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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.28 01:12:00 -
[31]
Risk vs reward is what CCP wants for the game. They want low and null sec space to be full of treasure, danger and excitement (pvp). By on TQ, level 4 missions are a way for people to have lol-invincible supply lines of isk to pvp with in low and null sec space, making.
However, the really big problem with level 4s is not the massive reward for little isk. The problem is that there is no player interaction (its a mmorpg ffs) and no competition and unlimited resources.
List any other main form of isk making in high sec: trading involves competition over a limited number of player sold items, mining involves competition of the biggest rocks nearest the easiest place to sell minerals, building anything means you have to sell it and compete with others, complexes can be scanned faster by another prober, etc etc etc.
But a SINGLE level 4 kill agent can supply the ENTIRE EVE population with isk.
Competition, player interaction and limited resources to fight over, that is what EVE is all about: unlimited level 4 missions have no place in such EVE.
/end report |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.10.28 01:40:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Clair Bear
But would you fly a multi-billion ISK pimped out pwnmobile for ratting like you can for highsec missions?
So I shouldn't rat Sansha in my Golem?
Why not, have you seen how fast I can kill those things. Plus it has a big cargo bay so I don't need to refill ammo and I can hold all my faction loot longer. |
Strom Kryos
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.28 01:50:00 -
[33]
0.0 you plex - hi sec you run lvl 4 missions those are the comparisms for pve.. at least if one was in 0.0 wanted to shoot rats and make isk vs doing it in hi sec. Already seen a well detailed post at how far a comparism plexing is above running lvl 4 missions. Eve's billionaires didnt get that way from doing missions and it wasnt ratting in 0.0 either (maybe both were viable a long time ago).
I run missions mostly when I have downtime from 0.0 (about once a year) and while I'm waiting out 24 hrs for jump clone (because of tending my main source of income, or getting stuff prepared to move to 0.0). Plenty of times I've ran missions during a war dec (a bit more risk than ratting in 0.0 imo). If it's too many idiots that think there is too much iskies to be made doing them.. just take the isk away to shut them up as they dont know how to really make isk. Risk vs Reward indeed, I make more isk with a few hours of complete boredom and planning (all in empire) than I can with 10x the ammount of time doing lvl 4 missions (and yeah thats why those guys are idiots).
Honestly I could care less what happens with lvl 4 missions I just want something to do while I'm holed up in empire, preferably something that I can use my *free* time from 0.0 to improve my faction standings, getting close to one of the last goals I made a few years back :) I can deal with war decs ect while moving inventory around, but going to jita while trying to do fw I'm sure isnt viable. Lvl 3 missions.. like the bartender finally get to you only to turn around and help 10 others that stepped up to the bar after you. I had fun exploring for abit .. but after enough people caught on I get on later in the day and the sites are either already gone or empty (at least I can't find them like I used to). So my delima, hi-sec fun while sitting in empire a couple days here and there.
For those that say blah blah pvp blah blah everything is crap. Well you can blah blah when your ships, mods and rigs can't be built cause nobody is mining, plexing, running missions and salvaging wrecks, ect. So yeah pvp is great but other aspects are important to eve. Everything has it's place and lvl4 missions are not on the top of the chain for making isk in hi sec.
Anyway that's my view and there are so many flawed and inacurate arguments for it both ways and just as many good arguments both ways. However the dust settles I hope something is left thats fun, and I have no doubt that the actual reasons for any changes are well thought out ones.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 02:07:00 -
[34]
Quote:
If you move all the level 4s to low sec, then they'll move to level 3s. There is nothing you can do that will get many of the mission runners to move to unsafe space.
Look at level 5s. Nobody does them because of the risk involved.
Quote:
They want the ability to log into the game, play a couple hours a day without to much harassment, make enough isk to get new ships and skills, and log out. If you change the game enough to where they can no longer do that, they'll just move on to the next game.
Yep. Original post linked to the very point of how it would hurt 0.0 signficantly if they changed level 4s.
Quote:
So they do level 3s. Cool. What's the problem?
I run level 4s all the time. If level 4s are no longer available... I quit eve. I'm not really in the mood to go to 0.0 and low sec is completely a non-option because of hictors.
Nobody will do level 3s.
Quote:
But would you fly a multi-billion ISK pimped out pwnmobile for ratting like you can for highsec missions?
But if not these level 4 runners... who do these 0.0 people sell their Gist xl shield boosters to? Nobody can practically use them. Thusly 0.0 cant sell these top of the line mods to anyone. Thusly nobody buys them. Prices crash. 0.0 becomes even more worthless for non-moon mining.
Quote:
IMO something needs to be done to nerf level 4s in highsec while making 0.0/lowsec more attractive. double/triple LP in lowsec?
Um that's how it is already. Level 5s give you 60,000lp per mission even. Where the best lvl4 gives 6000-7000 at most.
You cant make 0.0/lowsec more attractive. It's already pretty damn good. People dont go there to do missions; not because lvl4s are more valuable but because they refuse to leave high sec. Meaning by removing lvl 4s will mean only 1 thing.
These people who are quiting take their 15-30 billion in their wallet, buy up core materials and such and quit. Destroying the market in doing so. If 15billion is enough to manipulate... billions and billions sitting dormant right now leaving the game can do serious damage.
Quote:
Maybe make it so that meta 3 and 4 stuff is only dropped in lowsec or nullsec? It wouldn't be too much of a nerf on lvl 4s in highsec while giving a fairly good reason to run them in low/nullsec.
This is what I said in my other thread. But make it so mission rats cant drop them at all. You have to rat or do exploration to get them.
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"There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.10.28 02:32:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
But if not these level 4 runners... who do these 0.0 people sell their Gist xl shield boosters to? Nobody can practically use them. Thusly 0.0 cant sell these top of the line mods to anyone. Thusly nobody buys them. Prices crash. 0.0 becomes even more worthless for non-moon mining.
Affordable faction mods... Hmm... Ok, that's an excellent argument. A winning argument, in fact. I was pretty 'meh' either way, but you've convinced me to bandwagon on the 'nerf level 4s' cause.
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EliteSlave
Minmatar
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.10.28 02:38:00 -
[36]
no lvl 4 mission should be in high sec. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.28 03:09:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:
So they do level 3s. Cool. What's the problem?
I run level 4s all the time. If level 4s are no longer available... I quit eve. I'm not really in the mood to go to 0.0 and low sec is completely a non-option because of hictors.
Nobody will do level 3s.
Are you doing L4s for the sake of running missions (fun, heh)... well, you might as well run L3s instead. The fun factor is the same (zero).
Doing L4s for the sake of funding PVP? That should be definitely nerfed. Heavily. Fact, making someone capable of recouping a BS loss in a few hours, in 100% safety of high-sec, is utterly idiotic.
There are two reasons to run L4s. One of them (fun) would be satisfied regardless of the ISK you make. Second one is horribly imbalanced. Which one is it?
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.10.28 03:15:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
There are two reasons to run L4s. One of them (fun) would be satisfied regardless of the ISK you make. Second one is horribly imbalanced. Which one is it?
Imbalanced,
which is why I'm now making more from ratting in 0.0 and looting faction rats. But on the flip side, I have to play nice with others so I can rat where I rat so it requires teamwork. |
Sylper Illysten
Caldari
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.10.28 03:39:00 -
[39]
Well looks like the ganktards get their wish. This will be then end of the casual player.
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Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.28 03:46:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
The economic report shows that more ships produced than are taken away. It's easy to see that there's an ever growing increase in supply of everything, causing prices to fall further and further making ratting/missioning the only way possible for ISK generation - rather than organized building.
Everyone is suffering...
The solution to that problem does not involve level 4 missions. The problem is not ISK generation - if there was too much ISK in the economy, prices would be going up. The problem is too many people trying to supply stuff that has a limited demand.
One lesson that has been learned many times throughout human history is that the best way to boost a flagging economy is to start a war. So get out there and blow things up. Only by blowing things up are you going to increase demand for the stuff that you're building. Hunt down L4 mission runners, trick them into giving you shooting rights, and blow them up! At the same time, get into the business of manufacturing marauders and T2 fittings for mission runners!
Now to convince CCP that people in starter or NPC corps should not be allowed to undock with T2 ships or fittings...
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Souvera Corvus
Gallente
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.10.28 04:16:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 28/10/2008 04:18:50
Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 28/10/2008 04:17:29
We've been through this again and again and it comes down to some people getting ****ty about the fact that people who've chosen not to PvP don't run the same risks and should therefore be beaten with wet spaghetti and have their L$'s taken off them.
I fail to see quite why this is an issue and its yet to be explained by EvE's fabled economist whether it is an issue or not.
If you move all L4's to low-sec people won't do them and they'll switch to L3's. After a year, the whine will start about moving L3's to low-sec as people are getting far too rich off of chaining them in their Ishtars.
If we'd like a true reflection of risk/reward then plexes should be nerfed into oblivion, moon minerals made finite, ratting spawns made much more rare and asteroid belts made virtually impossible to find.
What fun that'll be...............
Sovereign alliance space is just about as safe as it gets for some players and I think its a little laughable that they're preaching about some of the most inoffensive players in the game from the comfort of their over-upholstered armchair that's been paid for by 24/7 ratting and dyspro moon mining and we all know how hugely dangerous they are. |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.10.28 04:18:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sylper Illysten
Well looks like the ganktards get their wish. This will be then end of the casual player.
Have you tried life in a 0.0 pet corp? Zero political BS. Zero lag. Zero spammy scammers. Zero ninja salvagers. Empire war decs cause nothing but laughter.
Log on for however long you feel like, hit some belts, log off. PvE on your own time and not commit for however long a mission takes.
It doesn't get any more casual than this.
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sfsdf
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Posted - 2008.10.28 04:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Takon Orlani
Troll troll is troll
PS troll.
stop the troll thing, first time its fun, second its meh, third its GTFO of here
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.10.28 04:37:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:
If you move all the level 4s to low sec, then they'll move to level 3s. There is nothing you can do that will get many of the mission runners to move to unsafe space.
Look at level 5s. Nobody does them because of the risk involved.
Quote:
They want the ability to log into the game, play a couple hours a day without to much harassment, make enough isk to get new ships and skills, and log out. If you change the game enough to where they can no longer do that, they'll just move on to the next game.
Yep. Original post linked to the very point of how it would hurt 0.0 signficantly if they changed level 4s.
Quote:
So they do level 3s. Cool. What's the problem?
I run level 4s all the time. If level 4s are no longer available... I quit eve. I'm not really in the mood to go to 0.0 and low sec is completely a non-option because of hictors.
Nobody will do level 3s.
Quote:
But would you fly a multi-billion ISK pimped out pwnmobile for ratting like you can for highsec missions?
But if not these level 4 runners... who do these 0.0 people sell their Gist xl shield boosters to? Nobody can practically use them. Thusly 0.0 cant sell these top of the line mods to anyone. Thusly nobody buys them. Prices crash. 0.0 becomes even more worthless for non-moon mining.
Quote:
IMO something needs to be done to nerf level 4s in highsec while making 0.0/lowsec more attractive. double/triple LP in lowsec?
Um that's how it is already. Level 5s give you 60,000lp per mission even. Where the best lvl4 gives 6000-7000 at most.
You cant make 0.0/lowsec more attractive. It's already pretty damn good. People dont go there to do missions; not because lvl4s are more valuable but because they refuse to leave high sec. Meaning by removing lvl 4s will mean only 1 thing.
These people who are quiting take their 15-30 billion in their wallet, buy up core materials and such and quit. Destroying the market in doing so. If 15billion is enough to manipulate... billions and billions sitting dormant right now leaving the game can do serious damage.
Quote:
Maybe make it so that meta 3 and 4 stuff is only dropped in lowsec or nullsec? It wouldn't be too much of a nerf on lvl 4s in highsec while giving a fairly good reason to run them in low/nullsec.
This is what I said in my other thread. But make it so mission rats cant drop them at all. You have to rat or do exploration to get them.
I would do level 5s if there happend to be a level 5 agent in my pocket, sadly there is not  (or did I just never look  )
if they move level 4s out of highsec and nerf local well then  game over dude. that would probably get more outcry than the nano nerf, and likely a bigger response.
hictors are a non issue, just make sure it is blue. oh that's right lv4s are a single player game.... hics are scary 
yay for stupid mission runners massively overpaying for their shield boosters when t2 gear will do it fine.
and level 4s are easily soloable, level 5s are usually a small gang operation, splitting that reward. as for the loot/bounty/mission isk reward I don't know how it balances.
if meta 3/4 only drops in low/nullsec well lets just say I want to start buying up arby/prototype/scout stuff now
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 05:24:00 -
[45]
Quote:
I would do level 5s if there happend to be a level 5 agent in my pocket, sadly there is not Sad (or did I just never look Shocked)
afaik there's only 1 region per faction who has lvl5.
Quote:
if they move level 4s out of highsec and nerf local well then Laughing game over dude.
they only plan to nerf 0.0 local not low sec. But ya lvl 4s only in low sec means... nobody does lvl 4s. nobody makes isk in high sec and people cant buy anything from 0.0 and low sec. Meaning the value of 0.0 crashes immensely.
To be fair zulupark said...
Quote:
High-sec nerfed: Personally I'd like to see more lvl4 agents move more to low-sec, but that's just my personal opinion. This is a very delicate system and any kind of interference with it needs careful consideration. So far we haven't looked at it in any seriousness.
Technically he didnt say all. So really the plan would be to cause even more concentration mission hubs.
Quote:
that would probably get more outcry than the nano nerf, and likely a bigger response.
you need to realize that most people are in high sec... most people are never going to lowsec again.
Quote:
hictors are a non issue, just make sure it is blue. oh that's right lv4s are a single player game.... hics are scary
I lived in Oto-Tama area for a long time. With the advent of hictors... Im never going back to low sec.
Quote:
yay for stupid mission runners massively overpaying for their shield boosters when t2 gear will do it fine.
you kidding? gist xl boosters are epic over t2. They easily are permarun with far better defense then t2. That's huge difference.
Quote:
and level 4s are easily soloable,
Those 3 fits I show there... are successful fits @ lvl4s. they came back with mission loot.
Quote:
level 5s are usually a small gang operation,
not really. Usually 1 person with an alt. Nighthawk or similar passive tank.who is accompanied by a dps dealer who has 1-2 remote reps.
Though there are a couple lvl 5s where you can use a carrier and smartbomb the entire field no problem. Toooo much risk usually to do that. The dps dealer also cant be a dominix or something because drones cant be used generally.
Now CCP could change this; CCP could design a ship... somewhere inbetween a capital and battleship. Who is stealthy who could also be apart of the Blackops group. Who deals big damage. But cant be scanned down. So the ship in a safespot literally can be considered cloaked.
this ship then can run missions or lay siege to pos modules... perhaps such as the cyno jammer. This ship is a capital ship who has to jump around using regular cynos... or use the covert bridge.
Only then would level 4-5s be done in low sec. It's obvious that such a ship would never be made.
Quote:
splitting that reward. as for the loot/bounty/mission isk reward I don't know how it balances.
When you use alts... you still split the money to yourself.
Quote:
if meta 3/4 only drops in low/nullsec well lets just say I want to start buying up arby/prototype/scout stuff now
I dunno about low sec. Lowsec shouldnt be that good. Perhaps they can get 250mm prototype gauss guns and such. 0.0 indeed.
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"There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.10.28 06:33:00 -
[46]
all i can see is change after change in what appears to be a move to shift the entire paradigm of the game. not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but i would get more comfortable vibes if the changes were coming from someone that had a good track record (that would include the actual presence of a track record!)
I'm not saying "OHNOES everyone will quit", but with each major change you roll the dice on people that will find that complete change of game style acceptable and continue playing.
be it changing someones immediate play style or changing their goals and long term plans every one is a dice roll. roll the dice enough times and you will get a SWG event where suddenly people don't want to play your game anymore, because its fundamentally not the same game.
i'm considering making this my default response to threads discussing zulupark :P
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Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.28 06:38:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Mika Meroko on 28/10/2008 06:38:48
whine whine whine nerf nerf nerf vasaline!
seriously, the nerf lvl 4 talk is getting old....
(it will be nerf lvl 3 next.. then 2.. then 1....waaah!)
level 5 is there... add more level 5 XD...
(to low and 0.0)
but yeah, I am shocked at the OP... I mean, I would be more concerned about the missiles changes (if I do missions) than the speed changes....
edit: also, theres also a thing called time vs reward...<--- this keeps people paying CCP money... while risk vs reward doesnt.... not as long...
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.28 07:05:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Originally by: Cobra Ball
Here is the part i don't quite understand. Unless you are a real sadist who does 10 hours of missions a day, i think a majority of people find it a boring grind that is a necessary evil.
I assume other people also find that missions are boring as all hell but do them because it is a means to an end. Has CCP found that mission runners are causing inflation to the economy? If not, why stop people from making isk to do the things they really want to do in EVE?
I don't think it's the casual gamer that has caused deflation to the economy by completing lvl 4's, but the simplicity in which macro'ers can complete them afk that is causing a root core issue in both 0.0 and hi-sec.
There's more and more isk entering the game, and not enough leaving. The economic report shows that more ships produced than are taken away. It's easy to see that there's an ever growing increase in supply of everything, causing prices to fall further and further making ratting/missioning the only way possible for ISK generation - rather than organized building.
Everyone is suffering...
Naturally the point that creating a macro for ratting in 0.0 is several order of magnitude easier is of no consequence, right?
And the report of people finding macro ratting raven in 0.0 have no significance too. Nerf missions, that is the culprit.
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Planktal
Gallente
Kenshao Industries
The Star League
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Posted - 2008.10.28 07:39:00 -
[49]
you want to balance risk vs reward in high sec with lvl4 missions, simple, remove CONCORD, problem solved. Of course EVE would die, but hey, the gankers would get their jollies for a bit before that happens.
Do any of you who wants to move lvl4 missions to low sec even think that some people don't want to do PvP all the time?
No you don't, you just think about you little pleasures killing defenseless ships. Why don't you go out and club a baby seal, it's the same thing. |
Cece Cline
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Posted - 2008.10.28 08:12:00 -
[50]
Move lvl5's to high sec instead, I'd love to do them.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.28 08:17:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
you kidding? gist xl boosters are epic over t2. They easily are permarun with far better defense then t2. That's huge difference.
Since a t2 xl booster is more than enough tank for any lvl 4 mission, you are basically paying 1 bill to be lazy and not manage cap.
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Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.10.28 08:26:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Souvera Corvus
Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 28/10/2008 04:18:50
Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 28/10/2008 04:17:29
Sovereign alliance space is just about as safe as it gets for some players and I think its a little laughable that they're preaching about some of the most inoffensive players in the game from the comfort of their over-upholstered armchair that's been paid for by 24/7 ratting and dyspro moon mining and we all know how hugely dangerous they are.
You obviously have no idea how much organization and risk comes with conquering and holding good 0.0 space. If they have it so good, go take some space for yourself. I mean it's not dangerous at all right? Choose a spot and put down a POS and set it to claim SOV and tell me how easy you have it.
The people that make this claim are usually those that get invited into a large 0.0 alliance and leech easy ISK off the efforts of those who created and held together the organization that took and continues to hold the space that's making those guys rich.
ALL the ISK I rat in 0.0 goes into ships that I blow up in PVP defense or offense to assist my corp/alliance (and have fun of course).
As a side note - anything to make it harder for ninja cloaking Raven ratters in hostile space to rat in relative security I'd probably be all for.
The view that 0.0 space is safe in general is a fallacy and fails to account for variables not obvious to the possible perspective of an individual.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Taradis
Amarr
The Imperial Assassins
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Posted - 2008.10.28 08:48:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Taradis on 28/10/2008 08:50:49
Originally by: Ralara
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Check out the speed of Battleships on the test server.
L4 missions have already been nerfed. With the speed changes (you can't speed fit a solo mission tank) running missions will take a LOT more time than they do now, lowering even more any perceived advantage over mission running vs 0.0 ratting. Note: there isn't. You make far more isk in less time ratting in 0.0 than with mission running.
Um... who in their right mind has ever tried to speed tank a level 4 mission in a battleship? 
Speed and Battleship on a lvl 4 does not compute just those 2 werds being in the same sentance makes no sense.  and sides that that's just dumb considering you get webbed in some LVL 4's and hence getting webbed means ya lose speed thus if your speed tanked in a BS you go pop. Sides above is spot on who in their right mind would speed tank a BS on TQ, Sisi i can understand but TQ someone smokin the crak
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Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.10.28 08:57:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
you kidding? gist xl boosters are epic over t2. They easily are permarun with far better defense then t2. That's huge difference.
Not sure if you understood what he meant. Yes gist xl boosters are far better than t2. However there is a max difficulty you will generally find in a lvl 4 mission. After a certain point of effectiveness you will be able to complete lvl 4 missions. Anything on top of that is unnecessary, useful, but not needed to complete the missions. Lvl 4s can be easily run with a t2 xl booster, all of them.
The Gist xl booster will make lvl 4 missions easier. You won't have to pay as much attention to spawn triggers and other "dangers" found in the missions. Basically it makes something not dangerous at all, less dangerous even with lower attention payed to it.
The confusion for many is why would a gist xl booster be a goal for an EVE player in itself. After it's attained the player can now do what he did before. Is it that now they have the module itself? Would looking at the gist xl booster in their item hangar give the same satisfaction as using on their ship to accomplish what they already could before without it?
Frankly if lvl 4s were removed and people didn't use gist xl booster in high sec as much (or at all) their price would drop, BUT they would still be used, most likely in PVP and I see nothing wrong with that at all.
I don't have any problem with people running missions only in EVE if that's honestly what they find fun. However I also don't see why they feel they the need to make a certain amount of ISK when they very rarely need to replace anything bought. You can fit a ship capable of running the hardest highest lvl mission in high sec for about 150m or less. Even if the lvl 4 mission rewards were cut in half this amount of ISK could be saved in a matter of weeks or months and now they are capable of accomplishing the hardest thing this type of player will do in their whole EVE career.
I've used lvl 4 missions as a form of PVP funding and probably will again in the future so my point of view isn't formed due to personal gain or convenience. Honestly I'd gain nothing directly by lvl 4s being nerfed, but I think it would force people to make ISK to PVP in a PVP/contested oriented environment (low sec, 0.0, trading, mining, production etc.) and that seems right to me for a game like EVE.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
ThorBank
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Posted - 2008.10.28 09:32:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Gorefacer
The confusion for many is why would a gist xl booster be a goal for an EVE player in itself.
Well thats pretty simple. For some people, me included, its just plain fun to perfect something :)
I only do missions to finance my pvp but i like pimpin my missionrunner, too. Its just fun to see how much better the ship perfoms after you put in more isk. Its not about solving missions but the speed you do em with. Its fun to see you¦re beloved ship take the whole stage and blow everything to little wrecks within no time.
(At least, thats what i like about missions and missionrunner ships.)
So for some people its a long goal term to get more and more of these pimped ships, just for the sake of it. No I wouldnt fly such a ship into lowsec or 0.0. Theres no point in it since as you said, a 150m ship can basicly do the same in a longer time.
But: if the lvls 4 moved to low sec, for many people the reason to get such pimped ships will simply vanish. With no long-term goal, theres no point in playin. PvP is fun, but without the perfectonistic approach you can take on missionrunners, eve would loose a lot of its attractivness for many people.
(note: this is not supposed to be a whine, i only wanted to explain what is interesting for one part of the player base. if missions get nerfed and its no use to pimp such ships anymore, there will be another way to gain money....yepp even if its lvl 3. in a command ship. ;) ) |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 09:34:00 -
[56]
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all i can see is change after change in what appears to be a move to shift the entire paradigm of the game. not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but i would get more comfortable vibes if the changes were coming from someone that had a good track record (that would include the actual presence of a track record!)
This is true. Essentially by moving level 4s to low sec. It would mean that many people quit the game. While others stick around... but now cant generate any real isk. Meaning they never buy officer mods. Officer mods drop in price like mad. Eventually equalizing where 0.0 is indeed the best isk/hour potential... you have a grand stalemate of loss.
Essentially reaching the point where 0.0 isnt tenable and high sec level 3s become the next big isk flood. Which after the big drop in isk influx... everything deflates like mad. Seriously along the lines of 60-80% deflation.
Gist c-type xl shield booster is 1.6billion now. It will be much closer to less than 500mil.
As 1.6billion is to level 4s as about 500mil is to level 3s.
Then you have the problem of people who have already amassed billions for themselves. Basically Trophy collections will become epic.
On the otherhand with such huge deflation. 100bil-30bil for supercaps is far less tenable. Meaning that only those with insane amounts of isk already can manage such things. Titans themselves will be nuts. Having such a lower capable foe means that titans arent destroyed.
Eventually... Bob and Goons will be the ones who control vast empires. who cant be challenged because you need big isk to fight big isk.
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but yeah, I am shocked at the OP... I mean, I would be more concerned about the missiles changes (if I do missions) than the speed changes....
Op here :)
For the most part I fly dominix and soon Ishtar. My CNR is for the most part unchanged in the missile changes. Torp golems infact appear to have more dps and thusly run missions even faster. Assuming t2 ammo.
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No you don't, you just think about you little pleasures killing defenseless ships. Why don't you go out and club a baby seal, it's the same thing.
Carebears are like baby seals? Alright it's true.
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Move lvl5's to high sec instead, I'd love to do them.
Never going to happen.
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Since a t2 xl booster is more than enough tank for any lvl 4 mission, you are basically paying 1 bill to be lazy and not manage cap.
You are quite correct. Personally I just use CN xl booster on my cnr.
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You obviously have no idea how much organization and risk comes with conquering and holding good 0.0 space. If they have it so good, go take some space for yourself. I mean it's not dangerous at all right? Choose a spot and put down a POS and set it to claim SOV and tell me how easy you have it.
Technically speaking a great deal of 0.0 is pretty much unclaimed. Rarely have people in it... and if it wasnt for absolutely nuts nano gangs... 0.0 would be significantly safer. Even in the current setup... you can pretty much find yourself a hole in 0.0 plop up a pos and start doing your thing.
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The people that make this claim are usually those that get invited into a large 0.0 alliance and leech easy ISK off the efforts of those who created and held together the organization that took and continues to hold the space that's making those guys rich.
Actually either it's that alliance's fault for being stupid or you are. Big alliances get paid by other groups billions per month to grab a hold of some safe unused space in their space. The fee covers any claim of "leeching" |
Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Safespot Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.28 09:40:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cobra Ball
I can't speak for all mission runners but for people like me, this really puts a dent into what i really want to do - PVP
You see, as much as i dislike running level 4, I find its a pretty good way (not the best, but not the worst either) to make enough money to replace my PVP losses. I tried the other professions and i just don't enjoy them. After a day at work, its easier for me to run some mission than sit at a computer trading in jita, or mining for hours on end.
So for the average person like me, the less isk that i make, the less i can PVP. And trust me, i am not a very good PVPer, so i do lose a lot of ships. 
I think in the long run, this can be a problem for them game. After all, this game ultimately revolves around PVP. The less people want to do that, the less likely they are to log in. If that happens, then industrialist won't have anyone to sell their ships to, and miners will have no one to sell their minerals to.
And no, you can't have my stuff. I am not going to freak out like some people seem to from every tidbit a dev post on EVE-O. Just my two cents.
+1
Peace and love,
Josh
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 09:52:00 -
[58]
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ALL the ISK I rat in 0.0 goes into ships that I blow up in PVP defense or offense to assist my corp/alliance (and have fun of course).
In my experience good alliances cover 100% of subcapital combat pvp and 33% of capital pvp. So any isk you earn in 0.0 literally stays with you. The alliance itself earns isk from the moons and such it holds. The corps earn isk through bounties/tax or through purchasing and refining the drone alloys. 0.0 is profitable for everyone unless you're in a terrible situation.
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As a side note - anything to make it harder for ninja cloaking Raven ratters in hostile space to rat in relative security I'd probably be all for.
Because you arent the cloaking raven and you want the ability to destroy them. Get a clue.
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The view that 0.0 space is safe in general is a fallacy and fails to account for variables not obvious to the possible perspective of an individual.
If I were to crank open eve right now and check how many active pilots in system or docked and count the systems in 0.0 with NOBODY. How many do you think there are?
How about low sec? Betcha it'll be much harder. Infact when I was in low sec you pretty much 3-5 people in all systems. Though that was caldari space. Amarr space I suspect to be more dead.
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Not sure if you understood what he meant. Yes gist xl boosters are far better than t2. However there is a max difficulty you will generally find in a lvl 4 mission. After a certain point of effectiveness you will be able to complete lvl 4 missions.
As I said... those pics I posted were lvl 4 mission runners... who were successful. My point is that changing level 4s would eliminate these people if risk is increased. OR if reward is drastically dropped the the succesful lvl 4 runners cant fit their ships and also have to do the "shoop da whoop" fit. Nobody buys anything coming from 0.0 Suddenly the value of 0.0 decreases signficantly and then as you said... you barely break even... you will afterwards be very very poor.
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The Gist xl booster will make lvl 4 missions easier. You won't have to pay as much attention to spawn triggers and other "dangers" found in the missions. Basically it makes something not dangerous at all, less dangerous even with lower attention payed to it.
The real point though is that if you change lvl 4s... nobody buys those gist xl boosters... and then you are royally screwed in 0.0
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The confusion for many is why would a gist xl booster be a goal for an EVE player in itself. After it's attained the player can now do what he did before. Is it that now they have the module itself?
The confusion for many is why would a tech2 xl booster be a goal for an EVE player in itself. After it's attained the player can now do what he did before. Is it that now they have the module itself?
Why doesnt he just use a named xl booster... it works... hell that raven doesnt even have a tank at all. Perhaps all lvl 4 mission runners have to fit their ships like that.
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Frankly if lvl 4s were removed and people didn't use gist xl booster in high sec as much (or at all) their price would drop, BUT they would still be used, most likely in PVP and I see nothing wrong with that at all.
You're right people would use them... they'd drop to 500mil or less and people would buy them. They certainly wouldnt be used pvp... 500mil is absolutely nuts. They would be used in lvl3s Except it'll take them 2-3 months to scratch up the isk to get 500mil.
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I don't have any problem with people running missions only in EVE if that's honestly what they find fun.
Running missions gets you isk. You then use that isk to do what you find fun. Personally I think I want to eventually train for thanatos, buy a thanatos, fit it reasonably well. Get out to 0.0 for fun. But I cant fly a thanatos atm. It takes time. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 10:01:00 -
[59]
Quote:
However I also don't see why they feel they the need to make a certain amount of ISK when they very rarely need to replace anything bought.
Says you? With some exceptions obviously. Many mission runners have never broke 1 billion. They play every day... hours everyday. Yet they dont ever seem to break 1 billion. I wonder why that is?
Currently I'm at 1.3 billion. I must have sold the apocs I've built and rigs. I have a feeling my ammo hasnt been touched.
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You can fit a ship capable of running the hardest highest lvl mission in high sec for about 150m or less. Even if the lvl 4 mission rewards were cut in half this amount of ISK could be saved in a matter of weeks or months and now they are capable of accomplishing the hardest thing this type of player will do in their whole EVE career.
Yep and we also cut any isk going to 0.0 people. Their products can sit on the market. Still recovering the loss of purchasing my ship. While the 0.0 moons are still cranking out exactly the same amount... but nobody is buying. So it's just piling up.
Your wallet from all those losses for holding space starts to smart... and manufacturers stop building because their product is on the market at no markup and with no isk they cant buy fuel and minerals. So the miners cant earn as much and the market starts flooding.
What people are supposed to just buy insurance on their ships and fly them into a belt to die? to earn isk?
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I've used lvl 4 missions as a form of PVP funding and probably will again in the future so my point of view isn't formed due to personal gain or convenience. Honestly I'd gain nothing directly by lvl 4s being nerfed
Lots to lose though eh?
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but I think it would force people to make ISK to PVP in a PVP/contested oriented environmen
Yet you just said that you were making no isk by doing that. And you want even more competition over the same resources in 0.0 or low sec? Wow interesting.
Great way to destroy the game. |
Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Safespot Industries
|
Posted - 2008.10.28 10:34:00 -
[60]
How popular are Level 5 missions?
Note: there's a clue in the answer to the above question. |
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