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Yocus
Minmatar Fleets of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.10.14 09:20:00 -
[1]
I've been attacked (and destroyed) twice by players .
Well, it's not a complaint, PvP is good, but I want to understand the game. Not really fun been killed in 10 seconds, without even a chance to shoot them back. So I hope somebody could bring some light to my ignorance.
I assume they used warp disruptors or warp scramblers, as I was not able to warp.
I have read that to avoid warp disruptors and scramblers I should fit at least 2 Warp Core Stabilizers. But it makes my range going from 72.5Km to 28.38Km. Fair enough, but then seems to me that attackers are in advantage to defenders, right?
I mean, if I want to attack somebody, I just have to warp in cloaking, with my ship (even a destroyer) fitting a warp disruptor, and then attack even a BS. The poor guy will not be able to warp neither to even lock target on me before I smash him. How can it be possible? It's a bit unbalanced. There is really no way to avoid such an attack like that? I guess it is, but I'm just a noob
Please, some advices and help to understand the game? Thanks a lot.
=-= CEO of Fleets of Aesir =-= |
Adaera
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Posted - 2008.10.14 09:34:00 -
[2]
First up, sorry if I missed it but what are you flying? Second - if it's a combat ship, never fit warp core stabs. They ruin your targetting and they can be overwhelmed by multiple scramblers
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.14 09:39:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Yocus I've been attacked (and destroyed) twice by players .
Well, it's not a complaint, PvP is good, but I want to understand the game. Not really fun been killed in 10 seconds, without even a chance to shoot them back. So I hope somebody could bring some light to my ignorance.
I assume they used warp disruptors or warp scramblers, as I was not able to warp.
I have read that to avoid warp disruptors and scramblers I should fit at least 2 Warp Core Stabilizers. But it makes my range going from 72.5Km to 28.38Km. Fair enough, but then seems to me that attackers are in advantage to defenders, right?
I mean, if I want to attack somebody, I just have to warp in cloaking, with my ship (even a destroyer) fitting a warp disruptor, and then attack even a BS. The poor guy will not be able to warp neither to even lock target on me before I smash him. How can it be possible? It's a bit unbalanced. There is really no way to avoid such an attack like that? I guess it is, but I'm just a noob
Please, some advices and help to understand the game? Thanks a lot.
It's a complex question. You could join our in-game channel AU_PVP_UNIVERSITY and ask there for some specific answers.
Alternatively, check our website for our next PvP Basic course - where all this and more is explained in detail and practiced in real combat. Ask in the channel about courses, they're very popular and we get really good feedback from our past students.
Essentially you don't want to use warp core stabs on a combat ship as it ruins your targeting. WCS are for courier jobs where you want to escape rather than engage.
What you want to do is take advantage of your ship's best features, while exploiting the other's weaknesses. e.g. a destroyer aligns rather quick, while a battleship takes time ot lock - you should be gone before they get a lock. BS can't track fast moving targets that are orbiting in close. There are many variables to consider.
A single destroyer can't take a battleship, but they can lock one down long enough for the rest of the fleet to arrive.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Yocus
Minmatar Fleets of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.10.14 10:39:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Yocus on 14/10/2008 10:39:32 Thanks for the replies. I understand that Core stabilizer are not a good idea for combat ships.
About the ships involved; I think 1st time they attacked my BS with destroyers (5 people). But I don't really remember.
Last time I was flying a cruiser (you can see the killboard here)
So, they only way to avoid an attack (I mean an attack when 3+ players are against a single ship) is to run? But how? If they use warp disruptors?
=-= CEO of Fleets of Aesir =-= |
Yocus
Minmatar Fleets of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.10.14 10:43:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka Alternatively, check our website for our next PvP Basic course - where all this and more is explained in detail and practiced in real combat. Ask in the channel about courses, they're very popular and we get really good feedback from our past students.
Thanks a lot, I'll have a look.
=-= CEO of Fleets of Aesir =-= |
Connner
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.14 11:06:00 -
[6]
Judging by that killmail you could start by fitting your ship better. First of all a thorax gets a damage boost to hybrid turrets, so you want to fit those. Also, if you feel you're not ready for PvP yet, you might want to (for the time being) stay in systems with a security rating of .5 or higher. There are many roaming gangs that cruise through .4-.1 systems looking for things to kill.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.14 11:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yocus
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka Alternatively, check our website for our next PvP Basic course - where all this and more is explained in detail and practiced in real combat. Ask in the channel about courses, they're very popular and we get really good feedback from our past students.
Thanks a lot, I'll have a look.
Feel free to send your corp mates along as well if you like it. There's no requirement to join and we have a strict policy of not recruiting students who are in player corps. We have quite a number of satisfied corporate customers. ______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.14 11:37:00 -
[8]
I took a quick look at that kill-mail.
Looks like you got hit by a roaming gang of destroyers.
Here's a few tips: 1) you've got part shield and part armour tank. You're better off fitting Gallente ships (in general) with an armour tank. you should rarely, if ever mix tanks - and certainly not on a combat ship. 2) you should fit a Thorax with hybrid guns as that's where the bonuses are. 3) if you're going to low sec, watch local like a hawk. Make some safe spots and stay aligned to one of them. As soon as you see hostiles (pretty much anyone you don't know) in local, warp off. If you don't have a cloak, then you need to get out of the system or into a station - unless you know how to make good safe spots and avoid getting probed out. 4) in general your setup seems a bit hodge-podge. Some mining gear, some combat, no real EWAR - you have a web for rats I assume, but nothing that's going to get you out of trouble like an ECM burst or remote sensor damp. 5) if you're going to low-sec, you should assume you're going to get some PvP action and need to fit accordingly. 6) don't wait for destroyers to show on grid, you're already dead because they'll lock you long before you can warp, unless you're aligned and at speed.
And a BS isn't much of a match for 5 destroyers, unless you know what you're doing......even then it might be hard to extract yourself or kill them. Gangs are quite capable of taking out multiple battleships in a single engagement with only destroyers and/or frigates. A little EWAR, some close orbiting and the combined DPS of 5 destroyers will beat most battleships.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Yocus
Minmatar Fleets of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:20:00 -
[9]
Thanks a lot to everybody for your posts.
It really helped me to understand that my ships was badly fitted. I'll try to follow your advises.
=-= CEO of Fleets of Aesir =-= |
Yocus
Minmatar Fleets of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Connner First of all a thorax gets a damage boost to hybrid turrets, so you want to fit those.
Blasters or Railguns? I don't really understand the difference.
=-= CEO of Fleets of Aesir =-= |
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Yocus
Originally by: Connner First of all a thorax gets a damage boost to hybrid turrets, so you want to fit those.
Blasters or Railguns? I don't really understand the difference.
Every weapon has a short and long range version e.g rockets/assault missiles/torpedoes (short), standards/heavies/cruise (long).
With hybrids, Blasters are short range/high damage. Rails are longer range/lower damage.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:45:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Yocus
Originally by: Connner First of all a thorax gets a damage boost to hybrid turrets, so you want to fit those.
Blasters or Railguns? I don't really understand the difference.
Blasters have extremely short range, but also very high damage. Railguns are longer-range, and notably lower damage. Broadly speaking, blasters are preferred for general PvP setups (because you're often at close range anyway so that you can web and warp scramble the guy) - the exception being if you specifically fit a sniping setup so that you can hit the target from long-range, while your buddies hold him down. Consequently solo ships will 99% of the time take advantage of the raw damage of blasters.
If you're doing missions, you don't need to warp scramble the rats, plus there's a good number of them all spread out, so the extra range of railguns is much better than the tedium of having to slowboat into blaster range for every... single... rat.
Originally by: Yocus So, they only way to avoid an attack (I mean an attack when 3+ players are against a single ship) is to run? But how? If they use warp disruptors?
Yes - this is exactly it, and an important concept for new players to grasp. PvP in lowsec is like an iceberg - 90% of the engagement has already happened by the time the players show up. During this time they will have been using their onboard scanner to notice a potential target nearby, pinpoint your location, check local to see how many pilots are likely to be with you, show info on your character to see your age and corp (and if you're young, your starting corp gives a good estimation of what skills and temperament you have),weighed up the situation and decided that they can engage with little risk to themselves. Only then do they actually warp to your belt and engage you - and given that these guys live in lowsec and destroy ships for a living, they're very good at assessing risk. The only way you'd actually win the fight itself is if you have some kind of ace up your sleeve that they overlooked. Needless to say, in most cases you don't and once you are warp scrambled you have little chance of surviving.
So the important thing is that you do some work during the 90% too. Use the scanner yourself, to see what ships are in the vicinity (and 14AU, the max scan range, is quite a vicinity). Check up on the pilots in local, paying particular attention to pilots with negative security statuses, with bounties, or in known pirate corps. However, don't assume that anyone has friendly intentions until proven otherwise. Try to stay at least 30km (and preferably more) away from the belts' warp-in points, as once a pirate has narrowed down your location he will likely warp directly to the belt. Warp disruptor IIs have a range of 28.8km when overloaded, so if pirate can get a target lock on you, within this range, before you warp out then he can prevent that warp. Stay aligned too, as far as possible - this means moving in the direction of a celestial object at at least 75% of your max speed (there's a handy "Align" button now). If you do this, then when you issue the warp command you will enter warp instantly. Since incoming players appear on your overview a good 5-10 seconds before they can lock (and thus warp scramble) you, you will have plenty of time to warp out unless you're asleep at the bridge.
If you're alert and cautious, it will be almost impossible to catch you (the exception being at a gatecamp that you could not/did not scout in advance, in a ship bigger than a frigate). This is the real skill of lowsec PvP in EVE, that of avoiding situations where you have little chance of winning and engineering those that you do. If you're not looking to actively PvP you can focus simply on not being caught yourself.
So yes - if you're caught, then 99% of the time you'll go pop. The key to surviving is not being caught, as opposed to fighting back better somehow.
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Yocus
Minmatar Fleets of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka Every weapon has a short and long range version e.g rockets/assault missiles/torpedoes (short), standards/heavies/cruise (long).
With hybrids, Blasters are short range/high damage. Rails are longer range/lower damage.
Thanks, now I understand it better.
Gartel Reiman, thanks a lot for the time you spent writing. It really explained lots of things that I was in doubt. Many many thanks.
=-= CEO of Fleets of Aesir =-= |
Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:34:00 -
[14]
Just like in any MMO game, 5 vs. 1 aren't survivable odds for the 1, and CCP has made efforts to make frigates viable and desirable by letting a pack of them take out even a battleship.
You can boost the defenses of your cruiser, but if you're attacked by the same people again, the only thing that will happen is it will take them a few minutes longer to kill you (because they have you tackled with their 5 warp disruptors and there's no way to escape that).
A big part of PVP is catching a fight or avoiding a fight. Watching local and warping out early are pretty much your only options in a 5 vs. 1 fight that you can't win. A cruiser has medium defenses; even if you fit it properly (with armor) and use Tech 2 modules (don't know if you have the skills for them), there's only so much damage it can take. Either make some friends and form a fleet so you have defense in numbers, or avoid lowsec (Concord doesn't help out in lowsec, so attacks are much more likely).
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Hauler Honey
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Posted - 2008.10.14 15:21:00 -
[15]
You should also spend some time in advance setting up your overview properly. You should create separate tabs for mining, PVE (missions), PVP, etc. When wondering around low-sec you could easily miss that an enemy has warped in if you have 20 veldspar asteroids cluttering up your overview to the point where the opponant's ship has scrolled off your current view.
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Tranka Verrane
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:02:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka
Every weapon has a short and long range version e.g rockets/assault missiles/torpedoes (short), standards/heavies/cruise (long).
I assume you meant Heavy Assault in that first (short) section. Assault launchers are the same range as standards, just faster firing rate and larger capacity.
Ingame: Channels&Mailing lists>Channels>Join>PVE>OK |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka
Every weapon has a short and long range version e.g rockets/assault missiles/torpedoes (short), standards/heavies/cruise (long).
I assume you meant Heavy Assault in that first (short) section. Assault launchers are the same range as standards, just faster firing rate and larger capacity.
Confusingly, the munitions fired from Heavy Assault launchers are called simply Assault Missiles - whereas the Assault Missile launcher canned fire them and instead fires Standard Missiles. So as Baka was talking about the munitions he was technically correct. CCP (mis-)naming conventions strike again!
Though admittedly, referring to them as "[Heavy] Assault missiles" would have made things clearer without upsetting any purists
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gfldex
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:58:00 -
[18]
There is a single rule of thumb when it comes to PvP in EVE.
Attack or be not there.
If you stay until somebody put a point on you (EVE lingo for successfully warp scrambling) you did a mistake. Even if the enemy is not outnumbering you, there are plenty of ship you wont stand a chance against no matter what ship you are in.
You can use your onboard scanner to tell what ships are close to you. But if local is filled with a few pilots that wont help much. Therefore stay out of systems close to highsec. There are quite a lot low sec systems that barely get any visitor per day. You want to go there.
For travelling WCS are a good idea, at least when you can refit in your target system or near by. They wont make you invincible though. Being able to get back to the gate before you get popped is a lot better. What's why you want to have an MWD. If you jump into a system and dont like what you see, wait for the session times to run out and MWD back to the gate.
To answer your original question. If there would be no way to keep somebody from running there would be no consumption in EVE. The economy would collapse within a few days.
Dont follow the advice to stay in high sec. It's the worst place to learn PvP. --
There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.15 05:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka
Every weapon has a short and long range version e.g rockets/assault missiles/torpedoes (short), standards/heavies/cruise (long).
I assume you meant Heavy Assault in that first (short) section. Assault launchers are the same range as standards, just faster firing rate and larger capacity.
Confusingly, the munitions fired from Heavy Assault launchers are called simply Assault Missiles - whereas the Assault Missile launcher canned fire them and instead fires Standard Missiles. So as Baka was talking about the munitions he was technically correct. CCP (mis-)naming conventions strike again!
Though admittedly, referring to them as "[Heavy] Assault missiles" would have made things clearer without upsetting any purists
My attempt at brevity went wrong......thanks for the feedback, I'll aim for clarity over brevity next time.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
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