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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Stet
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:08:00 -
[211]
Realy on POS is output 100+100=1 20.000 hours for 1 full silo run :) Realy fun joke :(
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Stet
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:28:00 -
[212]
After Refining seen all OK. 100+100 => 1 Refining 1 => 10+95
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Albus Thumbledore
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:38:00 -
[213]
The idea I believe is simply to set a reasonable cap on the r64 prices, not to address imbalances in specific materials, the market will deal with that. My issue is the choice of r16s vs something else and what that choice means for the resulting cap price.
Lets assume you can place POS anywhere you like and all moons (except r64) are not occupied. Lets also assume you are not using faction gear. Your extraction cost for any moon material is the same (lets ignore logistics, POS wars etc.), it's simply the cost of running your POS which 'roughly' equates to: Large 228m / month = 316k / hour (cycle) Medium 118 / month = 164k / hour Small 63m / month = 88k
Using a small POS (all you need for extraction) you therefore get a base price for your material of 880k (again very approx.)
Next lets look at the new reactions. The most efficient way to produce them would be a large POS with 3 simple reactors sharing 2 input and 1 output silo. (I don't know if thats even possible but lets assume it is). The effective price of your 'replacement' r64 is then as follows
1 Large POS running cost + 300 * 'r16 replacement' + 15 * r32 = (produces) 30 x r64
This equates to ( 316k + 315*880k ) / 30 = ~20k.
So the absolute minimum price your new r64 material can be produced for is 20k. (ignore faction gear and dont even think about logistics). We should never expect to see Prom or Dyspro drop below this price.
My concerns are that a) r16 moons (in empire at least) are all taken so there is no room for new people to enter the competition. b) No new competition imho, means nothing will change. 0.0 is also not a place for new competition as it seems to be getting divided by fewer and fewer alliances. c) r16 moons are already the most used of all moon materials so their price will be competitive e.g. never close to 880k (or base cost)
My proposal is to add r8 moons at current 20:1 ratio effectively hardening the price cap as above since many moons are available and any joe can enter the field and help stabilise that cap. Also takes pressure back off r16's. Then change the r16's to 10:1 ratio allowing those moon owners to potentially undercut the r8 owners and lower the cap to 11 or 12k.
In reality we'd probably never see price caps that low due to logistics etc but even @ 12k r64 would remain a tidy profit for their owners.
My personal feeling/hunch is that since the majority of the high value assets in eve are controlled by the minority of the biggest alliances, anything that drives down the huge disparity of income will promote warfare not hinder it since there will be that many more alliances or equal ish capability. Once we can all jump out in a cap ship and pew pew without fear of a 2 month isk grind to recover a loss, then eve will be en even greater place to exist (imho). Sorry started rambling.
In summary I think this is a good start to changes that are long needed and hope to see the mechanic tweaked and extended over time ( but gimme 10:1 r16 and 20:1 r8 now !!! :) ).
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Kara Rhane
Gallente Rhane's Research and Development Labs.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 10:33:00 -
[214]
So, Quantum Rise was released with 20 to 1 ratio.
Since this ratio calculated by every single industrialist means we'll take a loss no matter how it's made we need CCP to step in and do one of four things.
1. Make the ratio better Other 10 to 1 or better so there's profit, without which no one in their right mind will do.
2. Make a new 'Inefficient Reactor' series These reactors would alot less CPU (so we don't have to run 20 towers to get the same result as someone using 1 tower to our 20), and these inefficient reactors only work on alchemy reactions. This way people can't abuse em for regular reactions all being on a single POS or whatnaught.
3. Make better usage of the other rarity 64 mins As a better ratio (say 2 to 1) or something where all rarity 64 moons will be useful. This combined with the old moons and alchemy would lead to a great increase in availability eventually.
4. Allow some mechanism for moon mining in 0.4 and 0.5 Not sure how, maybe 'moon charters', massive standings with various new controlling empire 'moon commissions' or even just saying 'screw it lets let the players just do it to fund the massive wars that are going on'. The moons in these systems have tons of moon mins that no one can touch. It would put new moons into play and even give empire corps/alliances something more to fight over.
TL:DR version Alchemy will not work in it's current format of 20 to 1 ratio. The fuel costs are astronomical, please rework it to something more sensible, considering reactors take 3,500 CPU each and at 20 to 1 that's 70,000 CPU to match someone that's using 3,500. Please consider this as players that aren't in the mega alliances will not be able to come up with that sheer amount of equipment, and isk when the end product results in a (current) loss.
Respectfully,
-Kara Rhane ***** Rhane's Research and Development LabsÖ
Click to search our Ammo's, Missiles, and Drone BPO sets. |
Driven
Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea
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Posted - 2008.11.14 20:57:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Kara Rhane
So, Quantum Rise was released with 20 to 1 ratio.
Since this ratio calculated by every single industrialist means we'll take a loss no matter how it's made we need CCP to step in and do one of four things.
1. Make the ratio better Other 10 to 1 or better so there's profit, without which no one in their right mind will do.
2. Make a new 'Inefficient Reactor' series These reactors would alot less CPU (so we don't have to run 20 towers to get the same result as someone using 1 tower to our 20), and these inefficient reactors only work on alchemy reactions. This way people can't abuse em for regular reactions all being on a single POS or whatnaught.
3. Make better usage of the other rarity 64 mins As a better ratio (say 2 to 1) or something where all rarity 64 moons will be useful. This combined with the old moons and alchemy would lead to a great increase in availability eventually.
4. Allow some mechanism for moon mining in 0.4 and 0.5 Not sure how, maybe 'moon charters', massive standings with various new controlling empire 'moon commissions' or even just saying 'screw it lets let the players just do it to fund the massive wars that are going on'. The moons in these systems have tons of moon mins that no one can touch. It would put new moons into play and even give empire corps/alliances something more to fight over.
TL:DR version Alchemy will not work in it's current format of 20 to 1 ratio. The fuel costs are astronomical, please rework it to something more sensible, considering reactors take 3,500 CPU each and at 20 to 1 that's 70,000 CPU to match someone that's using 3,500. Please consider this as players that aren't in the mega alliances will not be able to come up with that sheer amount of equipment, and isk when the end product results in a (current) loss.
Respectfully,
-Kara Rhane
What he said.
The output pace on this - 10 units per hour - just makes the entire process untenable. That's the real killer.
No one who can add is going to do this. I need a sig |
Driven
Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea
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Posted - 2008.11.18 04:07:00 -
[216]
No one. I need a sig |
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2008.12.01 13:47:00 -
[217]
Minor update to the blog: the output is, as intended, 1 unit of unrefined, which then refines down to 95 and 10 units of the two materials (with the exception of Fluxed Condensates as noted elsewhere). We realized after the blog went out that if 100 units of A refines to 10 units of B, then 1 unit of A refines to 0.1 units of B, which the invetory system doesn't support. Whoops
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PuRuSkA
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Posted - 2008.12.12 12:02:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Driven
Originally by: Kara Rhane
So, Quantum Rise was released with 20 to 1 ratio.
Since this ratio calculated by every single industrialist means we'll take a loss no matter how it's made we need CCP to step in and do one of four things.
1. Make the ratio better Other 10 to 1 or better so there's profit, without which no one in their right mind will do.
2. Make a new 'Inefficient Reactor' series These reactors would alot less CPU (so we don't have to run 20 towers to get the same result as someone using 1 tower to our 20), and these inefficient reactors only work on alchemy reactions. This way people can't abuse em for regular reactions all being on a single POS or whatnaught.
3. Make better usage of the other rarity 64 mins As a better ratio (say 2 to 1) or something where all rarity 64 moons will be useful. This combined with the old moons and alchemy would lead to a great increase in availability eventually.
4. Allow some mechanism for moon mining in 0.4 and 0.5 Not sure how, maybe 'moon charters', massive standings with various new controlling empire 'moon commissions' or even just saying 'screw it lets let the players just do it to fund the massive wars that are going on'. The moons in these systems have tons of moon mins that no one can touch. It would put new moons into play and even give empire corps/alliances something more to fight over.
TL:DR version Alchemy will not work in it's current format of 20 to 1 ratio. The fuel costs are astronomical, please rework it to something more sensible, considering reactors take 3,500 CPU each and at 20 to 1 that's 70,000 CPU to match someone that's using 3,500. Please consider this as players that aren't in the mega alliances will not be able to come up with that sheer amount of equipment, and isk when the end product results in a (current) loss.
Respectfully,
-Kara Rhane
What he said.
The output pace on this - 10 units per hour - just makes the entire process untenable. That's the real killer.
No one who can add is going to do this.
Exactly, we are now 12 december, cadmium price somehat raised by 4 time it's precious value without droping price much on other raw moon material + with the moon exploit been cut down, all price went up when it was supose to go down so our corp decided to finaly have a look into these alchemy it is simply not profitable enought to do it even with the curent price crisis, i wonder if there is people actualy doing it, and if they are doing it did they do the math before !!!
I like the idea of having another kind reactor that could simple convert some more common material into rare material we need, a FUSION reactor to be logic with physic :)
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.12.12 12:22:00 -
[219]
I am really disappointed that this was introduced like this, because I get the feeling that the way to fix this will be now ignored, because it would inconvenience the 5 people using Alchemy.
The input should be cheap as to be almost free. The costs should be almost all in amount of POS fuel required to produce it and effort, and then tweaked so that it is worth doing at a level that makes dysprosium moons valuable but not game destroying. You should have reason to fight over SPACE not just single moons.
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Rosalina Sarinna
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.12.13 02:35:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Rosalina Sarinna on 13/12/2008 02:36:13
Originally by: PuRuSkA
Originally by: Driven
Originally by: Kara Rhane
So, Quantum Rise was released with 20 to 1 ratio.
Since this ratio calculated by every single industrialist means we'll take a loss no matter how it's made we need CCP to step in and do one of four things.
1. Make the ratio better Other 10 to 1 or better so there's profit, without which no one in their right mind will do.
2. Make a new 'Inefficient Reactor' series These reactors would alot less CPU (so we don't have to run 20 towers to get the same result as someone using 1 tower to our 20), and these inefficient reactors only work on alchemy reactions. This way people can't abuse em for regular reactions all being on a single POS or whatnaught.
3. Make better usage of the other rarity 64 mins As a better ratio (say 2 to 1) or something where all rarity 64 moons will be useful. This combined with the old moons and alchemy would lead to a great increase in availability eventually.
4. Allow some mechanism for moon mining in 0.4 and 0.5 Not sure how, maybe 'moon charters', massive standings with various new controlling empire 'moon commissions' or even just saying 'screw it lets let the players just do it to fund the massive wars that are going on'. The moons in these systems have tons of moon mins that no one can touch. It would put new moons into play and even give empire corps/alliances something more to fight over.
TL:DR version Alchemy will not work in it's current format of 20 to 1 ratio. The fuel costs are astronomical, please rework it to something more sensible, considering reactors take 3,500 CPU each and at 20 to 1 that's 70,000 CPU to match someone that's using 3,500. Please consider this as players that aren't in the mega alliances will not be able to come up with that sheer amount of equipment, and isk when the end product results in a (current) loss.
Respectfully,
-Kara Rhane
What he said.
The output pace on this - 10 units per hour - just makes the entire process untenable. That's the real killer.
No one who can add is going to do this.
Exactly, we are now 12 december, cadmium price somehat raised by 4 time it's precious value without droping price much on other raw moon material + with the moon exploit been cut down, all price went up when it was supose to go down so our corp decided to finaly have a look into these alchemy it is simply not profitable enought to do it even with the curent price crisis, i wonder if there is people actualy doing it, and if they are doing it did they do the math before !!!
I like the idea of having another kind reactor that could simple convert some more common material into rare material we need, a FUSION reactor to be logic with physic :)
Wholly agree. Surely something must be done for Alchemy CCP? Once production from the 64 moons shows its true volume without the exploiting, surely it will have very tiny impact and require Alchemy to sustain its (even inflated) price. Which in turn will raise prices up and up both if non-64 moon people do nothing (only supplier being 64's raises price due to demand), or conversely take on the Alchemy commitment (they need to make profit so will factor in costs of ratio etc).
Personally, I'm all in favour of simply dropping the ratio.
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Warrio
Southern Cross Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.12.13 11:22:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Kara Rhane Please consider this as players that aren't in the mega alliances will not be able to come up with that sheer amount of equipment, and isk when the end product results in a (current) loss.
-Kara Rhane
Oh boohoo. Yes, you can play Eve in any career that you wish. Doesn't mean it will be effective. Want in to big projects? Join a big group. sXe |
Knawt Ongrid
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Posted - 2008.12.13 15:34:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Warrio
Originally by: Kara Rhane Please consider this as players that aren't in the mega alliances will not be able to come up with that sheer amount of equipment, and isk when the end product results in a (current) loss.
-Kara Rhane
Oh boohoo. Yes, you can play Eve in any career that you wish. Doesn't mean it will be effective. Want in to big projects? Join a big group.
Says the BoB pet
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Jogoo
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Posted - 2008.12.15 20:08:00 -
[223]
There is also a lack of a processing skill for alchemy. So when refining in a 50% station you need to have Refining V and Refining Efficiency V in order to get 100% (without implants)
Out in 0.0 space and 35% stations you are only going to be able to get 85% (89% with implants). With the level V's at roughly 15 days of training that is quite a grind for limited return.
There needs to be an associated processing skill for each of the alchemy reactions in order get to the stated levels in a reasonable amount of training time. |
BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.12.16 06:04:00 -
[224]
Ok, forgive my ignorance on moons, rare components etc. however i have a question..
I think cadmium is a moon mineral correct? What i see happening is dysprosium being swapped for cadmium to allow one to avoid dysprosium costs, but for a much lower output (correct me if im wrong).
The problem i see here, is that cadmium is a moon mineral. Wont this simply delay the effects were seeing today? As there is still only a set amount of moons? Or are they simply that common that such an event will never happen?
Forgive the massive lack of knowledge here, but this sounds interesting, and id like it if someone could answer these questions.. EVE history
t2 precisions |
Taldian Ravenstone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 14:41:00 -
[225]
Out of curiosity, a user posted that .4 and .5 sec moons were not avail for mining. Is this true? If so, why? It seems that the easiest way to solve these problems is to add more moons.
Taldian
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Amarria Drezine
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Posted - 2008.12.19 02:56:00 -
[226]
Great dev blog
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Darwin's Market
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:26:00 -
[227]
hey let's not make something simple which everyone can enjoy, no, let's only allow the already wealthy cartels to take advantage of this new feature, and at the same time make them work more cause burning them out is a good business plan
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Daj Mahal
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Posted - 2009.01.02 19:35:00 -
[228]
The goal of this is to reduce the bottlenecking on RARE moon minerals in T2 production.
The short term problems that exist are scalar. It now takes more of something than is feasible to produce to make an item that SHOULD compete with other items. In effect 'the system' should allow for more access to the production materials so that T2 prices will remain more stable and allow other players to participate in the industry.
The GOAL is to have fun and promote the core values of EVE.
My solution asks for something that is not as simple as a reaction at a certain ratio, but that could be easily implemented. Create an opportunity for players to work together to overcome the obstacle of rarity in moon minerals. You could do this by changing the reaction ratio to something more feasible (3:1) or whatever makes good long term sense. Once you have done this require a new component on the front end of the reaction that comes from another source that drives players.
3(A)moon mineral + 1(B)moon mineral + 1(C)NEW ITEM TYPE = Rare output
if 'C' comes from some other (altogether new) profession it means that a secondary market will open up that will allow low rarity moon miners to compete with rare moon miners IF their logistics support this new industry.
Let's use Comet mining as an example. I'm about to start really making things up here, so listen up CCP. This could require a whole new set of abilities to use that are not uncommon but could create some intesting scenarios. Lets start by saying that the comets move fast. 800 m/s, 1200 m/s, in fact, make that part of their difficulty. Now you have to blast chunks off the comet and have other ships come and pick them up. This would require TEAMWORK. Interceptors could chase down and blast comets while a second team followed the trail of debris. This comet debris could then be part C of the reactions. the appearance and rarity of comets could easily be controlled by CCP's new procedurally generated environments (you guys don't have those? might be a good idea to reduce server load by clearing empty systems). Now that you have added a new activity, EVE has even more stuff to do, its not that hard to implement, none of the existing mechanic has to change much, players can start doing it right away (doesn't require a profession worth of skill training), logistics are spread out so that it is harder to use these complex reactions because it requires players and not just more crap at your POS, and the economy WINS!!!
If you have further questions send me an EVEmail, I'll be in the outer ring, waiting to see a comet whiz by that's named after me.
I also would like to give a round of applause to CCP. They have created a living and breathing thing, and while they control it, it is also in their care. They have a responsibility to the game we all know and enjoy, and to see them working hard to keep it both familiar and dynamic is refreshing in years marked by poorly made games.
-Daj
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Research'S'Me
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Posted - 2009.01.08 15:33:00 -
[229]
I think these are the only reactions in the game where mining and selling the input is more profitable than doing the reaction itself. I'm not going to use my cadmium moons for this.
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TheOnlyProphet
Amarr Altus Provisio
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Posted - 2009.01.20 20:30:00 -
[230]
We originaly had a Crystalline Carbonide chain built, before Alchemy. Since alchemy, we set up reactors so we could produce the materials req'd to produce the components that go into t2.
We discovered that... We could in effect, make as much profit per week with our Alchemy ventures, as we were with what took twice the towers, twice the fuel, and twice the hauling.
Again though, I don't think CCP was trying to create a new market. They are trying to allow players who might not EVER have access to a dyspro moon the ability to produce stuff that would require the reactions that it takes dyspro to make.
I fully support Alchemy!
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Captain Moustache
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:48:00 -
[231]
I hope Cadmium POS owners are tightening up security.
Alchemy got a HUGE - I mean HUUUUUUUGE boost thanks to BOB's DESTRUCTION.
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Driven
Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea
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Posted - 2009.03.02 23:56:00 -
[232]
Are there any plans for the use of material such as Atmos, Evap, Hydros etc - the really crappy low end - to be applied to Alchemy in some manner to produce material such as Cadmium, Hafnium and so on?
This cascading effect would actually provide some value to these very low end materials and instead of having millions of units sitting around on market useless and unsold, they could be put to use to create a secondary market that would take the demand pressure off of these intermediate-level raw materials. I need a sig |
Driven
Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea
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Posted - 2009.04.17 21:14:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Driven Are there any plans for the use of material such as Atmos, Evap, Hydros etc - the really crappy low end - to be applied to Alchemy in some manner to produce material such as Cadmium, Hafnium and so on?
This cascading effect would actually provide some value to these very low end materials and instead of having millions of units sitting around on market useless and unsold, they could be put to use to create a secondary market that would take the demand pressure off of these intermediate-level raw materials.
Hello? Anyone home? Is this being discussed? Sure would help to alleviate the huge crunch on Cadmium. I need a sig |
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