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Undertow Latheus
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Posted - 2008.10.26 01:49:00 -
[1]
First of all... although i love eve and its by far the best mmo i've ever played imo, it does have at least 2 major drawbacks, which are related to the implementation of a third tech tier...
1.) Divide between noobs and veterans. If someone would find out about eve tomorrow, and play 5 hours a day for the rest of their or eve's life, they would never catch up with the people who started in 2003 and have been playing ever since. This creates a feeling of being gimped, perpetual noobishness, and a little hopelessness that you're ever going to be relatively good
2.) I know it's a long shot, but it is possible (more so if you specialize very specifically in one race, one style, one role, etc.) that you train every skill important to you, and then have nothing to do. I know this is a stretch but its a real possibility for the oldest of veterans who are very specialized.
Now to connect the obvious dots... The introduction of new tech levels, new levels to aim for, is essential for people who have been playing eve for years because it does just that--gives them something higher to aim for, reignites their interest, and keeps them playing eve.
However, this furthers the divide between noobs and veterans. Say in about... 2 years, anyone who is fairly experienced will be flying T3 ships fairly effectively. This will make it much harder on new players. It's already hard, and the training times are daunting, to catch up with experienced pilots and just get into T2 ships of one race of one role. New players will join, see how horribly behind they are, put in a plan into evemon and see how many months it would take (and consequently how much money would be spent on GTC's or a subscription) before they could be on par with the majority of pilots, and many would simply decide it's not worth it.
What is CCP doing in regards to this? Are they thinking about this and trying to avoid it?
In my opinion, one of two things have to be done at least.
1.) Most T3 ships have to be specialized so they don't automatically dominate ships of lower tech levels in every possible battle scenario (maybe some sniper classes?)
2.) Make it possible for noobs to fight noobs. I'm definitely not suggesting to make it impossible for a veteran to gank an unsuspecting noob or take any of the freedom out of combat the way it currently is, but perhaps host tournaments for people of varying levels of experience so new players can feel some sense of accomplishment, have short term incentives, and let them have more fun.
ps, I'd still like to see my monster rifter and T2 or T3 cane(s) ;) |
EnslaverOfMinmatar
Yarsk Hunters
DeaDSpace Coalition
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Posted - 2008.10.26 01:51:00 -
[2]
you should uninstall and unsubscribe right now |
Khemul Zula
Amarr
Black Plague.
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Posted - 2008.10.26 01:56:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Undertow Latheus
1.) Divide between noobs and veterans. If someone would find out about eve tomorrow, and play 5 hours a day for the rest of their or eve's life, they would never catch up with the people who started in 2003 and have been playing ever since. This creates a feeling of being gimped, perpetual noobishness, and a little hopelessness that you're ever going to be relatively good
Technically this is wrong. Since newer character develop faster and have better stats (especially if that 2003 char thought charisma was a good thing) they will eventually catch up and even overtake the older character. Granted it may take a very very long time for that to happen.
Can't be bothered to read the rest.  |
Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.10.26 01:58:00 -
[4]
Speccing in one race for that length of time is really stupid, you'll be crushed by the nerfbat.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.10.26 01:59:00 -
[5]
1) You're wrong. How do I know? I have multiple accounts. One of them is a few months old and can kill the oldest character, even tho he is far superior skill- and shiptype wise. It's a matter of what you put up against what. Rock, scissors, you know.
2) Zulupark addressed that in the Q&A-sticky on the top of these forums. A 2003-player asked exactly that you are putting down here, and Zulupark answered CCP is aware of it and got stuff in the coming for that.
As for t3, reading what Zulupark typed + combine with previous CCP-statements, it's doubtful t3 ships will be upgrades of the t1/t2 series and further make 'vets more powerful', as I believe you see it. It's totally new shiptypes/roles that will do their own kind of things.
You know, t1 ships still fill a purpose? Ever thought about why t1 Battleships are so common in fleets for example? Insurance payout cover alot more than what you can get from t2 ships, the ship still pack a punch and have a decent buffer, and can be used by everyone from noob to vet. And t1 frigs still make excellent suicide tacklers.
More sp does not mean auto-win. |
Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.10.26 02:15:00 -
[6]
Your missing a few points:
Max skills in a ship is max skills in a ship. It may take time but it doesn't take forever.
A player who has played longer simply has more variety. This is akin to having leveled more character classes to 70.
t3 is claimed to be "different, not better" if this holds true the gap stays the same. By the same token the skill reqs may well be different, not higher.
You haven't lived until you've been killed by two or three players significantly newer to the game than you. A little fish might have difficulty against a big fish, but a school of piranha is not to be sniffed at.
You don't quit life because you realize you'll never be the president, a moviestar, or a billionaire. Even a large gap between the haves and have-nots does not belittle or detract from the quality the have-nots existence. |
iudex
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.10.26 02:21:00 -
[7]
As it has been said so often, there are many skill trees, but they are not very deep, except for capital ships. Quite a while ago i finished training cruise missile specialization 5, the last skill to have maxed out skills for a cruise missile raven + support- /tanking- /cap- /grid- /cpu- /targeting skills etc. Although i started 2006, there is noone that started 2003 and has better skills for a cruise missile raven than me, so i don't have that feeling that i'd never catch up with the vets.
For smaller ships it takes even less time to max out everything, so the only advantage (besides capital ships) for a vet is that he can chose between many ships and roles, he has a greater variety, but once he picked his ship, he has no advantage over the newb that specialized in one field and is using his ship where his skills are.
T3 might be a chance to specialize even further in a skilltree, it might be another aim for characters, which are longer in game but dont fly capital ships, a longterm goal to keep people in a state where they are looking forward to finish a skill and don't have to train skills which they actually don't need.
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Boma Airaken
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2008.10.26 03:22:00 -
[8]
People who choose to stay in NPC corps, or run out and join huge anonymous territorialist alliances have these problems. People who join tight knit, family oriented corps and/or alliances where everyone has a face and a role do not. |
ozz gonarun
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Posted - 2008.10.26 03:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Boma Airaken
People who choose to stay in NPC corps, or run out and join huge anonymous territorialist alliances have these problems. People who join tight knit, family oriented corps and/or alliances where everyone has a face and a role do not.
This, you play for the experience and community more than to become the Uber dood. Think about it, in MD forum, SP is only looked at to make sure you are telling the truth about what you can do. The main thing is reputation and friendliness. |
Khemul Zula
Amarr
Black Plague.
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Posted - 2008.10.26 03:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Boma Airaken
People who choose to stay in NPC corps, or run out and join huge anonymous territorialist alliances have these problems. People who join tight knit, family oriented corps and/or alliances where everyone has a face and a role do not.
Is that similar to the principal here in the US that living in a small town makes you a better person? |
Boma Airaken
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2008.10.26 05:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Khemul Zula
Is that similar to the principal here in the US that living in a small town makes you a better person?
I'd say its more in line with a myriad of sayings all over the world that say the more you interact with your community, the more you learn from those around you, and the more you give to your community in return in the form of service, the better off you will be.
Though from personal experience, I can't really disagree with the small town thing. Even in New York, you have small towns. They just occupy less space. |
soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.10.26 05:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
you should uninstall and unsubscribe right now
but give me your stuff first |
sg3s
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.26 07:36:00 -
[13]
How the hell can you even discuss this without knowing what t3 -or whatever they are going to introduce- is?...
This topic is useless until we actually know. |
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CCP Applebabe
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Posted - 2008.10.26 07:53:00 -
[14]
Moved to " Features & Ideas " forum.
Applebabe
Community Representative
CCP Games, EVE Online
Email / Netfang
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The Trevolutionary
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Posted - 2008.10.26 18:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Undertow Latheus
1.) Divide between noobs and veterans. If someone would find out about eve tomorrow, and play 5 hours a day for the rest of their or eve's life, they would never catch up with the people who started in 2003 and have been playing ever since. This creates a feeling of being gimped, perpetual noobishness, and a little hopelessness that you're ever going to be relatively good
... not at all. The only thing players that have been playing since 2003 have over someone playing a few months is that they can fill more niches, and fly more fits effectively. But someone playing for say 5 months can very easily beat someone that has been playing for years, they just have to be focused with their training.
So basically, this argument should have died in a fire a long time ago.
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Kittamaru
Gallente
Democracy of Klingon Brothers
Utterly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.10.26 19:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
you should uninstall and unsubscribe right now
x2...
Dude, just no... I want T3 ships for the possibilities... and T4 and T5 |
Gimpb
Deathwatch Ltd
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Posted - 2008.10.27 00:25:00 -
[17]
I'm personally hoping T3 is mostly based around new skills as opposed to just more training of the current skills. Considering they've said it's something completely new, that sounds fairly likely.
But if it's that big a deal to you:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=channel&channelID=734105 |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Max skills in a ship is max skills in a ship. It may take time but it doesn't take forever.
t3 is claimed to be "different, not better" if this holds true the gap stays the same. By the same token the skill reqs may well be different, not higher.
Daelin summed it up. The OP has a point in there, if badly made and on incorrect assumptions. T3 ships/modules and beyond should never be 'better T1 ships/modules'. Once you go down the WoW-levelling route, forever will it dominate the game.
A very good post a while back, which a lot agreed with (if I find time, I'll dig it up and link it) discussed how EVE already has a lot of depth in places, and what it should expand is width (barring places where we really do have no current depth). More possibilities, more ways to do things, these are good for the game. Having type X that you use for the first year of your game and type Y that is just so much better for the second year and onwards is not a good principle. Some has crept into EVE (e.g. mining barge progression, named modules) but for the most part, almost every ship in EVE has a point to it that remains valid throughout your EVE career.
T3 should not change that. It should offer new ways to do things, new differences, new specialisations, but not invalidate existing ships/modules.
As for the divide between new and old, the OP really did get the wrong end of the stick. The divide is there but it's not about SP, it's about ISK and that's inevitable.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Environmental Effects
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:16:00 -
[19]
Edited by: lecrotta on 27/10/2008 13:16:51
Originally by: Undertow Latheus
1.) Divide between noobs and veterans. If someone would find out about eve tomorrow, and play 5 hours a day for the rest of their or eve's life, they would never catch up with the people who started in 2003 and have been playing ever since. This creates a feeling of being gimped, perpetual noobishness, and a little hopelessness that you're ever going to be relatively good
Ive been playing since 2003 and a 6 month old caldari player has better skills in caldari ships and weapons and shield systems than i do as i have never trained them.
Originally by: Undertow Latheus
1.) Most T3 ships have to be specialized so they don't automatically dominate ships of lower tech levels in every possible battle scenario (maybe some sniper classes?)
So if t3 is not better than t2 or t1 what should it be, worse or just so expensive that nobody uses it in PVP like most of the new BS additions like marauders.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: lecrotta
Ive been playing since 2003 and a 6 month old caldari player has better skills in caldari ships and weapons and shield systems than i do as i have never trained them.
Your point being?
Originally by: lecrotta
So if t3 is not better than t2 or t1 what should it be, worse or just so expensive that nobody uses it in PVP like most of the new BS additions like marauders.
Different. Balanced. Look at Marauders. T2 Battleships, nice firepower, awful ECM stats. Everything is a trade-off. You cannot have top-level (the hint there is in the word level) ships that completely obsolesce their predecessors in a persistent non-level-based game - otherwise we might as well drop the pretense and all 'go back to WoW'.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Environmental Effects
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