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The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.15 14:45:00 - [31] Edited by: The Djego on 15/10/2008 14:48:42 Originally by: Vrabac Originally by: Valea Silpha The big problem with the deimos is its lack of armor buffer. Hm? 40-45k ehp is as good as a hac can get. Only sacrilege can get more out of conceptually similar setup. Deimos does roughly equal dps to brutix while having 30% less tank and 50% more agility and speed, if we are comparing plated setups. Of course the deimos one often sees on killboards, with rep + eanm + dc tank is crap, but that's because the setup is bad not the ship. It instapops of course, but so does any ship with such a stupid setup. It has it's role and it's good at it, issue is the role isnt to orbit at 23km spitting barrage at stuff to get into killmail while pretending to be useful by keeping a point on primary, it can be dangerous and it can often lead to losing the ship, so it's popularity naturally isnt very high. I would disagree here, if you plate and Armor Rig a Deimos you throw away the Agility/Speed advantage it got. In this case it¦s just a overexpensive Brutix with less tank and a bit more range, can¦t realy catch anything or escape things. Im not talking about Nano it, this isn¦t working realy well to but reducing speed even more destroyes his hole advantage(to actualy get in Web Range in the first place fast). Still would not agree that the Deimos is a good gang ship in any way, other Hacs do this better(exept 1-300 DPS but we talking aobut gangs here) with less dieing and less MWDing around just to get in comabat range where you get webbed, Neuted, and full DPS of AKs and Blasters to. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2008.10.15 16:03:00 - [32] Originally by: The Djego if you plate and Armor Rig a Deimos you throw away the Agility/Speed advantage it got I was comparing plated/rigged deimos to plated/rigged brutix. Advantage is considerable. Purely active tanked (that is plateless) brutix is mostly a joke ship and not to be taken seriously. Plate and armor rigs will of course reduce speed but, and we all agree deimos needs to be in the thick of action, it's an imo needed way of increasing its chance of survival: it prolongs its life way more than it reduces the speed, which is still considerable and adequate for it's needs. You're right about mwding though. But there again deimos has an advantage over brutix in form of faloff bonus, with faction ammo this actually helps a lot. It can get into position faster while having broader area from which it's effective, that's definitely an advantage. Oh just one more thing, I'm talking about purely tanked situations here. There is no doubt that blasters and gallente in general except the nano ishtar suck in the world of vagabonds and rapiers. If majority of the gang is nanoed than deimos that's part of it obviously has little hope of staying alive. But this is again role issue.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.15 17:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Vrabac Originally by: The Djego if you plate and Armor Rig a Deimos you throw away the Agility/Speed advantage it got I was comparing plated/rigged deimos to plated/rigged brutix. Advantage is considerable. Purely active tanked (that is plateless) brutix is mostly a joke ship and not to be taken seriously. Plate and armor rigs will of course reduce speed but, and we all agree deimos needs to be in the thick of action, it's an imo needed way of increasing its chance of survival: it prolongs its life way more than it reduces the speed, which is still considerable and adequate for it's needs. Well yes you will need a buffer in this kind of fights, but in general if you need this kind of buffer you will be dead anyway if multiple Targets shooting you. The Deimos goes about 2km/s with some hardwirings, and no Plates/Armor Rigs. This is quite a good speed to catch the usaly targets like Cruisers or low Skilled BCs, unnaoed Frigs, even some Nano ships with the overheat MWD/Web trick. Even if you increase the HP buffer, the ship is still helpless against most Nano Fittings, Neuts, most EW, and HP Buffer Tanks of BCs and BS in his fighting style. So I mostly prefere to build up at the strenght(speed and high DPS) to get it into a good predator for fast solo kills or envading Blobs instead of trying to reduce one downside with the fitting while gimping is¦t strenght by it. Yust saying Buffer Tanked BCs do the same job for less, ofc the Deimos still got a slight range and speed advantage but is it worth the 120-150 M after Fitting per pop in this way over a 50 M(including Rigs) BC? Originally by: Vrabac You're right about mwding though. But there again deimos has an advantage over brutix in form of faloff bonus, with faction ammo this actually helps a lot. It can get into position faster while having broader area from which it's effective, that's definitely an advantage. Yes it helps, mostly when using Null and Neutrons, with smaller Blasters and Antimatter it is still web range(a bit better at 5-10km but this is mostly not the range you want to fight your target the hole fight). Originally by: Vrabac Oh just one more thing, I'm talking about purely tanked situations here. There is no doubt that blasters and gallente in general except the nano ishtar suck in the world of vagabonds and rapiers. If majority of the gang is nanoed than deimos that's part of it obviously has little hope of staying alive. But this is again role issue. Well if you run a against a tanked Gang you usaly have to face fare more DPS than against a Nano Gang(Slugfest) so your HP buffer won¦t last this long while it also takes longer to tear thrue Tanks or Buffers. You are right about the Nano gang, it would only make the Deimos a better primary choice in the end. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.15 18:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Merin Ryskin BB: no. CS: no. BC: no. HAC: no. HIC: no. Recon: no. T1 cruiser: yes. AF: yes. Stealth bomber: no. Inty: no. T1 frigate: yes. EAF: no. I'm wondering what stuff your drinking, what stuff your smoking .... or what game your playing.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.15 18:19:00 - [35] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Merin Ryskin BB: no. CS: no. BC: no. HAC: no. HIC: no. Recon: no. T1 cruiser: yes. AF: yes. Stealth bomber: no. Inty: no. T1 frigate: yes. EAF: no. I'm wondering what stuff your drinking, what stuff your smoking .... or what game your playing. It looks realistic enough to me. What parts do you disagree with?
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.15 18:26:00 - [36] Originally by: Gypsio III HAC: no. Recon: no. Stealth bomber: no. EAF: no. I disagree with these. Its pretty damn far from black and white to ask if the deimos can take on these. Anything coming close to 10km, or 13km even, is better to have a backup plan.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.15 18:35:00 - [37] Edited by: Gypsio III on 15/10/2008 18:35:03 I think the point is not that the Deimos can't kill those ships if it can tackle them, but that it can't realistically tackle them with any degree of reliability. HAC - will either kite it or be too far off Recon - likewise Inty - yeah same again EAF - and again Stealth bomber - range and cloak
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.15 18:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 15/10/2008 18:35:03 I think the point is not that the Deimos can't kill those ships if it can tackle them, but that it can't realistically tackle them with any degree of reliability. HAC - will either kite it or be too far off Recon - likewise Inty - yeah same again EAF - and again Stealth bomber - range and cloak HAC - Not every HAC is a nano HAC, even there it is still easy enough to run away for the Deimos if he cant get a web on. Deimos is one of the fastest out of factory. Recon - very very fitting dependent. Falcons ... well ok cant do crap. For the rest, it all depends on fittings ... unless we are only talking about 3x mag stab neutron Deimos ... which i rarely fly. Inty - Oh, Im tackled ... Big deal. You have plenty of time to have him make a mistake ... or run outta cap. EAF - same Stealth Bomber - It wont be able to play the cloaking game long enough to kill you ... by then you should be pretty close to him, if not uncloaking him. IMO, anybody who can answer the above questions by a yes/no type of answer needs to get more in game pvp experience.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:04:00 - [39] Originally by: The Djego Well yes you will need a buffer in this kind of fights, but in general if you need this kind of buffer you will be dead anyway if multiple Targets shooting you. You seem to be making an assumption that, while deimos needs to get into web range to kill it's target, it somehow has better chances of getting killed than the target, and they are obviously in each other's web range. As i said before, in a gang with ew/logistic support this can work very well (been there done that). Multiple deimoses will kill their targets very fast while being kept alive by support ships. If opposition has similar disposition we're looking at a so called "good fight" and getting killed in a good fight is by no means indication of a bad ship. As for others making a list of what it can or can not do, it's all pretty pointless. It's cant kill a falcon... lol. What one ship can kill a falcon really? Oh i know i know maybe lachesis if it locks first. It can't kill a curse either, damn that means the ship sucks! Harb cant kill curse either, mega cant kill curse, geddon, abaddon, zealot, vaga, rapier, hurricane.... ummm seems like all these ships are diemostes and suck balls. Pitching individual ships against other individual ships in a rock/paper/scissor world isn't something that has much meaning. Ships usually have their role in a greater scale, if you're facing only a partially conscious single opponent he'll simply refuse to fight you if you have the anti-him ship. I never managed to kill a vaga with a curse simply because I was never allowed to try, same goes for any other type of "ship A is uber against ship B" sort of situation unless the guy is by some weird chance in a belt meaning he's afk, unlucky or stupid. To sum it up, my oppinion is that deimos is a good damage dealer in a proper gang. Is it cost effective? Not really, pretty much like most tanked hacs because battlecruisers are cheaper and less skill intensive and, in case of tier 2s, even way stronger in most characteristics. Still with gank plated deimos you could give a dual repping BC a nasty surprise, but that's a huge gamble since you cant know his fit until you get into his tank. Solo however it would be very vulnerable, because of neutralizing mostly. ECM is something that will kill any solo ship so it's not worth special mention. Good thing for solo is 50m drone bay, 5 ecm drones are always useful... but I still wouldnt solo with it.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:16:00 - [40] Edited by: Gypsio III on 16/10/2008 11:17:49 Quote: To sum it up, my opinion is that Deimos is a good damage dealer in a proper gang. I just don't see it, myself. It delivers sub-BC levels of DPS at point-blank range, and dies laughably quickly when shot at. Its mobility advantage over a Myrm or Brutix is fairly inconsequential, and blasters themselves are subpar in a larger gang where you have to MWD to every target. If you have a warp-in point such that you don't have to MWD to your target, then the mobility advantage is even less meaningful.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:25:00 - [41] Originally by: Gypsio III It delivers sub-BC levels of DPS at point-blank range, and dies laughably quickly when shot at. Well over 700, 2km optimal, 7km faloff with ions and faction ammo. That's sub BC? It's probably only hac that can do (high) BC level of dps. Sure hurricane can do over 800, but with worse limitations in optimal, faloff AND agility/speed that's important when you have to mwd around as you said yourself, since for that damage it will be needing hail. Not to mention that hurricane is in almost every regard a superior ship (as I already said before). And deimos dies as fast as any other tanked hac does. Try thinking of a better low slot concept.
Varesk	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:31:00 - [42] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The Deimos is spared the title of "worst HAC" only because the Muninn is so unbelievably horrible that the only plausible explanation is that someone in CCP's design team wanted revenge on the Minmatar players after dying to a Vagabond. Muninn horrible? LMAO I think you and Liang should go married.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:51:00 - [43] Originally by: Vrabac Well over 700, 2km optimal, 7km faloff with ions and faction ammo. That's sub BC? It's probably only hac that can do (high) BC level of dps. Sure hurricane can do over 800, but with worse limitations in optimal, faloff AND agility/speed that's important when you have to mwd around as you said yourself, since for that damage it will be needing hail. Not to mention that hurricane is in almost every regard a superior ship (as I already said before). And deimos dies as fast as any other tanked hac does. Try thinking of a better low slot concept. Harbinger can do 760 DPS at 7.5 km, Drake can do 618 DPS at ~19 km, Myrm can do 824 DPS at 2.3 km. It's not that the Deimos isn't effective in the right situations - it's more that in those situations, a BC would be more effective.
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:26:00 - [44] I've seen from one alliance's killboard (think it was pandemic legion) that they used rail deimos's in big gangs of 'sniper' hacs (Munins and zealots) to seemingly great effect, has anyone else had experience using a railgun fit?
Elias Modron Rage For Order Nihil-Obstat	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:52:00 - [45] Edited by: Elias Modron on 16/10/2008 12:54:11 I bought a Deimos and an Ishtar a couple months ago. I have plenty of kills with the Ishtar, and none with the Deimos. I've even had it shipped to 0.0 in the hope I can use out there a bit more, but my interceptors and Arazu are proving more useful in gangs. What is the viability of a Deimos fitted with railguns to be used as a mid-long range anti-support sniper? I know the it does omgwtf 700 DPS with blasters, but the bonuses apply to railguns too. If all I can kill with blasters is T1 cruisers and frigates, I might as well do it from 60km away so I can escape. -edit- just saw the above poster posed the exact same question.
Glassback Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:57:00 - [46] I beg to differ my friend
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.10.16 13:04:00 - [47] Originally by: Glassback I beg to differ my friend Mega with T1 guns/drones and no damage mods. PvE fit Harb. Rapier - yeah, nice one. Was a fail for rapier, not the win for deimos, though PvE fit Drake. Another lol-PvE fit Drake. A Rail/Cruise fit Mega. So.. basically you got one nice kill on that out of the 6 you linked. And that's pretty much proving the point that Deimos can't take much on.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.16 13:10:00 - [48] That seems to be a badly-fit sniper, two terribly-fit Drakes and a badly-fit Harbinger. The Rapier kill is nice, although I don't think you can really count on being able to do that regularly, and the Mega kill is also nice, although neither fit seems ideal. On the other hand, I could link the mails of the Deimos that I've killed in my Drake while taking sentry fire, or the one that took just 13 volleys of HAMs, or the one whose shield buffer lasted longer than his armour tank.
Zanzaa Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.16 14:31:00 - [49] What's wrong with putting 200mm rails and a 800mm plate on a deimos if you're going out with a gang? =============================== /me points at Mission runners. /me laughs. /me points.
Fistme	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:09:00 - [50] With an 800mm plate and a couple rigs + neutrons you can get some great results. 5.5k+ armor with pretty good resists and 700+ dps is not all bad. As far as the Brutix vrs Deimos argument, Having flown both recently and over the past couple years i can tell you that they are very different ships. Deimos is ALLOT faster, has more dps and has much better range. Brutix has a big tank advantage and that's about it.
Zanzaa Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:19:00 - [51] Yup, and if you put rails you get drastically less damage but then again the same ships people are touting also get that same poor damage. If your putting 400dps out with a Cerberus at 30km and laughing at the Deimos 700dps at 5km Why would you snide at 400dps rail-fitted Deimos that can hit out to 30km easily? The same 400dps fitted Deimos has resist mods and a 800mm plate so he's got a healthy chunk of HP and don't forget he's zippy even with a plate. Granted you can do close to 2x the damage if you fit blasters but why do people act as if the Deimos CAN'T shoot out past 5km when it's perfectly possible to fit rails for situations where you want the range. I know I repeated myself a few times just it leaves me confused. =============================== /me points at Mission runners. /me laughs. /me points.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:23:00 - [52] Originally by: Fistme Deimos is ALLOT faster, has more dps and has much better range. Brutix has a big tank advantage and that's about it. I'm not sure how you're fitting a Brutix to have less DPS than a Deimos.
Fistme	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:55:00 - [53] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Fistme Deimos is ALLOT faster, has more dps and has much better range. Brutix has a big tank advantage and that's about it. I'm not sure how you're fitting a Brutix to have less DPS than a Deimos. As always the forum is full of EFT warriors. An EFT warrior assumes that the listed dps in EFT is the Ingame damage that the ship will put out. When it comes to blasters in particular you need to start taking a look at range of weapons, speed of ship, lock on time, acceleration ect. when trying to determine how much dmg that ship is going to inflict in a fight. If I fit a brutix for max gank with neutrons it's going to have a bigger EFT dps than a Deimos with a similar fit. We all know this, however it seems that we don't all know that the Brutix has shorter range, has a longer lock on time, and moves a hell of allot slower. A Deimos will be firing first because of fall off advantage, and it will be at it's optimal much quicker. If you're talking about a 1v1 slugfest this may not matter because the time at which both parties are at their optimal is exaggerated. Now in a small fleet situation things don't exactly work like that, targets drop in 20 seconds and are often 15+km apart. This is where the Deimos shines.
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:03:00 - [54] Originally by: Fistme Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Fistme Deimos is ALLOT faster, has more dps and has much better range. Brutix has a big tank advantage and that's about it. I'm not sure how you're fitting a Brutix to have less DPS than a Deimos. As always the forum is full of EFT warriors. An EFT warrior assumes that the listed dps in EFT is the Ingame damage that the ship will put out. When it comes to blasters in particular you need to start taking a look at range of weapons, speed of ship, lock on time, acceleration ect. when trying to determine how much dmg that ship is going to inflict in a fight. If I fit a brutix for max gank with neutrons it's going to have a bigger EFT dps than a Deimos with a similar fit. We all know this, however it seems that we don't all know that the Brutix has shorter range, has a longer lock on time, and moves a hell of allot slower. A Deimos will be firing first because of fall off advantage, and it will be at it's optimal much quicker. If you're talking about a 1v1 slugfest this may not matter because the time at which both parties are at their optimal is exaggerated. Now in a small fleet situation things don't exactly work like that, targets drop in 20 seconds and are often 15+km apart. This is where the Deimos shines. So true. And while we're at it on EFT idiots, let's not forget the missile users who complain about DPS with guns forgetting that in-game DPS from guns is highly varable not only due to fall-off but also hit quality.
Rob Z0mbie	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:06:00 - [55] tank it! and fit a cyno! roam solo within capital jump range, and when you scramble\web something, pop the cyno! \(o.0)/
VoiceInTheDesert Gallente Diplomatic Disruption	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:14:00 - [56] I have flown both extensively, so trust me when I say this: Brutix > Deimos And you can buy/rig two bruts for the price of a deimos.
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:18:00 - [57] Edited by: Corwain on 16/10/2008 18:19:19 Quote: 2008.01.29 19:36:00 Victim: Alliance: NONE Corp: Destroyed: Myrmidon System: Alal Security: 0.4 Damage Taken: 29410 Involved parties: Name: Janus Duo (laid the final blow) Security: -2.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: True Foundation Ship: Deimos Weapon: Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Damage Done: 28377 Name: Blood Collector / Blood Raiders Damage Done: 1033 Destroyed items: Sensor Booster II Void M, Qty: 376 Warp Disruptor II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Qty: 2 Medium 'Ghoul' Energy Siphon I Cap Booster 800, Qty: 8 (Cargo) X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Medium Capacitor Booster II Medium Armor Repairer II, Qty: 2 Ogre I (Drone Bay) Hammerhead I, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay) Dropped items: Null M, Qty: 1088 (Cargo) Void M, Qty: 141 Medium Nosferatu II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Qty: 2 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Energized Reactive Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Scan Resolution Hammerhead I, Qty: 4 (Drone Bay) He was using T2 drones on me even though he had some T1 drones in bay/cargo. Funny thing is: Quote: 2008.01.29 19:36:00 Victim: Janus Duo Alliance: NONE Corp: True Foundation Destroyed: Deimos System: Alal Security: 0.4 Damage Taken: 11524 Involved parties: Name: (laid the final blow) Security: -4.6 Alliance: NONE Corp: Ship: Myrmidon Weapon: Ogre II Damage Done: 11204 Name: Blood Collector / Blood Raiders Damage Done: 320 Destroyed items: Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Dark Blood Copper Tag (Cargo) Armor Explosive Hardener II Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Exotic Dancers, Qty: 10 (Cargo) Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 128 Warp Disruptor II (Cargo) Heavy Ion Blaster II, Qty: 4 Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I (Cargo) Shield Recharger II (Cargo) Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Dark Blood Microwave S (Cargo) Medium Armor Repairer II Ancillary Current Router I, Qty: 2 Dropped items: Warp Disruptor II Null M, Qty: 1025 (Cargo) Shield Power Relay II (Cargo) Large Shield Extender II (Cargo) Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 190 Heavy Ion Blaster II Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 29 (Cargo) Damage Control II Shield Recharger II (Cargo) Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile, Qty: 638 (Cargo) 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II (Cargo) Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 1702 (Cargo) That's right, we final blowed each other in the same instant...two pods sitting by two wrecks loling and gging in local. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:40:00 - [58] Originally by: Fistme As always the forum is full of EFT warriors. An EFT warrior assumes that the listed dps in EFT is the Ingame damage that the ship will put out. When it comes to blasters in particular you need to start taking a look at range of weapons, speed of ship, lock on time, acceleration ect. when trying to determine how much dmg that ship is going to inflict in a fight. Very true. Let's look at optimal range, shall we? Oh fancy that, they're exactly the same. Falloff of the Deimos is 3 km greater, which is pretty insignificant, isn't it? Lock-time is inconsequential if we're assuming that both ships lock before getting into firing range. To make lock time meaningful you need to start in firing range - whereupon the mobility advantage of the Deimos is irrelevant, and its weak tank is rapidly exposed. Acceleration and speed is a good point, although the Deimos cripples its advantage hereby having to fit a plate if it wants any sort of tank, which doesn't apply to the Brutix or Myrm obviously. But there's a catch - as you point out, if the time to get into optimal is really important, then you don't want a blaster ship at all. All in all, the situations where a Deimos is a better choice than a Brutix or Myrm are those where really you don't want any of the three.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.16 19:59:00 - [59] Originally by: Gypsio III All in all, the situations where a Deimos is a better choice than a Brutix or Myrm are those where really you don't want any of the three. Really ? Can you explain because this doesnt make any sense to me.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:09:00 - [60] By that I mean situations where the mobility advantage of the Deimos is important - important in getting into or out of range, that sort of thing. In those situation, the Deimos is certainly a better choice than a Myrm or Brutix. However, in a situation where mobility and the effective projection of DPS is important, then a Deimos isn't an ideal choice either - because really you'll want something faster, or something that can project DPS better, such as a Sacrilege, Cerberus or Zealot. Or a sentry-Ishtar, or even a rail-Deimos.

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