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New Dev Blog by Greyscale: Certificates: Planning the Future

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.10.26 21:23:00 - [121] holy fish ****, certificates are overcomplicated and whatnot. I only looked at them for a few mins on my hulk/falcon/raven alt who can't seem to get much of anything. when the test server comes back up I will take a second look with chainsaw. looking quite meh
Adolar Kron Konstrukteure der Zukunft DOMINION.	Posted - 2008.10.27 14:38:00 - [122] You need Multitasking and Fuel Conservation to be a good Crow pilot. These certificates are designed along the skill trees and not along the tasks of the ships. This is the wrong way. You got nothing of a certificate of an improved propulsion specialist or core targeting champion. What a player need is to know: If i want to fly a Crow, what are the skills and only these skills, that will improve me. No one will fit an afterburner on a ceptor. And no one will skill all the skills in the shop, who never give an advantage. Look @ this. This help pilots, your certificate are confusing and full of useless skills for a lot of operations.
Solabre	Posted - 2008.11.02 22:44:00 - [123] I have been looking at the new certficate system. Is the desire to create a set of certficates that verify your level of skills in a specific area? What about the learning skills? I have mine maxed out at level 5 for all the rank 1 and all the rank 3. Why can there not be a certficate for that? It shows that you are, essentially, at the top of your class when it comes to learning skills (though, I do grant, implants and starting attribute allocations can have a large effect). Certainly it is a achievment in and of itself but it also sends a message: "I am here to stay." There should be one certficate at the elite level which requires all lerning skills to be maxed. Also, when is CCP going to implement rank 5 or rank 9 learning skills? I am eagerly awaiting further increasing my attributes.
Djinn Antoniq East Khanid Laboratories Khanid Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.10 21:46:00 - [124] I've just come across this Certificates idea (been a little inactive lately) and it's funny to see the reactions to the different certificate definitions. In my corp we've had something called "Disciplines" for nearly 2 years now, which is, in essence, a similar concept. It was a system put together to try and help new members in our corp to plan their skill training according to what they wanted to do. For example, we've got a Disciplines called "Mining, Assault, Artillery, Combat Logistics, Prodution, Hauling, Refining, Drones, Leadership,...". A Discipline contains not only the skills you'd expect, but supporting skills too. Unfortunately, everyone in the corp has a different idea of what should or shouldn't be included in the different Disciplines, and as a result some people think they're great, and others think they're not worth bothering with. The typical question is "Why am I only on Mining Discipline Level 2 when I can already fly a hulk?" (to which the answer is "just because you can drive a ferrari, doesn't make you a formula 1 champion")... I suspect it'll be the same for the Certificates really... I think the Certificates idea will be useful for new players (like our Disciplines system has been for the last 2 years), it'll be liked by some, and be ignored by others. Speaking from experience, if I can offer a bit of advice to the blokes in charge of the development of the Certificates stuff... concentrate on getting it right for new players, and don't worry about trying to keep everyone happy all the time - this kind of stuff has a lot of subjective opinions involved and you're never going to make everyone happy with what you choose for the different certificate definitions. Glad to see this idea getting an in-game equivalent. Depending on how it works out, perhaps we can finally retire our Disciplines. Recruitment Thread EKT Website
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:16:00 - [125] Ok, potentially obvious question imminent: Where's the 'unclaim' button? Scared of the events forum?
Kalderion Mar	Posted - 2008.11.12 05:59:00 - [126] not likely I'll ever get elite industry etc since theres no way I will train the for caldari undustrials, and Minmitar industrials etc.. have a mega miner alt that can mine and refine anything, as well as build anything but a titan, and not a single elite skill. Having looked at it for about a half hour, there are a serious pile of skills that I "never" had any intention of training because I don't need them, or want them... and putting them into a certificate isn't going to make me want to spend the time for them just so they say elite... I am sure some people like this, but ("IMHO") it was a waste of time to add this to the game. It ranks right up there with HEAT... I would rather have seen other things Fixed, and or added.
Deija Vu Minmatar TalCorp Enterprises Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.12 06:13:00 - [127] It would be good if there was an option to make your certificates viewable by corp members only.
Shiu	Posted - 2008.11.12 12:17:00 - [128] Onto the player made certs. would be nice to be able to make some certs and compare them against other players, for recruitment purposes. This would simplify the task of finding the right material (pilots) tremendously.
x psy	Posted - 2008.11.12 12:31:00 - [129] Edited by: x psy on 12/11/2008 12:35:48 what about forcing the guy, that made the certificates, actually play the game and develop a char ? O.o
Tolein Nachura	Posted - 2008.11.12 15:14:00 - [130] Hi, I might have missed them (cause it was really really late last night); 1. If the primary purpose of certs is the NPE, why isnt there a Core Learning? I mean, when i started playing the most given answer to "What should i train?" was "Learning skills!" 2. When looking at Gallente HAC's, i dont think i saw Weapon Upgrades 5 anywhere in the certs; some people might think it odd to have all the certs for a ship, but not be able to fly one. 3. Where can i see how many certs i have? And i mean a number :) Would be nice to have a little bar on top of the certs page in the char sheet that gives my the total of certs. On the gripping hand: Nice interface for the certs thingie. Gives me nice warm skill-tree feelings :) Cheers, Nagon
Jade Starkadder Gallente Eden Federal Recon	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:13:00 - [131] Edited by: Jade Starkadder on 13/11/2008 16:12:56 Not the most intense questions I'm sure, but: Is there a place on the EVE Online web site to view the certificates and their respective groups? Something similar to the Item Database perhaps? Just a way to determine skill plans outside of the game.
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:18:00 - [132] Yes.. good idea, but most unfortunately in need of a lot of polish. Many certificates imply the need for skills to levels that that are nice to have, but not really required or very situational in their application. Also they mix up the races sometimes in not very sensible ways. I honestly fear they will result in new players wasting skilltime. Also I am rather sure the certificates as they are implemented by the current interface will not help but further confuse new players, hell the interface confuses me... In my opinion, the total number of certificates should be reduced, with the remaining ones very selectively focusing on the most essential skills.
Gaelyn Ryhn	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:21:00 - [133] Some of them are just plain funny. To get Refinery Foreman (Standard) it requires you to have Refinery Efficiency at Level 1, Metallurgy at Level 2 and Scrapmetal Processing at level 2. Only it's funny how Scrapmetal Processing already requires Refinery Efficiency AND Metallurgy at Level 5 in the first place. And Refinery Foreman (Standard) is the prereq to some basic Harvesting certificates. So to get some basic refining certificates you need to train one Rank 1 skill to level 5 (Refining) and two Rank 3 skills to level 5 (Refinery Efficiency and Metallurgy). Working as intended? This is just one of the many oddities that I noticed, just can't remember the others on the top of my hat.
Rye East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.14 12:43:00 - [134] Edited by: Rye on 14/11/2008 12:44:24 Something for the CCP Devs working on certificates... I wrote a tool to work out what the complete list of required skills are for each certificate, along with highlighting any "errors" in the certificates as it stands in the export from the API. It reports errors when a required skill for a certificate has already been required elsewhere (either as a pre-requisite for a skill already required somewhere in the certificate's tree, or as a requirement of another certificate in the current certificate's tree). Basically, any thing it reports as errors are "wasted" requirements since they must already have been trained before you can even consider claiming that certificate. Hopefully this will help you identify where there are inconsistencies. Typically, I'd expect you will either remove the duplicate skill requirement, or replace it with something else, or change the previous certificate requirements to something lower... whatever you decide, hopefully this will help you iron out any duplications / irrelevant requirements in the certificates. It also gives an indication of the "Required Skill Point Investment" (RSPI) for each certificate. This is the total of the SP that needs to go into all of the required skills to get to that level of certificate, which might be interesting if you want to "balance" certificates across the categories or classes (most seem balanced, but maybe this will help highlight some areas that may need re-jigging). Here's a working version of the tool using the API's /eve/CertificateTree.xml.aspx output (and the skills tree too) from the 13th of November.... http://www.eastkhanid.co.uk/CertStats/certstats.php And here's a zip file containing the source code (PHP 5) if anyone wants to take a look. It's not overly elegant or anything (I slapped it together last night, so it's just a brute-force approach), but it does the job... http://www.eastkhanid.co.uk/CertStats/certstats.zip I hope this helps.
Jonak Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.14 13:00:00 - [135] I've looked over some of these certificates and have decided that I have no need to ever look at them again.
Lady Cath Minmatar Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.11.14 17:14:00 - [136] Originally by: CCP Gangleri [...] regarding unbalanced certificate requirements [...] Bug reports can be filed here Please include as much info as possible to help our volunteers filter the bugs more efficiently. My bug report 65226 has been filtered for this reason: "The problem you have described as an intended game feature, and not a bug. Your bugreport has been filtered." Please align internally better what to filter and what not.
Hudson Brynne Caldari Inter-Stellar Defense Systems Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.14 17:16:00 - [137] Rye -- you missed a big "error" that i think somebody else pointed out earlier in the thread... Refinery Foreman Standard (II) requires Metallurgy II and Scrapmetal Processing II. But Scrapmetal Processing requires both Refinery Efficiency V and Metallurgy V
Thorson Wiles Minmatar M3 Co-Op	Posted - 2008.11.14 18:47:00 - [138] Post 25: A character named 'Lumy' found some issues and able to get a certificate that should have been very tough to get because there weren't any prerequisites and thought it was a bug, but didn't know how to file a bug report. CCP Gangleri posted where to file them, and some rules to include as much info as possible. Originally by: CCP Gangleri Bug reports can be filed here Please include as much info as possible to help our volunteers filter the bugs more efficiently. This is a specific response to a percieved question: How to file a bug report. The really important post about asking questions/making suggestions about certificates was in post 11 by CCP Greyscale in his last paragraph. (This looks like his 'baby.') Originally by: CCP Greyscale ... If you do find something you think is odd, or a bit off, please do mention it in this thread so we can hunt down any problems and squash them
Rye East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.14 20:52:00 - [139] Originally by: Hudson Brynne Rye -- you missed a big "error" that i think somebody else pointed out earlier in the thread... Refinery Foreman Standard (II) requires Metallurgy II and Scrapmetal Processing II. But Scrapmetal Processing requires both Refinery Efficiency V and Metallurgy V Thanks Hudson. Bug found and fixed. Recruitment Thread EKT Website
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.16 12:20:00 - [140] I just wished to mention two bugs in the certificate planner. - If you have bough a skill, put it on your char but not yet trained to lvl 1, when you right click from the certif planner to train the skill, the option "Train it to lvl1" doesn't exist. the game behaves like if you hadn't the skill on your char and propose to open the market. - "Core tragetting standart" got multasking lvl 1 for prerequisite. Targetting 5 is the rerequisite of multitasking, it is trained to lvl 4 in the previous certif. Targting 5 is mentioned nowhere in the Core Targetting certificate path. Fetchez la vache !
Doctor Penguin Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.16 12:28:00 - [141] The Certificate Planner is really useful for me! Good job CCP!
Allvan Harl	Posted - 2008.11.16 16:02:00 - [142] I'm liking these certs. Over the past few months, corp mates have "pulled" me away from some good, needed training in order to fly this ship or that ship. Looking over these certs, I saw that I didn't qualify for many of the basics. So I took some time and trained up more targeting and nav skills. They're helping a lot. Before my ships were performing ok. Now they're doing a lot better. I get around a bit faster and my targeting speed has improved a lot. For some of you, this will have seemed obvious. I do think these certs are needed however. When I first started as a nub, that skill tree was super complex that first month. These certs will help smooth that out and keep you on track while you learn this game. It'll also assume you're getting those skills that don't seem very exciting but really do add to your capabilities on just about any ship. So cudos to CCP for doing these certs. They are awesome. I too agree with a previous post - those core comp certs need to have one for learning skills (one area I did get right early on - coming up on 15 million skill points after 11 months of play.) Custom certificates will also make this feature useful to veteran pilots. I recommend a new corp role so corp-issued certificates have some structure and a central point of contact for generation and maintenance. As for anyone being able to generate and share their own custom certificates, to make that useful you'll need some sort of feedback rating system to help cut down on the junk that will get turned out. Those cert plans with a high feedback rating could possibly be sold on the market, generating a new stream of income for those who put work into them.
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.16 20:49:00 - [143] Certificates are a great idea but until CCP has a nice long talk with players about reasonable requirements Certs will remain only that, a great idea. One example that comes to mind is the fact that my toons (1 a carrier pilot) will never have better than a standard drone operation cert because I see no reason to train caldari drone spec.
Keeloux Siind	Posted - 2008.11.20 01:09:00 - [144] One question, Spodumain Processing is not mentioned, neither in the certificate "Common Ore Refiner" nor the certificate "Rare Ore Refiner".....why is that? Also, why is Mining Upgrades V a prerequisite for the certificate "Resource Harvester", when only Mining Upgrades IV is needed to use T2 Mining Laser Upgrades and therefore achieve perfect yield in a Hulk? I see it as fundamentally wrong to have a maxed CPU boni as a stated necessity for a maximum yield certificate!
David Ironman	Posted - 2008.11.27 15:02:00 - [145] "Certificates don't allow you to set skill queues or any similar functionality" Certificates are useless. With the elimination of ghost training skill queuing should be allowed.
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.28 01:14:00 - [146] Originally by: Keeloux Siind Also, why is Mining Upgrades V a prerequisite for the certificate "Resource Harvester", when only Mining Upgrades IV is needed to use T2 Mining Laser Upgrades and therefore achieve perfect yield in a Hulk? Would having more CPU available for better tank make you a better resource harvester?
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.28 01:26:00 - [147] I'll just add my voice to the chorus of folks questioning the need for Multitasking in any of the certificates short of Advanced or Elite. You can be competent at flying a mission running boat or logistics cruiser without being able to target more than 7 objects.
Amira Silvermist The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.11.29 21:31:00 - [148] To get the Elite Armor Tanking certificate one needs to have "Shield Management V"... :p ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aamirr Xanis	Posted - 2009.02.01 17:51:00 - [149] I've reviewed the DEV blog, and the remarks of the players, in this thread, it appears they (players), some, but not all have missed the boat. The intent of the Certificate Planner is merely a suggested skill plan by what CCP might think is appropriate to use said item or ship, etc. There is no requirement that you have to have certs to use or fly anything. So in that usage the Cerifticate Planner is great, I like the idea/ability to train level 0 skills from the planner, although I haven't done it myself. Taken seperately, it's a Evemon 1.0. Now if the ability to train a skill was added to the certificate planner it would add a great feature to the tool, as Evemon currently lacks. This is not the be all end all, but merely a tool w/ recommendations. It is no way intended to be defining factor on how or what to train in Eve. This feature would also eliminate the action I perform of opening Evemon, and creating a skillplan to follow to get a certificate. Trying to use Certificate Planner to develop a career character may be beyond the Certificate Planner, but I don't think the intent of the planner was to replace Evemon. Evemon is still a great tool for planning skill training. As long as CCP doesn't try to leverage Certificate Planner to replace Evemone, the two will co-exist quite well. Thanks for listening. Aamirr Xanis
Kira Laren Minmatar Imperium Galactica	Posted - 2009.02.02 10:40:00 - [150] You are right that the certificate system is merely a suggested skill plan, but new players will use it if they don't have any other resources to help their skill planning. So CCP must chose carefully what they suggest, to not waste training time needlessly, as some players pointed out in previous posts. New players tend to follow a "proven" plan designed by experts before they become familiar with the game.

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