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CSM: Hellmar, slower learning for 10m+ skill points? WTF?

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Dianabolic	Posted - 2004.06.25 16:34:00 - [1] Hellmar, the current skill system in EVE is ALREADY geared towards allowing new players to catch up with older players, it now takes me at least a week on most Rank 1 skills to gain that extra 5%, whereas a new player can gain an extra 20% in that same time period. I cannot state how absolutely, categorically against this idea I am, skill learning is a fundamental part of the game, and though I'm a great believe in "Adapt or die" to slow the experienced players down, you know, the guys that have paid your wages for the last year, beyond the problems we ALREADY face, is something right out of cuckoo land. Please, reconsider this, the playing field is level enough. If you like, introduce more skills, to allow further specialisation, but slowing down our learning? I'd expect you to discount our monthly fee's by the same amount, if you were to do that, because we'd be getting a proportion less of the game than new players.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.06.25 16:40:00 - [2] Why should veterans be punished for loyalty, Hellmar? Make it worth our while, if you must make this change. Allow us to specialise in our preferred areas and give us players with 10M+ skillpoints the chance to convert our unwanted skills into skillpoints in areas we want to specialise in. Don't forget, WE, the originals, didn't have the benefit of a vastly knowledgeable forum when we started so we all have skills we would never have trained if we knew how useless they would be. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Shauna	Posted - 2004.06.25 16:42:00 - [3] Edited by: Shauna on 25/06/2004 17:06:03 Quote: Don't forget, WE, the originals, didn't have the benefit of a vastly knowledgeable forum when we started so we all have skills we would never have trained if we knew how useless they would be. Exactly... also, new players have the benefit from getting access to BPCs in escrow... they can get implants on the market to boost skills quick. I keep hearing of people getting their first battleship within a month of starting. A skill point training nerf is something that really does serve as a kick in the teeth of those who've played for such a long time... invested time and money... helped CCP by doing bug reports, etc. Link to another interesting thread in Skills on this. Linkage some guy in ^^^^ thread even posted that he thought fitting requirements should be lowered for modules.
semp	Posted - 2004.06.25 17:17:00 - [4] Having been in the CSM sessions myself in the past, I would liketo add that athough someone says something in one of these chats, it by no way means that it will happen and if it does that it will happen in that way. The ability of the Devs to ad lib with the community is a very valuable one in my opinion and if we continue to lampoon them every time they come up with a suggesion which most of the player base dont like, then these chats could get very bland indeed. It not as if the question about keeping longer serving players more intrested and challenged while allowing a new starter to get involved as well is a new problem. Any every MMORPG out there has its own way to do it.....usually in the form of expansion packs, new high level only area etc. I for one approve of trying to avoid the same old ways of doing it. But only time will tell as to the way they intend to implement it in the eve universe. Semp
Arud	Posted - 2004.06.25 17:21:00 - [5] one thing about ccp is that they actualy listen to the player base and judging by the response from the player base about this I'm pretty much sure that this will never happen
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.06.25 17:47:00 - [6] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 25/06/2004 17:51:01 Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 25/06/2004 17:50:18 Quote: Hellmar, the current skill system in EVE is ALREADY geared towards allowing new players to catch up with older players... Geez it was just his opinion on the matter. Seriously I hate it when people keep asking for their opinions just to come here to whine about them and treat them as if they're planned changes that would come in with the next patch or something. Calm the ... down! Would you rather like to never hear anything about what the devs think? Because this is what they're going to do if you keep bashing them for expressing a bit of their opinion. They're simply going to think 'well if they don't appreciate me telling them what I think then f... em... I'll never tell em sh... again'. It's what I'd do at least... Mai's Idealog
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.06.25 17:50:00 - [7] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Quote: Hellmar, the current skill system in EVE is ALREADY geared towards allowing new players to catch up with older players... Geez it was just his opinion on the matter. Seriously I hate it when people keep asking for their opinions just to come here to whine about them and treat them as if they're planned changes that would come in with the next patch or something. Calm the ... down! Would you rather like to never hear anything about what the devs think? Very much agree with that one, but this topic has been discussed allready, it's just something they're thinking about for the long run. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Jayad	Posted - 2004.06.25 17:52:00 - [8] Skill points are over rated anyway, 25% better at stuff will not render veterans untouchable to new players. So yeah i dont agree with the surgested proposal. I believe in Capitalism, i would like to think that even the new can play smart and aquire riches and power (and not be to limited by skill points). I firmly believe that "SHIP CREWS" are a creadible solution to this problem. Ships should have Crew slots similar to modual slots. The richer the player the beter the crew member - simple. Crews would allow low skilled captains to control equipment like veterans. note: because of the alternate char problem, a game function like this should be limited so only the highest skilled char can command crews.
Hematic	Posted - 2004.06.25 17:56:00 - [9] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 25/06/2004 17:51:01 Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 25/06/2004 17:50:18 Quote: Hellmar, the current skill system in EVE is ALREADY geared towards allowing new players to catch up with older players... Geez it was just his opinion on the matter. Seriously I hate it when people keep asking for their opinions just to come here to whine about them and treat them as if they're planned changes that would come in with the next patch or something. Calm the ... down! Would you rather like to never hear anything about what the devs think? Because this is what they're going to do if you keep bashing them for expressing a bit of their opinion. They're simply going to think 'well if they don't appreciate me telling them what I think then f... em... I'll never tell em sh... again'. It's what I'd do at least... Yes and some of the player base is letting their opinion be known of his opinion. Geez CTFO it's not like this is a 'i'm gonna quit thread'
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.06.25 17:58:00 - [10] Quote: Yes and some of the player base is letting their opinion be known of his opinion. Geez CTFO it's not like this is a 'i'm gonna quit thread' True, but the inital post is making it sound as if it's a planned change which is not the case. It's stuff like this that points people in the wrong direction and makes them post bs nobody really needs. Just stick to the facts and at least state that this isn't something that's going to make it into the game anytime soon. Mai's Idealog
Deadflip2	Posted - 2004.06.25 18:01:00 - [11] ive been thinking about it lately, and once they add advanced learnin skills itll be "disadvantige" nuff for vetrans... --- "this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me. I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist OMG im a pretzel!!!
Tyrrax Thorrk	Posted - 2004.06.25 18:25:00 - [12] Haven't like 5 of these whining threads been locked already ? :P Seriously, stop it. http://eve.klaki.net/
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.06.25 18:27:00 - [13] The complaints are very pre-emptive but it's a sign of how deeply we feel about this proposed/suggested change. It means the Dev's can stop thinking about it altogether and spend more time on the near future rather than the far future. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Bobby Wilson	Posted - 2004.06.25 18:48:00 - [14] Sounds like a bad idea. We've got real roles for frigates and team based play is growing now so a newer player even short on Isk can make contributions to their corp whether they mine, PvP or NPC. New players will never "catch up" with veteran players, but then players with 10 mil skill points only got that way by being loyal CCP customers for the past year, through all the trials, tribulations, nerfs and contentlessness. Besides, at this point a 3 mil skillpoint pilot can take a 12 mil skill point pilot easily. IF the3 mil pilot is a smarter, better pilot. And if he's not he's just whining to blame it on his skill points. BW Originally by: Selim Cool, congrats. Oh, stupid idea by the way.
kieron	Posted - 2004.06.25 19:16:00 - [15] All the feedback on this topic is appreciated. However, I would like to ask everyone to keep in mind that any sort of revamping of the skill point system is very far down the road. All that has occured to this point is discussion and a heavy dose of "What If?". When this gets closer to implimentation (most likely post-Shiva), the Devs will discuss this with the players, get feedback, then make a decision. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.06.25 21:21:00 - [16] The fact that players are jumping on it like this NOW should tell you something, surely Kieron? More high end paths will fix this. There's only a finite amount of time, after all. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Procion	Posted - 2004.06.25 21:41:00 - [17] dont see whats wrong with it ,if it gets more people wanting to play the game, i know lot's of people that wont join an mmorpg that has been around for awhile if theres no way in hell they stand a chance of catching up ever so slightly to some of the people who had the game on day one. its a better idea than them not bringing out better clone's. atleast this way people would not lose skill points everytime they are podded.
Ardor	Posted - 2004.06.25 21:42:00 - [18] Each coin has two sides. Eve can not be successful without new subscribers. Even if all of the current players love this game and nobody ever quits the player base will decrease. You know some of us are very old, hehe. New subscribers will only come if they get a fair chance to become competetive. I am not saying they must get 15m skillpoints from start nor do I say vets have to have a skill cap! I also think new subscribers do accept the fact they will never reach the amount of skillpoints of veterans if they still have a chance to become competetive and not only be cannonfodder. I do believe the current skillsystem is very fine because (I repeat myself) it always takes more than 5 times to train a skill from level 4 to 5 than from 0 to 4 with same attributes. This is a huge timesink to reach the extra 5% for a veteran. Shiploadouts, luck in the paper, scissor, stone game and most of all experience are by far more important than skills. I do believe high ranked advanced skills with level 5 skill requirements are the solution to the not really existing problem. This way players will be forced to choose if they want to be a real specialist in one field or to continue to be jack of all trades. I wouldnt mind if the titan skill for example would be a rank 32 skill and if there will be titans which require level 5. This is a crazy amount of training time. I did the math. But this way it will be hard even for a mega corp to find such pilots. And such pilots will not be able to be a scientist and producer etc. He will be a real 'professional' pilot trained to fly a titan. I want to see real 'professional' scientists (no mission runners), real professional traders, producers etc. And I want producers specialized on Amarr fregates, scientists specialized on Hull upgrades etc. I want 100 assistants who can earn good isk and will find a job everywhere, I want 50 doctors who earn even more isk and I want 10 professors who have earned more than enough isk in the past so they can buy the complete useless gallentean luxury yacht which is nothing but a status symbol (or may give you 1 more charisma if you dock in gallentean stations). Give me what I want. Of course I understand if your priority currently is weapon balancing and shiva. addenda: of course I dont want a gallentean luxury yacht. That was only an example. I would prefer a peace of land (like 10m¦) on Athra on the Amarr continent where they will bury me with my car when my time has come.
Gaijin Lanis	Posted - 2004.06.25 21:44:00 - [19] You... can't be serious... you're actually, factually, CONSIDERING the implementation of a penalty and calling it a feature!? Excuse me? What part of everything about eve since beta has ever agreed with such non-logic? Hey, while we're at it, why not make all modules break three months after you buy them? Or even better, lets have ships randomly break down, and require the purchase of overpriced consumables to fix them? Its not penalizing, ITS ADDING DEPTH!!!
Dianabolic	Posted - 2004.06.25 22:09:00 - [20] Originally by: kieron All the feedback on this topic is appreciated. However, I would like to ask everyone to keep in mind that any sort of revamping of the skill point system is very far down the road. All that has occured to this point is discussion and a heavy dose of "What If?". When this gets closer to implimentation (most likely post-Shiva), the Devs will discuss this with the players, get feedback, then make a decision. Many thanks for the reply Kieron, and sorry for repeating a topic that I wasn't aware had already been posted. Josh has summed my thoughts up on this perfectly, however: Originally by: Joshua Calvert The complaints are very pre-emptive but it's a sign of how deeply we feel about this proposed/suggested change. It means the Dev's can stop thinking about it altogether and spend more time on the near future rather than the far future. Save yourselves the energy, Kieron, you've got enough to do
Earthan	Posted - 2004.06.26 01:21:00 - [21] Havent heard about this idea but i hate it. I have carefully planned my advance to learn skils fast on long run , learned learning skill very early, watching as others learned useful skills, and was quite proud to outpass others now with my aroound 15 milions skill points atm. Now i will be punished, all others will catch up even faster. And really Eve as it is doesnt give big bonus to veteran plaeyers. The time it takes to learn level 5 skills is huge, and gives only 5 % bonus. The new plauyers are cathing up fast. Stars, stars like dust, all around me....
Hardin	Posted - 2004.06.26 02:01:00 - [22] More community opinion on this And more community reaction
LOLZ	Posted - 2004.06.26 02:13:00 - [23] dont add anymore clones ,people will reach the clone limit ,lose skill points when they die and best of all it will not be considered a nerf and is something people have known about for a very long time! everyone is happy seriously its the best thing to do that wont upset the small amount of the player base that moan on the forum and will allow new players to catch upto a limited extent.
Drutort	Posted - 2004.06.26 02:28:00 - [24] Originally by: LOLZ dont add anymore clones ,people will reach the clone limit ,lose skill points when they die and best of all it will not be considered a nerf and is something people have known about for a very long time! everyone is happy seriously its the best thing to do that wont upset the small amount of the player base that moan on the forum and will allow new players to catch upto a limited extent. im sorry but that is a dumb idea what will happen? stop your main or sell it? and train an alt all over again? that would feel like single player game then a MMO the point is that it should cost a lot and it does already. All though how much isk someone is or how rich they are is just a perspective... someone thinks 1M is rich someone thinks 100M someone thinks its 1B etc... I agree with others... the high ranking skills already take so long that we get hardly any bonus for them... while new players train most of their skills to the average levels fast. Its only those who wish to get lvl5's and so on that spend weeks and months just for small %... while new players will have trained a few skills. I really dont see the problem. The vets didnt even have options or hte changes that the new players have now, you had to get into a BS to do anything all other ships were useless almost. Today its not so you can be flying almost all the ships and be effective (cruisers need work) support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Procion	Posted - 2004.06.26 03:24:00 - [25] Vets have a stupidly big bonus above noob's its not just the 5% from skills its what modules you can use. vets should already be able to equip any tech 2 stuff that comes out. noob's have to spend a week+ per tech 2 module they want to use. like cloaking devices ,interceptors ,covert op frigs. how many people with only 4mil or so skill point's are going to be able to fly them in the next month? probably a hand full that have concentrated on frigate skills. what about the elite cruisers ,elite bships ,pocket bship's etc. vets will be able to fly them or be very close while noob's are going to be left far behind. training for those ships is going to seem almost impossible for anyone joining the game now or people who have only been playing a couple of month's. they might aswell not bother or go join some other fairly new mmorpg. in the long run people with 10mil+ skill points who are beeing selfish are going to hurt them self's when ccp cant get any new blood into the game and decide its not worth keeping the servers up for the really hardcore players that are willing to stick around over any new mmorpg's that come out.
swisher	Posted - 2004.06.26 03:47:00 - [26] Well I think the vets deserve a edge over the noobs..its only right..we have paid and played longer..why would we stay with the game for so long if only to find out we could spend 3 months in this game and be at max levels? If they do screw the vets over with this I personally will quit.. and will see that I have wasted my time and my hopes for this game. It still totally blows my mind that the devs and creators of this game made it a awesome game but when it comes to management and the player base of the older guys that have been here thru all the crap..they bring up sucide for us...really smart..I guess you guys dont want to keep your ideas of CCP alive...if you do this atleast sellout to a real gaming company. -swish
Procion	Posted - 2004.06.26 04:01:00 - [27] Edited by: Procion on 26/06/2004 04:02:51 er you would still have an edge you just wouldnt be pulling away from the noob's anymore until they hit 10m+ sp that you know would take a very long time. its something that will eventually effect every player not just the vet's. people with 15mil + sp would actually be gaining an advantage because they got there sp before the slow cap was implemented
Telsa Lightning	Posted - 2004.06.26 05:24:00 - [28] Think about it a sec. What is going to happen in another year? We will all have 20M+ SP. Can you imagine how a noob is going to react to this? S/he joins a corp, and will be regulated to being the "hauler" for months. S/he has no hope of catching up to anyone else in the corp. No hope of getting into any of the new, cool ships, as they will all have skill levels that would take a good year to train up. And their outlook on what type of game eve is? Well, to them, there really is only one outlook: They missed the boat. It is really easy to see how this is going to turn out. And I gotta admit that some smart people work at CCP to start trying to figure it out now. As to the "forum game", its pretty fun! And no skill training needed!
Galk	Posted - 2004.06.26 05:35:00 - [29] Originally by: kieron All the feedback on this topic is appreciated. However, I would like to ask everyone to keep in mind that any sort of revamping of the skill point system is very far down the road. All that has occured to this point is discussion and a heavy dose of "What If?". When this gets closer to implimentation (most likely post-Shiva), the Devs will discuss this with the players, get feedback, then make a decision. Sorry but it's when you talk in the sense of 'when this gets closer to implimentation' That scares me. Like this is 'realy' going to happen. I belive if so, you will get as many people leave, as you could ever hope to claw back in new subs. ------------------------ ---- Little wonder why people were, what this person was telling my friends: http://galk.50megs.com/logs/
Xadian	Posted - 2004.06.26 05:37:00 - [30] Edited by: Xadian on 26/06/2004 05:40:38 Originally by: Procion Vets have a stupidly big bonus above noob's its not just the 5% from skills its what modules you can use. vets should already be able to equip any tech 2 stuff that comes out. noob's have to spend a week+ per tech 2 module they want to use. like cloaking devices ,interceptors ,covert op frigs. how many people with only 4mil or so skill point's are going to be able to fly them in the next month? probably a hand full that have concentrated on frigate skills. what about the elite cruisers ,elite bships ,pocket bship's etc. vets will be able to fly them or be very close while noob's are going to be left far behind. training for those ships is going to seem almost impossible for anyone joining the game now or people who have only been playing a couple of month's. they might aswell not bother or go join some other fairly new mmorpg. in the long run people with 10mil+ skill points who are beeing selfish are going to hurt them self's when ccp cant get any new blood into the game and decide its not worth keeping the servers up for the really hardcore players that are willing to stick around over any new mmorpg's that come out. You forget that only those who have invested the time to get the needed skills for such things to lvl 5 should be able to use them. It seems like you want the new players, who have not invetsted the huge amount of time needed, to be able to use such high-end equipment. And newer players are getting boosts to help them catch up quite often. Those new +1 implants appear (to me anyway) to allow new players (without much time or difficulty) to decrease the skill training on some of their skills. And as to elite cruisers and battleships, a "noob" in an elite battleship, is (other than ebay chars) not a noob. The need to bring in new players is crucial to any MMO's survival, but taking and destroying all of the time the current subscribers have put in is, in no way, the answer. (If it ain't broke, don't fix it) Always hit the big red button whenever you get the chance.

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