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Digital Messiah
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
148
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Posted - 2012.04.03 09:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Will they make marauders obsolete? What new bonuses should marauders take in place of their current salvage friendly ones?
Current salvage friendly bonus! "100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams"
Should they gain drone salvage chance? should they keep them as is. Will they still be desirable simply for faster looting?
What do you guys think? "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Crellion
Parental Control
8
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Posted - 2012.04.03 10:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:Will they make marauders obsolete? What new bonuses should marauders take in place of their current salvage friendly ones?
Current salvage friendly bonus! "100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams"
Should they gain drone salvage chance? should they keep them as is. Will they still be desirable simply for faster looting?
What do you guys think?
Well personally when using Marauders I find I usually squeeze an RR module on them so salavger drones might be a slight buff for Marauders sometimes ...
Setting that aside though as a personal flavor item, let me move on to the OP's question. Other threads have come and gone about a boost to Marauders to put them ahead of piwat BSs for pve (at least missioning). It was always difficult to find a balanced solution.
SHORT ANSWER The direct answer to OPs question would be add to the description "100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams and effectiveness of salvaging drones".
LONG (better?) ANSWER Might be a chance to finally introduce the point defence weapon many people have discussed for the past .... oh... 7 years... options: (a) a weapon system delivering S class weapons with say 70 dps per high slot. Marauders could fit 2 and only Marauders at introduction. Or make it so high in fitting only capitals could fit them (details TBC) and grant Marauders a bonus to fitting 2 of them. (b) give Marauders an addtiional 2 turret slots that only fit S turrets and grant them a 300% bonus to the effectiveness of S turrets equiped in those two slots. Tweak with the percentage so they effectively get, say with 2x150II rails, 80-120 dps from these two S turrets.
The point of this would be a ship that can shoot main guns and secondary guns taking out main npc targets and support npc targets at the same time without using their drones. They could benefit form this either by using salvager drones while killing support with point defence guns or by using usual combat drones and gaining an overall 100 dps advantage (if you look at the dps of a Kronos and Vindicator overall the extra 100 is not a gamebreaking advantage)
How to prevent this from making them better at pvp? Well in theory they can't pvp cause of sensor strength as they diaf when they meet a dps ship and a griffin with multispecs or something ... this would still be equally valid... somewhat.
tl;dr + Marauders real Kings of PvE in the BS class finally. Marauders in Incursions (long overdue tbh) - Point defence weapon systems is Pandora's box for some and something that needs to be done very very carefully for all. |

Tobiaz
Spacerats
116
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Posted - 2012.04.03 10:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Newsflash: Marauders already ARE obsolete. http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |

Roh Voleto
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
109
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Posted - 2012.04.03 12:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
How salvage drones will affect Marauders? Not at all. We live in the age of the Noctis. There is simply no situation where staying and salvaging is more profitable than simply moving on and killing more rats/running more missions. |

stoicfaux
910
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Posted - 2012.04.03 13:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Depends. Can a flight of salvage drones loot and salvage faster than a Marauder's tractors and salvagers? Can Marauders like the Vargur, which doesn't deploy drones that often, also take advantage of salvage drones? (A Vargur could use three tractors and let the salvage drones work on nearby wrecks thus mitigating the drone flight time while making it easier to grab all the loot on the field.)
Given the how low salvage prices have fallen and how the mineral value of the loot is normally significantly greater than the salvage, if salvage drones can't loot, then they won't be adding a lot of value. Plus, adding salvage drones will probably increase the salvage supply thus driving down prices even further.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Crellion
Parental Control
8
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Posted - 2012.04.03 14:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Roh Voleto wrote:How salvage drones will affect Marauders? Not at all. We live in the age of the Noctis. There is simply no situation where staying and salvaging is more profitable than simply moving on and killing more rats/running more missions.
Unless if you are in a Marauder and can get 80% of the BS cans without delaying the mission completon time ...
There is a reason why when you mission in a Marauder in a hub people do not come after your cans...
You reminded me now of a time when level 4 missions would spawn pirate invasions or massive attack (I think it was one of the two... or something similar) 50-80 Kms above system gates... People killed your rats, your rats killed traffic sometimes if you dragged them towards the gate and warped off (remember no warp to 0 then ... a lot of traffic was 15km travel to gate)... fun times :D |

Crellion
Parental Control
8
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Posted - 2012.04.03 14:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Depends. Can a flight of salvage drones loot and salvage faster than a Marauder's tractors and salvagers? Can Marauders like the Vargur, which doesn't deploy drones that often, also take advantage of salvage drones? (A Vargur could use three tractors and let the salvage drones work on nearby wrecks thus mitigating the drone flight time while making it easier to grab all the loot on the field.)
Given the how low salvage prices have fallen and how the mineral value of the loot is normally significantly greater than the salvage, if salvage drones can't loot, then they won't be adding a lot of value. Plus, adding salvage drones will probably increase the salvage supply thus driving down prices even further.
This is all true. |

Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity Exhale.
168
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Posted - 2012.04.03 14:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Newsflash: Marauders already ARE obsolete.
^QFT |

Roh Voleto
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
109
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Posted - 2012.04.03 14:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Unless if you are in a Marauder and can get 80% of the BS cans without delaying the mission completon time ...
That's at least one targeting slot wasted on not getting rats out of your way.
Maybe I am just spoiled by the Vargur, but anything you could do on the go, even if you killed and moved much slower, would still be a waste of effort compared to looting and salvaging with a Noctis. |

Boz Wel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2012.04.03 16:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Roh Voleto wrote:Crellion wrote:Unless if you are in a Marauder and can get 80% of the BS cans without delaying the mission completon time ... That's at least one targeting slot wasted on not getting rats out of your way. Maybe I am just spoiled by the Vargur, but anything you could do on the go, even if you killed and moved much slower, would still be a waste of effort compared to looting and salvaging with a Noctis.
Call me skeptical. At least the way I run missions, you're losing money every time you return to station, leave your combat ship and begin flying around in a Noctis, because that's time you aren't spending doing additional combat missions. I tend to blitz missions with 2 accounts and don't bother salvaging/looting at all, but if I was going to, dual Marauders would be the way to do it. You don't even need to loot/salvage every single wreck in a mission with a Marauder, but you can just aim for the battleship wrecks and do the others as time permits. That way, you don't ever have any downtime where you aren't killing rats/completing missions.
On the other hand, if you leave the mission and pick up your Noctis, you're incurring additional travel time and while you loot/salvage faster, you aren't earning any bounties or mission rewards (LP being the big one) while doing it. If you want to salvage, you're much better off doing it with marauders and just doing what you can on the go. |

Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
36
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Posted - 2012.04.03 16:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
If maurauders get a slavage drone buff then they might be useful for solo l4. |

Roh Voleto
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
109
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Posted - 2012.04.03 16:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Boz Wel wrote:Roh Voleto wrote:Crellion wrote:Unless if you are in a Marauder and can get 80% of the BS cans without delaying the mission completon time ... That's at least one targeting slot wasted on not getting rats out of your way. Maybe I am just spoiled by the Vargur, but anything you could do on the go, even if you killed and moved much slower, would still be a waste of effort compared to looting and salvaging with a Noctis. Call me skeptical. At least the way I run missions, you're losing money every time you return to station, leave your combat ship and begin flying around in a Noctis, because that's time you aren't spending doing additional combat missions. I tend to blitz missions with 2 accounts and don't bother salvaging/looting at all, but if I was going to, dual Marauders would be the way to do it. You don't even need to loot/salvage every single wreck in a mission with a Marauder, but you can just aim for the battleship wrecks and do the others as time permits. That way, you don't ever have any downtime where you aren't killing rats/completing missions. On the other hand, if you leave the mission and pick up your Noctis, you're incurring additional travel time and while you loot/salvage faster, you aren't earning any bounties or mission rewards (LP being the big one) while doing it. If you want to salvage, you're much better off doing it with marauders and just doing what you can on the go.
My argument is that using a BS pilot to loot and salvage is a waste of time. Even two Marauders would be outperformed by a five day old Noctis pilot. And would be much better off just running another mission. |

Boz Wel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2012.04.03 16:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Roh Voleto wrote:Boz Wel wrote:Roh Voleto wrote:Crellion wrote:Unless if you are in a Marauder and can get 80% of the BS cans without delaying the mission completon time ... That's at least one targeting slot wasted on not getting rats out of your way. Maybe I am just spoiled by the Vargur, but anything you could do on the go, even if you killed and moved much slower, would still be a waste of effort compared to looting and salvaging with a Noctis. Call me skeptical. At least the way I run missions, you're losing money every time you return to station, leave your combat ship and begin flying around in a Noctis, because that's time you aren't spending doing additional combat missions. I tend to blitz missions with 2 accounts and don't bother salvaging/looting at all, but if I was going to, dual Marauders would be the way to do it. You don't even need to loot/salvage every single wreck in a mission with a Marauder, but you can just aim for the battleship wrecks and do the others as time permits. That way, you don't ever have any downtime where you aren't killing rats/completing missions. On the other hand, if you leave the mission and pick up your Noctis, you're incurring additional travel time and while you loot/salvage faster, you aren't earning any bounties or mission rewards (LP being the big one) while doing it. If you want to salvage, you're much better off doing it with marauders and just doing what you can on the go. My argument is that using a BS pilot to loot and salvage is a waste of time. Even two Marauders would be outperformed by a five day old Noctis pilot. And would be much better off just running another mission.
Except your argument ignores the possibility of salvaging only while there are rats alive/objectives to complete and then leaving once the mission is completed. You might not get all of the salvage, but you will get a lot of it and you will have no wasted travel time. Salvage tends to be a pretty small part of your total mission income anyways if you're getting a good isk/LP ratio, so I wouldn't waste any time with a dedicated salvager. I think you're much better off using any account you are actively using to pilot a combat ship. |

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1443
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Posted - 2012.04.03 16:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Roh Voleto wrote: How salvage drones will affect Marauders? Not at all. We live in the age of the Noctis. There is simply no situation where staying and salvaging is more profitable than simply moving on and killing more rats/running more missions. ... My argument is that using a BS pilot to loot and salvage is a waste of time. Even two Marauders would be outperformed by a five day old Noctis pilot. And would be much better off just running another mission.
You honestly believe that 2 marauders is going to be outperformed by a faction BS and a noctis. Oh man, look how stupid you are.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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IGNATIUS HOOD
Zephyr Corp Black Thorne Alliance
296
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Posted - 2012.04.03 19:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Newsflash: Marauders already ARE obsolete.
So obsolete they cost 800+ million to buy.  'perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim'
Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you. |

Skorpynekomimi
Omega Vector
165
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Posted - 2012.04.03 19:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Had a conversation about this very subject while missioning earlier.
Conclusions: - Salvage drones won't make marauders any more obsolete than the Noctis already did. - It's a BS with half the ammo usage, higher resists, and a better tank. It's not obsolete. - UTILITY HIGHSLOTS. Drone modules. An auto-targeter. Anything you waaant. |

nahjustwarpin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.04.03 19:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
IGNATIUS HOOD wrote:Tobiaz wrote:Newsflash: Marauders already ARE obsolete. So obsolete they cost 800+ million to buy. 
it's because of material cost and not market demand. |

Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
98
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Posted - 2012.04.04 03:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
IGNATIUS HOOD wrote:Tobiaz wrote:Newsflash: Marauders already ARE obsolete. So obsolete they cost 800+ million to buy. 
Why do you think the faction hulls cost +1bil ..... Because they are actually wanted.
Marauders just have high buildcost. |

Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
124
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Posted - 2012.04.04 04:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
Why should they?
My Paladin fit is 4 Tach + 2 Tractor + 1 Salvage + 5 Med + 5 small drones After this I can use 4 Tach + 3 Tractor + 5 Salvage + 5 small drones
Marauders don't have a Salvage but a Tractor beam bonus ;). Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |

Argaral
The Riot Formation Get Off My Lawn
39
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Posted - 2012.04.04 04:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Roh Voleto wrote: How salvage drones will affect Marauders? Not at all. We live in the age of the Noctis. There is simply no situation where staying and salvaging is more profitable than simply moving on and killing more rats/running more missions. ... My argument is that using a BS pilot to loot and salvage is a waste of time. Even two Marauders would be outperformed by a five day old Noctis pilot. And would be much better off just running another mission.
You honestly believe that 2 marauders is going to be outperformed by a faction BS and a noctis.  Oh man, look how stupid you are. -Liang
Hmmm, I would potentially argue this point. I went from rattlesnake/noctis combo to rattlesnake/paladin. The added dps is quite a boon while nothing is outside of range for the Paladins tractors. However, I would imagine a nightmare/noctis combo would perform better though. A rattlesnake/paladin would be a better AFK option however with assigning its drones to the rattlesnake. and perma running its tank while only targeting bs's when needed.
A much larger isk investment in the 2nd ship however as well as an increase in skill point training time. |

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1452
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Posted - 2012.04.04 04:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Argaral wrote: Hmmm, I would potentially argue this point. I went from rattlesnake/noctis combo to rattlesnake/paladin. The added dps is quite a boon while nothing is outside of range for the Paladins tractors. However, I would imagine a nightmare/noctis combo would perform better though. A rattlesnake/paladin would be a better AFK option however with assigning its drones to the rattlesnake. and perma running its tank while only targeting bs's when needed.
A much larger isk investment in the 2nd ship however as well as an increase in skill point training time.
Why were you using a Rattlesnake with that much gank on the field? You should have been using relatively mobile Marauders with fairly light tanks. I ran a CNR + Tach Abaddon for a while and the only tank they had was a couple of resist mods and medium RR drones from the other ship.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Argaral
The Riot Formation Get Off My Lawn
39
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Posted - 2012.04.04 04:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
Why were you using a Rattlesnake with that much gank on the field?
-Liang
Laziness. After a few years I've become that bored with missioning. Rattlesnake for heavy tank. The marauder had a relatively light tank though. Focus firing targets however means the bs's pop about as fast as I can salvage them. while the Paladins drones take out frigates and cruisers.
It's nearly a no brainer in high sec and with simple t2 fits, I'm usually never a target for the gank squad as they make no money. So I loot, salvage and shoot in relatively quick peace with good LP per hour. Pays for the accounts in a week anyway |

Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1452
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Posted - 2012.04.04 05:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Well it sounds like you're content with your approach. Heavy LP approaches will always value gank over looting and salvaging, which means that you'd be even better with a pair of faction BS (probably Machs for the align time). A pair of Marauders becomes dramatically superior once looting and/or salvaging matters to you (Drones, FW, Sleepers, etc).
Basically, the question you need to ask yourself is whether the Noctis earns more ISK/hr than a second gank BS/Marauder/Tengu in either that mission or running wholly separate missions. When you start looking at dual marauders, the question becomes whether the Noctis coming along and looting 1-2 battleships and a some frigs/cruisers is likely to make more than the extra DPS from the second Marauder.
The answer is almost certainly no.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
40
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Posted - 2012.04.06 00:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Roh Voleto wrote:Crellion wrote:Unless if you are in a Marauder and can get 80% of the BS cans without delaying the mission completon time ... That's at least one targeting slot wasted on not getting rats out of your way. Maybe I am just spoiled by the Vargur, but anything you could do on the go, even if you killed and moved much slower, would still be a waste of effort compared to looting and salvaging with a Noctis.
Looting and salvaging with a noctis itself is already a waste. Instead of looting with that noctis that toon could do something productive like making more stuff that will not be looted and salvaged at all. |

Crellion
Parental Control
8
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Posted - 2012.04.06 06:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
Roh Voleto wrote:Boz Wel wrote:Roh Voleto wrote:Crellion wrote:Unless if you are in a Marauder and can get 80% of the BS cans without delaying the mission completon time ... That's at least one targeting slot wasted on not getting rats out of your way. Maybe I am just spoiled by the Vargur, but anything you could do on the go, even if you killed and moved much slower, would still be a waste of effort compared to looting and salvaging with a Noctis. Call me skeptical. At least the way I run missions, you're losing money every time you return to station, leave your combat ship and begin flying around in a Noctis, because that's time you aren't spending doing additional combat missions. I tend to blitz missions with 2 accounts and don't bother salvaging/looting at all, but if I was going to, dual Marauders would be the way to do it. You don't even need to loot/salvage every single wreck in a mission with a Marauder, but you can just aim for the battleship wrecks and do the others as time permits. That way, you don't ever have any downtime where you aren't killing rats/completing missions. On the other hand, if you leave the mission and pick up your Noctis, you're incurring additional travel time and while you loot/salvage faster, you aren't earning any bounties or mission rewards (LP being the big one) while doing it. If you want to salvage, you're much better off doing it with marauders and just doing what you can on the go. My argument is that using a BS pilot to loot and salvage is a waste of time. Even two Marauders would be outperformed by a five day old Noctis pilot. And would be much better off just running another mission.
Doing it wrong. Two characters = Marauder + DPS ship. Everyday of the week will outperform DPS ship + Noctis. |

Crellion
Parental Control
8
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Posted - 2012.04.06 06:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Well it sounds like you're content with your approach. Heavy LP approaches will always value gank over looting and salvaging, which means that you'd be even better with a pair of faction BS (probably Machs for the align time). A pair of Marauders becomes dramatically superior once looting and/or salvaging matters to you (Drones, FW, Sleepers, etc).
Basically, the question you need to ask yourself is whether the Noctis earns more ISK/hr than a second gank BS/Marauder/Tengu in either that mission or running wholly separate missions. When you start looking at dual marauders, the question becomes whether the Noctis coming along and looting 1-2 battleships and a some frigs/cruisers is likely to make more than the extra DPS from the second Marauder.
The answer is almost certainly no.
-Liang
QFT but I would add that in my experience even normal missions from the navies (some of those) have more isk in the BS cans than in the LPs and bounties.
To put in other words what Liang has said so succntly that perhaps I shouldn't, using Marauder as a DPS ship allows you to get 80% of the cans without added time. If you know which cans to get and cba to micromanage a bit the target slots the income that a Noctis would get after you have warped out on to the next mission is so ridiculously small that comparing it with another Tengu/DPS BS/faction BS/Marauder for the second char is moot.
I tend to favor Tank&Gank Marauder + Gank Marauder or Gank Marauder + Tank&Gank Tengu just to be able to relax a bit more in the high dps missions (i.e. Smash the supplier, AE bonus etc.).
I have refrained from using a Golem in missions but paired with another Marauder with RR or cap transfer I might try it... Perhaps Paladin & Golem... as it would allow 3 painters without creating tank concerns... |
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