Originally by: Gorek Loc

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5.500+ posts and not a single post from CCP or their employees. Do they even read it, or did they cave in immediately after the first flame?

I fear that this thread is off-limits for all CCP-employees!

Could we at least get a post from CCP to confirm they still follow the 'suggestions' on this thread, since all other threads are locked on other forums.

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Originally by: Joskken Inx

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There's no other MMO like Eve, and there is nowhere I'd rather go than here. I've said it many, many times during this week it's not the "nerf" that ****ed me off. It's calling us in no uncertain terms "exploiters" for using a "bug" all this time.

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Originally by: Captain Hudson

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Same 20 people and their ghost training alts still posting in this thread?

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Originally by: Gunnanmon

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Originally by: Hong Lihua

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PLEAZE CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF OR ALL YOUR ISK?!!!!

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This line wasn't funny the first 7 centillion times it was written, either. :/

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Originally by: Drew Falcon

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Anyway, the ones making the biggest deal about it will quit for a week and come right back when boredom peaks. These things tend to blow over with little memory remaining, (BOB's tech 2 BPO's anybody?)

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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Tsk-tsk! Such bitterness over losing a freebie in a computer game!

Is there a more convincing way to show that I haven't really read enough of the thread to understand the backlash? Probably not.

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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Who lied to you?

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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Is there a more convincing way to show that I haven't really read enough of the thread to understand the backlash? Probably not.

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Originally by: Davina Braben

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Interview with Torfri:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/2349/Ghost-Training-Interview

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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im constantly amazed how much d-i-c-k the fanbois will allow CCP to insert up their asses

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Originally by: Vangogh61

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...now I expect to get some rebate when you take the game down for a day or so.

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Originally by: Azraeljbs

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Edited by: Azraeljbs on 23/10/2008 17:28:40

Originally by: Fangren Hunter

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PLAYER BASE ON STRIKE



As form of protest I call to you all to cancel every one of your accounts.

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There fixed that for you. CCP could care less if you log in or not. They are still getting your money regardless. The only way to let CCP know you are ****ed and will not tollerate being lied to and treated like a cash cow is to cancel your accounts. That is the only thing CCP understands....profit margins. Hit them where it hurts and let them know we as a player base are not just figures in their bank accounts.
Ranting and raving about it here on the forums will do little to change it. The ONLY way to get anything done is to cancel your subs and let CCP know why when you do. There is a block that comes up with a comments section when you cancel, feel free to flame the living **** out them about this decision when you do cancel, I did with all 4 of my accounts.

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Originally by: Duskadantor

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Torfi needs some lube :'(

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Originally by: Belmarduk

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Quote:
MindstarSkill queue is popular idea. Is this something that's being looked into?
ZuluparkThis was something I was UNOFFICIALLY discussing with the lead game designer in purely speculative manner. Our feels were that you're kinda opening can of worms. We want people to play the game instead of just putting things in a queue and not play. This is is not official and we'll look into this better in near future.
Quote end.

What the **** is the big issue about this?
We keep getting the same stupid argument for years now - it was on the drawing - board for years for christ sakes !!!!
I am ****ing paying for the game - I decide IF I play or not !
If I only logg in to change the skill-queue every few weeks its MY ****ING DECISION as I am paying for it bloody hell !
I like this game and have played nearly 3 years - but this is an issue which should have been implemented from day one
PERIOD
Ps.: Anyone who thinks like please support the ****ing thread in the assembly hall.
out. ****

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Originally by: Joey Meow

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Originally by: CCP Zulupark Regarding "Ghost Training"

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Ghost training:
I think we could have handled the original announcement better, I completely agree with that, and we have implemented procedures to make sure that doesn't happen again. What is stated in t0rfifrans's blog however is something that we 100% stand by.

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Originally by: Lusulpher

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I will continue playing and whining until skill queue is put in by CSM or whoever. This is not Central America, stay and fight for what is yours dammit.

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Originally by: Lusulpher

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Anything that imbalances the real world economy also better not show up in my damn gamn either, like say a myriad of economy-breaking tax loopholes and bad(greedy,selfish) decisions to acquire money and services that aren't yours...that lead to world banks failing...I'm not going to help bail you out in RL, so clean up your act ingame.

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Originally by: Lusulpher

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STFU and open contracts.

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Originally by: Tasty Bit

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I doubt that'll happen. It's been stated, previously by the powers that be, that they don't want people not logging in. They want you to log in for 30 seconds to change a skill every so often. I guess if people don't log in, they data about people online looks kinda lame. Then again, if one logs in for 30 seconds once a week, that doesn't exactly do much to the numbers.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Posted - 2008.07.10 12:12:00

0001 Skill Queue Functionality

Noah (CCP) indicated CCPÆs awareness of the player frustrations with the ~6 hour duration skill trainings. However, CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play. A skill queue would be a possible solution, if there would be limitations, such as a limited amount of skills being trained, or that only skills of a total up to a certain duration can be stacked into the queue.

Alex (CSM Bane Glorious) noted that players have also suggested a dual training mechanic, where players can pick a primary and secondary skill, which both train at half speed. As soon as the skill with the shortest duration is finished, the other skill will train at full speed.

It was concluded that CCP will look into a solution for this issue.

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Originally by: Tivookz

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It's a classic mistake to believe that players forget things.

We don't forget, we just get exhausted talking about it but when the time comes to decide wether to stay or try a new game, the decision will be easier to make when you think back on issues like this one where over 5000 posts have been made without a single comment from CCCP.

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Originally by: Marbith

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I suppose next people will want macro-mining to be legalized

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Originally by: Hudhayfah

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Edited by: Hudhayfah on 28/10/2008 22:08:09
I made it ... another page...

Well I'am sure that everyone here knows one of the most common rules regarding chat channels...

When being teased... or with reds present...

Don't talk back or Don't talk in 'local'

That's what CCP is doing..

I wonder if after today this thread gets deleted, for stressing the servers

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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Ya that one... and the one where I quoted it as showing that CCP isnt even reading this thread.
I cant link it... its been deleted... plus... if i link it my post will get deleted and I might earn my last (and perminant) ban lol Ive already had like 8 warnings

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Originally by: Joey Meow

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Guys, CCP just wants this to die, and they do not want to be seen as callous when they lock this thread. So they will wait a week, and then lock it, since they will use this, and I quote:

"This Tread Has Run it's Course, Click," or some such stupid forum meme they have been using for years.

Basically: You will get no apology for "misinformation" by T0rfi, you will get no apology for the cover up, you will get nothing from them. They care, but they only care about shoving this thread into the forum oblivion. As you know the outside world is a bit slow about learning news on things like MMOS, so the sooner they get rid of this thread, the less chances other consumers will learn as to what exactly happened.

Good Job CCP. I read your point loud and clear.

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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oh btw:
THIS S-hit is priceless. Ask this dude anything then the thread gets locked
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=905942

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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So, when you troll a troll in a troll thread, does the troll trolling you have any credibility in complaining about being trolled??

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Originally by: Yeknom Nam

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Well, I wonder what happened to my post. It was just there yesterday, hmm. Surely, if it was purposefully removed they would have told me why?

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Fortunately for me, I can read more than one line in the manual that is contrary to the numerous posts from DEVs over the years stating that this really wasn't an intended feature of skill training in EVE.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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(April 2007)

The skill trains until the level you're currently training is completed. You can't start training on the next level or new skill until you login of course

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Originally by: CCP Jiekon

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(November 2006)
Hi folks.

I just want to let you know that skill training WILL continue while the account is inactive. I had picked this up wrong when i was speaking to Wrangler before and i mistakenly told him that skills stop training when accounts go inactive, this is why it was included in the patch notes and it's entirely my fault.

This was a mistake on my part and the patch notes will be changed and that line removed as soon as possible.

Apologies for the misunderstandings.

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Originally by: EVE Online Senior Producer Torfi Frans - www.mmorpg.com Interview

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ôWe announced it as a bug, which it was to a lot of us old devs, but as it turned out, our website listed it as a feature because we had outsourced the writing of our career guide to someone who was not knowledgeable about the code itself, years ago back in 2004à It was like a virus waiting to get out and nobody had really given it much thought until it was pointed out when the whole debate started.ö

ôIt was a general oversight on our part,ö Torfi admitted. He went on to remind me about the companyÆs origins as a smaller company. ôBack in 2004,ö he said, ôwe were a company of 40 doing what companies of 80 or 120 were doingà struggling to keep EVE alive. Back then, we had a lot of challenges, a lot of things we were doing and this slipped between the cracks. IÆm not saying that this makes it right, but in the larger perspective, itÆs just one of those things that happened.ö

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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More stuff

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Originally by: Rasik Argimater

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And here's another one that may help put this in perspective:

• they should nerf jetcan mining.

It seems to be widely acknowledged by veterans that jetcan mining was never intended. Not a feature, but an unintended game mechanic. Sound familiar? Except this one is really true. CCP intended that we mine, fill up the cargo hold, return to the station, unload, go back to the belt, rinse and repeat. Sound crazy, right? But someone figured out how to use jetcans and haulers instead, and the rest is history.

So if CCP were to announce that jetcan mining was a "bug" and will be disabled in two days, would all the "smart" people support CCP as they have supported the nerf of unsubbed training? Despite the fact that jetcan mining, in hindsight, is what enables serious mining, CCP's original intent notwithstanding? Despite the fact that the game would lose most of its subscribers virtually overnight?

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Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd

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how is this thread relevant to the discussion here?

is it because it had the words "ghost training" in it, and instructions are to hunt down every thread with those two words (no matter what the thread is actually about), and direct it to this thread?

"smart", real "smart".

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Originally by: CCP Applebabe

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Please keep all the discussion to the relevant sticky here.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Originally by: Chindi Yazzie

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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stuff

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CCP Employee alt detected.

CY

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Heh, nope. Just someone who's been around long enough to know a tempest in a tea cup when I see one.

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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Originally by: CCP Navigator

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The thread content, I assume, is still the same.

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LOL priceless. This is simply outrageous, you(devs) actually read this thread once in a while and laugh at us?!!

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Originally by: Leica Stroganow

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Rabblerabblerabble

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Originally by: Tivookz

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Originally by: Squirrrel

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I think the cancellations haven't hit CCP yet, so they don't know if it's just a threat until the game time runs out in less than 30, 60, 90 days time.

Tgey would also be hoping people will resub to try Quantum Rise, and that it will sway those who say they have had enough.

Risky game to play, unless either people haven't cancelled and they see that, or the numbers that have aren't really much of a bother to them at this point.

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Oh please, Quantum Rise is a large update at best, nothing worth resubbing for.

Besides, we didn't cancel our accounts because of lack of content.

Tiv

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Originally by: Tivookz

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I think the message would become clearer if someone just printed out the whole topic and then shipped it all in a box to CCPs office or something.

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Originally by: Noxic

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And to put the boot in one more time, id like to mention this one last thing. If your attending fanfest please please please please please dump the entire transcript in STONE on whoever is responsible for this epic fail. all 5300 replies please.

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Originally by: Tasty Bit

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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anyone else just waitin for the *click* from CCP on this thread?

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I predict they'll let it go to page 199, and hit the button.

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Originally by: Shoukei

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Originally by: Tivookz

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Can I have your stuff is like sooo 2006 or at best 2007, cut it out please, it was pretty funny the first time but now it's just a major annoyance as you won't be getting anyones stuff ever by just asking that question.

Tiv

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im sure you have seen it all already. so, like, can i have your stuff grandpa?

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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This whole thread is about expressing massive amounts of angst over loosing a computer game freebie. This angst is sometime disguised as indignation at being slighted or given such short notice, however this doesn't change the main gist. Can there be a lower form of begging? I am hard pressed to come up with an example.

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Originally by: Tivookz

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If we would give you anything worth mentioning you'd have plenty of cool toys to play with...

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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What they did was a sound business decision.

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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I'm not here to give lectures on the basics of public relations damage control.

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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What I am mainly commenting on is the apparent conviction of some that having payed once or twice for a computer game is somehow equivalent to receiving some kind of nuptial rights to everything about it.

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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[See what I mean, you can't stop. In a relationship this kind of behavior looks very much like 'codependency'.

The fact that you refer to yourself as a 'dog being kicked' is also symptomatic.

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Quote:

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Weæve seen that the 400 people at CCP donæt all share a hive mind--even though weæve put into effect a lot of restrictions lately, much against the will of our staff, that they canæt be stating their opinions as freely as before.

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Originally by: Doctor Drones

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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And I could care less if they ban me IM never coming back to THIS game.

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Surely you mean "I couldn't care less"? If you assert that you could care less, that demonstrates that you do care. Whereas if you do not care at all, then it's not possible to care less, so you couldn't care less. See?

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Originally by: Thaos

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no other MMORPG does this.

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Originally by: Rasik Argimater

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How is that relevant? Eve isn't any other MMORPG. If anything, Eve has tried to set itself apart from other MMORPGs and to have unique features others don't have.

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Originally by: Thaos

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But most other MMORPGÆs use experience points and a different type of skill tree to advance in the game.

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Originally by: Rasik Argimater

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Exactly. You've just nullified your previous point.

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Originally by: Thaos

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no other MMORPG does this. But most other MMORPGÆs use experience points and a different type of skill tree to advance in the game.

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Originally by: Seth Vorlar

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And still no response to the playerbase ????

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Originally by: Swoopdeath

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I can't believe the amount of whining this thread contains! Guys it's 15 bucks a month...less if you purchase multiple months.

I realize that some people may not be able to afford multiple video game accounts in this economy...but if you can't afford 15 bucks a month then you probably should spend it on food and STFU.

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Originally by: Fiona Mars

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d) IÆve honestly not see anyone post a link to anywhere stating explicitly the Ghost-Training was a legit feature. IÆm willing to concede the point only if you can show me something written by the hand of a CCP employee saying it was, (e.g. an old EULA).

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Originally by: Swoopdeath

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Originally by: Lorac Caladon

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Originally by: Swoopdeath

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I can't believe the amount of whining this thread contains! Guys it's 15 bucks a month...less if you purchase multiple months.

I realize that some people may not be able to afford multiple video game accounts in this economy...but if you can't afford 15 bucks a month then you probably should spend it on food and STFU.

Ok I'm done. CCP good job. The only thing I might suggest is a small training queue because it is a pain in the butt to do the shorter skill trainings. Maybe just make it one skill deep or by time...ie Max 2 skills OR 48 hours etc..

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And yet ANOTHER poster that does not understand the scope of the issue. Seriously, if you can't be bothered to make an informed argument, why do you even bother to post? This is not meant as flame towards you, I just really don't understand why posters such as yourself feel like it's necessary to ignore ALL of the facts put before you.

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Look if you disagree with me that's fine. But don't say I'm totally uninformed...I've played Eve for years on multiple accounts, taken advantage of the ghost training
sometimes, and run my own RL business which has to make decisions similar to these everyday. ...

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Originally by: Swoopdeath

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You talked a lot there but didn't say much...if you disagree I already posted that I could respect your opinion, but you have to actually add something. Saying "talk to my people" doesn't do anything. And the STFU was already stated toward the WHINING.

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Originally by: Swoopdeath

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What SOME people don't understand is...whining is whining no matter if you're right or wrong. I'd love to see an organized coalition of players who plan to all cancel their accounts and show CCP the business, but I just doubt that this is any more than their whining at how "unfair" the world is.

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Originally by: Corbin Swift

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Originally by: Tasty Bit

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Originally by: Betty Bloodspatter

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..stuff..

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Betty, where did you/we find out about the skill training mechanism? I never saw it anywhere, and wondered if they told us, or someone worked it out.

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To a software engineer the mechanism is fairly obvious. I concur with Bettys explanation of how it works. If it worked differently, there would be no need to stop skill training before using implants or jump cloning. In fact, forcing users to stop skill training before they can plug in an implant or use a jump clone is a work-around that CCP probably used to keep their skill training code as simple as possible.

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Originally by: Betty Bloodspatter

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Originally by: Squirrrel

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You're all working on the assumption that the game is coded logically and using best-design / best-practise.
While it's probably true that EvE is indeed coded in that manner, I do sometimes wonder.

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No, we're not making that assumption. The way training works in Eve reveals the nature of the internal design and implemenation.

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Originally by: bjtardiff

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..I don't know why anyone is ranting ...

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Originally by: Zanpt

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[sigh] In fact, observable behavior and internal design and implementation have strong connections. This is my profession. This is what I do for a living. I've been doing it for 45 years. Observing the behavior of systems and identifying aspects of design and implementation from the behavior are integral parts of what I do. Sometimes it helps to know the code; at other times it makes little difference and I can zero in on specific functional areas of the code and describe the design or implementation issues with great accuracy. I did this just recently in the case of a serious anomaly in a software package to which we acquired the rights, the code of which I have never had reason to examine.

The internals and externals are not unrelated; the externals are produced directly by the internals. I don't need to convince you of this; I do it every day and if I were wrong or if I weren't good at it I wouldn't be where I am today.

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Originally by: bjtardiff

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ok seriously why are people ranting oh so what they can't train a skill when they dont pay for a game.

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Originally by: bjtardiff

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2nd edit:
Also what makes any of you people think you can just demand something and that they will be forced to comply just to please YOU! Don't mean to be offensive but you need to wake up and realize that everything cannot go your way. So it was in the original manual they changed it people got mad when they changed a lot of stuff did they change it back?

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Originally by: Zanpt

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It's refreshing to have a civil discussion even if we don't seem to be on the same wavelength. Thank you for that.

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Originally by: Zanpt

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The way in which Eve training behaves indicates that it was designed to have no processes that "run for skill training...

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Originally by: Corbin Swift

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Originally by: Squirrrel

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I guess the only 'real' example I may be able to give you as to where I'm coming from (and I'll be honest and say I'm not entirely sure of how and when this update on InEve) is the API key of a characters skills.

For exmaple, if the API grabs the data and sends it to a third-party to update such a site, how ofte does it do it, and is it checking as if it were the client periodically?

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The API is disabled for unsubbed accounts too. For subscribed accounts, the data is retrieved when the site using the API requests it. That interval varies, but the API site that I am aware of updates once per hour.

You should listen to the people that have reverse engineered the skill training procedure. Many people came to the same conclusions independently, which lends a lot of weight to their opinions. I also figured out the formula to calculate how long a given skill would take to complete, based on my current attributes and the rank/level of the skills. After I had done this, I found that the system had been cracked by several people prior to me. We were all correct.

regards,
Corbin

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

Oh yeah, and get a real job you bum.

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Originally by: Saberon

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Do I see 186 pages of players whining and crying that CCP don't let them play the game for free?!

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Originally by: Saberon

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Oh God, you need everything spoon fed? (That means that it should all be so easy to read that you don't need to think much about it to understand it)

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Originally by: Saberon

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It was a sarcastic remark (Sarcasm is stating the opposite of an intended meaning especially in order to sneeringly, slyly, jest or mock a person, situation or thing. It is strongly associated with irony, with some definitions classifying it as a type of verbal irony intended to insult or wound.)

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Originally by: Saberon

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I did read the first 25-or so pages, and then every few pages, and guess what - aside from a few witty and thoughtful comments, it's all the same.

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Originally by: Saberon

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Geez!

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Originally by: Saberon

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PS: And now that I have posted, you can read out to the left, which character to contract your remaining goods to ;-)

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Originally by: Saberon

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w/e

You guys are babbling about CCP saying GT being a bug ot not, or claimed by CCP, blah blah

You know what? It's a game with a monthly fee, and training offline is a part of that game.
I am amazed that some of you guys, who've been abusing this feature, rather than just being quiet and follow the intentions, which is "pay to play", prefer to sit here ranting about CCP lying about it. It doesn't matter if it costs server load or not, or whatever other reasons you might have. CCP is a service provider, who charges (a pretty small amount too) for that service, and nowhere does it say that you have to - it's an offer, take it or leave it.

If it makes you guys, Lorac and Squirrel and others, feel better to ridicule me in that way, lol, go for it, feel free, it doesn't change the fact that you should pay to be training a character in a game just as much as all we honest paying customers are :)

But my point stands. (all of them)

Enjoy! (I am)

Btw, ... Nah :)

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Originally by: Saberon

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Originally by: Squirrrel

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Edited by: Squirrrel on 19/11/2008 20:50:07
So it doesn't bother you one bit then that the (originally) stated reason for doing away with it was a lie?

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No, it doesn't.

I never had a reason to be affected, other than saying "No way! People have been ninjaing skill training time? :O"

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Originally by: Saberon

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Besides, CCP are in no way obligated to consult any of us before making a decision like that - it's just great that they still do at times.

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Originally by: Lorac Caladon

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Originally by: Saberon

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If it makes you guys, Lorac and Squirrel and others, feel better to ridicule me in that way, lol, go for it, feel free, it doesn't change the fact that you should pay to be training a character in a game just as much as all we honest paying customers are :)

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You posted in this thread of your own will. If you think you are being ridiculed because we can show you where you are wrong, so be it. And for someone that embraces the concept of honesty so much, I have to say that I think that you are backing the wrong horse.

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Originally by: Nannu Who

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Squirrrel I was just wondering...

...what do you think the total reply count might drop by if
your account(s) had suspended before the blog was ever put up?

Bearing in mind the replies to your replies I'll take a stab at 500 ^^

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Originally by: Nannu Who

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lol

Lorac thinks it's higher than my guess.

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Originally by: Doctor Penguin

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Face it you twits, you've lost.
I agree with the chap that said that he didn't care that CCP had "lied" to him. If your so mentally insecure as for that to bother you, I'd advise seeing a shrink about a bad case of irrational paranoia.

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Originally by: Doctor Penguin

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If slinging insults is your first line of defence for those who critique , I think all that does is points out the obvious - the people who are whining on this thread are twits.

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Originally by: Doctor Penguin

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Face it you twits, you've lost.

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Originally by: Doctor Penguin

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Now, I know you want a good arguement, but in all honesty, I think that you badly need to sit down and contemplate the value of continuing this discussion.

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Originally by: Doctor Penguin

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Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 22/11/2008 11:26:33

Originally by: Squirrrel

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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

You're a hypocrite.

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Nope, because twit is about as offending as calling somebody a carrot.

Now, if you'll stop dismissing my arguement because I'm so obviously more idiotic than you, then you might understand that my arguement was that it's bloody sad to sit on this thread crying into your cup of emo. Get over it.

PS: Above Whiner: Starting said rebuttal with dumbass. Nice.

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Originally by: Kerfira

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Y'all still crying?

The free lunch offer was cancelled... Deal with it!

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Originally by: Kerfira

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I wonder why all the 1000's of players that emoragequit over this, the speed nerf and the missile nerf are still logging in....
http://www.eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
41k players online this last day...

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Originally by: Gemberslaafje

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I don't get it.

You pay for your account, you train,

You don't pay for your account, you don't train.

What the hell is so wrong with that you guys need 188 pages to complain about a purely natural thing?

Please, go play world of warcraft or something.

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Originally by: fried eggs

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Originally by: Kerfira

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I wonder why all the 1000's of players that emoragequit over this, the speed nerf and the missile nerf are still logging in....
http://www.eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
41k players online this last day...

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And you know that all of the people that have stated their intention to leave the game have not done so...how? You do know that you don't loose the right to login when you cancel an account, right? Or could it be that you are just attempting to "troll"?

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Originally by: Apertotes

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Originally by: Squirrrel

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Having days left on your account after cancelling... thats a feature. For now...

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yep, just like alt characters. it was an oversight on the process, and probably next year they'll fix the bug ramdomly erasing 2 characters on every account. do not worry though, they'll warn us at least 2 days before with a short note on the news section on the main page, and then they'll release 10 or 12 new messages that will render the note invissible.

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Originally by: Kerfira

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Numbers speak for themselves

It's been almost a month and a half since the removal of your free lunch. IF the 1000's of players had quit as you've all said they'd do, it would be visible. It isn't!

Please continue fighting them windmills. It's giving me a good laugh every morning seeing you being so upset over a trivial and logical change

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Originally by: Kerfira

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Keep amusing me..... It's funny to read people complaining so much that the free lunch was cancelled

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Originally by: 8Z 6

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Originally by: Kerfira

---

You do know that on average an EVE player stays in the game for only 7 months, right? Thus there'll ALWAYS be a huge number of new players.

A lot stay longer of.c., but those are not typically the emoragequit type. We simply stay because this is the greatest space MMO there is.

So why should CCP reply? They've made their (imo sound) business decision, and is sticking with it. A few 10's of people quitting over it short term is insignificant.
Most people who'd quit would have done so soon anyway, simple because nobody keeps paying for a game to ghost train. We pay to play!
The large majority of people will simply continue as they were, except now they'll keep their accounts active, providing income to CCP for service rendered.

Sorry if it shatters your world view, but quite frankly, the ppl whining in here don't matter as much as you think you do....

---

Your arguments have completely lost cohesion and now youre just spewing barely relevant nonsense about irrelevant points. You are completely missing any point mentioned and going off on a tangent totally unrelated. You have no idea how many people have quit or how much income has been lost due to this poorly thought out change to the game. Unless you do since your posts do contain a degree of the inept arrogance of the cccp devs.
...
Judging by your posts your business skill is as inept as your ability to argue a point and analyze a situation. You have such a hard-on for this being the 'greatest space MMO' then stop posting in a thread that youve already stated affects you none at all and go play the game and stop bothering the grownups.

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Originally by: Kerfira

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You do know that on average an EVE player stays in the game for only 7 months, right? Thus there'll ALWAYS be a huge number of new players./

Quote:

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Provide proof of both please.

The former may well be a lot easier, but there "ALWAYS be(ing) a huge number of new players?"

How long is always, in your mind?

Originally by: Soma Khan

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Originally by: Day Prichard

---

Edited by: Day Prichard on 27/11/2008 16:57:34
Over 5600+ responses and I have yet to see a response on why CCP is treating its customer base like idiots.

---

That certainly is an impressive number of alts. Somehow the voting thread in the Assembly Hall has only 154 votes against fixing the ghost training bug. That's pretty insignificant. Perhaps those of you who can't stop spewing leecher angst here are justified at feeling like idiots? 'Cause the "customer base" is too busy enjoying CCP's product to care.

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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As for my arguments, I have not seen anything that even remotely answers the questions that I posed. All I see is denial and posturing.

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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How about this one posted just a couple of posts ago: What does this tell about a person who can't stop ,for weeks, asking for an apology for something, even if, for the sake of this argument, an apology is required?

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Originally by: Kerfira

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Originally by: Squirrel

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You're so right. In fact, I'm starting to feel ashamed for laughing at Kerfira, he's obviously not all there in the head.

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Ahhh, the personal attack... A classic forum mistake

You do know that this is the ultimate sign on forums that your opponent is right? The personal attacks only start when you can't counter the arguments of the other person!
If you had good arguments, you'd go with those, but of.c. you don't

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Originally by: Kerfira

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If you knew anything about business at all, you'd know that the wise move is to stay out of the argument.

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Originally by: Gabriel Braun

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wth ppl, "I'm not playing anymore", "ccp lied to us", "omgwtf ccp?!?"

You're all behaving like 12 year olds. Do any of you actually run a business? I doubt it, at least for the ones who are moaning. Wth are you ghost training for anyway? play the ****** game ftw! ccp are right to knock ghost training on the head, but perhaps all of you who would like to continue training your characters while you're offline try another mmo... errrr... that's right, eve's still the only one without level grinding.

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Originally by: Jamburasca

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Good for you CCP! I dig this game and the way you run it. Free expansions, constant fixes and maximum fun. I have had excellent customer service any time that I have needed it. I don't care what the reasons for shutting down ghost training are, I'm glad it is ended.

I seriously doubt CCP has lost much money or sleep over this, nor should they. Many of you act like it is your right to use this product without paying for it. It doesn't matter what they said in past about whether it is a bug or not, it is their product and they will always reserve the right to change it any way they feel. I'm glad they had the sack to do it.

Are you crying about your economic situation? You think that CCP should give you free service because now you can't afford it? If you are playing a spacegame rather than taking care of yourselves or your families, then you might need an overhaul of your priorities. You had a good thing while it lasted, now get over yourselves and play the game or move on.

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Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher

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Yawn.

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Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher

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Quote:

---

You all act like you've never played Theme Park.

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Singlehandedly THE best comment ever.

If you were running for CSM and I wasted the time to vote for a CSM, You would have my vote.

I tip my empathy implant to you Squirrel

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Originally by: Von Domiki

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Originally by: Squirrrel

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Just pay, play and shut the hell up and roll with it. Only kids stamp their feet and complain. Adults suck it up or just leave. No one needs your so-called essential feedback. No one cares you're leaving. No one will care you're gone.

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That's all very reasonable, but what do you say about the issue of people that can't play for RL reasons, but wanting to keep up? Playing just to keep skill training is somewhat irrational. Not only CCP can count money well, some people too.

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Originally by: Nannu Who

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They want you to be in the game playing & enjoying it, not just training skills.

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Originally by: Squirrrel

---

Look, when are all you whiners - harping on about how CCP obviously don't give a damn about their customers - going to realise that CCP don't give a damn how you feel about this change, nor retaining you as customers?

etc
etc

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Originally by: Atnal

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I'd say I would have to agree on this. I completely don't mind at all that if you're not paying for a service then you shouldn't receive any benefit from it.

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Originally by: Atnal

---

Quote:

---

There was a way to progress a character in EVE without an active subscription

---

Well that seems to be a perfectly legit reason forceably stop training skills if you're not paying for the account.

---

Originally by: Atnal

---

Quote:

---

For example: You could set your long term skills to train, un-sub from the game, re-sub some time later and have your training completed when you came back.

---

That sounds that cheating CCP to me. But in anycase I'm not going to go riot over something that doesn't affect me personally. To be honest I was a little more miffed at the GTC change than this.

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Originally by: Atnal

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Quote:

---

In what other game can you cancel your account and still level up? How is it fair for someone who doesn't pay to skill up ? It's not

britzban mmorpg.com

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^^^ Basically sums it up for me.

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Originally by: Tasty Bit

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Originally by: Squirrrel

---

And while we're on the subject of old bugs:

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945010&page=1

4 years? Oh dear.

We've even got good old Ranger1 over there, touching his toes in support as per-usual.

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I daren't read that link you posted. I'm done with this game. 12 perma-paid accounts down the swanny, laters. o7

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Originally by: Squirrrel

---

And while we're on the subject of old bugs:

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945010&page=1

4 years? Oh dear.

We've even got good old Ranger1 over there, touching his toes in support as per-usual.

---

Hi Squirrrel, how's the girlfriend?

Still riding the dead horse I see.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Neither my friend. Just pointing out that you are STILL full of crap and a bitter little muppet.

I've fed your pet thread enough though, however amusing it might be.

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Originally by: something somethingdark

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once upon a time a little company called CCP had a simply awesome idea and called it EVE
unfortunatly from there it went downhill

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Originally by: Jinx Barker

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I think the massive and REAL exploiting of the game has taken precedent over the imaginary unfairness of Ghost Training.

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Originally by: OffBeaT

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Edited by: OffBeaT on 15/12/2008 07:34:02

Originally by: dropouthighschoolteacher

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Hi.

Unsubbed all my accounts.

I truly hope that CCP will understand my actions.

---

what kind of freaked out name is that... anyway to the point.

yeah, freaken right you should put a stop to this because its really getting stupid for this to be going on as long as it has. 2nd i am getting sick of seeing all these bought characters blobbing around with ships and skills they didn't put the time in to earn or the history they did not put into the game.

i gotta sit here and watch as i see players who have not put any history or time into this game fly ships i can only wait to do or have skills for. so they get to fast track the game get board then sell the guy again and it starts allover again. i say they should not have the right to enjoy this game this way as i don't and many others who put the time in and work a character over years as me and others have..

CCP SHOULD NOT OF EVER ALLOWED THE SALE OF ANY ACCOUNT!! This is wrong! wrong! wrong!

This is not making ccp any long term hard core players. they just end up with short term wannabees who might last a year or so until they get board and why not they can do anything at once without earning it..

i wont some TIME PLAYED BASE SKILLS that you cant buy and that are only earned buy time played in game..

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Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson

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The GOA support however is laughable (as it was for DAOC).

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Originally by: Nannu Who

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Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson

---

Given that CCP already implicitly allow the trading of real cash for ISK (via GTC codes), then this just reinforces the perception that CCP are now as commercial and cut-throat as the competition (i.e. Blizzard), and that they are just paying lip service to providing PAYING customers with decent service.

Add in the current sterling-euro exchange rate and Warhammer starts to get more and more attractive every day (as its currently about half the price per month).........

---

This isn't an attack at you, and I don't have experience with other MMORPG's, but you understand that eve is in actual fact the one game you don't have to pay a dime or nickel to play. I agree with the other issues you raised. But one comment raised an eyebrow.

Thanks to their GTC for ISK system, players who play the game can use in game currency to prolong their life in eve. I mean, isn't that pretty fantastic? You just use isk for your game time. Pretty sweet, and for that I shudder at the word that CCP are 'cut-throat' in their marketing approach in obtaining more revenue.

Smart eve players needn't pay a single $ bill to CCP.

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Originally by: Nannu Who

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Originally by: Roto Rooter

---

Originally by: Nannu Who

---

...you understand that eve is in actual fact the one game you don't have to pay a dime or nickel to play...players who play the game can use in game currency to prolong their life in eve. I mean, isn't that pretty fantastic? You just use isk for your game time. Pretty sweet, and for that I shudder at the word that CCP are 'cut-throat' in their marketing approach in obtaining more revenue.

Smart eve players needn't pay a single $ bill to CCP.

---

You do realize, don't you, that the GTCs bought by players for ISK first have to be bought by other players for RL money, right? Right? All that CCP cares about is that each GTC is fully paid for in RL money before it ever goes on the in-game market for ISK. The fact that it may be traded to another player doesn't change the fact that it was paid for.

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Your kiddin right!?!

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Originally by: Kerfira

---

I'm not the one who's been crying for 2 months now

At one point it was also possible to have multiple MWD drives. It was possible to mount Cruise Launchers on Kestrels. etc. etc.

CCP had a perfectly good reasons for removing those, and perfectly good reason to remove this feature too (that too many people were starting to abuse it), and they were FULLY in their right to do so (read the EULA you've agreed to).
As such, your complaint is really that you were stupid enough to sign that EULA without reading it. However, you did so voluntarily and without protest!
If you expected the world to stay static, you were possibly mistaken in that....

PS: This is probably going to go down in history as the longest group cry ever! I mean, the same 10-20 people continuing to reinforce each others sense of righteous anger is hilarious and the cause of much laughter

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Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

---

Now CCP removed the Bug/Feature and it is within their right to do so. They can make any change they want to their game and in the hard reality it does not matter all that much what you want, because CCP already decided to do so.

The only thing you get with your money is access to the game-server and all the features that CCP provides you. They can add a feature that you may like/dislike or they can remove a feature that you like/dislike, but the decision is not yours.

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Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

---

I will just quote something from the Eula in response, but all who complain should have read it themselves in advance.

Quote:

---

Upon establishing a valid Account, and subject to your continued compliance with the EULA, CCP grants you a limited, non-exclusive, revocable license to access the System, and to access and use the Game Content and User Content (each as defined below), in order to play EVE online.

---

Quote:

---

CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you. Periodically, CCP will require all users to migrate to new releases of the Software in order to continue accessing the System and playing EVE.

---

---

Originally by: OffBeaT

---

yea, ccp is doing the right think in this there is to many floating accounts now in eve + why should they get to cash in on five accounts they only payed half on and ccp lose on it.

pay you cheap skates and stop crying.
ccp needs the coin an i need a better eve that the cash will bring..

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Originally by: 8Z 6

---

Another brilliant observation from the clueless commandos.

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Originally by: OffBeaT

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Edited by: OffBeaT on 18/12/2008 05:43:30

Originally by: Squirrrel

---

Originally by: OffBeaT

---

yea, ccp is doing the right think in this there is to many floating accounts now in eve + why should they get to cash in on five accounts they only payed half on and ccp lose on it.

pay you cheap skates and stop crying.
ccp needs the coin an i need a better eve that the cash will bring..

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Oh god, here's another one!

Kamikaze..? You missed the target.

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a real gang banger like you would know right!
ill see you soon ! i haven't forgotten you..

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Originally by: OffBeaT

---

just come out when i call on you..

oh, you know you like the name!

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Originally by: Tasty Bit

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Originally by: Mint Royale

---

This threas is only 2,5 more pages away from disapearing due to a convinient SQL crash :)

However, I was pretty fun so see that pathetic 5 days for free offer ccp tossed at all the unsubbed accounts holder :)

I for one - as a response to this - got my mail adress removed from the newsletter!

But now I would really like to hear the spin of the cccp-fanboi brigade:
Fisrt you guys said unsubbed training is an exploit and unfair towards the ppl paying and playing 365 d/a.
How come cccp rewards the ppl who stopped their subscriptions with a full play 5 days for free offer?
Aren't you guys foaming out of your mouths already?

Oh and I really hope CCCP goes down like a wet bag of sand next year!

---

I am using the 5 days to harvest my datacores before the accounts go inactive again. Go me.

PS Thanks for facilitating that. o7

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Originally by: Victoria DuBlaidd

---

Originally by: Mint Royale

---

Edited by: Mint Royale on 19/12/2008 19:43:02
edit: WTF horrible spelling! :(

This thread is only 2,5 more pages away from disapearing due to a convinient SQL crash :)

However, it was pretty fun so see that pathetic 5 days for free offer ccp tossed at all the unsubbed account holders :)

I for one - as a response to this - got my mail adress removed from the newsletter!

But now I would really like to hear the spin of the cccp-fanboi brigade:
First you guys said unsubbed training is an exploit and unfair towards the ppl paying and playing 365 d/a.
How come cccp rewards the ppl who stopped their subscriptions with a full play 5 days for free offer?
Aren't you guys foaming out of your mouths already?

Oh and I really hope CCCP goes down like a wet bag of sand next year!

---

maybe someone has to give account to shareholders and it's coming up shortly? give 5 free days and then put something up that says "we have X active accounts" and just neglect to put that Y of them are because of the 5 free days...

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Originally by: Tate Aoko

---

Apparently you're the problem for CCP. And, apparently, so am I. But you can sure see where they are coming from right? ****, it must suck to have all these customers who keep finding reasons to come back.

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Originally by: Oliver Price

---

Wah, I can't train skills for free anymore. Wah, I can't afford 8 alts anymore, and have to find people in game that can produce the services I need. Wah, CCP is really messing us over, I want to quit. Wah, wah, wah..

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

Originally by: Roto Rooter

---

Originally by: Oliver Price

---

Wah, I can't train skills for free anymore.

---

Ah, another clueless poster who didn't bother to read the thread. Unsubbed training was not free.

---

The part outside your subscription period sure was. No amount of thread reading makes a difference to that. Yes - you started your skill withing the paid period. Then accumulated SP during that period - all paid for - and then sub ended - and any SP beyond that were indeed - free.

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

Yeah - it is *possible* that this thing backfires - though don't assume so just because some people here say so on the forum. Even an epic threadnought like this involves only a small fraction of the player base. Most players don't read the forums much if at all. Some percentage of the playerbase will still not even know what GT was. Any new players of recent weeks never knew it was ever there and wouldn't expect it to be.

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

To the guy above who won because he's playing less after deactivating some of his 9 accounts. That's great - win everywhere. :-) I win too - because I find it annoying when people have a zillion accounts (not that I would keep anybody from doing so - just don't like it).

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

Regarding the patch note - doesn't prove what you think.
GT never was a bug in the sense that a planned feature does not work. It's just a (likely originally unintended) sideeffect that CCP choose not to bother about to prevent for a long time - because yes - preventing GT probably needed a few lines of additional code and as long as people didn't use it much CCP shrugged it off.

---

Originally by: Glengrant

---

It's easy to imagine that some people paid 1-2 months to train a bunch of base skills - then pay alternate months to train high skills and then trade/sell off the char.

---

Originally by: Glengrant

---

I also don't think that CCP would let pride get into the way if this really ****es too many people off. It's not a big deal.
"Dear EVE players,

we finally ended GT because we noticed that some players abused this to farm characters in a way that wasn't fair to us and the rest of the players. But we underestimated how much this change also affects our loyal players. We listened to what you had to say and decided to re-introduce GT as an officialy supported feature now."
No problem at all. Easy spin

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

I don't get what the big deal is though. Either this really has a lot of effect because you guys did it a lot - then CCP is right and can easily take the hit from a few lost accounts to gain the many extra months that will now be paid.
Or it was a rare thing - then CCP would have been wrong to invest anything in this change - but it would also just affect you guys once in a blue moon and this threadnought would be the most silly waste of time.

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

You are not paying for a particular number of days - you are paying for a typical month - that includes downtime and patch days. You're not getting back money for february either. ;-)

---

Originally by: Glengrant

---

And why does anybody even worry about 1 extra day (because of a lost patch day or whatever)? That's something like 50 cents. All of us have wasted 50 cents many times on stupid stuff (apologies to any players who might come from countries where Ç/$ exchange for a lot of local money). Any starving students will likely be already on GTCs.
We're talking *literally* about small change here.

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

And if anybody multiplies that by getting 9 accounts - that's your choice. And while CCP may drop a tear about closing some of these accounts down - I like about people getting rid of alt accounts.

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Originally by: Chani Fedaykin

---

gratz to glengrant btw - you seem to be the first 'pro-unpaid-training-removal' person that is able to articulate himself properly. i dont have to reply to this post however thanks to squirrel (as usually)

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Originally by: Violet Cobra

---

Originally by: Carl Druffee

---

But now I start to see some logic, planned or coincidense.

If you plan on providing a lot of those new short-term offers to get players back into the game, latest a free 5-day trial, valid until january 20th. Mine just expired, so I got a new offer via email, 30 days for $9.95 for reactivation, also valid until january 20th.

With these offers coming every so often, I can understand that CCP don't want to have people being able to train on expired accounts. However, I don't think this is exactly what they planned, but I can live with it, if these kind of offers continue in the future.

---

I'd rather ask CCP WHY they're throwing out so many short-term offers on all those inactive accounts. Probably it's only because of the situation, that many people have closed their accounts and the overall numbers of active accounts gone down continuously within the last months.

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Originally by: Glengrant

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Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
b) Apparent lack of action on the starbase exploit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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That horse has been flogged beyond dead already. IMHO it's safe to assume that restoring old DBs and looking through mountains of data to follow money trails and verifying what's legit or not is a time-consuming activity.

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

Originally by: Oilio

---

Well, that's my last character subscription that runs out in a couple of hours. Won't be able to post anymore, but will still read the forums

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Why bother?

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Originally by: Squirrrel

---

Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson

---

I guess people who pay for something don't like being lied to or patronised as if they were mindless children.

---

Nobody likes that. But don't tell me that you really think CCP is a big offender in this regard.
Almost every ad I see on TV or in cinemas is an insult.
That washing powder is really making my clothes whiter or more colorful and smell that much better than any other detergent before?
Food never looks as tasty as on the cover.

---

Originally by: Squirrrel

---

Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson

---

The big deal is that they didn't just call it like it was from the beginning.

---

I agree with the latter part - but still don't get what the big deal is. Also I'm convinced that this thread would still be here regardless of what they said.
OTOH nobody would think anything is wrong or unusual if GT never worked from the beginning.
It was there for years - then they shut it down. The reasons given don't really make a difference.
It's just something to cling to for lack of better arguments.

---

Originally by: Glengrant

---

A company get bigger it gets a dedicated marketing department - and they just can't help themselves. They need to try to spin everything in the best sounding way they can come up with.
I believe I just have more realistic expectations what the baseline is here. I judge companies not on some ideal everybody fells short of - but a reasonable standard that some can manage to exceed, while others fail even that.

Perhaps CCP in the end is not much better than usual - but I don't see how they are worse than typical marketing bla bla.

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

It's an MMOG. I dislike it when people several accounts to fill all roles (capital + cyno, miner + hauler, tackler + damage) instead of having mates to complement with.

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Originally by: Glengrant

---

Yes - I wrote too much in this thread. :-)

Reducing reply rate and wordage now.

have fun

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Originally by: Alice Writer

---

My sincerest hope that CCP will listen to the community and bring GT back.

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Originally by: Fawziyyah

---

Happy new year to all of you.

Hopes of CCP to bring back off sub. training...

See you all next year.

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