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Level 4 missions; bad zulupark

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Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.10.28 10:52:00 - [61] Just to further prove a point. Active pilots in system or docked. Notice how this small cross section of 0.0 literally has nobody in it. 100 system not being touched. How many unclaimed untouched systems there are. Every one of those grey dots is a system with no pos claiming sov. Seriously there's so much fighting over resources in 0.0 to claim sovereignty that you dont even use. Infact if you look at some recent fighting. An alliance went and took nearly an entire region. They took losses of 50-100billion in battleships and caps alone. All to get control over the dys and prem moons in there. Now they have to crank those moons out for a period of time... just to break even. Hoping they dont lose the space they just took. That's no fun. In that time... they likely will have conflict again and might be losing their space.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.10.28 11:06:00 - [62] Originally by: Joshua Calvert How popular are Level 5 missions? Note: there's a clue in the answer to the above question. if they were... nerfing lvl 4s wouldnt be an issue.
Bimjo Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.28 15:54:00 - [63] Edited by: Bimjo on 28/10/2008 15:56:37 Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Jason Edwards you kidding? gist xl boosters are epic over t2. They easily are permarun with far better defense then t2. That's huge difference. Since a t2 xl booster is more than enough tank for any lvl 4 mission, you are basically paying 1 bill to be lazy and not manage cap. opinions are like a**holes,everyone has one (don't get offended, I am no different) So how about some facts instead of opinions ? Officer fitting(allowing perma tank) means if you get disconnected in Angel Ext., in the bonus room, when 40 ships are on you all at once,you can try to reconnect in the knowledge your ship is safe I don't know about you,but all I hear from PvPers,Fleet ops pilots and mission runners is "CCP refused my petition for ship loss due to lag/disconnection, because their records didn't support it,hence calling me a liar"
Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.28 17:24:00 - [64] Problem with lvl4 missions is that they have to be able to be completed in a tech1 fit battleship. (or at least they should be - some recent missions don't look like that's possible). Battleships may not enter several lvl3 missions, (most of which are newer, seems like that's the way it's headed). Otherwise, everything thats tech1 or named that's battleship sized is pretty redundant, except as a source of minerals or for building tech2 or for LP store offers. Seriously, is a plain Tech1 fit battleship useful in 0.0 at all? Can it handle the rat spawns? Is it any use in pvp except in a dire emergency, where it's "grab whatever you have!" ? The trouble is that with a Tech2 fit, or faction/deadspace fit, a ship can complete missions a whole lot faster, due to putting out a lot more damage, and being able to tank more spawns, so aggro management isn't as time consuming as it is for Tech1. Some people, who know what they are doing, what missions to do, etc. can get to earning 30+ million isk per hour from lvl4 missions (occasionally by using an alt as support - still makes a lot more per hour per character). For a newer player in a Tech1/named fit, it's probably not much more than 4-5 million isk per hour from lvl4, because they're slower, might need to warp out, and probably have wrecks expire on them because they take so long to do them. Making game balancing changes based on the performances of extremes, isn't a good thing. Also, what's so bad about people who are what you might call "weekend pvpers"? i.e. people who do a few missions during the week, to fund some cheap ships to have some fun in at the weekend? They buy things (making industrialists happy) and get shot (making combat players happy), and can afford then to do this several times. Risk/reward works best when the person controlling the character has as little emotional involvement as possible. "Ohnoes, my ship!" is an emotional involvement. The people who the risk/reward mechanism works best for are isk-farmers. All those lowsec-couriers that you used to see? isk-farmers, the majority of them. Why? Because the risk/reward worked for them. Player pirates aren't interested in shooting them. So be careful with the risk/reward mechanisms.
Barrad Dex	Posted - 2008.10.28 17:33:00 - [65] Don't know how typical I am or not. But I do know I am a valued customer for CCP. I've played Eve for a little over a year with my husband. Between us we have 9 accounts and that's some alright money. Certainly not the most certainly not the least. We like to mine, scout, invent, manufacture, run missions, sell things etc. Until recently we were purely Empire. And we enjoyed the game, except the mission running needed a lot more variety pep, and decent writing. I can guarantee you that we did not make billions of isk in mission running level 4's. Or anything for that matter. We were in lovely corporations, little drama, great people, informative, friendly, sociable. We did ops together, we trained, we had goals, we chatted. Now we're in a 0.0 alliance. We are dipping our feet into it, a few POS's a little pvp training. And its fun. But so is High Sec. I want high sec because it makes sense economically and politically and role-play wise. (Healthy Societies do not exist very long in perpetual warfare without a stable area for social cohesion) and because its a good place to do low risk mining and enjoyable missionrunning and has resources and places to sell stuff. And I'm glad there is low sec and 0.0 for the different game that is there. Seems to me if you got rid of Empire you get rid of choke points, strategic lanes, larger markets for minerals, ships etc, you cut down on communications and exchanges. Getting rid of safety in high sec gets rid of a lot of reason to fight pvp in 0.0 when you look at the big picture (as opposed to your personal habits). Some people seem to forget that when there is a war on not everybody in the war can, should or wants to be on the front lines. War machines only happen when you have a much larger population behind it that isn't fighting. People mining, building, selling and investing. If high sec went away, so would I and 9 accounts. It doesn't have to be us vs them It doesn't have to be 0.0 vs Empire It doesn't have to be pvp vs carebears Half the game at any given time are in Empire for various reasons and various fun. The game is realistic in having that space and I believe that CCP is intelligent in giving people as many options as possible, unless of course they only want pure pvp (which, wouldn't be EVE then). I would not trade one for the other personally. I hope they keep improving high sec and mission running there and I hope they keep things interesting for 0.0 too. If they do both, they'll keep me.
Cyb3r Thr3at Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.28 18:27:00 - [66] Yea.. if there was no High sec id throw the towel in too! (& my 2 accounts)
K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2008.10.28 18:56:00 - [67] High-sec mission-runners, traders, carebears, whatever you want to name them pay for a whole bunch of CCP's salaries. Whine all you want PvPers, this is the fact of RL that will insure CCP moves in a cautious and conservative manner. EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.28 19:43:00 - [68] Originally by: K'uata Sayus High-sec mission-runners, traders, carebears, whatever you want to name them pay for a whole bunch of CCP's salaries. Whine all you want PvPers, this is the fact of RL that will insure CCP moves in a cautious and conservative manner. But now missions have caught the attention on The NerfbatÖ Whine all you want, missionbears, now you will have to do a little adapting for once.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.28 19:45:00 - [69] Originally by: Jason Edwards Just to further prove a point. Active pilots in system or docked. Notice how this small cross section of 0.0 literally has nobody in it. 100 system not being touched. How many unclaimed untouched systems there are. Every one of those grey dots is a system with no pos claiming sov. Seriously there's so much fighting over resources in 0.0 to claim sovereignty that you dont even use. Infact if you look at some recent fighting. An alliance went and took nearly an entire region. They took losses of 50-100billion in battleships and caps alone. All to get control over the dys and prem moons in there. Now they have to crank those moons out for a period of time... just to break even. Hoping they dont lose the space they just took. That's no fun. In that time... they likely will have conflict again and might be losing their space. There's a pretty simple reason for this: Most of those unclaimed systems are worthless trash that yield considerably less income than running missions in hi-sec.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.28 19:49:00 - [70] Originally by: Barrad Dex Edited by: Barrad Dex on 28/10/2008 17:37:19 It seems after reading the thread that people want to "nerf" lvl 4 missions to encourage people out of high sec and into 0.0 for whatever reasons, be it revenge (they feel others are safe and they are not [risk vs reward]), they envy or resent that style of play even though they could adopt it at any time but don't, or they want to abolish high security space and go with a complete pvp game style that has never been in place (but they feel it should). Don't know how typical I am or not. But I do know I am a valued customer for CCP. I've played Eve for a little over a year with my husband. Between us we have 9 accounts and that's some alright money. Certainly not the most certainly not the least. We like to mine, scout, invent, manufacture, run missions, sell things etc. Until recently we were purely Empire. And we enjoyed the game, except the mission running needed a lot more variety pep, and decent writing. I can guarantee you that we did not make billions of isk in mission running level 4's. Or anything for that matter. We were in lovely corporations, little drama, great people, informative, friendly, sociable. We did ops together, we trained, we had goals, we chatted. Now we're in a 0.0 alliance. We are dipping our feet into it, a few POS's a little pvp training. And its fun. But so is High Sec. I want high sec because it makes sense economically and politically and role-play wise. (Healthy Societies do not exist very long in perpetual warfare without a stable area for social cohesion) and because its a good place to do low risk mining and enjoyable missionrunning and has resources and places to sell stuff. And I'm glad there is low sec and 0.0 for the different game that is there. Seems to me if you got rid of Empire you get rid of choke points, strategic lanes, larger markets for minerals, ships etc, you cut down on communications and exchanges. Getting rid of safety in high sec gets rid of a lot of reason to fight pvp in 0.0 when you look at the big picture (as opposed to your personal habits). Some people seem to forget that when there is a war on not everybody in the war can, should or wants to be on the front lines. War machines only happen when you have a much larger population behind it that isn't fighting. People mining, building, selling and investing. If high sec went away, so would I and 9 accounts. It doesn't have to be us vs them It doesn't have to be 0.0 vs Empire It doesn't have to be pvp vs carebears Half the game at any given time are in Empire for various reasons and various fun. The game is realistic in having that space and I believe that CCP is intelligent in giving people as many options as possible, unless of course they only want pure pvp (which, wouldn't be EVE then). I would not trade one for the other personally. I hope they keep improving high sec and mission running there and I hope they keep things interesting for 0.0 too. If they do both, they'll keep me. No-one's saying that hi-sec shouldn't exist. They're saying that hi-sec shouldn't offer easy, risk-free rewards that exceed the rewards available - at considerable effort and expense - of vast swathes of 0.0

Grainsalt Ghosts In The Shell	Posted - 2008.10.28 19:51:00 - [71] Well I trashed my account a few days ago after trashing my other 2 .. I just can;t be bothered anymore.. Level 4's have been gradually nerfed anyway over the past year or so with loot table changes etc. TBH I am not really upset with the changes to Missiles, Battleship speed, 60 day codes and Possible further Level 4 ner***e .. I just can;t be bothered anymore, I don't have the time to spend in 0.0 and running level 4's anymore just does not full me with joy. I will probably come back to eve in a 6 months or so and check it out .. But TBH 4 1/2 years of EVE just getting more dull and more boring and more as if the races are exactly the same as each other bores me .. Yes you can have my stuff ... ---
Col Carter	Posted - 2008.10.28 19:56:00 - [72] Originally by: Barrad Dex Edited by: Barrad Dex on 28/10/2008 17:37:19 It doesn't have to be us vs them It doesn't have to be 0.0 vs Empire It doesn't have to be pvp vs carebears Still, EVE is just that. Us vs them. Killbears vs carebears. 0.0 vs empire, one could only hope that Faction Warfare will be done right some day so folks can kick that emperor out of amarr for real.
Poast Warrior Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.28 20:08:00 - [73] Originally by: Grainsalt Yes you can have my stuff ... Sweet, thanks!
Lexa Hellfury Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2008.10.28 20:20:00 - [74] Edited by: Lexa Hellfury on 28/10/2008 20:22:32 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jason Edwards Just to further prove a point. Active pilots in system or docked. Notice how this small cross section of 0.0 literally has nobody in it. 100 system not being touched. How many unclaimed untouched systems there are. Every one of those grey dots is a system with no pos claiming sov. Seriously there's so much fighting over resources in 0.0 to claim sovereignty that you dont even use. Infact if you look at some recent fighting. An alliance went and took nearly an entire region. They took losses of 50-100billion in battleships and caps alone. All to get control over the dys and prem moons in there. Now they have to crank those moons out for a period of time... just to break even. Hoping they dont lose the space they just took. That's no fun. In that time... they likely will have conflict again and might be losing their space. There's a pretty simple reason for this: Most of those unclaimed systems are worthless trash that yield considerably less income than running missions in hi-sec. Yes, but put up a POS in one of those systems and see how fast the wrath of every alliance within 3 regions comes down on you. So basically CCP have alienated their hardcore playerbase (the 3-4 account group) with first the GTC nerf and then the ghost training nerf, and now they're going after the casual gamer? Welp...at least they're keeping it balanced I suppose
Omnoms Amarr IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.10.28 20:37:00 - [75] hmm, I'm growing more and more certain that I am weird for actually enjoying running lvl4s, the mindless grind is a pleasurable way to while away an evening. I am very much looking forwards to using my navy apoc which I anticipate is about 2 weeks off, and I am looking forwards very much to my paladin. To enable me to grind faster and achive some best in game items. The only real sadness is that battleships seem to be utterly outclassed at pvp compared to smaller ships and e-wat... but i suppose you cant have everything. I really do enjoy running missions.
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.28 20:55:00 - [76] Edited by: Hyveres on 28/10/2008 20:56:12 Omnoms : Battleships function as "Ships of the Line" for fleet and larger gang engagements. While not on top 1v1wise they are the mainstay of most fleets. Though dreads might be taking over that role :) if not now then sometime in the future as more people can fly them.
Omnoms Amarr IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.10.28 20:56:00 - [77] my battleships just seem to get continually jammed, scrammed and webbed. Falcon > Abaddon.
Core Researcher	Posted - 2008.10.28 20:58:00 - [78] Originally by: Gorefacer Originally by: Souvera Corvus Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 28/10/2008 04:18:50 Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 28/10/2008 04:17:29 Sovereign alliance space is just about as safe as it gets for some players and I think its a little laughable that they're preaching about some of the most inoffensive players in the game from the comfort of their over-upholstered armchair that's been paid for by 24/7 ratting and dyspro moon mining and we all know how hugely dangerous they are. You obviously have no idea how much organization and risk comes with conquering and holding good 0.0 space. If they have it so good, go take some space for yourself. I mean it's not dangerous at all right? Choose a spot and put down a POS and set it to claim SOV and tell me how easy you have it. The people that make this claim are usually those that get invited into a large 0.0 alliance and leech easy ISK off the efforts of those who created and held together the organization that took and continues to hold the space that's making those guys rich. ALL the ISK I rat in 0.0 goes into ships that I blow up in PVP defense or offense to assist my corp/alliance (and have fun of course). As a side note - anything to make it harder for ninja cloaking Raven ratters in hostile space to rat in relative security I'd probably be all for. The view that 0.0 space is safe in general is a fallacy and fails to account for variables not obvious to the possible perspective of an individual. He is right, you are wrong. 0.0 space held by large alliances is SAFE AS IT COMES. I dont give a flying **** how hard it was to take it Ive lived out there enough times to know. This argument re:L4s is also same old same old: move 4s to low sec people will IGNORE THEM, then if they dont manage to get the same kind of game running 3s they will leave. Dont fool youself into thinking a few might say "oo ill give low-sec a try," because they just wont.
Tykkis	Posted - 2008.10.28 23:12:00 - [79] risk vs reward does not work in eve lowsec. it's all risk for solo player going mission in lowsec because most players wanna be criminals. Nerfing hisec lvl4 missions would make ppl change to mining, production, science and trade whichever makes more than lvl4. None of that is considered spaceship combat. There are people in eve that never want to fight another player and instead produce and build EVE by missioning or other means. The pvp players just destroy and consume. No production means no pvp ships... get it? Making lowsec much more profitable than hisec missioning will only boost the corporations and alliances holding the lowsec space. There are alliances that try to keep lowsec safe and it's quite profitable allready. 0.0 space is actually very safe for the alliance miners and ratters and they make good isk from it. Thats because the alliance/corp makes it safe. So in conclusion, go make lowsec space safe for yourself to mission/rat/mine at :)
Blastil	Posted - 2008.10.28 23:59:00 - [80] Everyone seems to be latching on to the theory that L4 missions will be nerfed by making them go into lowsec. This is false. They may very well just be nerfed in terms of ISK/hour. As it stands, L4's are the reason why miners don't even bother to mine any more, they reprocess l4 mission loot. Hell, that's how I made my first million. Aditionally, Why is nerfing L4's a bad thing? So what, players won't be able to afford their pimped out rigged BS. BAWWWWWWW! BS were not supposed to be as common in the game as they are anyway! They were introduced back in the day where having one was about as rare as having a ****ing Mom or Titan. Casual players suffer the same way casual players in EVERY MMO suffer, in that end game content is typically limited to them. This is nothing new. Most WoW players can't stomach raiding for high-level gear, and they don't do things like Arena unless its just casual. EVE should be no different. Ships and wealth that are locked to them should remain locked, since they don't participate in the methods that contribute to getting there. For the same reason why Cap ships are restricted in highsec, is why l4 missions should be nerfed. The method by which they're nerfed doesn't matter, although I would like to see them sent to 0.4, making piracy more profitable to boot. Quit whining about not posessing content in the game, or not being able to acess certain parts of the game without leaving High Sec. That's how the game was MADE. tl;dr: We don't serve your kind here!

Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.29 00:19:00 - [81] Originally by: Blastil I would like to see them sent to 0.4, making piracy more profitable to boot. Why would piracy be more profitable? Yes. Yes, I am.
Souvera Corvus Gallente SPORADIC MOVEMENT FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.10.29 00:38:00 - [82] All the amateur evoloutionaries who misquote Darwin and demand that people 'adapt or die' miss the irony present in their statement. Its them, who in continually asking for the nerfbat to be swung, who are in essence demanding that CCP change others gameplay to suit their own playstyles. Their failure and/or unwillingness to adapt is their hallmark. High-sec should be safer, its high-sec ffs. By definition it should be a place where people can learn how to play the damn game and play it in their own way. A place where immersioneers can get their kicks and where players who don't want to play pos-ping pong, blob-wars, lag battles or PvP chest-beaters can dip in and out when they want. L4's are nowhere near as profitable as 0.0 mining, ratting and exploration, if they were people would be battling over low-sec mission hubs not dyspro moons. You can make more money in 20 minutes ratting than the best high-sec L4 which takes twice as long to comeplete. Imagine ratting in a system deep in your alliance territory, now that's virtually risk-free. There's no question of game balance to address here it much more a question of people looking to boost low-sec so there are more PvE fits to take advantage of. Personally I mission when there's no-one else in corp chat and I like to go looking for people to shoot when there are and I've never felt that high-sec/low-sec L4's were a pernicious and destabalising influence on the purity of the great game that is EvE. I just wish CCP and others would leave well alone for 5 minutes so I can play the damn game I orginally signed up for.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.29 00:49:00 - [83] Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 29/10/2008 00:51:30 Quote: There's a pretty simple reason for this: Most of those unclaimed systems are worthless trash that yield considerably less income than running missions in hi-sec. I once asked an alliance to let my corp (aka one-man five-alt corp) join up to throw up POS onto mud moons. In exchange, I'd offer them a cut of the profits I made off this and, provided things didn't interfere with the alliance operations too heavily, would pay (read offer incentives) to other corps within the alliance to defend my towers if they were threatened. Apparently "There's no way you could meet the demands of the alliance let alone the fees required 'to be a part of it' as an individual." As this individual, my cut would've been handing over around 400mil a month to the alliance, a billion if things went well. Welcome to why I have a huge beef with alliances in general. I hear people harp on about how "0.0 is so empty" and "CCP needs to force carebears into low and 0.0 space, too many people are hugging empire's umbilicle cord". Personally those alliances have to look at their own attitudes first. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Patri Andari Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.29 01:19:00 - [84] I will not "Emphasis" NOT send my max skilled NH alt into low sec to run lvl 4 missions. OKAY Piwats and Devs? I would rather run level 3 missions as he has max missile and social skills and a pimped fit. If lvl 4 mission are made exclusive to low sec, I will find the best lvl 3 agents in empire to run for while my miner alt mines more to make up the difference. If you move level 3 missions to low sec I will run level 2 mission in an assault missile Cerb or just quit the game! Stop trying to make me play the game the way you want or risk playing alone. reality bites Patri A fool usually thinks he is a genius
Kransthow The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.29 06:03:00 - [85] Originally by: Patri Andari I will not "Emphasis" NOT send my max skilled NH alt into low sec to run lvl 4 missions. Thats fine, we just want the risk we take to be justified with equivalent reward. I could care less if you bring you nighthawk into lowsec or not, it's just your safety should come with a premium.
Whineroy	Posted - 2008.10.29 06:41:00 - [86] Originally by: Kransthow Thats fine, we just want the risk we take to be justified with equivalent reward. I could care less if you bring you nighthawk into lowsec or not, it's just your safety should come with a premium. Now that you speak about risk and reward, where is the risk for gankbears (in PvP- setup ships) killing PvE- fitted missioning ships at lowsec ? Especially when bounty system is a bad joke and there is no reason for people to actively go hunting for gankbears. "Learn to fight, this is PvP game"... Indeed, that definitely applies to all the ganker nerds who refuse to go after targets that could fight back and instead keep whining how CCP should do this and that to force more people into PvP situations where they are at major disadvantage to start with. Risk and reward indeed... For both gankbears and missionbears alike, and not "risk for missionbear, reward for gankbear".
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.29 11:25:00 - [87] Originally by: Barrad Dex It doesn't have to be us vs them It doesn't have to be 0.0 vs Empire It doesn't have to be pvp vs carebears Its carebears that have decided that it has to be this way. They want to profit from pvp'ers and at the same time stay safely protected in a bubble far away from pvp'ers. And because of this, EVE pvp is sadly approaching the battlegrounds style of wow where it doesnt really matter anymore.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.29 11:42:00 - [88] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 29/10/2008 00:51:30 Quote: There's a pretty simple reason for this: Most of those unclaimed systems are worthless trash that yield considerably less income than running missions in hi-sec. I once asked an alliance to let my corp (aka one-man five-alt corp) join up to throw up POS onto mud moons. In exchange, I'd offer them a cut of the profits I made off this and, provided things didn't interfere with the alliance operations too heavily, would pay (read offer incentives) to other corps within the alliance to defend my towers if they were threatened. Apparently "There's no way you could meet the demands of the alliance let alone the fees required 'to be a part of it' as an individual." As this individual, my cut would've been handing over around 400mil a month to the alliance, a billion if things went well. Welcome to why I have a huge beef with alliances in general. I hear people harp on about how "0.0 is so empty" and "CCP needs to force carebears into low and 0.0 space, too many people are hugging empire's umbilicle cord". Personally those alliances have to look at their own attitudes first. Perhaps you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You're asking this alliance to protect you in return for compensation, and rather than pay per incident, you wisely preferred an "insurance" style system. Now you say they wanted 400M/month - about 12.5M/day - for your whole operation, and you said that this made the proposal uneconomic for you. 12.5M/day was more than the space was worth to you. What clearer evidence can you possibly require that much of 0.0 is almost worthless?
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.29 11:44:00 - [89] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Barrad Dex It doesn't have to be us vs them It doesn't have to be 0.0 vs Empire It doesn't have to be pvp vs carebears Its carebears that have decided that it has to be this way. So it is them that are at fault, even though it is you who define it in them and us? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.29 12:35:00 - [90] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Barrad Dex It doesn't have to be us vs them It doesn't have to be 0.0 vs Empire It doesn't have to be pvp vs carebears Its carebears that have decided that it has to be this way. So it is them that are at fault, even though it is you who define it in them and us? Um, go back a couple of months, and I think you'll see what he's talking about. Search for "pirate revenge thread"...



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