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Jonna Andromedae	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:00:00 - [1] I started to think about the role of carriers and motherships recently. It's obvious that motherships are for support, and carriers too in remote repping gangs. But the hitting power of carrier is weak. After all, it's capital ship. I think that it's time to get better damage bonuses for fighters in carriers. Fighters doesn't really have good tank and normally you have 10-12 in rr fitted carrier. That's just little more than full damage fitted battleship. I just feel that ship costing 700-900 M ISK should be able to do more than just be big fat ship with few remotereppers. Tank is ok, and basically it's up to pilot how good it is. Something between 2000-3000 dps would be good for carrier. Motherships could use this too, maybe. They aren't anymore those nearly immortal low sec gank mobiles. Discuss.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:08:00 - [2] I very much doubt carriers will be getting a buff. If anything, I see them becoming more consigned to their logistics rather then dps support role. ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:11:00 - [3] Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/10/2008 13:11:45 Give them more than 1k dps and they will start interfering with the role of dreadnoughts. Give them better RR and they will become invincible. They're kind of 'stuck' in their current role. One thing I would like to see changed is maybe a slight decrease in figther DPS, but a massive HP increase, up to like 100k EHP so they can live through at least one doomsday and will be damned hard to kill.
Jonna Andromedae	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/10/2008 13:11:45 Give them more than 1k dps and they will start interfering with the role of dreadnoughts. Give them better RR and they will become invincible. They're kind of 'stuck' in their current role. One thing I would like to see changed is maybe a slight decrease in figther DPS, but a massive HP increase, up to like 100k EHP so they can live through at least one doomsday and will be damned hard to kill. 2000-3000 dps is far from siege mode dreadnoughts. But that HP increase sounds nice. I kinda like it.
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:14:00 - [5] I don't think they'll be improving the DPS of Carriers any time soon. I refer ofcourse, to this DevBlog: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=514 ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
General Paul Atomic Heroes	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:14:00 - [6] Or maybe a massively increased sig rad to there parent carrier (so you can rep your own drones) making a carriers rep useful in this way too. Ive done it with a NH and small drones =))
Brodde Dim Unseen University	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:22:00 - [7] Originally by: Jonna Andromedae It's obvious that motherships are for support, and carriers too in remote repping gangs. But the hitting power of carrier is weak. That is the point. Originally by: Jonna Andromedae I just feel that ship costing 700-900 M ISK should be able to do more than just be big fat ship with few remotereppers. Carriers should be a lot more expensive imho. They are not just big fat ships with a few remote reppers, they are the fattest ships with the best remote repping power in the game. And they can not only do this, but are great for logistics, work as refitting stations, can (theoretically) give superb gang bonuses, at the same time as they can add a substantial dps to targets anywhere in the system. If you want more dps and less remote repping, buy a dread.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:29:00 - [8] Originally by: Jonna Andromedae 2000-3000 dps is far from siege mode dreadnoughts. But that HP increase sounds nice. I kinda like it. A well fitted dread does 3500 - 4000 DPS.
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:54:00 - [9] I'm still waiting for the "battlestar" combat carriers- no ship maintenance bay and limited logistics ability but turret hardpoints so it can shoot things while deploying fighters
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Khandara Seraphim I'm still waiting for the "battlestar" combat carriers- no ship maintenance bay and limited logistics ability but turret hardpoints so it can shoot things while deploying fighters We have that one its called the moros ;) Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:22:00 - [11] I would like to see an HP increace and the Minmatar remote repper bonus increaced to 10% per level. As it stands its not really good enough to make up a 5% resist bonus. ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:35:00 - [12] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky I would like to see an HP increace and the Minmatar remote repper bonus increaced to 10% per level. As it stands its not really good enough to make up a 5% resist bonus. 7.5%/lvl would be inline with the other racial bonuses, resistances are always 5%/lvl and rep is always 7.5 (see: rokh and hyperion) Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Galan Undris	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:38:00 - [13] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky I would like to see an HP increace and the Minmatar remote repper bonus increaced to 10% per level. As it stands its not really good enough to make up a 5% resist bonus. Maybe Make it 7.5%, like other active tanking bonuses, 10% is probably too much. The only realistic straight-out buff I can see possibe is more locked targets... Although, noone is complaining about it so I guess not... (6? logistics cruisers can do 10)
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:39:00 - [14] Edited by: Misanth on 21/10/2008 14:40:52 TL;DR-version: Damage on fighters can't really go up, they got other strenghts as it is. Tho, as it is right now, all capitals, including supercaps, die really fast. Players are getting older, sp higher, getting experience, etc. Multiple dreads melt things. The price on capitals right now is just about right, if you ask me. Alliances/corps/whatever with a good cap program can easily replace a whole field of dreads, like we used to do with battleships, 's not a big difference apart from the numbers on the pricetag (and isk is worth less now than it used to, so todays situation is roughly the same). The question you got to ask yourself when fielding a cap today is if you want to field it. Not so much for the iskloss, but rather for the fuss (time, logistics) to replace it. It's more sensible to fly battleships and lose masses of them in many cases. In light of that, what really costs when having a carrier, is.. the fighters. And when fighting with them, you often lose a couple of fighters no matter how much micro-managing you do. Lag is the usual killer. After losing a few fighters in my last fleet fight I started to consider to use heaps of disposable sentries instead. If I can't control the things I might as well use something that doesn't take half an hour+ to recall, just throw it away and throw out new. Short version: I'd prefer a price drop on fighters. A health increase would be nice but still wouldn't help controlling them through lag, which is the major issue damage wise imho. So, at the end of the day, that's the only fix I'd like to see to carriers. Cheaper fighters.
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Khandara Seraphim I'm still waiting for the "battlestar" combat carriers- no ship maintenance bay and limited logistics ability but turret hardpoints so it can shoot things while deploying fighters We have that one its called the moros ;) haha good point however i was thinking something for all four races... more emphasis on fighters (+1 fighter per level bonus) and less on guns. Maybe give them large turret hardpoints?
Splash Whale Ctrl-Q Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.21 15:25:00 - [16] Carriers are fine as they are now imho. Their big, juicy, they dont deal enough DPS to be a WTFGANKMOBILE and all the different carriers have a good role + bonus for it. If you want more DPS in a carrier then fly a thanatos with a few DCU's. If you want more remote reppage power fly a Nidhoggur with that nice triage mod and remote rep bonusses. If you want a bigass tank fly the Archon or Chimera. All carriers do good at what they are supposed to do. They are not too hard to kill with the proper gang and they cant properly do OMGWTF things. ---- When in doubt, Ctrl-Q.
TimMc Gallente The Motley Crew	Posted - 2008.10.21 15:26:00 - [17] Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/10/2008 13:11:45 Give them more than 1k dps and they will start interfering with the role of dreadnoughts. Give them better RR and they will become invincible. They're kind of 'stuck' in their current role. One thing I would like to see changed is maybe a slight decrease in figther DPS, but a massive HP increase, up to like 100k EHP so they can live through at least one doomsday and will be damned hard to kill. I would like this.
vostok Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.21 16:47:00 - [18] Edited by: vostok on 21/10/2008 16:50:01 Originally by: Jonna Andromedae Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/10/2008 13:11:45 Give them more than 1k dps and they will start interfering with the role of dreadnoughts. Give them better RR and they will become invincible. They're kind of 'stuck' in their current role. One thing I would like to see changed is maybe a slight decrease in figther DPS, but a massive HP increase, up to like 100k EHP so they can live through at least one doomsday and will be damned hard to kill. 2000-3000 dps is far from siege mode dreadnoughts. But that HP increase sounds nice. I kinda like it. 3000 damage it the absolute top limit of the dps a pheonix can do. the nag isnt much better if it wants a tank. The revalation will probably do about 4 to 5 and the moros will hover closer 5 to 6 if its using blasters. So yea a nyx will out-damage most pheonix... Edit: Originally by: General Paul Edited by: General Paul on 21/10/2008 13:15:23 ~~3000~~ 1955 dps is what an un damage modded Phoenix gets (if you went full tank for whatever reason) Fixed it. (and thats with max skills, inc dread 5)
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:52:00 - [19] Just give me a low slot drone damage mod that gives ~23% (same as T2 mag stab) fighter DPS bonus. Make it like drone control units in that it only can be fitted on carriers/moms (to prevent imbalances among lesser classes). That would give a firbolg-spitting thanatos or archon with 1 of these mods, 2 drone control units and lvl 4 on carrier and fighters dps of ~1450 and ~1200 respectively. That's still blasterthron territory (my navy does 1360) and like mag stabs on dreads, requires a sacrifice in tank strength. I applauded CCP for removing the carrier's ability to uber tank AND kill at the same time, however I do think something needs to happen to give carriers the option to bring more DPS to the table. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Crackzilla The Shadow Order	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Letifer Deus I applauded CCP for removing the carrier's ability to uber tank AND kill at the same time, however I do think something needs to happen to give carriers the option to bring more DPS to the table. Even if the primary usage will be undock games? Thanatos with 3x damage mods in the lows and all dcus in the highs would shred anything undocking. Good luck popping the carrier before it can deagress and dock. A massive bump would probably be the only chance. Considering how unimportant dcu's and the thanatos fighter damage bonus is now I can't see another damage mod being very productive.
vostok Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 21/10/2008 18:07:57 Edited by: Letifer Deus on 21/10/2008 17:58:24 Just give me a low slot drone damage mod that gives ~23% (same as T2 mag stab) fighter DPS bonus. Make it like drone control units in that it only can be fitted on carriers/moms (to prevent imbalances among lesser classes). That would give a firbolg-spitting thanatos or archon with 1 of these mods, 2 drone control units and lvl 4 on carrier and fighters dps of ~1450 and ~1200 respectively. That's still blasterthron territory (my navy does 1360) and like mag stabs on dreads, requires a sacrifice in tank strength, thus providing a trade off instead of a simple boost. I applauded CCP for removing the carrier's ability to uber tank AND kill at the same time, however I do think something needs to happen to give carriers the option to bring more DPS to the table. Thats all well and good until you realise that ships asigned fighters by thanatos pimped up with damage mods at the pos will be dealing some 1000 dps from drones alone. Just imagine a full gank raven pumping out some 2000 dps while hitting you with dual heavy neut. 1000 dps vagabonds and interceptors... Not to mention the imballance it would cause across the different carriers.
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:59:00 - [22] Originally by: vostok Thats all well and good until you realise that ships asigned fighters by thanatos pimped up with damage mods at the pos will be dealing some 1000 dps from drones alone. Just imagine a full gank raven pumping out some 2000 dps while hitting you with dual heavy neut. 1000 dps vagabonds and interceptors... Not to mention the imballance it would cause across the different carriers. Except that any damage bonus that a drone/fighter gets is directly linked to the ship controlling it. Even now, a Thanatos' fighters loses their damage bonus if they are assigned to another ship; I suspect that the same thing would happen if CCP did introduce a low-slot drone damage module. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Crackzilla Originally by: Letifer Deus I applauded CCP for removing the carrier's ability to uber tank AND kill at the same time, however I do think something needs to happen to give carriers the option to bring more DPS to the table. Even if the primary usage will be undock games? Thanatos with 3x damage mods in the lows and all dcus in the highs would shred anything undocking. Good luck popping the carrier before it can deagress and dock. A massive bump would probably be the only chance. Considering how unimportant dcu's and the thanatos fighter damage bonus is now I can't see another damage mod being very productive. You're right on the undock games, I did not think of that. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Jonna Andromedae I started to think about the role of carriers and motherships recently. It's obvious that motherships are for support, and carriers too in remote repping gangs. But the hitting power of carrier is weak. After all, it's capital ship. I think that it's time to get better damage bonuses for fighters in carriers. Fighters doesn't really have good tank and normally you have 10-12 in rr fitted carrier. That's just little more than full damage fitted battleship. I just feel that ship costing 700-900 M ISK should be able to do more than just be big fat ship with few remotereppers. Tank is ok, and basically it's up to pilot how good it is. Something between 2000-3000 dps would be good for carrier. Motherships could use this too, maybe. They aren't anymore those nearly immortal low sec gank mobiles. Discuss. Lets give Motherships 5 DoomsDayDevices, because there not powerful enough. Carrier just get 2 of them and some Weaponpoints. How about 10? The only numbers I care about are 3-2-1-launch..
Presidio Hug Nutz	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:40:00 - [25] I think the viability of the triage module needs to be looked into. The negatives outweigh the benefit in most cases. -
Furb Killer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:52:00 - [26] Fixing triage is a good idea imo. Giving fighters the HP of a buffer tanked battleship is a very bad idea imo.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Furb Killer Fixing triage is a good idea imo. Giving fighters the HP of a buffer tanked battleship is a very bad idea imo. Have you lost any of them recently? They're a ***** to replace, cost about 12-15mil each and die like flies.
Mifter Hogdido Amarr eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:02:00 - [28] Originally by: vostok Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 21/10/2008 18:07:57 Edited by: Letifer Deus on 21/10/2008 17:58:24 Just give me a low slot drone damage mod that gives ~23% (same as T2 mag stab) fighter DPS bonus. Make it like drone control units in that it only can be fitted on carriers/moms (to prevent imbalances among lesser classes). That would give a firbolg-spitting thanatos or archon with 1 of these mods, 2 drone control units and lvl 4 on carrier and fighters dps of ~1450 and ~1200 respectively. That's still blasterthron territory (my navy does 1360) and like mag stabs on dreads, requires a sacrifice in tank strength, thus providing a trade off instead of a simple boost. I applauded CCP for removing the carrier's ability to uber tank AND kill at the same time, however I do think something needs to happen to give carriers the option to bring more DPS to the table. Thats all well and good until you realise that ships asigned fighters by thanatos pimped up with damage mods at the pos will be dealing some 1000 dps from drones alone. Just imagine a full gank raven pumping out some 2000 dps while hitting you with dual heavy neut. 1000 dps vagabonds and interceptors... Not to mention the imballance it would cause across the different carriers. Post when you know what your talking about. Damage bonus does only pertains to the carrier pilot. Go back to flying your battleship now.
Furb Killer Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:11:00 - [29] Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/10/2008 20:14:28 Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/10/2008 20:11:56 Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Furb Killer Fixing triage is a good idea imo. Giving fighters the HP of a buffer tanked battleship is a very bad idea imo. Have you lost any of them recently? They're a *** to replace, cost about 12-15mil each and die like flies. Battleships are also a *** to replace and cost far more. I have no issues with a HP boost, but increasing their HP 10 times and making them stronger than most fitted battleships just seems like a really bad idea to me. @mifter, glad to see you allready know how exactly not existing modules would work. Oh and btw, i also get sick of replacing drones everytime i lose them, so just give them the HP of a buffertanked battlecruiser, so arround 50k...
Mifter Hogdido Amarr eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.21 20:27:00 - [30] Edited by: Mifter Hogdido on 21/10/2008 20:27:50 @ Furb noob If you'd taken a few seconds to think about what I typed, I was referring to carriers assigning fighters in general. You fail at forum trolling.

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