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Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:08:00 - [1] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 20/10/2008 00:09:12 In most arguments I see one argument that is so flawed, so damn annoying, that I am compelled to make a post about it. The "X would make CCP more money so they are going to/they should do this". This usually comes up in threads debating EVE's core design like skill training, PVP (non consensual, wardecs, etc) Basically, the crux of the argument is that CCP could appeal to more people if they changed design principles around to make it more like a mainstream MMO. DISCLAIMER: SWG NGE ANALOGY APPROACHING Lets take SWG. It was a pretty good game with a rather complex skill system. It was unique and it was going pretty well, but not perfect. Suddenly, SOE gets the idea that they can attract more mainstream players (WoWplayers) by streamlining/simplifying/dumbing it all down. The reasoning is that if X game has a huge playerbase, then making the game more like Game X will increase your playerbase. So, SOE dumbs the game down. Rather than an open ended skill system, you have 6 deadlocked classes that unlock skills based on what level you are (ala WoW). They KNOW they will ** people off. However, they figure that they would attract more people than they would lose. Guess what? They didn't. SOE learned the harsh lesson that making a GOOD game is FAR better than appealing to the masses. SWG loses huge portions of its population, game almost dies, GG SOE. So how does this relate to EVE? Well, people have the same mindset. Whether or not it's good for EVE, people think that making EVE more like that-game-that-shall-not-be-named will make it more popular and thus CCP should do it for more money. Guess what: It wont. EVE Online is successful because it's a good game. The developers have core design principles and the game mechanics all work together to achieve those. If there is a problem with the game, it's because it doesn't accurately reflect those initial principles and CCP tries to rectify that. That's how the game gets better. World of Warcraft is successful because it has core principles (xp-based system, PVE with optional PVP, cooperative gameplay, etc) and it's successful because WoW is -damn- good at achieving those. Those principles aren't the same as EVE's principles and people should learn to accept that. If EVE tries to become WoW in space, then it will die, horribly...just like WoW would die if it tried to become EVE. This brings us to the final, obvious conclusion: What's good for the game is what will increase subscriber numbers. There's no way for CCP to make the game shitty and increase subscriber numbers. Increased subscriber numbers is a BYPRODUCT of CCP improving the game. Stop this "But it would appeal to more people" bullshit, it doesn't work. If you are a person who dislikes EVE's core design principles: don't *, go back to a game that meets your needs. I didn't like WoW. I didn't * on the forums because I thought the game should change for me, I simply quit and found something else. tl; dr: WoW is WoW and EVE is EVE, and if you try to make EVE into WoW then I hope an elephant steps on your balls. Originally by:** Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:15:00 - [2] I give this thread my official seal of approval Also, if you're quitting, can I have your stuff? _____________________ The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:22:00 - [3] It's a good game that is trying to have more mass appeal.
Aloriana Jacques Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:25:00 - [4] It's a good game trying for more mass appeal without compromising what makes it a good game. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:26:00 - [5] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 20/10/2008 00:28:35 Originally by: Jukhta Mein It's a good game that is trying to have more mass appeal. No, no, and no. Liking one game over another is an OPINION. Saying that a game is better because more people like it is saying that their OPINION is better, which is by definition impossible. A game is good when the gameplay mechanics support and represent the game's core principles.. Quote: It's a good game trying for more mass appeal without compromising what makes it a good game. Also no. More appeal will come with making the game better. There is no way short of making the game better to make it appeal to more people. The only way to get more "mass appeal" without making the game better is better advertisement so that people know the game exists. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Strill	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:48:00 - [6] If you start out making a horror movie, but then half of the way through you see that horror movies aren't doing as well as action movies, and you try to change your movie into an action movie in the middle of production, what do you get? Ewe Boll. Don't make EVE into Ewe Boll.
Feriluce Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:49:00 - [7] So what you're trying to say is that some ppl like serious internet spaceships and some ppl like pretty elves and gnomes, and that putting pretty elves and gnomes on top of serious internet spaceships wont make the gnome loving persons like eve?
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Feriluce So what you're trying to say is that some ppl like serious internet spaceships and some ppl like pretty elves and gnomes, and that putting pretty elves and gnomes on top of serious internet spaceships wont make the gnome loving persons like eve? I believe his point is that putting elves and gnomes on top of internet spaceships will make internet spaceship pilots rage.
Feriluce Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:57:00 - [9] Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai Originally by: Feriluce So what you're trying to say is that some ppl like serious internet spaceships and some ppl like pretty elves and gnomes, and that putting pretty elves and gnomes on top of serious internet spaceships wont make the gnome loving persons like eve? I believe his point is that putting elves and gnomes on top of internet spaceships will make internet spaceship pilots rage. But they're so pretty ._.
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.10.20 01:10:00 - [10] Well Done Kahega! Make this a sticky so EVERYONE should read this before posting thier opinion about making one system like another.... Regards, Jason Brisbane
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.10.20 01:17:00 - [11] NGE comparisons are the Godwin's law of MMO forums.
Lt Shard Shoot To Thrill	Posted - 2008.10.20 01:27:00 - [12] yes we need more mass appeal! i demand more! i demand to see commercials on TV! it would make some people try if not many. /sarcasm And Cookies we need cookies! guns that shoot cookies! /endsarcasm
DubanFP Caldari Evil ALT Corp Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.20 01:39:00 - [13] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/10/2008 01:39:46 The Op has a little bit too much nerd rage involved, but the underlying principles are sound. _______________ "White, Black, Minmitar, Achura, Male or Female it doesn't matter to me. I'm an equal opportunity killer"
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.20 02:00:00 - [14] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 20/10/2008 01:39:46 The Op has a little bit too much nerd rage involved, but the underlying principles are sound. I consider nerdrage one of EVE's core design principles Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.10.20 03:59:00 - [15] Dugg for tl;dr last sentence
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2008.10.20 04:23:00 - [16] What we need is walking in stations.
James Holcomb Caldari Davy Jones Locker Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.20 05:55:00 - [17] In my opinion, what makes Eve a great game is how involved the player is in their progression. It is why I like it, I have an active role in guiding where my pilot is going to end up. And even when I end up at that point, if I am dissatisfied I can change directions on the fly. Making Eve have mass appeal is possible without giving up its core principles. It is merely a matter of how you sell the game since it does contain likable features for many gamers.
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.10.20 06:20:00 - [18] ...i still think the game could use space whales. -- Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.10.20 06:52:00 - [19] Same with Ultima Online. They got an open skill system too, and a somewhat basic item system in which almost anything could be player crafted and used to great effect. No matter what you killed, you always had a chance of a magical item dropping off creatures, but these wore themselves out eventually and were not that much better than player crafted stuff. Then EA got the brilliant idea to turn it into a diablo clone where monsters dropped insanely powerful artifacts and you'd had to grind bosses repeatingly to get them. Items would never wear out if you grinded blacksmith quests, the skill system was overhauled so that people would have to grind bosses to get scrolls that could boost their skills upto 120 (the max used to be 100) and without these scrolls you couldn't compete anymore. Crafting was made obsolete as well unless you got access to runic items which could craft magical gear. To get those you'd have to do blacksmith or tailoring quests and only the randomly assigned high end quests would give you a chance to get them, which was less than 1 in a thousand. Of course only the botters and dupers had access to runic stuff from that moment on. And that's how UO died, at least on the official servers. --- Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
Haraldhardrade Amarr Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.20 06:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Basically, the crux of the argument is that CCP could appeal to more people if they changed design principles around to make it more like a mainstream MMO. They have systematically done this for the past 3 years. Quote: Guess what: It wont. EVE Online is successful because it's a good game. The developers have core design principles and the game mechanics all work together to achieve those. If there is a problem with the game, it's because it doesn't accurately reflect those initial principles and CCP tries to rectify that. That's how the game gets better. Guess what, you are wrong. EVE become more sucessfull because a) It was an open sandbox, which has decreased over the past years due to nerfing of anything that annoying the 'casual' player. (See interview with Prism X (IIRC) about CCP wanting more casual players) b) CCP listened to the whiners quitting over the harsh and hostile nature of EVE. General discussion used to be filled with people posting about they were quitting because they got treated poorly compared with wow or whatever. These thread are now almost non existant because EVE has been systematically dumbed down over the past 3 years. c)They dumbed down the game. Quote: This brings us to the final, obvious conclusion: What's good for the game is what will increase subscriber numbers. There's no way for CCP to make the game shitty and increase subscriber numbers. Increased subscriber numbers is a BYPRODUCT of CCP improving the game. Wrong. Increased subscribers is a result of the original creators of EVE leaving the job to new people who were in charge of marketing and altering the game in order to get more subscribers. When that dude quit his job and took the job in China CCP got a new dude in charge and the game started seing more nerfs and dumbing down. Quote: Stop this "But it would appeal to more people" bullshit, it doesn't work. If you are a person who dislikes EVE's core design principles: don't ***, go back to a game that meets your needs. I didn't like WoW. I didn't *** on the forums because I thought the game should change for me, I simply quit and found something else. Will you promise to stop this "EVE is a hrash world where you can be all you can be" crap? Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.10.20 07:05:00 - [21] ehmmmm ... well yes and no ... You see the problem with EVE core principles is that they are bound to people ... and as long as the developer team constantly changes, they will change too ... But I think CCP can improve the game to appeal to more people WITHOUT abandoning what makes EVE a great game ... they just need to implement it in stages, so that character life is slowly unlocking the options. However that is a very narrow path and easy to loose. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Pan Fairchild Atropos Asylum	Posted - 2008.10.20 07:27:00 - [22] I think there are degrees of 'dumbing' down and I think the folk at CCP are smart enough to know when; someone is simply having a cry or giving a genuine criticism. Maybe we just have too many lawyer shows nowadays, everyone has to jump up 'I PROTEST! Everyone I know whats best.' I get the irritation of what your complaining about but really if everyone just ignored the posts they would disappear. You can tell launching eve it involves maths, loads of reading and planning... no matter what CCP does it still is going to be apart of it. So yeah eve in general just needs to take a chill pill. Anyway everyone knows its all the GUIs fault.
Adora Femella	Posted - 2008.10.20 07:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Haraldhardrade Guess what, you are wrong. EVE become more sucessfull because ... c)They dumbed down the game. ... I'm sort of interested to hear when has this actually happened. From looking at the expansions and patches the early EVE frankly wasn't that good of a game. Harsher, buggy and dumbed down version of the current game, that was sorely lacking in gameplay features to be exact. The removal of mines, missile collision and splash damage are the few feature that seem dumbed down, but CCP had actual reasons for changing those. Though that was from just skimming trough the notes, so tell me how they dumbed down the game.
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.20 08:02:00 - [24] Improving the game, in terms of sticking to core principles, would probably alienate more players than attract others. In Eve's context, if you improve the game, there is a possibility you actually further decrease whatever mass appeal it had. On the other hand, improving the game would increase support from the players who are committed to Eve's core principles, but whether this 'improving the game' has a net positive effect on overall appeal both to WOWlike players and Evelike players remains to be seen. In other words, I don't totally buy the notion that increasing subscriptions is the direct result of improving the game. Increasing subscriptions could, on the other hand, be the result of deproving the core principles of the game, in terms of making it easier to survive, easier to catch up with older characters, and so on.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.10.20 08:05:00 - [25] Originally by: Adora Femella Originally by: Haraldhardrade Guess what, you are wrong. EVE become more sucessfull because ... c)They dumbed down the game. ... I'm sort of interested to hear when has this actually happened. From looking at the expansions and patches the early EVE frankly wasn't that good of a game. Harsher, buggy and dumbed down version of the current game, that was sorely lacking in gameplay features to be exact. The removal of mines, missile collision and splash damage are the few feature that seem dumbed down, but CCP had actual reasons for changing those. Though that was from just skimming trough the notes, so tell me how they dumbed down the game. Introduction of base insurance, stronger concord, HP increase, yet stronger concord again and introduction of wtz to name a few. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Haraldhardrade Amarr Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.20 08:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Adora Femella Originally by: Haraldhardrade Guess what, you are wrong. EVE become more sucessfull because ... c)They dumbed down the game. ... I'm sort of interested to hear when has this actually happened. From looking at the expansions and patches the early EVE frankly wasn't that good of a game. Harsher, buggy and dumbed down version of the current game, that was sorely lacking in gameplay features to be exact. The removal of mines, missile collision and splash damage are the few feature that seem dumbed down, but CCP had actual reasons for changing those. Though that was from just skimming trough the notes, so tell me how they dumbed down the game. You used to be able to fight faction police : NERFED Real options in terms of ship fitting i.e chpice to go full damage or full tank an everything in between : NERFED CONCORD : BUFFED Drones : Nerfed Hitpoints : Increased Solo PVP : NERFED as a result of the 'lol we want fights to last longer' concept implemented by Tuxford. Probably many other things as well. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.10.20 08:26:00 - [27] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Adora Femella Originally by: Haraldhardrade Guess what, you are wrong. EVE become more sucessfull because ... c)They dumbed down the game. ... I'm sort of interested to hear when has this actually happened. From looking at the expansions and patches the early EVE frankly wasn't that good of a game. Harsher, buggy and dumbed down version of the current game, that was sorely lacking in gameplay features to be exact. The removal of mines, missile collision and splash damage are the few feature that seem dumbed down, but CCP had actual reasons for changing those. Though that was from just skimming trough the notes, so tell me how they dumbed down the game. Introduction of base insurance, stronger concord, HP increase, yet stronger concord again and introduction of wtz to name a few. x2. Well done OP. In my opinion, CCP will gain a stronger player base and more subscribers, and actually RETAIN said subscribers by adding more complexity and more depth to the game than dumbing it down. Yes, EVE is complicated and the learning curve steep at first, but that means better tutorials and more comprehensive documentation, not simplification. Yes, there have been massive improvements in game balance and overall design. Compared to even a year ago the game is much more polished and with far fewer really aggravating bugs. But on the flip side, Eve is sooooo much softer at it's center now than ever before. All the brutal loss and horrible consequences of being stupid are being removed one by one. High sec is almost perfectly safe, when was the last time you saw a high sec gank whine thread? I was auditing my kills and losses the other day and it kind of surprised me- for every loss that I incur, I probably kill two hundred or more similar ships. For every BS I lose, I've usually killed two hundred times that number. That got me to thinking: how many people out there lose ship after ship after ship, and how do they go on playing? What is the pain threshold before they quit? Or just hide in high sec forever until they're wardecced, and then quit? How many people are there like myself that drive other players out of the game? Or does that happen? Do players like myself actually cause player retention and have a positive net effect on player numbers given how many I encourage to stay vs. how many I drive off? What about average subscription length due to said influence? Food for thought. Eve is getting too soft, and will continue to do so. Jump freighters? Cyno Jammers? WTZ? Concord buff after Concord buff? Nerfed war dec mechanics? It's not going to stop, is it? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Nocturnal Avenger Black Plague.	Posted - 2008.10.20 08:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate I give this thread my official seal of approval Only read the first 4 lines, but I think I do as well. - Carebear Pirate -
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.10.20 08:51:00 - [29] Edited by: Le Skunk on 20/10/2008 08:55:24 Originally by: Bellum Eternus [ Eve is getting too soft, and will continue to do so. Jump freighters? Cyno Jammers? WTZ? Concord buff after Concord buff? Nerfed war dec mechanics? It's not going to stop, is it? Well it would be nice if they gave ONE TINY THING back to the pvp minded players. ONE THING like stoping the cloak mwd "non" exploit or stopping the log off whilst cloaked, logoff logon logoff logon exploit ( I did this today and it totally stinks) or stopping the multi alt corp hopping to avoid wardes Instead its just nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf NOTHING has been given to the pvp minded player in years. Nothing at all. And dont you dare say HICS. If they fixed the non exploits I detailed above, Id forgive them all of their PR gaffes, blatent lies, money grabs, patronising, nerfing, etc Is it to much to ask? Just a tiny little bone in a sea of shit. SKUNK
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.20 09:13:00 - [30] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate I give this thread my official seal of approval So do I. (as if that counts for something..)
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.10.20 09:38:00 - [31] Once Eve addiction hits. No other MMORPG can satisfy. Paratwa Recruitment
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.10.20 09:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 20/10/2008 08:55:24 Originally by: Bellum Eternus [ Eve is getting too soft, and will continue to do so. Jump freighters? Cyno Jammers? WTZ? Concord buff after Concord buff? Nerfed war dec mechanics? It's not going to stop, is it? Well it would be nice if they gave ONE TINY THING back to the pvp minded players. ONE THING like stoping the cloak mwd "non" exploit or stopping the log off whilst cloaked, logoff logon logoff logon exploit ( I did this today and it totally stinks) or stopping the multi alt corp hopping to avoid wardes Instead its just nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf NOTHING has been given to the pvp minded player in years. Nothing at all. And dont you dare say HICS. If they fixed the non exploits I detailed above, Id forgive them all of their PR gaffes, blatent lies, money grabs, patronising, nerfing, etc Is it to much to ask? Just a tiny little bone in a sea of shit. SKUNK Agreed. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.20 10:00:00 - [33] Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai Originally by: Feriluce So what you're trying to say is that some ppl like serious internet spaceships and some ppl like pretty elves and gnomes, and that putting pretty elves and gnomes on top of serious internet spaceships wont make the gnome loving persons like eve? I believe his point is that putting elves and gnomes on top of internet spaceships will make internet spaceship pilots rage. cuz interwebs sapceshipz iz seriuz biznezez ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility look at that weird population lag from the 16th to the 17th YARRRR!!
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.10.20 10:46:00 - [34] hehe the only dumbing that was not done is the UI ... until the UI is more friendly and usable, there will be NO mass appeal ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Ji Sama Caldari Department of Defence	Posted - 2008.10.20 10:55:00 - [35] I love the OP irl! And lastly dont forget to check out the link in my signature.. "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play
Zaknussem Caldari The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:37:00 - [36] The tl;dr version of the OP post is that he thinks it's a bad idea for CCP to even consider to try to appeal to a broader group of players. Let that sink in for a moment and people will realise why the OP is not running CCP. (tl;dr crowd, stop reading here) CCP is a company, first and foremost. They will do whatever they damn like in order to stay in business, regardless of anyone's opinion, especially that of the customers. Or maybe you missed all the nerdrage about the Ghost Training nerf a week ago? To defend your post, you raise the best known example of an online game that suffered because of "mass appeal, make more money"-decisions. Take into account that SOE were dealing with a LucasArts-owned property (Company slogan: Make More Money or George will Kill Us) and the only surprise factor in the whole SWG: NGE matter was that it wasn't done sooner. SWG isn't exactly a standing testament to the concept that changing a game to increase it's appeal is a bad thing; it's more a standing testament to the concept that changing a game too much in one go is a very bad idea. Changing a game in slower, smaller increments is the way to go. (Coincidentally, how has EvE changed over the years?) As for Ultima Online, if I read things correctly, the Diablo-esque decisions for the game were made before WoW was released, and the Diablo-style of gameplay had proven itself to be a moneymaker with mass-appeal. EA is another company that does whatever it damn pleases, customer feedback not accepted. So no-one should be surprised that they tried to market a "sure thing" game element to the wrong crowd. Furthermore, I see no evidence of the OP possessing clairvoyance, so his remarks of "if EvE becomes WoW, it will die" are, at best, completely meaningless. Just because you decide that the game will die if it changes too much won't make it so. Games don't magically cease to exist when you stop caring about them. Also, saying that WoW has "cooperative gameplay" as a core principle and that EvE does not...let's just say that the EvE Alliances are not one-man shows. Quote: There's no way for CCP to make the game shitty and increase subscriber numbers A biased opinion, at best. I have heard a couple of arguments that CCP started out with a shitty game which is still shitty today, but still the subscriber numbers are increasing. A more common argument is that EvE started out fine, but has become shittier as the years passed. Look to the nearest EvE player that is still whining about WTZ to see what I mean. I am going to make an unflawed "X would make CCP more money so they are going to/should do this" argument right here. With X being one of the following (take your pick): # Friendly UI # Good customer support # Good documentation You know, the Basics that any MMO should have. To close, your argument that the "But it will appeal to more people" point is bullshit and does not work is...well...bullshit in itself. It doesn't help that the points you use to reinforce your argument are either bullshit as well, or seen with such a huge bias as to render them moot and void. About the only thing that we both agree upon is that if huge appeal-boosting changes were done to EvE in one fell swoop, it would surely die. Which is why no-one does so anymore, everyone agrees on it. But EvE is changing, and it is changing to be more appealing. One step at a time. Instead of the elephant stepping on your balls in one crushing action, the elephant is applying the pressure s-l-o-w-l-y.
Abrynn Minmatar CCCP INC	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:40:00 - [37] My opinion on this matter....I talk to 2k3 beta players everyday and ive been playing since 2k6. The biggest problem EVE is having atm are the dev's just arent listning to the player base. Regardles of it becoming Nerf online its the older players the ppl that have been here for years that make CCP the most money in the long run, idk one older player that has one account as a matter of fact i know a few that have 12 and have had for yrs and yrs. When you start alienating the older players in the game thats when it goes down hill. And Kahega all i can say is AMEN BROTHER!!! Ive played lots of games and they all go down the same way, and this is the path of death. You just cant alienate your loyal customers and expect everything to be ok, the "fair weather Friends" dont make a constant customer.
Komillia Jenius	Posted - 2008.10.20 15:39:00 - [38] The OP's idea is good but missies a critical point. CCP can do whatever they want to their playerbase because players have invested heavily into their charachters. Through the use of a Real Life skill training, people have to think twice about cancelling an account or leaving the game because of certain Nerfs. While in WoW you can grind up to Lvl 60 with a party and a month of play, in Eve you have to wait a year to replace a year old player. To sum it up: CCP hands freebies for 5 years, now CCP doubles GTC/ETC prices and recoups all those "losses" in 1 year. You can't go back.
RedSplat	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:02:00 - [39] Originally by: Kahega Amielden OP post removed Force the Devs to play Minny. Much worse than an Elephant. Also, /signed, agreed, wish it wasn't so.
Korizan	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:26:00 - [40] Edited by: Korizan on 20/10/2008 16:28:33 Sense we are talking about the big picture and not picking apart one aspect alone. I seriously doubt EVE will ever have the mass audience effect. The game was designed around PvP which does NOT appeal to the masses. HOWEVER Well whenever you create any tool in a game you are could be, dumbing down the game. Then again it could also be considered a feature depending on who you talk too. But in general for every new item or ship they put in the game you are adding one more level of complexity. Accentually creating a more diverse and more focused player base. What I mean by this is that the more complex the game gets the less you will see an industrialist that can also to PvP. There just will not be enough time to train both unless you where here from the start. So I believe EVE has basically reached the point where they need to re-look at some current features and do some changing and or balancing. You can only add so many ships before you have to go back and say okay now do all these ships work together or did we make some obsolete. Then there is the question of, do we let those ships die or do rebalance the lot so they work in concert. Now other items could be reworked. I can think of POS warfare for one. BUT perhaps CCP is in the same boat I am in and that is just how do you change it to make it a viable solution and not just be a temp patch. Perhaps walking on planets may change that system entirely and that is why CCP has not made any changes that would after all only be a temp patch. And walking on stations could add a huge potential for even more complexity. Perhaps if this game lasts long enough then there will be players who donÆt interact @ all with each other and to them it is a totally different game then what you see. And we see that now with many players. But if do you really want to dumb down the game. Then let everyone do everything. Then you really are dumbing it down. But I donÆt see CCP doing that. In fact I see them working in the opposite direction.
Praytell	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:06:00 - [41] Im a prime example of EVE addiction! I tried my hardest to interest some friends of mine into EVE from thier mainstream mmo's but I failed. So they asked me to come back to those games and its enjoyable for so long... EVE is where the heart is. gj CCP.
Taedrin Gallente Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.10.20 19:07:00 - [42] Edited by: Taedrin on 20/10/2008 19:08:10 GAH!!!!! Carebears, WoW is this way: <------------------- hardcore PvPer's Counterstrike is this way: -------------------> This is EVE. There are PvPers here. There are carebears here. Sometimes, PvPers get thrown a bone. Sometimes, carebears get thrown a bone. EVE is a dynamic game, constantly changing - shifting the balance constantly. Just because you want to PvP does not give you the right to free kills. Likewise, just because you don't want to PvP doesn't mean you can stuff all of your worldly possessions into a T1 hauler and expect not to get suicide ganked. You will adapt, or you will die.
Unity Love Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.20 19:12:00 - [43] Well made points, but I've never seen anyone wanting CCP to make Eve like WOW. If anything its the opposite.
Dikanal	Posted - 2008.10.20 19:24:00 - [44] EVE has definitely taken some changes towards the mass market but I don't think the idea is to make the game more like WoW its because of the upcoming competitors in a market that was previously CCPs own. EVE has sat like a colossus dominating the MMO internet spaceship genre but other there are other games on the way, whether these new competitors will be any good will have to be seen but CCP undoubtedly must have some concerns and if the new games are any good EVE could loose a substantial chunk of its existing players and much worse is the possibility that they could suck in EVEs potential playerbase as people wanting to try internet spaceships could try those games instead.
Frelix Blueprint Haus Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.10.20 19:26:00 - [45] So, SOE dumbs the game down. Rather than an open ended skill system, you have 6 deadlocked classes that unlock skills based on what level you are (ala WoW). They KNOW they will **** people off. However, they figure that they would attract more people than they would lose. Guess what? They didn't. SOE learned the harsh lesson that making a GOOD game is FAR better than appealing to the masses. SWG loses huge portions of its population, game almost dies, GG SOE. ------------------------------ Where do you get your info from? Just because you left? And others unhappy left? SWG had the second biggest contingent at Fan Faire this year, after the EQ folks, and they were pretty Rabid about their game. I like EVE as it is and desire to see only minimal changes, and certainly not to the core game. Howerever everytime the SWG NGE thing comes up, I LOL. The two games were/are nothing alike. And it was Lucas Films that required SOE to make the changes, Lucas didn't like the way it was running, not SOE.
faxtarious Kai-Zen inc.	Posted - 2008.10.20 19:31:00 - [46] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 20/10/2008 00:09:12 In most arguments I see one argument that is so flawed, so damn annoying, that I am compelled to make a post about it. The "X would make CCP more money so they are going to/they should do this". This usually comes up in threads debating EVE's core design like skill training, PVP (non consensual, wardecs, etc) Basically, the crux of the argument is that CCP could appeal to more people if they changed design principles around to make it more like a mainstream MMO. DISCLAIMER: SWG NGE ANALOGY APPROACHING Lets take SWG. It was a pretty good game with a rather complex skill system. It was unique and it was going pretty well, but not perfect. Suddenly, SOE gets the idea that they can attract more mainstream players (WoWplayers) by streamlining/simplifying/dumbing it all down. The reasoning is that if X game has a huge playerbase, then making the game more like Game X will increase your playerbase. So, SOE dumbs the game down. Rather than an open ended skill system, you have 6 deadlocked classes that unlock skills based on what level you are (ala WoW). They KNOW they will ** people off. However, they figure that they would attract more people than they would lose. Guess what? They didn't. SOE learned the harsh lesson that making a GOOD game is FAR better than appealing to the masses. SWG loses huge portions of its population, game almost dies, GG SOE. So how does this relate to EVE? Well, people have the same mindset. Whether or not it's good for EVE, people think that making EVE more like that-game-that-shall-not-be-named will make it more popular and thus CCP should do it for more money. Guess what: It wont. EVE Online is successful because it's a good game. The developers have core design principles and the game mechanics all work together to achieve those. If there is a problem with the game, it's because it doesn't accurately reflect those initial principles and CCP tries to rectify that. That's how the game gets better. World of Warcraft is successful because it has core principles (xp-based system, PVE with optional PVP, cooperative gameplay, etc) and it's successful because WoW is -damn- good at achieving those. Those principles aren't the same as EVE's principles and people should learn to accept that. If EVE tries to become WoW in space, then it will die, horribly...just like WoW would die if it tried to become EVE. This brings us to the final, obvious conclusion: What's good for the game is what will increase subscriber numbers. There's no way for CCP to make the game shitty and increase subscriber numbers. Increased subscriber numbers is a BYPRODUCT of CCP improving the game. Stop this "But it would appeal to more people" bullshit, it doesn't work. If you are a person who dislikes EVE's core design principles: don't *, go back to a game that meets your needs. I didn't like WoW. I didn't *** on the forums because I thought the game should change for me, I simply quit and found something else. tl; dr: WoW is WoW and EVE is EVE, and if you try to make EVE into WoW then I hope an elephant steps on your balls. can someone please tell Mc Cain that this guys makes a hell of allot more sense than Palin ?
Kravick Drasari	Posted - 2008.10.20 19:52:00 - [47] Quote: World of Warcraft is successful because it has core principles (xp-based system, PVE with optional PVP, cooperative gameplay, etc) and it's successful because WoW is -damn- good at achieving those. Those principles aren't the same as EVE's principles and people should learn to accept that. If EVE tries to become WoW in space, then it will die, horribly...just like WoW would die if it tried to become EVE. WoW was successful because of franchise. Its a Blizzard product so that automatically means that the game will have 1 million copies sold within the first 2 months. This game got popular by name alone. Not because the game was good. If Blizzard ****ed in a box and called it a video game it would still sell 1 million copies in the first 2 months. --- My cat Putter approves of this post.
MailDeadDrop Archon Industries	Posted - 2008.10.20 19:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Faife ...i still think the game could use space whales. I thought that was what the hauler spawns in 0.0 were... Originally by: Kahega Amielden Increased subscriber numbers is a BYPRODUCT of CCP improving the game. Err, no. That's not how CCP sees it. Increased net profit must be perceived (by CCP) as an intended consequence to CCP's actions, not a "byproduct". The obvious ways to increase net profits are to increase gross receipts ("increased subscriber numbers") or to reduce expenses. Example actions: CCP must have believed that adding the factional warfare aspect in the Empyrean Age release would increase subscriber numbers. CCP must have believed that advertising Eve Online in commercials during Battlestar Galactica would increase subscriber numbers. CCP must have believed that discontinuing ghost training will increase subscribers and/or reduce operation expenses. It's easy to delude oneself into believing that a corporation does something for "higher purposes", but it is just that: delusion. MDD Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching
Tiberius Maddox	Posted - 2008.10.20 20:01:00 - [49] Edited by: Tiberius Maddox on 20/10/2008 20:03:00 If it is CCP's intent to make EVE more like WoW, Warhammer Online, or LOTRO, then CCP's efforts must be judged to be an utter failure up to this point. Why? Because the similarities between EVE and those other games are almost nonexistent. It should be obvious to any person of even minimal intelligence that CCP walks their own path. So since this is the EVE forum I have a suggestion, and I think you'll like it: Let's talk about EVE Online instead of WoW. Cool, eh?
Lewis Atreides Caldari House Atreides trade	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Taedrin Edited by: Taedrin on 20/10/2008 19:08:10 GAH!!!!! Carebears, WoW is this way: <------------------- hardcore PvPer's Counterstrike is this way: -------------------> This is EVE. There are PvPers here. There are carebears here. Sometimes, PvPers get thrown a bone. Sometimes, carebears get thrown a bone. EVE is a dynamic game, constantly changing - shifting the balance constantly. Just because you want to PvP does not give you the right to free kills. Likewise, just because you don't want to PvP doesn't mean you can stuff all of your worldly possessions into a T1 hauler and expect not to get suicide ganked. You will adapt, or you will die. This is epic win ----------------------** While blood, carnage, and distruction may be my "happy place" that is nothing like the feeling I get while hauling 2 mill isk in goods thru low sec.
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:17:00 - [51] Originally by: Taedrin Sometimes, PvPers get thrown a bone. Hmm when was that? 2003?
Necrosmith Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:20:00 - [52] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate I give this thread my official seal of approval Dude... Your face.. Oh, and the Op is 1.0 x 10^1000000 percent correct. ------------- "Isk is cheap. Life is cheaper. This week, they're having a sale on both." Laugh until you cry: Battle Asses "Meow" is "woof" in cat.
MenanceWhite Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:42:00 - [53] lol mass appeal, a game like eve would totally go starwars galaxy fiasco if they tried that radically. EVE-online is already such a niche game that the players it tries to attract with mass appeal would play a more popular game (such as wow) and the old playerbase that played for its niche gameplay would quit. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Khen'do Khen Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.21 01:18:00 - [54] Originally by: Aodha Khan Once Eve addiction hits. No other MMORPG can satisfy. true dat But if EVE did appeal more to the masses, I wouldn't like it. The things I like about it are the things that don't appeal to the masses. And I think everyone who loves this game knows exactly what I mean without me having to go into a wall of text of detail. EVE is great as it is, a niche game. They have enough subscribers to continue to support it and new people are always joining. It needs to stay that way, and if anything, it needs to be made harsher. Originally by: Praytell Im a prime example of EVE addiction! I tried my hardest to interest some friends of mine into EVE from thier mainstream mmo's but I failed. So they asked me to come back to those games and its enjoyable for so long... EVE is where the heart is. gj CCP. Same here Freakin' sheeple have to be spoonfed...
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.10.21 04:43:00 - [55] /signed with OP's statement Football? Hell yes.
D4RT N3RDiUS	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:01:00 - [56] /signed Kahega incredibe post
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:13:00 - [57] topic's that compare the NGE to this really p1ss me off. SWG was on its AR5E well before the NGE hit. The combat upgrade was a monumental failure and the bottom line is the game was NEVER sucessfull after the holo grind. take it from a day 1 vet. The NGE was a horrible mistake, however the polulation would have not been much better than it was today with the CU still in place? why? ADK's, the lack of a end game othe than jedi grinding. the village being some of the most broken content ever relased in SWG. stop comparing this to SWG, its not the same. ive played both games since beta and it infuriates me whenb people talk out of there rectile area. Dark Materials Linkage

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