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Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.10.27 03:14:00 -
[1]
TL;DR: When flying ships with bonuses to kinetic damage, you should use kinetic missiles for every NPC except Amarr/Blood/Drones.
Having recently cross-trained for Caldari, I've been wondering whether or not it's true that the kinetic damage bonus for the drake means you should just use kinetic missiles against every type of NPC.
Some quick mental math made me think this was true against everything except Amarr ships, but I wanted to be sure so I made a big-ass spreadsheet.
This uses the NPC imformation from elfarto's website.
This isn't exhaustive, if I wanted to be perfect I would use the data export and write some quick scripts to crunch all the numbers. But I doubt the result would be any different. Note I haven't got Gallente or Minmatar navies on here as I don't fight them, but they would be the same as Serpentis and Angels respectively.
Where an NPC has different values for shield and armor resists, I have shown these in italic gray and then averaged them in a third line. This isn't perfect as they usually have slightly different armor & shield amounts, but again I think it's good enough.
This also assumes you have the bonused skill to level V for the maximum kinetic damage. If you only have the skill to 4 or less, it becomes much less clear cut. Maybe I'll recalc for different skill values if I can be bothered.
Click for the data
So, overall this is nothing that most of us didn't already know, but I just wanted to make sure etc...
Let me know if I've got something horribly wrong!
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Iracham
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.27 11:59:00 -
[2]
You appear to have forgotten Sanshas.
Interesting information though, even though I don't fly Caldari. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:20:00 -
[3]
Just two (or maybe three) things.
First, as the previous poster said, you forgot to list Sanshas (which would fall into the same category as Bloods and Drones anyway - but even there L5-skill in kin damage bonus makes kin damage marginally acceptable, especially since you don't have to worry about stockpiling two different types of ammo and neither of those three factions have NPCs with particularly strong tanks overall to begin with - personaly, I'm lazy enough to always shoot Scourges and not really bother).
Second, why is the bonused damage listed as 127.6 ? It should be 125.0 (heck, preferably even just 120 since most people fly with kinetic-bonus-damage skill at L4, not L5).
Third, it WOULD help a lot if you would also calculate the same thing for player-controlled drones, since they have the same base damage but different damage multipliers. Yeah, most Caldari ships don't have that much drone firepower, but in some cases it's quite noticeable.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.10.27 22:31:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Akita T
Just two (or maybe three) things.
First, as the previous poster said, you forgot to list Sanshas (which would fall into the same category as Bloods and Drones anyway - but even there L5-skill in kin damage bonus makes kin damage marginally acceptable, especially since you don't have to worry about stockpiling two different types of ammo and neither of those three factions have NPCs with particularly strong tanks overall to begin with - personaly, I'm lazy enough to always shoot Scourges and not really bother).
Second, why is the bonused damage listed as 127.6 ? It should be 125.0 (heck, preferably even just 120 since most people fly with kinetic-bonus-damage skill at L4, not L5).
Third, it WOULD help a lot if you would also calculate the same thing for player-controlled drones, since they have the same base damage but different damage multipliers. Yeah, most Caldari ships don't have that much drone firepower, but in some cases it's quite noticeable.
I thought the bonus was calculated as dmg*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05; i.e. each level is added cumulatively? |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.10.28 00:10:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/10/2008 00:14:55
Bonus is * (1 + 0.05*level), not 1.05^level.
ALL skill bonuses work like that.
It's only when you're dealing with multiple skills affecting the same thing you do multiplication.
So a -5% RoF at L5 ? Means -25% RoF. +7.5% repair at L4 ? Means +30% repair.
But two separate +5% damage bonuses both at L5 ? It's 1.25*1.25=1.5625.
The only exception to that rule is LP-boosting social skills, where both the skills affecting the agent get added instead of multiplied (so both at L5 is just a +50% LP gain not a +56.25% gain).
P.S. There's a few more "almost exceptions" to that rule (margin trading, remote job skills, no-bonus skills and so on), but the mechanics behind each of them is explained in the skill description (or you are aware they give out no quantifiable bonus), so I first thought they're not worth mentioning as exceptions... but added this for completeness' sake.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.10.28 05:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Akita T
First, as the previous poster said, you forgot to list Sanshas (which would fall into the same category as Bloods and Drones anyway - but even there L5-skill in kin damage bonus makes kin damage marginally acceptable, especially since you don't have to worry about stockpiling two different types of ammo and neither of those three factions have NPCs with particularly strong tanks overall to begin with - personaly, I'm lazy enough to always shoot Scourges and not really bother).
There's a point where one could say you are being too lazy, and you are past that point.  Though I will give you that EM weak NPCs are fairly easy to take out, I think it has more to do with lower rate of defender missiles than actual "weak" tanks, and Sansha's actually have pretty good tanks despite that.
But still, doing 20% less damage (and that's with level 5 ship skill going towards kinetic) simply is not acceptable if you can help it... so please use EM against Blood / Sansha / Drones no matter what you're flying. It's worth it. |
Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.10.28 07:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 28/10/2008 00:14:55
Bonus is * (1 + 0.05*level), not 1.05^level.
ALL skill bonuses work like that.
It's only when you're dealing with multiple skills affecting the same thing you do multiplication.
So a -5% RoF at L5 ? Means -25% RoF. +7.5% repair at L4 ? Means +30% repair.
But two separate +5% damage bonuses both at L5 ? It's 1.25*1.25=1.5625.
The only exception to that rule is LP-boosting social skills, where both the skills affecting the agent get added instead of multiplied (so both at L5 is just a +50% LP gain not a +56.25% gain).
P.S. There's a few more "almost exceptions" to that rule (margin trading, remote job skills, no-bonus skills and so on), but the mechanics behind each of them is explained in the skill description (or you are aware they give out no quantifiable bonus), so I first thought they're not worth mentioning as exceptions... but added this for completeness' sake.
LAWL that's freaking hilarious... what a thing to get wrong for 2+ years! I'll update the sheet and yes a drone version is a good idea too... |
Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.10.28 09:51:00 -
[8]
OK, I changed the main sheet so it has a column for each level of the bonus. For e.g. if flying a drake, it shows you what you get for Battlecruiser lvl 1,2,3,4 & 5. it's kind of interesting and shows that the bonus isn't as great as I had thought until you get to level 4 at least.
I also created another sheet to show how much damage each drone type does against NPCs. Again, for a long time I've used thermal drones only because of the bigger multiplier they have. People always say to use them all the time instead of swapping out according to NPC type. Well... that's not really true. In fact, it looks like kinetic drones are at least as good as thermal and often better.
Perhaps I need to go take a look at this again because this totally surprised me
Anyway, I've updated the OP with new links. |
Elias Modron
Rage For Order
Nihil-Obstat
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Posted - 2008.10.28 10:23:00 -
[9]
I knew Berserkers were best against Angels! Hahah!
I've had people swear to me that Ogres kill Angels faster and I always denied this, it's nice to have some numbers to back it up.
And yes, kinetic drones being best against Guristas and Serpentis is surprising. I always though that the extra damage Ogres did overcame the slightly higher thermal reists for those factions. Wasps also travel faster than Ogres, so maybe I will have to train Caldari Drone Spec IV and see.
Thanks for this!
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zzCoins
Caldari
Decorum Inc
Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.28 10:33:00 -
[10]
"Where an NPC has different values for shield and armor resists, I have shown these in italic gray and then averaged them in a third line. "
The shield and armor amounts are often considerably different, also they either shield-repair or armor-repair. I thing using the larger amount and ignoring the smaller would be better. |
Akuma Tsukai
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.10.28 16:08:00 -
[11]
Much more usefull than previous piece of "work" some1 posted here, much thx. Its rather sad though, i had some hopes for amarr drones and u cruelly broke them again  
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Drones eat everything. Trust me. |
Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.10.28 19:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: zzCoins
"Where an NPC has different values for shield and armor resists, I have shown these in italic gray and then averaged them in a third line. "
The shield and armor amounts are often considerably different, also they either shield-repair or armor-repair. I thing using the larger amount and ignoring the smaller would be better.
Yeah the combination of different resists on shield/armor and the boosting of one of them is a problem.
As an example, we have the Elite Drone Parasite. It has EM resists of 0% for shield and 80% for armor. The Kinetic resists are 40% and 50%. Averaged out you would think that EM is the best damage type to use.
However, this thing boosts armor by 1200 points. What this means is that doing EM damage, you cannot eat through the 80% resist quick enough and unless you have an unholy amount of DPS you actually *cant* kill it.
I found this out doing Silence the Informant. There are other NPCs with similar issues.
However, I'm not going to start getting more and more detailed in this, it's big enough as it is and isn't meant as a comprehensive guide; I just wanted to know roughly whether 'always use kinetic missiles' or 'always use thermal drones' was actually true...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.10.28 20:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tiirae
OK, I changed the main sheet so it has a column for each level of the bonus. For e.g. if flying a drake, it shows you what you get for Battlecruiser lvl 1,2,3,4 & 5. it's kind of interesting and shows that the bonus isn't as great as I had thought until you get to level 4 at least.
Yup, I actually always said "level 4 minimum", but it's nice to see that in some cases even level 3 is marginally better.
Quote:
I also created another sheet to show how much damage each drone type does against NPCs. Again, for a long time I've used thermal drones only because of the bigger multiplier they have. People always say to use them all the time instead of swapping out according to NPC type. Well... that's not really true. In fact, it looks like kinetic drones are at least as good as thermal and often better.
I actually prefer kin drones for different reasons - to me, they seem to have the perfect balance between speed and firepower (second best speed, second best overall firepower) and the increased reliance on shield HP doesn't hurt at all either to keep them alive without a remote armor repper.
Quote:
Perhaps I need to go take a look at this again because this totally surprised me
Nah, looks almost exactly as I expected it to look like 
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
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Posted - 2008.10.29 13:19:00 -
[14]
Nice summary, thanks for putting thetime into this.
Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
Perhaps I need to go take a look at this again because this totally surprised me
Nah, looks almost exactly as I expected it to look like
Indeed -- not many surprises here!
Cheers,
Arrs
Quote:
Is it just me who says "what can I do in real life: drink beer; walk around; put on clothes; fly a spaceship firing at other spaceships" and then use that to choose what I do on the internet?
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dafone reese
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Posted - 2008.10.29 17:08:00 -
[15]
year very nice thanks. 
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Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
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Posted - 2008.10.29 23:53:00 -
[16]
You need to factor in structure hit points at 0 resists when doing this sort of thing. 0 resists means that a kinetic missile Drake/Nighthawk will get the full benefit of its bonus on all NPC's when they hit structure. It also means that thermal drones superior damage bonus gets fully applied to structure. No one ever factors in structure.
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