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[Clarification] Not having a Skill Queue DOES NOT promote playing more

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Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:51:00 - [1] First of all, this is not a thread to discuss skill queues. There's already one thread for that issue. There's even another one created when ghost training got nerfed to demand the same thing. This thread is about fighting a well rooted idea in the minds of the developers that not having a skill queue promotes playing Eve more. From my point of view, it does not. I have a life. I need to spend at least 9 hours working, and more time out of my home if you count the time I spend on transports and doing other duties. Unluckily, some of the skills at some levels (namely level 2, 3 and 4) have shorter training times than the time I spend at work and longer than the time I can spend daily playing this game without compromising my personal life. I have a home and a son. I need to take care of both and thus my time playing Eve daily is limited. While it still leaves the weekend free to play more, I can't be all weekend pending from a game. I need to have some time for me and my son, so I can't be every 3-4 hours returning to my PC just to change a dumb skill. Not having a skill queue doesn't change the time I can devote to the game at all. It only makes my Eve experience more complicated. And makes me feel like I have a handicap compared to other players with more free time to play. So, if you still think that I'll play less by having a skill queue, in my case, you are totally wrong. I'm tired of hearing this idea over and over from the developers. It really hurts me and my relationship with the game and CCP suffers every time I read it. So, please, make it clear: in my opinion you are totally wrong by believing it. A skill queue will be a positive thing for all of us. And right now there's no technical reason for not implementing it. As for what kind of skill queue I'd like to see implemented I urge you to read the appropiate thread, where there are many different ideas, with it's pros and cons. Other players may have their own reasons for liking a skill queue. These are mine. If you (player) too believe that the devs idea that not having a skill queue promotes playing Eve more is wrong, please, give your support to this thread and express your case. Thanks for reading.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.10.24 20:29:00 - [2] I agree fully, but the Assembly Hall is the wrong place for this thread, unless your goal is to have the CSM advance a position of general disagreement with CCP with no actual new proposals in it. That really isn't something the CSM can vote for.
Dizeezer Velar League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2008.10.24 20:54:00 - [3] My skill training schedule is totally different from my EvE playing schedule, because like most people, I have a life outside EvE. Give us a skill queue. Signed.
Valuv Placeholder Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.24 22:19:00 - [4] 100% Agreed.
Hesod Adee Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.10.24 22:39:00 - [5] I don't see anything new with your argument here, nor have I seen anyone even attempt to refute it. ---------------------------------------------- I support skill queues.
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.10.24 23:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I agree fully, but the Assembly Hall is the wrong place for this thread, unless your goal is to have the CSM advance a position of general disagreement with CCP with no actual new proposals in it. That really isn't something the CSM can vote for. Well, TBH, I thought that one of the duties of the CMS was letting the worries of players be heard by the devs. Previously the CMS talked with CCP about Skill Queues, and this is what we got: Originally by: CCP Wrangler Noah (CCP) indicated CCPÆs awareness of the player frustrations with the ~6 hour duration skill trainings. However, CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play. A skill queue would be a possible solution, if there would be limitations, such as a limited amount of skills being trained, or that only skills of a total up to a certain duration can be stacked into the queue. Alex (CSM Bane Glorious) noted that players have also suggested a dual training mechanic, where players can pick a primary and secondary skill, which both train at half speed. As soon as the skill with the shortest duration is finished, the other skill will train at full speed. It was concluded that CCP will look into a solution for this issue. As a result, some priorities were assigned to the issues presented by the CSM, like this: Quote: Medium-High Priority ... 0001 Skill Queue I, like many other people, felt that a medium-high priority for this issue was not good enough. But I waited for some kind of answer to this, because I thought that maybe there were other issues that prevented a decision about this subject. Fast forward to some days ago. The ghost training nerf came, and many people who were waiting for an answer to the skill queue problem knew that now there where no other technical issues preventing a skill queue, so a thread about the subject appeared. But then, yesterday I read this: Quote: Mindstar: Skill queue is popular idea. Is this something that's being looked into? Zulupark: This was something I was UNOFFICIALLY discussing with the lead game designer in purely speculative manner. Our feels were that you're kinda opening can of worms. We want people to play the game instead of just putting things in a queue and not play. This is is not official and we'll look into this better in near future. The same old song about "no skill queue encourages playing Eve" again. We were again back at square 1... [continues...] ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Dmian Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.10.24 23:54:00 - [7] So I took the opportunity given to ask Zulupark again about this, since I'm clearly missing something here: Originally by: Dmian My only question: What in the Flying Spaghetti Monster's name makes you think that not having a skill queue encourages more playing? I have a limited amount of time I can devote to the game, and no skill queue will change that. In fact, not having a skill queue slows down my progress, so I have to wait longer to get to the desired level to do some things or fly some ships (I have a pile of lvl2 and lvl3 skills that I find difficult to train without wasting precious training time.) A 12 hs. (or two skills at a time) skill queue will be enough for me and most people with a regular job to train at least one 3 to 10 hours skill and keep the training pace of other people with more time to play. So, to make it short, why you think that, but putting things harder for people like me, you will encourage me to play more? If I need certain skill to do something in the game, and that skill ends up at 3:00 am on a working day, do you think I'm going to wake up to change skills? And do you think that I'm going to start playing at 3:00 am? And if the skill ends in the middle of the morning, while I'm at work, do you think I'm going to leave my office (I can't install anything at work without the SysAdmin's approval) to go change the skill at home and start playing the game? While at work????? Explain your reasoning, please. Thanks And this is wat I got: Originally by: CCP Zulupark Skill queue: As I said in the Live Dev Blog yesterday that's just something we were talking about and one of the risk factors we had to keep in mind. We're not really decided upon if we want a skill queue or not and it's something that requires some serious thought on our part. I'll see if I can't get CCP Hammer to answer this question in more detail. So, I really hope CCP Hammer can explain this, because no matter how I look at that statement, I really don't get it, so I must be missing something. I'm not really trying to force anything here, I just want to know why they keep saying something I don't understand (and that I don't agree with or makes no sense at all to me.) I must be missing something here, and I would really like them to explain it to me. Skill Queue or not. I know you are a CSM candidate, and I hope you will be sensible to other players worries. Specially one that looks rather demanded by us. Regards. ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Drake Draconis Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.25 06:38:00 - [8] Thats all good and fine but you really should be posting this in Jita Park... not here. I also don't see a reason to state the obvious. Assembly hall is a place to state ideas... not rants. (cough-coughghosttrainingwhinerscough-cough)
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.10.25 09:33:00 - [9] I think this is a veery good point, EVEN if posted in the wrong forum . I believe there is some discussion about maybe having the skill queue issue raised again. If it does, I will make sure that this point is included.
Deldrac Bat Country	Posted - 2008.10.25 09:45:00 - [10] Completely agree. Obviously.
Seriya The Priory	Posted - 2008.10.25 11:01:00 - [11] Edited by: Seriya on 25/10/2008 11:01:36 "Having no skill queue encourgages people to log in and play." is a ridiculous idea. Anyone with a modicum of common sense can see that. What I think CCP might actually mean when they say that is "No skill queue discourages people from running multiple accounts purely to raise characters they're not going to play." Regardless, I don't see that this is a good enough reason to inconvinience the rest of us, nor is it even necessarily desirable to do so.
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.10.25 11:17:00 - [12] Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 25/10/2008 11:17:51 Exacty the point I'm trying to make, and the reason why I'm pushing for a skill queue again even after CCP kinda dismissed it. As if I somehow want to play Eve at 4 in the morning... Comes home Brother: "Heya, want a drink?" Me: "Yeah in a few minutes, my skill ended training 15 minutes ago but my buss was late blahblah" rushes upstairs to set another skill Really good gaming experience eh? --- Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
Inspiration	Posted - 2008.10.25 12:01:00 - [13] I agree with the OP, but there is more, so read on! I understand CCP's argument against skill queues, but they are missing something. A queue suggests that we want different skills lined up in a queue so a player can get away for weeks at an end and still get his training done. This suggestion is incomplete, misleading even, a queue can also be implicit for level 1-4 skills and apply only to the skill being trained. That way people don't have to stay up loosing sleep just to micromanage level1 -> level 2 -> level 3 -> level 4 transitions of a skill. This is the major grief of not having a skill queue, EVE skill training dictating your life and body clock in order of not loosing in-game ability. The real change that is needed that will not be exploitable and will not add complexity to the game, but only a few lines of code is this: On skill training complete: If ( level achieved < 4 ) then start training next level of the skill. That is ALL! No more, no less and you will end this discussion once and for all and everyone will be happy!
Dierdra Vaal Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.10.25 12:52:00 - [14] Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 25/10/2008 12:53:15 my opinion exactly. Just because I log in to change a skill before I head to class, doesn't mean I suddenly change my mind after logging in and decide to spend 2 hours doing missions. People log in to play the game. Switching skills is just a chore.
Another Forum'Alt	Posted - 2008.10.25 16:19:00 - [15] Nerf Zulupark. NOW.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.25 17:27:00 - [16] Originally by: Dmian Not having a skill queue doesn't change the time I can devote to the game at all. It only makes my Eve experience more complicated... ... and cumbersome, bothering, etc.
Saffron Noire	Posted - 2008.10.26 02:02:00 - [17] Totally agree with OP
Doonoo Boonoo	Posted - 2008.10.26 11:58:00 - [18] CCP have NO excuse not to give us a skill queue now that the 'orrible ghost training bug has been 'fixed'.
Wikis	Posted - 2008.10.26 15:53:00 - [19] +1
Anderling	Posted - 2008.10.26 16:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Inspiration I agree with the OP, but there is more, so read on! I understand CCP's argument against skill queues, but they are missing something. A queue suggests that we want different skills lined up in a queue so a player can get away for weeks at an end and still get his training done. This suggestion is incomplete, misleading even, a queue can also be implicit for level 1-4 skills and apply only to the skill being trained. That way people don't have to stay up loosing sleep just to micromanage level1 -> level 2 -> level 3 -> level 4 transitions of a skill. This is the major grief of not having a skill queue, EVE skill training dictating your life and body clock in order of not loosing in-game ability. The real change that is needed that will not be exploitable and will not add complexity to the game, but only a few lines of code is this: On skill training complete: If ( level achieved < 4 ) then start training next level of the skill. That is ALL! No more, no less and you will end this discussion once and for all and everyone will be happy! I support this post for 100%, and I am pretty sure that at least 99/100 of the EVE community will support this idea. It would certainly make me play more, as I have more time to finish real-life matters. As these matters are finished, I will have more time to spend in-game, as I won't have to interrupt real-life matters just to change skills. +1
Wentau	Posted - 2008.10.27 03:13:00 - [21] Yes! Yes! Yes! When will CCP DO SOMETHING about this? Obviously a need. Obviously desired. Obviously helpful. Obviously CCP is badly managed. This is not exactly on topic, but i just gotta add that I heard a speech on Ted.org by a guy named Charles Leadbeater (look it up). The guy talked about some game designer in China with 9000 servers, 250 million (yep, you read it right: MILLION) players and at any one time 4 million of them are online!!!! AND the guy only has 500 employees. The reason for so much loyalty: the customers create content. ITs a democracy. People want to be involved in the things they love. How many people play EVE at any one time: 30,000-40,000. How much say do we get in the game: very little. CCP is NOT a democracy - kinda like the US. (lol) CCP: listen to your customers.
Belmarduk M.A.R.S. Enterprises Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.10.28 07:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Dmian Stuff [/quote This ! /signed Mainchar:
Phoenix492 Orion Expeditions	Posted - 2008.10.28 10:46:00 - [23] This is much needed CCP.EVERYONE (inluding you GM's) have a Real Life. I know several people in game who, in RL are part of their countries military (including myself). The way the world is at the moment, means long time away from home, and without computers. It's bad enough to get back and find out that the part of 0.0 you lived in is owned by someone else, but then to find that you've wasted X amount of months away, you haven't advanced in Eve at all. It would be nice to put two long skills on, one after the other..so at least in the months away, we'll have learnt something.. I DON'T understand why CCP haven't implemented this. It's much needed, and they have NO comne back as to why they won't implement it. So what if people don't play for two hours instead of 30 seconds to skill pop? CCP still get their numbers of people logging in. People will still play, adding a skill queue won't stop people from playing the game for hours on end, AFKing it at work and such. It is Something that almost 100% of players want...yet CCP haven't implemented it? How would CCP feel if people just cancelled their accounts whilst they were away? losing more members, and then people have very little reason to log back in as they have to re-active their accounts? Come on CCP..Why don't you listen to the paying customers for *ONCE*? Blah.
Jamburasca	Posted - 2008.10.28 12:23:00 - [24] I don't see why this keeps coming up, in some form or fashion, over and over. The whol;e ordeal seems pretty clear: Us: Can we have a Skill Que please? Them: Maybe, we'll look into it and see if it a good thing for CCP and it's players. It is what CCP has said again and again. What's to ponder? You think it is your right because you demand it? Relax, they'll work it out. If you don't like the results of the decision vote with your dollars/euros, quit. Seems simple. I like the OP's spin because he talks about his experience, not OUR experience. To conclude, if I was waking up in the middle of the night, or avoiding my responsibilities in real life to change a skill in a fantasy space game- I might have to take a deep look at myself and what is really important in my life.
Digaph	Posted - 2008.10.28 14:58:00 - [25] I've read quite a bit into the subject of skill queues and come to believe that the only real reason not to implement such a system is the fact that there are people currently managing multiple accounts just to sell trained characters as soon as they finished training a certain amount of skills. Assuming that's the case the following should also be taken into account. I've played EVE for about 1 month a year ago and stopped playing as I couldn't fit EVE into my daily life and seeing the gab between my skills and those of players years ahead of me only grow larger and larger made me conclude EVE wasn't the kind of game I was able to catch up in. Like myself several friends also stopped playing EVE for the same reason and from what I've read many more accounts get deactivated on a regular basis for this reason. Not implementing a feature that would allow players with less playing time to keep up with skill training is costing CCP many accounts already. Next to that I strongly believe that if it's easier to learn skills ( read plan skills for longer periods ) the need some people may feel to buy a pre made character will drop as well, making the single argument not to implement such a feature suddenly weight a lot less. So I totally agree to the need for a queue system in EVE one way or the other. Cheers, Digaph
Privacy Policy	Posted - 2008.10.28 17:44:00 - [26] I agree 100%!!!!! A skill queue will not effect my game playing time at all! I play all the time and I STILL find it ANNOYING to have to check skill training times, etc. We need a LARGE skill queue!!! EVE should have a system that is similar or even identical to what is offered by EVEmon. Utilities such as EVEmon are popular because they are a needed and very useful utility. The obvious popularity of EVEmon should tell CCP that utilities such as EVEmon are necessary and MUST be implemented in-game.
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2008.10.28 17:46:00 - [27] What dosr of trouble could this cause, ugly eve code strike back or what is the excuse now?
Datsun Achura Perkone	Posted - 2008.10.28 19:20:00 - [28] Agree with OP, the excuse CCP has given just isn't valid. Giving us a skill queue would be one of the most player-friendly moves CCP could do. There is clearly a demand for this and it was on the drawing board for years yet from the way Zulupark was talking suggests that implementation has never seriously been considered. Please stop brainstorming new reasons why we can't get one and gieve!!!
Freezehunter O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.28 21:40:00 - [29] Fully aggree with the OP /signed
Girolamo Poquelin	Posted - 2008.10.29 18:08:00 - [30] /agreed It doesn't make me play more - unless you count 1 min drop-ins and AFKing it for hours on end while I'm principally occupied elsewhere. One wonders how much less lag there'd be if people weren't encouraged in these silly behaviours. I am quite sure that someone at CCP has studied player behaviour and discovered that most people, upon logging in, fiddle with their skills - some then go on to play. CCP has, from this, drawn the erroneous conclusion that those people were enticed to play by having to log in to change skills. Such a conclusion is erroneous because there is another explanation for such a behaviour: people deliberately choose skills which will be ready just as they log in next.

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