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Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.11 07:39:00 - [31] Originally by: Denuo Secus I'm looking forward to this changes. It's so stupid that fitting a MWD (with all it's drawbacks) is mandatory and if I undock in my assault ship today I could also self destruct immediately because as soon a webber hits me I'm dead - immediately. The announced changes don't only nerf nanos...they add so much diversity! Today's PvP seems colorless to me since I read about this planned speed changes! Today it's just: MWD+Web+Point+NanoMagic....Homer Simpson would say "boooring..." ^^ Just my 0.02 ISK MWD will be just as mandatory as it ever was. And you will see much fewer ships in action. This change brings less variety.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.11 12:44:00 - [32] Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Crackzilla Roamers have no guaranteed right to travel through 0.0 risk free. This. People should get used to that. They already are Then you won't have a problem with the nerf then if nothing is changing. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Coros Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.11 13:13:00 - [33] Ohh the bitter sweet nanotears ahahahahaha
s33ker Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.10.11 15:03:00 - [34] I just want to point out that Crackzilla and Rajere are completely correct in this thread. If you're about to post against the nerf, make sure you go to page 1 and read their posts.
Lokius Ahgamemnon	Posted - 2008.10.11 15:59:00 - [35] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Already happening, locus rigs are the new polys. Can't wait for the whines about uncounterable 150km Zealots and Muninns gangs... I just felt like pointing out your an idiot. Counter to snipers? Damps? Talk about a facepalm....
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2008.10.11 16:07:00 - [36] Originally by: Esmenet MWD will be just as mandatory as it ever was. Just...no. Some tactics will benefit by using AB instead of MWD (see my third point). Only reason I see for Mandatory Warp Drives is escaping bubbles and burning back to gates (a scout as dedicated fast ship can help here too in some cases). Granted - a MWD offers more tactical options. But having advantages by using no MWD is a very good step imo. This will lead to more variety. Originally by: Esmenet And you will see much fewer ships in action. ?? Originally by: Esmenet This change brings less variety. Can you explain this? I see more tactical options. Disabling MWD by scram. Using AB means to be invulnerable against that tactic and faster at the end. "Flying under enemy guns" will become possible with AB and weaker web. Real intercepting of MWDing ships will become possible. On the other side: using a MWD will become "less expensive" due to lesser MWD penalties. Today? Enemys web + smallish ship (< BC?) + non nano fitting -> dead -> everyone wants (needs) to nano... My point is, some dedicated ships (of every size) will still be very fast compared to other ships. But not every ship. Speed should be an option - not a necessity.
Roxana Coman	Posted - 2008.10.11 16:10:00 - [37] Edited by: Roxana Coman on 11/10/2008 16:10:22 I heard an idea I kinda like for fixing speed issues. Someone I was talking to said why not make speed have the affects on the structure of your ship kinda the way overheating has on your modules. That is, there is a "safe" speed that all ships could go. Once a ship goes past that speed, they start incurring damage to their structure. The farther you go over that "safe" speed, the more damage you take per a tick. Then make interceptors have a bonus to their ships per a skill level that negates that damage to their structures.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.11 16:12:00 - [38] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 11/10/2008 16:13:42 Originally by: Denuo Secus Can you explain this? I see more tactical options. Disabling MWD by scram. Using AB means to be invulnerable against that tactic and faster at the end. "Flying under enemy guns" will become possible with AB and weaker web. Real intercepting of MWDing ships will become possible. On the other side: using a MWD will become "less expensive" due to lesser MWD penalties. Today? Enemys web + smallish ship (< BC?) + non nano fitting -> dead -> everyone wants (needs) to nano... My point is, some dedicated ships (of every size) will still be very fast compared to other ships. But not every ship. Speed should be an option - not a necessity. Speed will be a necessity. you will still need MWD to burn into range, you will still need MWD to burn back to gate otherwise any gatecamp spells death for you, you will still need it to burn out of bubbles. You will still need MWD ships to bump people off of gates/stations. You will still have MWD on battleships because it lets you align in 10sec instead of 20 MWD isn't mandatory because it lets you avoid damage. It's mandatory because it is incredibly useful for a number of non-combat situations, and because it says "this module lets you not get instagibbed by any random shitty gatecamp." P.S. If you want to make ABs useful, give them a script, charge, overload bonus or something that makes it still useful for going at high speed for a short period of time, otherwise they will continue to be basically useless. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Helen coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.11 16:17:00 - [39] Originally by: sdthujfg It is so satisfying to see all the people, like whole tri alliance and alike, are crying their hearts out on the forums because their only way of warfare (a very cheap and easy one) is getting nerfed, and for a good reason. Your tears are music to my ears. Look a rhyme. Hehe keep telling yourself that at night if/when this nerf comes in prepare to whine even more when we use different tactics to kick ass still.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.11 16:25:00 - [40] Edited by: DubanFP on 11/10/2008 16:25:13 Originally by: Helen Hehe keep telling yourself that at night if/when this nerf comes in prepare to whine even more when we use different tactics to kick ass still. This. See my thread titled "nerfed". Just because we don't want to see these changes go through does not mean we are unwilling or unable to adapt and find the next "overpowered" item and still whoop you with it. It simply means we are comfortable where we are. Honestly a major arguement I have is that the changes will open the door to things more overpowered then anything that's been availible in the last 2 years. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Lokius Ahgamemnon	Posted - 2008.10.11 16:47:00 - [41] Originally by: Terianna Eri P.S. If you want to make ABs useful, give them a script, charge, overload bonus or something that makes it still useful for going at high speed for a short period of time, otherwise they will continue to be basically useless. Also just wanting to point out another idiot because today I find it very fun in this thread I'm reading. I find plenty of useful ways to use an ab instead of a mwd. I know there are tons of other people that know of useful ways in "PVP" to use a ab instead of a mwd :)
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.11 17:07:00 - [42] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 11/10/2008 17:06:56 Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon Originally by: Terianna Eri P.S. If you want to make ABs useful, give them a script, charge, overload bonus or something that makes it still useful for going at high speed for a short period of time, otherwise they will continue to be basically useless. Also just wanting to point out another idiot because today I find it very fun in this thread I'm reading. I find plenty of useful ways to use an ab instead of a mwd. I know there are tons of other people that know of useful ways in "PVP" to use a ab instead of a mwd :) There are many ways to make an AB useful in combat. However, good luck burning back to a gate with an AB. And I don't appreciate the name-calling. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Lokius Ahgamemnon	Posted - 2008.10.11 17:09:00 - [43] I can burn back just fine :)
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.11 17:12:00 - [44] Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon I can burn back just fine :) 500-600 m/s is sufficient? I wouldn't have thought so. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Lokius Ahgamemnon	Posted - 2008.10.11 17:14:00 - [45] my speeds are faster than that sorry you must be doing it wrong....
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.11 17:16:00 - [46] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 11/10/2008 17:17:22 Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon my speeds are faster than that sorry you must be doing it wrong.... Clearly we are not talking about the same ship. Stop being so arrogant, get off your damn high horse, and start being productive. "i like pointing out idiots" and "you must be doing it wrong" don't make you cool. These are the forums to share useful information about ship fits, not /b/. An armor-tanked, plated and/or rigged HAC will go about that fast. BCs will be slower, unplated/armor rigged will be faster. BS will be much slower. Frigs will be somewhat faster. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2008.10.11 20:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Crackzilla Gate camps have been dealt with for years before nanos. After the changes it is likely that nanos won't be able to solo without some risk. However a small gang with cov ops or ceptors stand a decent chance (<<<< scouts!). as i understood ccps dev blog they want to change the mechanic in a way that your scout does not stand any chance to survive. imo kmikaze scout = fail. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.11 22:22:00 - [48] Quote: ...if you want to roam in 0.0 in less than a 20man gang you can forget about it. eve is a blob game and if you cant avoid getting killed by every blobs and camp you cant fight in small scale. fact is. the less mobile you are the less chance in 0.0 you have. ask yourself why every 0.0 alliance with around 500 members can always counter your roaming attempts by a single warp bubble and a couple of snipe bs? One way to avoid being killed by blobs is not sucking. I was going to ask myself why every 0.0 alliance with around 500 members can always counter my roaming attempts, until I realized that they can't and don't, and in fact, the vast majority of them fail at even coming close. From reading your other replies, it's apparent that you do not use scouts whatsoever, you must have started playing since the introduction of rigs which is what lead to this latest nano-age, and you're accustomed to playing the game on ez mode where you never have to scout because there's nothing anyone can do to prevent you from running away regardless of what they have prepared for you on the other side of the gate. I apologize that you lack this particular knowledge and experience, but to put it bluntly, you fail at roaming with non-nano ships because you lack in both the knowledge and experience to do so, not because of any game mechanic that is lacking. Quote: Nanos SHOULD remain viable and yet again nothing in your post proves otherwise. Nanos have always been viable, even back in 04/05 but people chose to fly other style fittings & ships instead. People relied less on nano fits because there were no dictors, large anchored bubbles, cyno jammers, jump bridges and the like. The eve pvp landscape over the years has changed by ccp and people adapted by using nanos. Aside from the fact that the nerf is just poorly thought out; you can't just drop speeds by half and then sort missiles a bit - if they were to do this nerf properly, they'd have to look at turret tracking, optimal ranges of EVERY SINGLE WEAPON IN THE GAME, decloak ranges on gates, bubble diameter and all the rest which links in to ship speed in some way. No, they don't have to look at anything. Missiles have been allowed to baloon up to their current speeds due to missiles being the most obvious weak point when it came to the coding of game mechanics and the brokeness of nanoing. They will tweak missiles to bring them back in line to where they would have been had they not reintroduced broken speeds when they added polycarb rigs, hardwirings, and boosters. Turret Tracking, Optimal ranges, gate cloaks, bubble diameter (with the sole exception being the T1/T2 Large Bubble which they've stated they might consider reducing its range a bit), and other systems you did not mention such as Drones, webs, points, neutralizers, and ewar are already balanced for what should have been the upper limits of speed the entire time. How to Fail at Eve
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.11 22:23:00 - [49] Edited by: Rajere on 11/10/2008 22:24:36 The only weapon system which has somewhat kept up with the speed increases are energy turrets, and that's is due to buffing their tracking so that they could hit while modifying base EM resists to trigger the playerbase into trying out Amarr again, which have for a long time been powerful but only recently this has become apparent to the player base. Combined with the NOS nerf which ended Active Tanking in favor of buffer tanks, all the pieces needed for lasers to become prevalent were put into place. Without cap concerns for active tanking, and with Neuts becoming the defacto cap warfare module and NOS no longer being a reliable method of sustaining cap, cap injectors became the default counter to capacitor warfare. Thus the cap usage of lasers (as well as the caplessness of projectiles) became irrelevant, and with lasers being good already, receiving a boost to effective tracking, non-stacking penalty on Locus rigs, and patch that reduced EM resists, lasers became the OWN weapons we know today. All of these minor changes were added or allowed to exist even though they made lasers far more powerful than any other turret system, precisely the same as nanoing was allowed to grow more and more overpowered over time since the last time they nerfed Nanos into the stone age. It wasn't until the general playerbase caught on to how good they really were and nanoing reduced the variety of viable setups to only those which are nano that they decided to step in. When they do decide to bring lasers in line they will go back and nerf a whole bunch of smaller components until the end result is a balanced turret system. We can only hope that they do so before every single player is flying Amarr Laser ships to the exclusion of all others, such as what we have now with Nanoships. When they do get around to nerfing lasers, you will have players much like yourself QQing about it being absolutely necessary to be able to snipe from 150km with a cruiser, and 200 with a bc, and 250 with a bs, being completely incapable of imagining eve combat being any different from how it is in that moment in time, rather than adapting to change. You will cry saying only ships which can fill these cookie cutter snipe roles have a chance in Eve. And players like myself will point out how ineffective150km sniper zealots are against damps, TDs, and "gasp" nano ships, that is those which are able to attain high speeds such as the vagabond yet are completely balanced doing so. And you will laugh at us for "nanoing" a hac instead of fitting beams and locus rigs on it. How to Fail at Eve
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.12 18:44:00 - [50] Originally by: Denuo Secus Originally by: Esmenet This change brings less variety. Can you explain this? I see more tactical options. Disabling MWD by scram. Using AB means to be invulnerable against that tactic and faster at the end. "Flying under enemy guns" will become possible with AB and weaker web. Real intercepting of MWDing ships will become possible. On the other side: using a MWD will become "less expensive" due to lesser MWD penalties. Today? Enemys web + smallish ship (< BC?) + non nano fitting -> dead -> everyone wants (needs) to nano... My point is, some dedicated ships (of every size) will still be very fast compared to other ships. But not every ship. Speed should be an option - not a necessity. Most hacs are dead. Most minmatar ships are dead. Blaster ships are dead. Speedtanking is dead. "Flying under enemy guns" with an AB will at most be a niche option. You will intercept less as mwding towards the enemy snipers = you die.
carleyjones Caldari Blood and Silver	Posted - 2008.10.13 18:28:00 - [51] Originally by: Rajere One way to avoid being killed by blobs is not sucking. I was going to ask myself why every 0.0 alliance with around 500 members can always counter my roaming attempts, until I realized that they can't and don't, and in fact, the vast majority of them fail at even coming close. Going by the killboards the reason your roaming gangs dont get countered is because you dont actually do anywhere near any alliance holding soverign space! lol. You seem to like low sec molden heath alot and the same few 0.0 systems near low sec entry points. So its probaley not best to insult someone that has more experience of 0.0 roaming then you do, just because they have a different opinion to you (read as MORE INFORMED OPINION). Originally by: Rajere From reading your other replies, it's apparent that you do not use scouts whatsoever, you must have started playing since the introduction of rigs which is what lead to this latest nano-age, and you're accustomed to playing the game on ez mode where you never have to scout because there's nothing anyone can do to prevent you from running away regardless of what they have prepared for you on the other side of the gate. If you seriously think that nano gangs dont use scouts on tranq atm then your dumb-arse. No half decent pvp group is going to go anywhere without using scouts. And to claim otherwise reflects badly on your pvp ability. Originally by: Rajere I apologize that you lack this particular knowledge and experience, but to put it bluntly, you fail at roaming with non-nano ships because you lack in both the knowledge and experience to do so, not because of any game mechanic that is lacking. Your posts clearly show that you have alot knowledge about roaming pvp. Or rather lack off. I tell you what, when you start flying something other than a dictor or falcon (the 2 ships you fly most) and gate camping the entry points to 0.0 or killing noobs in low sec belts and actually try roaming around soverign space then people might start taking you seriously. After seeing your killboards its really easy to understand why YOU want nanos nerfed so badly Originally by: Rajere No, they don't have to look at anything. Text wall of fail. If you generally believe that rubbish you've been posting then you really dont know the first thing about pvp or how its evolved.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.10.13 19:58:00 - [52] Yup, if I could be arsed to argue with idiots, that probably would have been my reply
Space Fascist	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:30:00 - [53] Don't worry about this! You'll be able to walk in stations!
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:54:00 - [54] Edited by: Solomon XI on 13/10/2008 21:57:37 Just my 0.02 ISK ... Anybody who supports these changes in their current form should do the human race a favor and kill themselves. If you need assistance, give me your address, and I'll send you a pen, a piece of paper, and a box of razor blades. I might even include a bottle of Advil so you can do the job correctly. That being said... This change is going to completely kill null-sec roaming ... it's going to come down to who has the biggest blob and only the major power-houses (Goonswarm, Band of Brothers, Morsus Mihi, Etc) will be able to compete in this new age. These changes have been poorly planned and it bothers me to no end that CCP ignored certain threads point out very serious flaws in their scheme. Did you know that this nano-nerf was voted against by a 3/1 margin? For every three people, two said NO. CCP has ignored their player base ... and the consequences if this nano-nerf goes through will be catastrophic. ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO) Pirate Coalition (Yar?)
Crackzilla The Shadow Order	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:13:00 - [55] Originally by: carleyjones If you generally believe that rubbish you've been posting then you really dont know the first thing about pvp or how its evolved. Can't argue the points so you attack the man? Nice.... Originally by: Solomon XI This change is going to completely kill null-sec roaming ... Because null-sec roaming didn't exist before nanos? Originally by: Solomon XI Did you know that this nano-nerf was voted against by a 3/1 margin? That 1/3 of players was fairly foolish for not jumping on the flavor of the year. At least the rest were smart enough to train for and fly the same cookie cutter nanos.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:16:00 - [56] Cracksilla, we all admit that nanos may be a tad ... over-powered. The argument is not that they need to be nerfed, but rather how. This nerf is over-kill. While idiots like you support it in it's current forum, non-nano-pilots are feeling this as well. What do you think this is going to do to blaster boats and auto-cannons? On that note, yeah roaming existed BEFORE nano ... kind of. Double MWD's, etc. Also important to note that alliances are MUCH more powerful today than they were back then ... blobbing wasn't as intense per-se. Please, will you kill yourself? ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO) Pirate Coalition (Yar?)
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Red Thunder they already did....its called adding damage mods or adding speed mods No because other mods require cpu/pg for example shield mods eats so much cpu ,after puting up some you will be force to put up a cpu upgrade to be able to put up weapons and such.
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:40:00 - [58] Originally by: Crackzilla Because null-sec roaming didn't exist before nanos? Yea way back when there was no jump bridges, 0.0 was much less populated and alliances was a lot weaker. Your magical dream land of way back when dont exist anymore. Nanos are needed.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Crackzilla Because null-sec roaming didn't exist before nanos? Yea way back when there was no jump bridges, 0.0 was much less populated and alliances was a lot weaker. Your magical dream land of way back when dont exist anymore. Nanos are needed. Why nanos are needed?? Do you think nanos are opposite of blob? Can you blob with nanos? yes , Can you travel 5-10jumps with nanos within minutes to blob up with your scout nanos if they encounter an enemy non nano gang and gank it? Yes I've seen 100+ ppl nano fleets and seen 2-3 bs-bc gangs before nanos. So nanos are absolutly NOT against the blob. Do you know why ppl blob because if they dont then a stupid nano gang will come from many jumps ahead and gank them. Nerf nanos eve will be much better without them.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:58:00 - [60] Originally by: Crackzilla Originally by: carleyjones If you generally believe that rubbish you've been posting then you really dont know the first thing about pvp or how its evolved. Can't argue the points so you attack the man? Nice.... Originally by: Solomon XI This change is going to completely kill null-sec roaming ... Because null-sec roaming didn't exist before nanos? Originally by: Solomon XI Did you know that this nano-nerf was voted against by a 3/1 margin? That 1/3 of players was fairly foolish for not jumping on the flavor of the year. At least the rest were smart enough to train for and fly the same cookie cutter nanos. Actually Crackzilla is right,there are nano gangs from when rigs came in as i remember and before that solo/small gangs were much more common in 0.0 , ppl started to roam to get a good fight not to gank lone ratters and such, so when enemy came what didnt overpowered them too much,they fought and not run like nowadays as they run when there is a small possibility of loosing ship.

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