00:50:39 Do I understand this right? If I ninja salvage someone, they shoot and then dock up... I can prolong our flags by shooting cans -- And they won't see it anymore? Their flag ticks away -- But they're still fair game?
Morgon Borga Caldari The Photon Raiders	Posted - 2008.10.09 00:59:00 - [2] I seriously doubt that would work and even if it did I can imagine it to be an exploit.
Orbit Uranus	Posted - 2008.10.09 01:17:00 - [3] thats sounds like a works as intended to me
madthepopo Skill Level Six Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.09 01:34:00 - [4] shooting someone elses cans will get you concorded
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.10.09 01:43:00 - [5] Originally by: madthepopo shooting someone elses cans will get you concorded re-read, i think he's asking IF he gets shot at by the mission runner if he can shoot their can i might just try this . . . . . . Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Morgon Borga Caldari The Photon Raiders	Posted - 2008.10.09 02:02:00 - [6] OP is basically asking if he can cause a hidden timer situation for the mission runner. I don't see this working since mission runner will have attacked a red flashy pilot for stealing loot.
Buyus Stuffius	Posted - 2008.10.09 02:49:00 - [7] OP sounds to me to be a mad mission runner who had this done to him, but now knows the trick. well here ya go folks, ill just say it. YES this works. now, will it make it 'hidden' the answer is usually no. as i have understood it, if they end the session by changing ships, then they may not get an updated timer anymore, but the other player will. what a GOOD greifer woiuld do is wait until about 10 seconds left to shoot the can. any agressive action will work, so a web is best in my book. the other guys timer doesnt update right away usually, contingent upon lag usually. even for you it will take several seconds or up to 30 seconds to see the timer reset. most people who shoot you and then dock will wait until the timer dissapears or very close to it and undock warp right back to the mission. then mid warp they may see it reknew... and hopefully if your there, meet their maker. as far as i have ever heard from ccp via multiple complaints people have filed against me, im left to assume its a LEGIT TACTIC because i havent been suspended or even warned over it. think about it, you whiney, dense little carebears. its YOUR property and we only have the right to shoot it because you shot us. you could have say...NOT shot? revolutionary. know what happens to people who dont shoot me? i dont kill them.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.09 02:59:00 - [8] Your not the person wich Golem i just ganked right? *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.10.09 03:05:00 - [9] Originally by: Buyus Stuffius the other guys timer doesnt update right away usually, contingent upon lag usually. even for you it will take several seconds or up to 30 seconds to see the timer reset So, here you admit to using lag to avoid the normal game mechanics that would give the other player the correct warning? And you don't consider that to be an exploit?
fityone cents Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.09 03:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Buyus Stuffius the other guys timer doesnt update right away usually, contingent upon lag usually. even for you it will take several seconds or up to 30 seconds to see the timer reset So, here you admit to using lag to avoid the normal game mechanics that would give the other player the correct warning? And you don't consider that to be an exploit? It does not matter if he calls it chocolate pudding - If you think you have an exploit open a petition, the GM's and devs determine what is and is not acceptable game play.
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.10.09 04:21:00 - [11] Originally by: fityone cents It does not matter if he calls it chocolate pudding - If you think you have an exploit open a petition, the GM's and devs determine what is and is not acceptable game play. If I was ever in a position where this might have happened to me then I would definitely be petitioning it. That doesn't preclude me from stating my opinion though. In every case where there has been a similar mechanic (extending agro by shooting something that is not the player themselves) it's been deemed an exploit, why would this be any different? But go ahead, abuse this as much as possible, the more people that twist the intended game mechanics by utilising[1] a hole in the logic of the programming the sooner it will be deemed an exploit and fixed. [1] I avoided using the word exploit here even though it's the word that fits.
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2008.10.09 06:03:00 - [12] Quote: In every case where there has been a similar mechanic (extending agro by shooting something that is not the player themselves) it's been deemed an exploit, why would this be any different? D2 titan was killed this way and was not reimbursed in any way. It is a legal tactic which has been in game forever. In highsec the agro mechanic is there to allow you do do things, not prevent you. ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.10.09 06:18:00 - [13] Originally by: Lithalnas D2 titan was killed this way and was not reimbursed in any way. It is a legal tactic which has been in game forever. In highsec the agro mechanic is there to allow you do do things, not prevent you. No, it was not killed this way, try again.
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.10.09 06:24:00 - [14] Oh, and... Dev says it's an exploit
Keren Dahl	Posted - 2008.10.09 08:09:00 - [15] Edited by: Keren Dahl on 09/10/2008 08:09:38 Originally by: Buyus Stuffius OP sounds to me to be a mad mission runner who had this done to him, but now knows the trick. LOL -- You're very astute! ^_^ Wasn't done to me, but I was listening when it happened. And I was very surprised that it was tolerated. Originally by: Maglorre Oh, and... Dev says it's an exploit Good! That was what I was hoping to find. But I didn't know how far back it was. (And while I didn't think we should accept a "working as intended" -- ya never know, so homework never hurts?) Thank you! ^_^
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.09 08:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Keren Dahl Edited by: Keren Dahl on 09/10/2008 00:50:39 Do I understand this right? If I ninja salvage someone, they shoot and then dock up... I can prolong our flags by shooting cans -- And they won't see it anymore? Their flag ticks away -- But they're still fair game? Doing that is an exploit. --- I smack just for myself.
Keren Dahl	Posted - 2008.10.09 08:26:00 - [17] Originally by: Muad' Dib Doing that is an exploit. Maglorre posted the link above where one of the Devs said so, too (CCP Jiekon). But as you can see from other posters it's still being exploited. Foreknown is forearmed -- If it happens to you, it's good to know where to find the Dev's ruling.
CrouzillesX	Posted - 2008.10.09 09:41:00 - [18] Guys, sorry to bother you with this stupid question, but I am at a complete loss as to what you are talking about. Can anyone explain this to me in simple words? For a simple guy. :) Thank you
Sharina Mallis	Posted - 2008.10.09 10:35:00 - [19] Originally by: fityone cents Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Buyus Stuffius the other guys timer doesnt update right away usually, contingent upon lag usually. even for you it will take several seconds or up to 30 seconds to see the timer reset So, here you admit to using lag to avoid the normal game mechanics that would give the other player the correct warning? And you don't consider that to be an exploit? It does not matter if he calls it chocolate pudding - If you think you have an exploit open a petition, the GM's and devs determine what is and is not acceptable game play. Since when is lag an exploid . I call it very annoying at the least!
Starnap	Posted - 2008.10.09 11:42:00 - [20] mmm... that dev comment is about abusing the logoff timer - and though the method is the same it seems to me the exploitative quality is quite different.
Scrutt5 Snuff inc	Posted - 2008.10.09 11:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Keren Dahl Edited by: Keren Dahl on 09/10/2008 00:50:39 Do I understand this right? If I ninja salvage someone, they shoot and then dock up... I can prolong our flags by shooting cans -- And they won't see it anymore? Their flag ticks away -- But they're still fair game? Salvaging does not cause aggro.. you ninja salvage you cant be shot at.
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.10.09 12:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Starnap mmm... that dev comment is about abusing the logoff timer - and though the method is the same it seems to me the exploitative quality is quite different. Originally by: CCP Jiekon If you are talking about shooting his containers or wrecks to cause agression, then no, it is not allowed. This is an exploit and it will be fixed ASAP. I see no mention there of logging off, simply of causing aggression, whcih is exactly what this thread is about.
Orar Ironfist Digital assassins	Posted - 2008.10.09 13:23:00 - [23] Originally by: CrouzillesX Guys, sorry to bother you with this stupid question, but I am at a complete loss as to what you are talking about. Can anyone explain this to me in simple words? For a simple guy. :) Thank you They are talking about getting people who are doing missions to stupidly flag themselves through aggression timers and baiting in order for the player to kill the missioner.
Keren Dahl	Posted - 2008.10.09 13:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Scrutt5 Salvaging does not cause aggro.. you ninja salvage you cant be shot at. True -- I meant if you loot while ninja salvaging. Some people do that specifically to goad the mission runners into shooting.
Doctor Remulak	Posted - 2008.10.09 14:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Lithalnas D2 titan was killed this way and was not reimbursed in any way. It is a legal tactic which has been in game forever. In highsec the agro mechanic is there to allow you do do things, not prevent you. How did a titan get into highsec?
Velocity Prime Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.09 17:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Keren Dahl Originally by: Scrutt5 Salvaging does not cause aggro.. you ninja salvage you cant be shot at. True -- I meant if you loot while ninja salvaging. Some people do that specifically to goad the mission runners into shooting. That's preposterous! Nobody does that! We're Recruiting!
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2008.10.09 19:52:00 - [27] Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Lithalnas D2 titan was killed this way and was not reimbursed in any way. It is a legal tactic which has been in game forever. In highsec the agro mechanic is there to allow you do do things, not prevent you. No, it was not killed this way, try again. actually it was the way it went down, the titan's agro timer expired, pilot goes to log off and a covert ops smart bombs him to get aggro moments before he is gone. Agro is used to extend the time in which people can shoot at him. ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Sir SmellyFart	Posted - 2008.10.09 20:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Buyus Stuffius OP sounds to me to be a mad mission runner who had this done to him, but now knows the trick. well here ya go folks, ill just say it. YES this works. now, will it make it 'hidden' the answer is usually no. as i have understood it, if they end the session by changing ships, then they may not get an updated timer anymore, but the other player will. what a GOOD greifer woiuld do is wait until about 10 seconds left to shoot the can. any agressive action will work, so a web is best in my book. the other guys timer doesnt update right away usually, contingent upon lag usually. even for you it will take several seconds or up to 30 seconds to see the timer reset. most people who shoot you and then dock will wait until the timer dissapears or very close to it and undock warp right back to the mission. then mid warp they may see it reknew... and hopefully if your there, meet their maker. as far as i have ever heard from ccp via multiple complaints people have filed against me, im left to assume its a LEGIT TACTIC because i havent been suspended or even warned over it. Exactly what happened to a corpy of mine, timer came back when he was already in warp.
achoura	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:57:00 - [29] Originally by: Buyus Stuffius OP sounds to me to be a mad mission runner who had this done to him, but now knows the trick. well here ya go folks, ill just say it. YES this works. now, will it make it 'hidden' the answer is usually no. as i have understood it, if they end the session by changing ships, then they may not get an updated timer anymore, but the other player will. what a GOOD greifer woiuld do is wait until about 10 seconds left to shoot the can. any agressive action will work, so a web is best in my book. the other guys timer doesnt update right away usually, contingent upon lag usually. even for you it will take several seconds or up to 30 seconds to see the timer reset. most people who shoot you and then dock will wait until the timer dissapears or very close to it and undock warp right back to the mission. then mid warp they may see it reknew... and hopefully if your there, meet their maker. as far as i have ever heard from ccp via multiple complaints people have filed against me, im left to assume its a LEGIT TACTIC because i havent been suspended or even warned over it. think about it, you whiney, dense little carebears. its YOUR property and we only have the right to shoot it because you shot us. you could have say...NOT shot? revolutionary. know what happens to people who dont shoot me? i dont kill them. Just because one gm running the script passed it doesn't mean it's not purposely exploiting the games mechanical weakness to gain an advantage over another player which it is, if you've gotten away with it after being complained about then you're a lucky soab I do have to agree with the retaliation though, if poeple think the only reason someone would take the time and effort to probe them down is to steal salvage, then they do deserver to pop. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Orar Ironfist They are talking about getting people who are doing missions to stupidly flag themselves through aggression timers and baiting in order for the player to kill the missioner. Not quite. We are discussing the practice of extending the aggression timer without the victim being aware of it by shooting at his wrecks.
Keren Dahl	Posted - 2008.10.10 14:59:00 - [31] Originally by: Maglorre Not quite. We are discussing the practice of extending the aggression timer without the victim being aware of it by shooting at his wrecks. Maglorre's correct. That was my main concern (other than that I couldn't get there to assist in the PVP, but that was my own fault / clone jump timer). I won't judge whether scanning down mission runners and ninja-salvaging is ethical... Since I run missions and sometimes probe scan people down for giggles (though I pretty much don't loot the cans -- where's the challenge in PVPing someone set up for PVE? ).
Buyus Stuffius	Posted - 2008.10.11 02:45:00 - [32] Edited by: Buyus Stuffius on 11/10/2008 02:46:13 Originally by: Keren Dahl Originally by: Maglorre Not quite. We are discussing the practice of extending the aggression timer without the victim being aware of it by shooting at his wrecks. Maglorre's correct. That was my main concern (other than that I couldn't get there to assist in the PVP, but that was my own fault / clone jump timer). I won't judge whether scanning down mission runners and ninja-salvaging is ethical... Since I run missions and sometimes probe scan people down for giggles (though I pretty much don't loot the cans -- where's the challenge in PVPing someone set up for PVE? ). the linked post was all about shooting pilot and cans BEFORE player logs off. this trick is done while the player is still logged on and it does not stop the player from dissapearing in space. two very different tricks. and its not about the challenge, its about one very simple thing. money....and lulz...and maybe more tears to fuel my ship. i still dont see any official word on this. even the other trick i would argue against being an exploit since its normally a low/null sec trick and is done well within game mechanics. if you want to be ure you cant be agressed before logging, log in your own space or know where everyone is in that system.
Moya81	Posted - 2008.10.11 08:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Keren Dahl Edited by: Keren Dahl on 09/10/2008 00:50:39 Do I understand this right? If I ninja salvage someone, they shoot and then dock up... I can prolong our flags by shooting cans -- And they won't see it anymore? Their flag ticks away -- But they're still fair game? The timer will be updated for both parties but it may take up to 30 secs time to update for the aggressor, depending on lag situation in the system this is taking place in.
Buyus Stuffius	Posted - 2008.10.11 21:26:00 - [34] for both, really. lag can make it take a lil, or it will happen right away. the best bet for the person trying to kill the mission runner is to do it when theres very little time left. also, if the person who is being hunted leaves system, it clears aggression...kind of. see, the hunter can keep attacking a wreak or can (until it dissipates of course) but they can ONLY attack the person in that system then, if the original aggression timer has run out. the person being hunted and leave and come back later and still be killed. i ought to be given some money for all this info. most people dont get the full intricacies of the aggression system like this.
Ryyn Echita	Posted - 2008.10.11 22:40:00 - [35] Originally by: Buyus Stuffius Edited by: Buyus Stuffius on 11/10/2008 02:46:13 the linked post was all about shooting pilot and cans BEFORE player logs off. this trick is done while the player is still logged on and it does not stop the player from dissapearing in space. two very different tricks. and its not about the challenge, its about one very simple thing. money....and lulz...and maybe more tears to fuel my ship. i still dont see any official word on this. even the other trick i would argue against being an exploit since its normally a low/null sec trick and is done well within game mechanics. if you want to be ure you cant be agressed before logging, log in your own space or know where everyone is in that system. ? Quote: Posted - 2007.02.17 13:43:00 - [11] If you are talking about shooting his containers or wrecks to cause agression, then no, it is not allowed. This is an exploit and it will be fixed ASAP. If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine. Seems pretty black and white to me. Shooting player is legit. Shooting anything else to prolong aggression, not so much. Sure you may try to argue the reference to logging out, however I highly doubt you will be able to support an arguement which states you can exploit(stated by a Dev) an aggression timer on a person logging out and doing to the same to a person docked or otherwise untouched is not the same thing.
Jeesa	Posted - 2008.10.12 14:40:00 - [36] CCP Jiekon: "If you are talking about shooting his containers or wrecks to cause agression, then no, it is not allowed. This is an exploit and it will be fixed ASAP." this is 1.5 years ago. If this is "ASAP", i cant imagine what it will be if he says "in the near future".

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