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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.06.30 01:24:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Blackpool on 30/06/2004 01:44:38
How about some facts so you can make your own decision:
If it takes you 6 days to train learning to level 5 then it will take 300 days of training skills before you save the amount of time you spent training just learning level 5.
Assuming all of your stats are say 12:
(Total stat including learning not really a possible number since base 11 + learning 5 = 12.1 but serves fine for the example)
And you have trained learning to level 5:
It will take roughly 8.13 Days to train a single stat skill from level 4 to level 5.
It will take you 146 Days of training something with that skill as a primary to make up the time spent training the stat to level 5.
If you train all of your skills up to level 5 with that same assumed 12 stats across the board.
It will take you 40.65 Days (8.13 *5) to train all 5 stats.
It will take you 443.5 Days of training skills to make up the time spent training the stats skills from level 4 to level 5.
Formulas from this board that the numbers are based on:
Time to train a skill in minutes == (points needed - current points) / ( primary attribute + 1/2 secondary attribute)
Atrribute numbers in this case are the real number not the rounded number you see on your character sheet.
To calculate the real number its: (the base from you character creation + ranks of the skill for that stat + any implants) * ( your learning skill * .02)
Edit: forgot to include learning 5 in the stats 12 calculations.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.06.30 02:38:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Blackpool on 30/06/2004 03:29:07
For training to level 5 you get +1 point. Its +1 point per level no matter what. Learning is added after the fact and is +.02% per level of learning. So in effect learning 5 gives you 1.1 point per point of stat skill.
Only having Learning 4 gives you 1.08 points per point of stat skill. You character sheet always displays the truncated (not rounded) stat. So if you stat is 10.8 it shows as 10. So at times it will appear that you gain 2 points but in reality you have only gained 1 + the fraction needed to push you over. All calculation for time to train are based off the real number not the truncated one you see on your char sheet. Please test the forumla I gave above. It has been reference in many posts here and works out exactly to the same amount of time displayed on your character sheet in game.
All of my calculations are based of the difference between having skills at level 4 versus level 5.
If your stat is at 12.1 (11 base + learning 5 giving you 12.1) and you train the stat skill from 4 to 5, your stat raises to 13.2. If you then do the same with the secondary stat you have a combined 13.2 + 1/2 of 13.2 = 19.8 points as the divisor in the time to train calcualtion versus the 18.15 with the skills at 4.
That gives you a savings of 9% in training time. From then on you save 9% on all skills with those 2 stats as primary and secondary. So if it took you 16 Days to train those 2 stats from 4 to 5. Then it is 16 Days / .09 = 177.77 Days before you save that original 16 Day investment.
This means that after that 177.77 Days if you have only trained skills with those 2 stats as primary and secondary. You will be at the same exact skill level as somebody else with only learning 4 and stats to 4 would be. But you will also have the learning skills to 5. This is the break even point. At this point you then start showing the profit from your original investment.
On the simpler side if you examine training just the skill learning from 4 to 5. This is a savings of .02% thereafter. So to calculate the time it will take you to break even on training learning from 4 to 5. Divide the time your character sheet says it takes you to train learning 4 to 5 by .02 If this is 6 days it takes 300 days to break even. After 300 days you start to show a benefit versus somebody who just stuck with learning 4.
It doesn't matter what other skills (currently existing) you train learning 4 to 5 only saves you .02% Even if you install implants its still .02% versus if you only have learning 4.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.06.30 12:26:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Blackpool on 01/07/2004 14:55:01
Edited by: Blackpool on 30/06/2004 12:48:28
So from your own example:
Electronics with all level 4 learning skills = 7 days 18 hours
Electronics with all level 5 learning skills = 7 days 2 hours
Difference between level 4 and 5 = 16 hours
So it took you 7 days 2 hours to save 16 hours. ( spent 170 hours to save 16) Savings of 9%
So to save 7 full days at that rate it will take you:
7 days = 168 Hours.
7 days 2 hours to save 16 Hours:
168 Hours / 16 = 10.5
10.5 * 7 Days 2 Hours = 1764 Hours to save 168 Hours.
So 1764 Hours = 73.5 Days.
Training your learning skills to 4 saves massive amounts of time. Training them from 4 to 5 takes much longer to pay off since the original time investment is so high.
It takes about 1 to 1.5 days to train a learning skill from 0 to 4.
It takes an Additional 5 to 7 days to train that skill to 5 from 4.
So if I train up all of the learning skills to 4 and you train up all of the learning skills to 5.
We both start at the same time.
It takes me 1.5 Days * 6 Skills (5 stats + learning) = 9 Days to train all of the skills to level 4.
It takes you the same amount of time to train to 4.
It then takes you an additional 42 days to train everything to level 5. ( the 44 from your original estimate - 9 +7 for the 5th stat you missed - perception/spatial awareness.)
So during that 44 Days I'm training other skills.
Once you are done you train skills 9% faster then I do since you have level 5 skills and I only have 4s.
After 466 Days you catch up those 42 days worth of training (9% of 466 is 41.94)
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 14:52:00 -
[4]
Ok do you agree that it takes 42 days after training
all of the Learning skills to 4 to get them all to Learning 5?
Do you understand that the difference between learning skills trained to 4 and learning skills trained to 5
is only a savings of 9%?
If you can agree with these statements then my conclusion that it takes 466 Days you catch up those 42 days worth of training is mathmatically sound.
You can easily prove to yourself that the difference in training time between all learning skills at 4 and all learning skills at 5 is roughly ~9% (it varies a bit depending on your base stats).
To do this download the excel spreadsheet linked in other places on this forum and set it up with your stats.
Then put in some training goals and examine the difference in training time with learning 4 versus learning 5.
Examine my math and mathmatically prove it wrong instead of accusing me of sniffing white board markers.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 14:52:00 -
[5]
Ok do you agree that it takes 42 days after training
all of the Learning skills to 4 to get them all to Learning 5?
Do you understand that the difference between learning skills trained to 4 and learning skills trained to 5
is only a savings of 9%?
If you can agree with these statements then my conclusion that it takes 466 Days you catch up those 42 days worth of training is mathmatically sound.
You can easily prove to yourself that the difference in training time between all learning skills at 4 and all learning skills at 5 is roughly ~9% (it varies a bit depending on your base stats).
To do this download the excel spreadsheet linked in other places on this forum and set it up with your stats.
Then put in some training goals and examine the difference in training time with learning 4 versus learning 5.
Examine my math and mathmatically prove it wrong instead of accusing me of sniffing white board markers.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 19:26:00 -
[6]
Ok I'm an arguer I admit it but:
Please note I am always comparing the difference between the skills at 4 and the skills at 5. Training from 0 to 4 has a much quicker benifit since the training time is low and benefit from the first point trained is larger then the one after it.
Since the time to train a skill is a simple calculation and the formula is known.
Time to train a skill in minutes == (points needed - current points) / ( primary attribute + 1/2 secondary attribute)
Since stats range from about a low of 4 to 30.
The following table is true:
1st collumn is your primary stat +1/2 your secondary.
That is what determines how fast you learn a skill.
2nd collumn is the % savings by increasing the primary 1 point. 1/(collumn 1)
3rd collumn is the % savings by increasing both the primary and secondary stat 1 point. 1.5/(collumn 1)
6.016.67%25.00%
6.515.38%23.08%
7.014.29%21.43%
7.513.33%20.00%
8.012.50%18.75%
8.511.76%17.65%
9.011.11%16.67%
9.510.53%15.79%
10.010.00%15.00%
10.59.52%14.29%
11.09.09%13.64%
11.58.70%13.04%
12.08.33%12.50%
12.58.00%12.00%
13.07.69%11.54%
13.57.41%11.11%
14.07.14%10.71%
14.56.90%10.34%
15.06.67%10.00%
15.56.45%9.68%
16.06.25%9.38%
16.56.06%9.09%
17.05.88%8.82%
17.55.71%8.57%
18.05.56%8.33%
18.55.41%8.11%
19.05.26%7.89%
19.55.13%7.69%
20.05.00%7.50%
20.54.88%7.32%
21.04.76%7.14%
21.54.65%6.98%
22.04.55%6.82%
22.54.44%6.67%
23.04.35%6.52%
23.54.26%6.38%
24.04.17%6.25%
24.54.08%6.12%
25.04.00%6.00%
25.53.92%5.88%
26.03.85%5.77%
26.53.77%5.66%
27.03.70%5.56%
27.53.64%5.45%
28.03.57%5.36%
29.53.39%5.08%
30.03.33%5.00%
So the higher your stats the less effect there is from adding one more point.
The first 4 points you train up of a stat have a large effect, so training the learning skills to 4 is well worth the time invested.
But training a stat skill from 4 to 5 only gains you an additional 4-8% for average stats.
Training both stats skills for a particular skill gives a combined savings of 7-12% for a skill.
So if you train all of you stat skills to 5 any skill you train has the a 7-12% savings.
Thus I can say that training all learning skills from 4 to 5 results in an average cost savings of 9% on your skill training.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 19:26:00 -
[7]
Ok I'm an arguer I admit it but:
Please note I am always comparing the difference between the skills at 4 and the skills at 5. Training from 0 to 4 has a much quicker benifit since the training time is low and benefit from the first point trained is larger then the one after it.
Since the time to train a skill is a simple calculation and the formula is known.
Time to train a skill in minutes == (points needed - current points) / ( primary attribute + 1/2 secondary attribute)
Since stats range from about a low of 4 to 30.
The following table is true:
1st collumn is your primary stat +1/2 your secondary.
That is what determines how fast you learn a skill.
2nd collumn is the % savings by increasing the primary 1 point. 1/(collumn 1)
3rd collumn is the % savings by increasing both the primary and secondary stat 1 point. 1.5/(collumn 1)
6.016.67%25.00%
6.515.38%23.08%
7.014.29%21.43%
7.513.33%20.00%
8.012.50%18.75%
8.511.76%17.65%
9.011.11%16.67%
9.510.53%15.79%
10.010.00%15.00%
10.59.52%14.29%
11.09.09%13.64%
11.58.70%13.04%
12.08.33%12.50%
12.58.00%12.00%
13.07.69%11.54%
13.57.41%11.11%
14.07.14%10.71%
14.56.90%10.34%
15.06.67%10.00%
15.56.45%9.68%
16.06.25%9.38%
16.56.06%9.09%
17.05.88%8.82%
17.55.71%8.57%
18.05.56%8.33%
18.55.41%8.11%
19.05.26%7.89%
19.55.13%7.69%
20.05.00%7.50%
20.54.88%7.32%
21.04.76%7.14%
21.54.65%6.98%
22.04.55%6.82%
22.54.44%6.67%
23.04.35%6.52%
23.54.26%6.38%
24.04.17%6.25%
24.54.08%6.12%
25.04.00%6.00%
25.53.92%5.88%
26.03.85%5.77%
26.53.77%5.66%
27.03.70%5.56%
27.53.64%5.45%
28.03.57%5.36%
29.53.39%5.08%
30.03.33%5.00%
So the higher your stats the less effect there is from adding one more point.
The first 4 points you train up of a stat have a large effect, so training the learning skills to 4 is well worth the time invested.
But training a stat skill from 4 to 5 only gains you an additional 4-8% for average stats.
Training both stats skills for a particular skill gives a combined savings of 7-12% for a skill.
So if you train all of you stat skills to 5 any skill you train has the a 7-12% savings.
Thus I can say that training all learning skills from 4 to 5 results in an average cost savings of 9% on your skill training.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 22:13:00 -
[8]
The difference between having all 6 learning skills at 4 and all 6 learning skills at 5 is 1264470 skill points.
So you have to have that many more skill points then me before you have made up the investment in taking the learning skills from 4 to 5.
The question here is not if you have 100 more skill points then me. It is if you want to have over a month+ of skill points (1,264,470 points) invested in learning or if you want them in Spaceship Command or Industry
skills....
The average character gains about 900,000 points per 30 days.
You need to make up that 1,264,470 point investment you made into learning before you have the same amount of points distributed among the other skills on your character as I do.
You will make up that 1,264,470 points at about 81,000
points per month.
So in 15.6 months you will have the same skills and you will have all 6 learning skills at 5.
So if you plan on playing for a year and 1/3:
Then by all means train the learning skills to 5.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 22:13:00 -
[9]
The difference between having all 6 learning skills at 4 and all 6 learning skills at 5 is 1264470 skill points.
So you have to have that many more skill points then me before you have made up the investment in taking the learning skills from 4 to 5.
The question here is not if you have 100 more skill points then me. It is if you want to have over a month+ of skill points (1,264,470 points) invested in learning or if you want them in Spaceship Command or Industry
skills....
The average character gains about 900,000 points per 30 days.
You need to make up that 1,264,470 point investment you made into learning before you have the same amount of points distributed among the other skills on your character as I do.
You will make up that 1,264,470 points at about 81,000
points per month.
So in 15.6 months you will have the same skills and you will have all 6 learning skills at 5.
So if you plan on playing for a year and 1/3:
Then by all means train the learning skills to 5.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 23:49:00 -
[10]
I'm saying that if we both started a new character on the same day with the same stats and now had 6 month old characters.
You having trained to all learning skills at 5 and me to all learning skills at 4.
You would have about 500,000 more skill points then I would. But those 500,000 skill points and 700,000 of there friends on your character sheet would be tied up in your learning skills.
Where as on my character sheet I would have those 700,000 points in skills in a different category such as industry so that I could have production efficiency 5 already and be building stuff at cost.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 23:49:00 -
[11]
I'm saying that if we both started a new character on the same day with the same stats and now had 6 month old characters.
You having trained to all learning skills at 5 and me to all learning skills at 4.
You would have about 500,000 more skill points then I would. But those 500,000 skill points and 700,000 of there friends on your character sheet would be tied up in your learning skills.
Where as on my character sheet I would have those 700,000 points in skills in a different category such as industry so that I could have production efficiency 5 already and be building stuff at cost.
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